Mike Bradshaw Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: Mr. Bradshaw, you've been a Texas game warden for over thirty years now and I was wondering if you could tell us how hunting andbeing a game warden has changed over that- almost a full generation?

00:01:33 - 2363

MB: I think the- the- the most important thing that happened was I like to refer to it as federal interference, but when I started to work,we could patrol all the hours we wanted. And I seldom made it by the house except to eat and bathe and sleep and I was gone again. And that's the game wardens worked duringhunting season. We stayed in hunting camps and we carried a cook stove. I still carry one out in my vehicle and- and I still enjoy staying in the camps. And many days or on manypatrols, we'd stay gone three or four days at a time and come in and- and lay around and rest up a little bit and go back out again. And during hunting season we probably worked- I- I- I- Ican't

00:02:28 - 2363 really estimate- maybe 70, 80 hours a week. It was just a tremendous amount of hours and without cell phones or- or any way to get a hold of us,well the messages would pile up and a lot of those messages couldn't be put out over the air. Game wardens in those days had house sets where the wife could call and every game warden'sfamily worked for Texas Parks and Wildlife free, believe or not, because all our kids had to know what was in that hunting guide, it seemed like because you had people calling all the time"When's dove season" or "When's deer season end" or "When is this" or "When is that?" And so, my wife knew those regulations and the dates just about almost as well as I did and my kidsknew a lot of the dates too. And it seemed liked my whole family worked for the state. And I have a- a daughter and a son and- and- and my wife and they were 00:03:29 - 2363 very supportive of me. And I know my wife didn't like it. I'd get in there and just sit down to supper and the phone would ring and we'dhave a call and I'd have to leave. And I remember one time I left on a call and I was right here in the county and my wife could hear me on the radio out there talking and- but I stayedgone like three days till I finally made it back. But it was just one of those seasons where things were happening. I was making one case after another and in those days, gamewardens made lots of deer cases in south Texas. I can remember one season where Jim Pon and I probably caught 00:04:10 - 2363 sixty or sixty-five men a piece, which is quite a load for a game warden to make. And wardens all over south Texas were catching them likethat. Oh you'd have a little dry run in there where it seemed like you were snake bit and then pretty soon, you could do no wrong again. You're out there catching them. And- and so we were free and- and unfettered. We could just run all hours we wanted. We had all the gas money we could ever run through that old automobile. We had fast carsand big engines and- and it was lots of fun. And the judges were available 24 hours a day and when you'd catch one, you'd- hauled him in, put him in jail or you'd call that justice ofthe peace and got them 00:04:58 - 2363 in there. And it was pay or stay here in Dimmit County. If they didn't have the money well, they could make their call from the jailand- and they soon got the money. And that's the way it was. Nowadays you can't find a judge to come out at night hardly unless it's a death or something. And the federalgovernment has- has fixed- fixed it where with the wage and hour thing, they don't want us working over 160 hours in a 28 00:05:25 - 2363 day period. And that has just severely restricted us. And it changed our way of life and the new guys coming on don't know what it waslike back then and quite frankly, it was a lot of fun. And we wouldn't have done it if we weren't enjoying it. And now, you know, the department could get in trouble if you worktoo many hours and- and- especially if the Feds come in and do an audit and see that you worked all these hours. They're going to have to pay you overtime. And we were told by thedirector of law enforcement back in those days that he'd pay overtime, once. And I- I kind of took it that we'd be out if- 00:06:12 - 2363 if we turned in any overtime. So, we- we handled it in our own way. I'll- I'll just- I won't go any further than that but that's- it was kindof a blow to us. And I know Jim Pon took it particularly hard. He even called the governor. Pon was one of those kind of guys, you know, that- he didn't really go throughchannels like you're supposed to go. He never thought anything about picking up the phone. I can't remember who was governor there but he went through three or four secretariesand different ones to- to get to talk up there where he could voice his opinion about this new federal ruling. And of 00:06:52 - 2363 course, the governor called over to the Parks and Wildlife or to one of the commissioners over there and- and- to explain that he didn't really haveany control over this federal law but that the department could fix it by paying overtime. And, of course, we're on a very tight budget and they're just not going to do that. We're on a monthly salary and- and we just have to live with that because the legislature has a little pie to divide among a lot of hungry people out there and that's just a fact of life andwe have to work around that.

