Malcolm Beck Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: Mr. Beck would you please tell us what you're doing here with the tomato plants?1:22 - 2201MB: Well, this web is called grow web and it solved a big problem for me. In this part of the country now we have viruses, tobacco mosaic virus, curly top virus and stuff like that and tomato plants because of breeding them up and not, you know, taking care of them, they're susceptible to it-highly susceptible to it. And when that plant is little there will be an insect out there feeding on the plant that's n-kin to the tomato plant and they'll have that virus, but it's a native plant so it doesn't bother it. Well, this tomato tastes better than that weed out there so that little insect comes over here and feeds on this tomato. When he 2:06 - 2201does that he inoculates that plant with that virus and if you inoculate that plant with that virus its production is shut down and it just never does any good. Well, I found out I can put this web over tomato plants as soon as I set it out and put a lot of compost around it before I put the web over it. Well, the plant don't get that virus and in fact it doesn't get any insects because no insect can get under there, but it-it gives you so many other benefits. It'll give you two or three or four degrees frost protection. Also, it slows the wind down. If the wind gets over 15 miles an hour a plant is stressed and it stops growing. Well, that can't happen under here and it diffuses the sunlight where you get photosynthesis all over the plant and then too, as that compost under there is decayingit's giving off a lot of 2:51 - 2201carbon dioxide. Well, now you're concentrating the carden-carbon dioxide under that plant, you're keeping the wind off, you're diffusing the sunlight so the sun ain't too intense on one spot, you get photosynthesis all over the plant. So, it's all of these things. The plant can grow three times faster and produce three times more. That's how beneficial it is and the lady that was trying to sell it to me-she was telling me it would give you frost protection. That's all she had. And I said, "Well, I'll try it." You know, we all (inaudible). Boy, I found out that this stuff-it is a miracle product.

DT: Without using herbicides or...3:26 - 2201MB: I don't have to use anything and it took me a while, but I got Dr. Gary Parsons with the extension service. He's a vegetable specialist. He tested it. Now if you get real cloudy weather and you're in the shade, it won't make the plant grow faster, but it still gives you all the other benefits even if you don't get the sunlight. But in the full sun all the time it works miracles. Dr. Gary Parson said that the greatest tool that has ever come along for the home gardener if they use it right-that's what he thinks of it. Now if you turn around and you see plants back...(Misc.)

DT: Could you tell us about the Purple Martins and why you have this nest out here?4:54 - 2201MB: Well, I love Purple Martins. That's one reason I got the nest there. Purple martins are very beneficial besides being beautiful and being so beneficial. The only thing they eat is insects they catch while flying and Purple Martins love people. You can put a martin house out there away where they don't get a chance to see people and you'll very seldom get Martins in them. You need to put a purple martin house where they can see people. They're a social bird and they're the masters of-of flight or gliding. You just can't say enough good things about Purple Martins. I just love them and they sound good also. (Birds singing)5:43 - 2201MB: Oh, you didn't show the tomato plants that I've taken c-a web off of. I've got some big beautiful ones down here I've taken the web off (inaudible). Those are all old heirlooms that we got started too late. (Inaudible). (Birds singing)

DT: Mr. Beck, can you tell us about how these tomato plants have benefited from your grow web?6:25 - 2201MB: Well, it-it got them a great start. Now they have no diseases, no insects or anything and I waited until the tomato plant was touching the grow web all around it and when I took it off-actually I was two days late because it was doing this under it, but it only took one day and this is-was just a week ago-just a week ago this tomato plant was all on this grow end, down here and look at the blooms on it. Looks like it's beginning to do-it gave it a great start.