DT: Well, you've explained how the life and certainly the pay rates have changed over the last thirty years, have the hunterschanged- the number and kind of poaching incidents that you see, changed?

00:07:49 - 2363 MB: Oh, yeah, you know, I mentioned to you that one year that Pon and I caught so many hunters. Nowadays a game warden in southwestTexas, around Dimmit county and- and surrounding counties is probably having a great year if he catches a dozen road hunters or- or spotlighters or knife hunters. In fact, we've gotwardens who go all season long and maybe make one, two or three road hunting or knife hunting cases. It kind of depends. It always varies but the upside to that is that instead ofgetting a two hundred dollar fine, you're going to get maybe a fifteen hundred dollar or two thousand dollar fine now. The guy might get placed on probation. I know that sounds alittle 00:08:41 - 2363 contradictory with what I said a while a go but that's still not a great fine. Perhaps even the man might have to serve his time out injail. There's also the potential that he might have to serve some jail time if you ever find a real hard nosed judge. So that part's good and the- the other part of it is that alot of wardens don't like it, because you have to write a report now. And back in the- when I started, you just wrote a ticket, took the man in directly to the judge. He didn'tpass go, he paid his two hundred dollars and he was gone. And nowadays it may be a month before the case comes up. The county 00:09:22 - 2363 attorney has to review the cases and then you- normally you- we have a plea bargain and the- the thing works its way through county court. Andeventually the fine is paid but it's- everything is slowed down now. It's like we're going in slow motion but the cases are all investigated and there's- we take pictures and we have labreports and it's almost like working a murder nowadays, especially if you have one of these cases where a suspect has dragged a deer from one property onto another. Say he's- he'scommitted a felony and taken the game without the landowner's consent well, then comes the big 00:10:02 - 2363 investigation. And that kind of makes up for the lack of action to me because I always enjoy the investigations. I- I like drawing up thereports and taking the pictures and- and doing all that kind of stuff so and especially like getting the convictions at the end and having a plea bargain where the guy just goes and pleadsguilty and- and you- you- you get him so thoroughly that he doesn't fight the case. And so, there's- there's a certain amount of satisfaction in that but I still miss the old days.

DT: Is part of the reason for changes in the hunting, poaching and game warden work due to the increased cost of hunting leases andthe increased value of a trophy buck? Are the stakes higher than they used to be, in other words?

00:10:57 - 2363 MB: Well, the stakes are higher, of course, and the greater the risk, the fewer the players you're going to have out there. And inthe older days a two hundred dollar fine really wasn't much, you know. I think as a game warden, when I started out, I was making like six-eighty a month. So, a two hundred dollar finewouldn't have broke me had I been involved in one of those kind of things. And so, I'm sure the average person out there working made more than the average game warden. So, I- theycould pay the fine and- and they just considered that, maybe as a cost of playing the game and it is a game to them. Nowadays, it's a more serious game. I remember- we seldom caughtthe same 00:11:43 - 2363 guy twice down here because we had a very good judge, Judge Larry Spear and we didn't take them to justice court too often. We'd take them intocounty court when Larry was in office for eight years. And we'd usually file two cases and we'd get the two hundred dollar fine plus sixty dollars court cost which amounted to fivehundred and twenty dollars a man. And you'd catch a car load of guys at five-twenty a person; that translated into big bucks back in the 70's. So, it usually scared themoff. We broke them away from hunting down here. And Herbert Ward had his own way of- of enforcing the law here, Mr. Ward went to work in the 1920's

DT: And he's a early Texas game warden?

00:12:33 - 2363 MB: He was an early Texas game warden and he started here, I think in 22', at Caterina and he had a jail cell down there. We hadsatellite jails in Dimmit County. We have the main jail up here in town and then we had a satellite jail there at Caterina and another one as Ashton, one at Big Wells. And Mr.Ward would throw them in that and it was just like a big old parrot cage or monkey cage down there and no bathroom. They had a bucket and he'd give them a little water down there andtake them to the judge the next morning, I guess and they certainly didn't want anymore of that. And they- after they paid their fine, they didn't come back to Dimmit County to roadhunt when Mr. Ward got through with them. And then came Jim Pon in, I think in '49, and then I came on in '73. DT: I hear that in the early days that these game wardens did much of their patrolling on horseback, is that true? 00:13:42 - 2363 MB: That's true. Mr. Ward told me that there were very few fences back in the 20's. And so he had a couple of horses and apack outfit and when he'd leave on patrol, of course, he was gone for many days at a time and- and he'd work parts of Webb County down here and over in La Salle County and up towards theMines Road and the Chupedero Ranch and- and back that way and ride right up into the camps there. And people walked and hunted in those days. That's another way hunting haschanged in Texas. When Mr. Ward started, he told me everybody hunted Indian Style, to use his words. They got out and- and walked and stalked their game. When I started asa warden, hunters were driving around in vehicles but they didn't bait. That was- that was- very seldom did you find corn spread out in a ranch. Within four or five years,you 00:14:46 - 2363 started seeing the game feeders in the ranches and then pretty soon came these inventions that- where they hooked the- the corn spreaders on the backof the vehicles or on the front of the vehicles, push a button and spread the corn and- and then shoot the deer's that comes up to eat the bait. And it's- it's not hunting compared to theold way but that's they way a lot of the new hunters are being trained and it's hunting to them.