DT: Mr. Beck, can you tell us about this compost pile you've got going?7:05 - 2201MB: Well, you know we make thousands of cubic yards of compost, but we need a home garden compost operation and I like this one because it's cheap. You just go to a hardware store and get you some wire like this-three to four foot tall at the most and get about a 12 or 14 foot piece and bring it around and just pin it together and then start throwing your material in there. But you always need to start out with a bunch of dry carbon material to start out with if you can. Now if you put too much thick heavy green stuff in there or vegetable waste at one time it can begin to stink. So, you need to have a bunch of dry carbon material like dried leaves, dried hay, sawdust or something like that. So, when you start 7:43 - 2201bringing out or you bring the kitchen scraps out and you got a lot of green grass you can blend it with it because that'll keep it from matting together and keep it from ever going-ever getting stinky. And I do this real simple. I never ever turn the pile. I just keep adding and this will collect a year's supply of what I pulled out of the garden here because it's constantly settling and then after one year the bottom, 10 or 12 inches, will be beautiful black compost and the higher up you get-actually what I'll do is I'll take this wire away early next spring, say February, and I'll just move it to the side. Before it was right here-last year, it was right there. And then there'll be a whole bunch of stuff on the top and along the sides that's not decomposed, but in the very center of it you'll have almost a 8:30 - 2201pyramid-shaped cone that's beautiful black humus that you had to do nothing. It'll be full of earthworms. It-it was no work or nothing. You just throw it out there, but the main thing is you need that black carbon material to-in case you put a lot of wet or green stuff. Now if a bird dies or a chicken dies I'll bury it here. If a chicken got-I can bury it down in the middle here-way down in the middle if you got-and dogs won't get to it because of the microbial activity-eats it up in four days. If you dig down in here you find all types of stuff. See, here's some old prickly pear, but you see here it's already turning moldy. Look at this mold. See the fungi eating it up and there's no smell. I even got prickly pear leaves in here and the thorns are already pretty well gone off. Of course, that didn't have many thorns. And I got all kinds of life and pill bugs and grubs and everything feeding on it. That's all 9:24 - 2201part of it. They chomp it up and their excrete-they're manure is really the compost, believe it or not. Anyway, it's just an easy way of doing it. You can have the barrels that you turn or fancier, but it's going to rot whether you want it to or not. That's the simplest way I can explain it and you put it in a pile, let it rot, don't let the wind blow it around. Make it simple. Don't put a lot of energy into it. Everything goes in here. You see feathers, corncobs, that was bamboo, and you kind of got to keep it around the sides so water can be run through the middle. If you keep piling the middle, the water wants to run to the outside. That's just a simple trick.

DW: (Inaudible), where's there anything you had to prepare for the base underneath it?10:09 - 2201MB: No, you want to just put it on there-the soil and then as it decomposes the earthworms work their way up in it with time. You need nothing under it. And-see this-right there where those tomatoes are now is where this thing was last year and I just spread it out on the ground. And first I rake away the raw stuff that was on top and around the sides a little bit and I put it back in the pile for the bottom. Real simple. DT: Do you want to show us your greenhouse?10:43 - 2201MB: Yeah.DT: You tell us (inaudible).10:49 - 2201

MB: Well, let me see. Oh, look at that old tractor tire. Did you ever see a raised bed like that? Now you could paint that and make it pretty. Take a tractor tire and turn it inside out.DT: Have you ever been to the Kerr [Center] Ranch in Oklahoma?11:09 - 2201MB: No-turn them inside out.DT: For cattle.11:12 - 2201MB: Well, that would make-oh, yeah. Great for cattle troughs, but see this is nothing toxic. You can run into it with a car, bump it with the lawnmower. It's never going to rot away. Termites won't eat it and before I did it I got with EPA and TNRCC [Texas Natural Resources Conservation Commission] to make sure nothing toxic leaks out of it. I got some fire ants in there but I'll just pour some molasses in there and chase them out.

DT: Mr. Beck, can you tell us about this orange tree here and what it represents to you?11:45 - 2201MB: Actually, it's a tangerine called Changsha tangerine. It came from China and it takes cold weather, but I found out I can even help keep it from freezing if it really gets cold by using paramagnetic minerals and compost. In my first research on that paramagnetic rock or read a book, Paramagnetism. Dr. Phil Callahan wrote it. And so I went and got some granite, basalt and lava and I mixed it all together and I put a little green sand in it too. That's an ocean deposit or lake deposit. And I had about, oh, about four gallons of this stuff 12:15 - 2201and I put out four tomato plants in the garden real early in the season. I put about a-almost a gallon under each plant with a lot of compost and those plants are about so tall when I put them out when they were up this tall and blooming and looking beautiful, they predicted a freeze. It got down to 28 degrees with a sustained wind. Well, other people had had out tomato plants. A lot of people covered theirs, some didn't, but every tomato plant within miles around here was froze black to the ground. Those four tomato plants that I had that paramagnetic mineral around it with the compost out in the open, not covered, were completely untouched. There was no evidence whatsoever there was a freeze in those four 12:57 - 2201tomato plants. So, I did that with olive trees. The Olive Growers Association gave me 22 trees and I planted seven of them here and I gave the rest around to the neighbors. Well, I put the paramagnetic rock and a lot of compost around mine and it got down to 16 degrees. Well, all the olive trees in the neighborhood, this was in '99, died-dead-gone. My olive trees are virtually untouched. Well, this year I didn't put the compost to the olive trees and mine got hurt a little bit from a freeze. It was down to 17-16 degrees again, but what it is when you use the paramagnetic rock, that's a mineral source and it has a low level of 13:40 - 2201energy in it and that stimulates root hair activity and it stimulates microbial activity and if you got the compost there, then you have the energy. So, you load the-the-plants up-the sap in the plant is full of-full of sugars-carbohydrates and minerals and when it's really concentrated with sugars and minerals it has a much, much lower freezing point such as salt water. See salt water freezes about 26 degrees. Fresh water-fresh water freezes at 32. So, that's what we're doing. We're lowering the freezing point four, five or six degrees or more and it makes the plant a lot healthier and immune to insects and diseases.

14:13 - 201DT: What do you mean by paramagnetic?14:16 - 2201MB: Well, paramagnetism means it's almost magnetic and a dictionary or a chemistry in a dictionary or physics will tell you something is paramagnetic if-when you put it in a magnetic field, the atoms in it line up like a marching band. Well, I asked a physicist, "How can you see them?" He said, "We don't see them." I said, "Well, how do you know they're lining up?" He said, "Well, if you put this product under x-ray, we can see the shadows. The shadows change." Well, that means this product is paramagnetic. It don't necessarily have to have parac metal in it to be paramagnetic. And things are made 14:54 - 2201paramagnetic with high heat and then cooling slow and I found out that ceramic and porcelain-commodes are paramagnetic, believe it or not, bricks, ashes and basalt, lava and granite. They're paramagnetic. However, this paramagnetism-it-it dissipates when exposed to the elements, but that time is measured in centuries-centuries. My first test was lava rock. I couldn't make it work and somebody called me and asked me my-my thoughts on using paramagnetic lava sand and I said, "Well, I can't make it work." So, I-I think it was A&M-published a bulletin-said Malcolm Beck said it don't work. Well, I said, "I could make it work." Well, I called to scold him from the guy that was making it work and he said, "Well, maybe Beck your product is not paramagnetic." So, I-I bought one of 15:49 - 2201these machines that s-measures the paramagnetism and surely the lava sand I was using wasn't paramagnetic. And he sent me some he was using that was reading like 12 or 1400 on-on this machine. So, now I've found products around that's like four and five and six thousand. Well, I found out when I went up to Enchanted Rock, above Fredericksburg, a big, big granite dome and I was taking the chippings off of the outer edge and I put them under this meter and they're barely paramagnetic. They're up there like 200, which it could be higher. Then I went down to the creek bottom and got some old decayed stuff that's been exposed for years. They wasn't paramagnetic at all. Then I went to a quarry next door-it was several miles down the road, where they were cutting the big granite rocks 16:42 - 2201and when they handling these big granite chunks, you know, they weigh tons and tons. When they set them down, they chip them. Well, I got some of the granite from the inside of the boulder. It was highly paramagnetic. So, it loses its paramagnetism as it is exposed to the elements. Well, like I say that's measured in-in centuries.

DT: Why does some paramagnetic mineral have some value in the garden?17:06 - 2201MB: Well, that-that is an energy. It's a magnetic energy and-and that stimulates cell activity, microbial activity, cell growth-we don't really know what it does. And some people say, "No, it's only the minerals." Well, I did another test to see if was a paramagnetism. I got 16 one gallon containers and put potting soil in them and put rye seed in each. One of them-I took two pieces of water hose that was about an inch in diameter. It was clear hose. And I filled one side with paramagnetic rock-highly paramagnetic, it was 5000 and on the other side with limestone, which was diamagnetic and I put them-and I corked the ends so nothing could escape and the roots couldn't get to it. And I put this around the outside of that pot, one pot, and I had 16-15 controls. Well, that pot with that 17:50 - 2201energy field around it now grew about 20 % better-bigger, better root system and everything and I did it numerous times down in the greenhouse. And I found out this can even be detrimental if it's used wrong. A friend of mine wanted to do some research for me in a apple orchard. So, he came out and he got a lot of my paramagnetic rock and he put 5 pounds, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and 35 pounds around apple trees that were already in existence. The trees were one year old. Well, guess what? The more paramagnetic material he put there, they went down hill. I mean it just stair-stepped right down. The last two it killed 'em. 18:38 - 2201So, I said, "Uh oh, what's going on here?" So, I went up and I dug those two trees that died and I dug down a hole. Now he laid this stuff right on top of the ground. He didn't work it into the soil. He laid it on top of the ground and he had this highly paramagnetic material laying this thick-so big around-three-foot diameter around that tree. And anyway, I moved all that aside and I dug down and I found a red rock down there and I chipped it loose with a crowbar and I put it in the meter and it was highly paramagnetic. So, I had a positive paramagnetic-positive paramagnetic and I had a bad energy field between. I had a positive and positive. So, I blended all that into the soil-all that paramagnetic rock so it was all the way down to the rock and replaced those trees. Now those trees are 19:21 - 2201outgrowing the rest. So, see if you-you got to watch what you're dong. Here it works great because all of our subsoil below this soil is limestone and we can use highly paramagnetic on top and diamagnetic at the bottom. And so I got the-the proper energy field. Now that's a whole new science. There's a whole lot of research needed to be done on it. (Misc.)19:46 - 2201MB: He'll come back in the company.DT: Yeah.19:50 - 2201MB: And one of my-my oldest son-he's-he's a fanatic constitutionalist, Bible student and...

DT: Mr. Beck, we're standing in front of a Concord grape vine. Can you tell us what you're doing here?20:05 - 2201MB: Well, they were given to me so I had to plant them. The extension service said, "Hey, two years they'd be dead. Pierce's disease would kill them." Well, that was six or eight years ago. Well anyway, at one time I had a vineyard here and I had all the recommended varieties, but the birds got all the grapes. You-when you put them out on these little wires and you expose them, the birds get all the grapes. Well, I came up with an idea. If I grow this vine up and make it like a big umbrella maybe the birds wouldn't find them. Guess 20:31 - 2201what? The birds never get a single grape. And they said, "Oh, you can't do that because they get diseases." But they don't get diseases. Every grape is perfect and they make great wine. There's something else I'm trying. I ha-I hate to weed around them. You don't want to let the weeds grow around so I'm putting decayed granite and tapping it tight. Now that decayed granite is full of minerals that this grape vine likes. That decayed granite is porous there and the water goes through it, but the design of it-weeds just can't run roots-they-it-it-because it's sharp or something the weeds can't push through. So, 21:13 - 2201it-it's like a paved area that breathes and feeds the plant, but it keeps the weeds away. So, I-I solved the bird problem and I solved a weed problem and by keeping the plants healthy, paramagnetic rock compost, and keeping the-the-mow around-you just want to mow. You don't want to ever plow. You disturb the roots. They're right on top of the ground. The trees don't get diseases. So, they live here just as well as they do in New York, although, it's a New York grape.DT: (Inaudible)MB: Use to. I don't have time anymore. Yeah, I use to make a lot of wine. My-my Dad made it.

DT: Mr. Beck, can you tell us about the compost operation?21:47 - 2201MB: Well, this operation is probably a little different from a lot of them you've seen. You notice we've just got big piles, no windrows. What we do is bring the products in here, which is stable bedding with sawdust and hay and horse manure and get a lot of vegetable waste and (?) manure and ground up paper and what have you, anything organic. Anyway, we-we blend it and make sure we've got enough moisture in it when we build a pile and then we push the pile up as high as we can. We push them up 13, 14 foot high and then leave that pile. Leave it alone for two months and it absorbs the annual rain and that gives 22:20 - 2201us enough moisture. We never have to water our piles. Our average rainfall here is right at 30 inches. Some years we may get 40, which is still-it's not too much, but if we only get 15 or 20 we still make compost. And after two months we will turn the pile and get the outside to the inside and we do that on purpose and we won't-this compost won't be ready for six, seven, possible eight months. And we do that on purpose because there's a lot of wood in it. Now if you keep turning the pile (inaudible)in a windrow, fungi is what breaks the hard, the wood, the high carbon material 22:52 - 2201down. The bacteria feed on the nitrogen material. Well, if you keep using (inaudible) you keep on disturbing the fungi and chopping it apart. The bacteria eat up the fungal threads and pretty soon you have composted, broken down all the proteins, all the nitrogen materials, but your wood material is still hard. It never got composted. Well, if do the static pile method and keep it a little bit high on the carbon side you'll never have a anaerobic smell. You'll never run out of oxygen because it-it works. I've been doing it this for all my life and I've never had a problem with it and it's a simple-it's a lot less energy-free and we got one man back there doing all this operation-big operation, 26 acres here. One man 23:35 - 2201with one big tractor, that's all. And the trucks come back here and then they haul it to different places. Haul it up to the front, we screen it and blend other things into it, whatever. No windrow turners. It's a real inexpensive way to make-inexpensive way to make compost, but a lot of people say, "Yeah, but look how long it takes you." Well, hey, I only had one waiting period. That was the first one. You see, every day we bring in 250, 300 cubic yards of material to compost. Well, I had that first seven-month waiting period. From then on, I've got compost to sell every day. It's never on-no more waiting periods and it 24:06 - 2201takes up way less room than a whole bunch of small windrows. And windrow turners are real expensive to run and when you're through with it there's no market for it. The big loaders we use-anybody can use that on any construction job. So, it's a simple way to make compost. It's nature's way to make compost. We let it rot. We give it time. We don't keep disturbing it. It works. Had one of the topsoil microbiologists in the country to test compost. She says, "Malcolm, you got the best compost." She came to that conclusion. I didn't know her at the time when she came to that conclusion because we let the fungi do their share too.

24:47 - 2201DT: Now how do you know when it's ready?24:50 - 2201MB: Okay. That is a real good way to test compost-is what you do-you roll the sleeve up on this hand and you stick this hand in your pocket and you go dig into the pile deep as you can, it may still be hot in there, and you pull some compost out and you smell of it. If it smells rank, it ain't ready. If-you might smell a little bit of ammonia and you're not sure well then you-you go off-get away from the pile and smell both hands and-and you're still not sure, well go ahead and wash the hand real good. Wash both hands and then go to the office and preferably let a woman smell both hands. If there's-the hands smell the 25:26 - 2201same, it's ready. You never want to sell compost unless all that protein is completely digested. And that's how you tell. You don't use instruments. Your nose, your eye is the best instrument you can use when you're making compost. The smell test, if it smells bad it ain't ready. If it smells like the earth, it's great. It may still have a little ammonia smell, but if you wash your hand and it all washes away, well then it's ready. You don't want to sell stinky compost. It's as simple as that. But you don't want to sell compost that is completely rotted away either because then you don't have any activity left to put in your soil. Just get the smell out of it then you can grow plants in it.

DW: (Inaudible) What happened when you tried to make an arrangement with the City of San Antonio involving this?26:19 - 2201MB: Oh, all right. It wasn't this particular compost. Are you ready?DT: Yeah.26:25 - 2201MB: The City of San Antonio decided they needed to use their bio solids and their tree trimmings to make compost. So, I helped them-told them the best way I-you know what they could do. Anyway, they designed a big-well, I even wanted to do it for them, but they wouldn't let me do that. They wanted to do it. So, they built this big, big beautiful pad. I mean the best and they bought the windrow turner and read all the books. Well, they made pretty good compost except they made it for about six or seven years and they were losing money. They just-a municipality just can't sell, you know, I guess you don't have 26:52 - 2201the incentive or something. They just couldn't do it. So, about-it's been a little over a year ago now, the City called me and they said, "Malcolm, we're going to shut this compost operation down. It's costing us too much money. We're losing money on it." But they said, "Do you want us to keep it open for a little while yet?" One of the-the big shots up there said he had enough money in one of his funds to keep it alive and I said, "By all means keep it open." Well, I went to the people that were in the process of buying my company and I said, "Hey, we can take over the city's yard. I think they'll let us have it." So, they said, "Oh boy, we want it." So, I called them and I told them-I said, "We'd like to bid on it." They said, "Okay, we'll keep it and we'll put out the bids." And of course we got the 27:30 - 2201bid because we had the experience. And now they had some 40,000 cubic yards piled up trying to sell it. We sold all that in about four months. We're low on material. We can't even make it fast enough. We got three big compost yards and if you know how to make compost and if you've used it, then you know how to sell it. That's about what it amounts to, but you have to have an incentive to sell it, I guess you would say.

DT: You mentioned bio solids and I'm curious if you can explain what the value and risks are in bio solids. I know that organic agriculture is...DT: Mr. Beck, you're involved in-in composting bio solids and I understand that there's a controversy in organic agriculture about whether this is a proper material to-to use in the field. I'm curious...28:31 - 2201MB: Well, let me put it this way. The Asians have maintained soil fertility for-for 40 centuries because they don't have hang-ups. They've used human waste in agriculture. We wore out farm after farm in this country in less than two years because we won't use it. All of our best farmland is growing the food we eat and that has to be recycled back to the land. We can't get around that because it has to go back to the land, but it's going in the landfills somewhere. So, it needs to be processed and if it's processed through the sewer plant and then composted with wood chips and gone through a heat and composted 29:04 - 2201properly, it is as clean as any compost anywhere. Let me mention this. The human protein molecule is probably the most perfect fertilizer on earth. Let me tell you how I discovered that. While I was selling the composted bio solids and the lon-the lawn care people found out, "Boy, this stuff really makes the lawn grow and you cut way back on the water, no diseases and no insects wherever you use bio solid compost." And they said, "But this stuff is kinda nasty to spread and when it's dry it's dusty and dirty when it's wet it won't go through a spreader." So, I had owned a big feed mill downtown-had a pelleting mill and so I screened out some of the finest prettiest black bio solid compost I had. This was old stuff I had around-boy, it just smelled like the forest floor and I ran it through that pelting dye 29:52 - 2201and I had the prettiest black pellets you ever saw. Boy, I'm seeing dollar signs. Man I'm going to get rich. Well, after about a week or so that stuff started stinking. I had it stored in some paper bags outside of my office about 60 feet away. About three weeks it stunk so bad you couldn't get near that stuff. So, I opened and lifted those bags and you couldn't see the product. Every type of microbe, fungi, algae, bacteria in the world was feeding on it. Well, everybody I talked to-they couldn't answer that question. I talked to every-every man this part of state that I figured knew something about that. Nobody could answer that. It so happened, when I was up in Steven Point, Wisconsin-I went to visit a friend of mine over in Cannon Falls, Minnesota and he was doing pelletized turkey manure. Well, he couldn't answer it, 30:24 - 2201but his microbiologist was there and that microbiologist explained it this way. He said the higher in the food chain you go the more complex the protein molecules. We're at the top of the food chain. The human protein molecule is almost like plastic. It's immune to destruction. It's a very complex protein and he says the only way you can hydrolyze the human protein molecule is with heat and pressure simultaneously. That's what I had with the pelleting dye. Extreme pressure was generated-high temperatures. I broke open the human protein molecule. Now the microbes were having a field day. Anyway, this guy 31:09 - 2201explained then-he says, "That's the elite of fertilizers." That's the elite of microbe food. When they get through with it-he says, "There is no better fertilizer on earth." And that's why we should be using bio solids. Well, I had my compost all tested by Trinity University for pathogens. We tried to get compost on athletic fields and the-the school board said, "Oh no, we can't let our kids play in compost. They'll get infections or diseases." Anyway, my employee was out trying to sell it and he went to another school-suggest they put compost on the athletic field because it grows a big thick beautiful turf, cut back on irrigation, the kids don't get hurt playing on it. They-they said, "Oh no, our kids can't play in compost. They'll get infections and diseases." Well, this employee asked though, he 31:53 - 2201said, "Well, is it all right to let those kids play in diazinon, orothene, dursban, 2-4-D?" They had no answer. So happened, I knew Dr. Rex Moyer at Trinity University, top professor over there, a biologist and asked him if he could test compost. He said, "Malcolm," he says, "Trinity can do that test but it's a long test-several months, eight or nine months. It could cost you three thousand dollars or better." I said, "Let's do it." Well, after we was into the test two months he called me and wanted to know if I'd ever seen insects in my compost pile. I said, "Well, no. It gets too hot." He said, "Well, the reason I asked," he said, "28 % of the microbes he's isolating out are well known microbes that are pathogenic to troublesome insects keeps them in control." That's why the people that put compost on 32:34 - 2201their lawn never have grubs, chinch bugs, fleas or ticks and even the fire ants stay away if you use the compost often. Well, Dr. Moyer called me later and he says, "You know, Beck, you got some valuable stuff in that compost pile." I said, "Well, I try to tell people that." He said, "What I'm getting at now," he says, "Another 18 % of microbes he's isolating out are well known microbes that industry uses to break down toxic materials. You can't break it down anywhere else. The microbes can disassemble anything we put together to give them the environment to work in." Well, when the test was over with he gave me a stack of 33:13 - 2201papers this thick and I said, "Dr. Moyer you've got to summarize this." He summarized it on one page. He said there were no frank pathogens found in any of the four compost I gave him. None. I said, "Well, what's a frank compost?" He said, "A frank microbe is a microbe that would be pathogenic to man, plant or animal. He said a lot of microbes there, but they're all beneficials.(airplane)MB: Sorry.DT: No, no. That's all right.MB: Next time I'll call Randolph [Air Force Base]. Do you want to go through that again?DT: I think if you just pick it up from the results...MB: Huh?DT: I think if you just pick it up from what you were saying about the results.34:02 - 2201MB: Oh, the results? All right. Whereabouts was that? Oh, after the test was-when he was into the test or the very end?DT: After the test.

34:14 - 2201MB: Right. When Dr. Moyer was finally through with the test there was a stack of paper three eighths of an inch thick and I asked him to summarize it so I wouldn't have to read all that stuff. And he summarized it on one page. He said there were no frank pathogens found in any of the four composts we gave him. He says though, they're loaded with microbes, but they're the decomposers and opportunistic microbes. He said there's not a microbe in any of these composts. I gave him four different types at four different ages. He said there was no microbes in there that would be pathogenic to man, plant or animal. They're only beneficials. And I talked-I talked to Dr. Gerald Johnson up at Texas A & M, pathologist and he told me the same thing. He says, "The harmful pathogens can't compete with the decomposers." In a good compost pile, the decomposers that break things down, disassemble them, destroy any harmful pathogens. So, and as far as the toxins go that's in bio solids, you see you got another 18 % of the microbes that degrade toxic material. So, the best place for it is in the compost pile back on the land because the human protein molecule is the elite of fertilizers. There is none better.

DW: So, do you think the schools will go ahead and adopt a (?) now or no?35:23 - 2201MB: Well, yes with that study-with that study we got it on two football fields in San Antonio. Well, the state of Texas offers two Class five A state championships. That's the big schools. Well, guess what? Those two schools won Class five A state championships the same year. The first two schools in the area to have compost and the compost had a lot to do with it. One day the football coach and the soccer coach was walking across the football field and the soccer coach commented and said, "Boy, what are you doing to this turf? It's like walking on a big thick carpet." And the football coach told him-he said, "Well, we're putting compost on it a quarter inch at a time twice the year." The soccer coach said, "Man, I need that." So, he put compost on his soccer field and a year later he 36:02 - 2201called our office in talking to my-my athlete that worked here. He said, "Paul, I've been coaching soccer all of my adult life and this is the first year ever I did not have a single knee injury or shin split." And both coaches said they cut way back on irrigation and-and then the football coach said, "Well, yeah, I too. We don't have any injuries when we're playing on our own field." So, you see there's other benefits of composting your lawn. DT: (Inaudible)36:32 - 2201MB: Why can't you do it here? They compost in l-in Canada-everywhere. DT: (Inaudible)36:37 - 2201

MB: Do static piles, windrows. You're too small. You keep disturbing the fungi. You wouldn't never-never digest. Dry compost that's done with a windrow turner-throw it up in the air, a lot of dust flows out and a lot of hard pieces of wood chips hit the ground. Ours, you let it dry and throw it in the air-they're all successful and I know a whole lot of people that failed trying to make compost in a wind row. Because in this environment you keep drying it out. You can't keep it wet. You're pumping water and (?) its mostly carbon, dead leaves, dead twigs, dead branches, dead roots, what have you. How much nitrogen is 37:09 - 2201there? Just a little bit what the rabbit came by and dropped manure and the bird dropped manure, maybe the coyote peed on it or something. See, there's not much nitrogen. You-you compost and you let it take time and you go high carbon and you'll never get in trouble. And there's way more carbon in the environment for us to use than there is nitrogen.DT: I guess that's the problem with conventional ag's...37:33 - 2201MB: They read the books. They don't know how to go out there-see composting is an art. That's the-what I-the first thing I say in my compost book. Composting (inaudible). Everything that is alive is going to die. When it dies it's going to rot whether we want it to or not. Composting is an art of working with the rotting process in an economical way. You've got to think economics-nature economics then that ultimately becomes pocketbook economics. Right? DT: Solar dollars.37:58 - 2201MB: Solar dollars, there you go.DT: (Inaudible)37:58 - 2201MB: The only problem we have is people throwing plastic. Plastic don't decompose. The sunlight can't destroy it. Okay, tell me when you're ready.DT: (Inaudible)

38:35 - 2201MB: See all this actinomycetes in there? See that fungi breaking it down? Look at the fungal thread. Now it's beginning to get a little bit warm in there. Whew, it's getting too hot now. This is not quite ready. Now this fungi that's on the outer edge, if it gets too hot it can't live. It moves into the pile as the pile cools down and this fungi is what breaks the wood down. Now a lot of people will come out here and they'll see this and they say, "Oh, you got the pile too hot. You ashed it." They think that's ashes. Beautiful stuff. This smells like money.

DT: What produces the heat?39:47 - 2201MB: The energy being released from-it's sunlight being released. That's the best way I can explain it. See, this was all plant material at one time and it collected the energy from the sun and turned it into carbohydrates-sugars, and now the microbes are feeding on that, breaking it down and releasing that sunlight energy.DT: (Inaudible)40:14 - 2201MB: Smells like money to me. There's no odor in this. There's a little bit. This is not quite ready. It's got probably one more turning in another month or two.

DT: The ammonia smell that comes from unripe compost...40:28 - 2201MB: Well, the ammonia-when the microbes break down protein the first step is ammonia and then that takes on nitrogen ion and becomes ammonium and then there's another microbe-works on that and makes nitrites and then there's another microbe takes that-could be the same one just changing itself. And then there's another microbe that makes nitrates, that's the end product. Now early in the spring, plants feed on ammonia because there's not enough nitrates being released. They can feed on ammonia, but a nitrite they don't like. That's kind of a toxic form. Nitrates now is the form that most plants can feed on later on and you want it-you want all this in the pile or in the soil breaking down as the 41:55 - 2201plant needs it. And the ammonia in these static piles is reabsorbed are carbon-pretty well stays in the pile and make carbic ac-carbonic acids and the humic acids and things like that. We don't want to lose the nitrogen ammonia to the air. We don't want to lose the moisture to the air. We don't want to lose the carbon to the air and we pretty well got it all sealed in and the microbes are using it in-in building their bodies. That's why I like static piles. When you got a windrow turner, you're constantly losing moisture, constantly losing ammonia, constantly losing carbon dioxide and you're loading the air with carbon dioxide and we need that carbon in the pile. We need that carbon in the soil.41:55 - 2201End of reel 2201End of interview with Malcolm Beck