DW: Speaking of changes and tactics, I know when we were at Parks and Wildlife looking at their footage (inaudible) but Inotice that were as you speak of baiting, the hunters bait the deer. I noticed that the wardens bait the hunters. It looked to be this artificial deer that they put out there for trackand road, some very interesting footage from that, it may help describe what we're seeing in those images.

00:15:40 - 2363 MB: Yes, you know, we had this idea that we would love to use a decoy deer and Mr. Ward used a decoy deer back in the 30's and 40's.I don't know what years it was but he used that. But in those days, some people considered that entrapment but the legislature clarified that language, I believe, where merely tooffer the opportunity to someone to violate the law, does not in itself constitute entrapment. So we got it cleared through the commission and through some district attorneys, theytalked to them and through the legislature it'd be okay to use that kind of- of tool. And I think they were using it in- in Tennessee and different places by putting the decoy deerout. So we've worked the decoy down here. There's- it's kind of labor intensive because you have one man right 00:16:39 - 2363 there with the decoy where he can film or take photographs and then you've got a- a- a person at either end of the road as catch cars in case they run,they can go stop them. And so, you've got three wardens tied up there at the same spot. And a lot of wardens just prefer to work in an area where there were a lot of deer andwhere you have a heavy road hunting activity. And it's kind of sad; we don't really have a way to shut them down when a road hunter comes by. In other words, it's kind of likeafter the fact with law enforcement. It's not against the law to have a loaded gun in the vehicle. It's not against the law for a person to drive slowly along the county roadwhere deer are known 00:17:30 - 2363 to roam. It's not against the law for a person to turn around and even look at a deer in a bar ditch. The violation comes after that person haspulled the trigger. So, you kind of have to sacrifice the deer and let the hunter load it up but after that, you've got one strong case. So I- you know what? Its- it's- a lotof people don't understand how- how the thing works but that strengthens the case when they shoot the deer out there and load it up. And a lot of wardens just prefer to work thatway.

DT: You've told us a little about wardens and I think that part of what you've learned is through your research and interviews for abook that you're doing 'Game Wardens, That's us" is in preparation right now, can you tell us what led to you to want to collect these interviews and try to write this book?

00:18:31 - 2363 MB: Stories around the campfire. When I started to work and I came to this district, Jim Pon was my partner and my supervisor wasJohn Caudle over at Cotulla and Larry Griffin was a warden at Cotulla. Down at Laredo was Jim Reese and an old fellow named C.E. Whittington who'd came on in the 40's. Bill Lenerman wasover at Brackettville. He'd started, I think in '59 and we had Bill Hoyle up here at Pierce Hall. He had started around '55, I think. And then at Uvalde, had Raymond Custer. He'd started about '55, somewhere in there. And had all these old timers there and I just love listening to those stories. And I thought, you know, somebody ought to take atape 00:19:27 - 2363 recorder over here and- and record that. Well, unfortunately I wasn't smart enough to do that until about nine years ago, it finally hit me thatI needed to preserve some of this history. So, I started going around trying to find these old game wardens. Unfortunately many of them had already passed away but I startedtrying to preserve some of the stories that I could and would set them down and- and we'd just talk. And sometimes the interviews would last six-seven hours. And from that well, Iwould glean the stories. Then I went- I went up to the archives and that led me on a even greater hunt because I didn't really know where our roots were. And I didn't know when thefirst game warden 00:20:18 - 2363 was hired, had no idea. And from the archives, I found some old reports and then I went back to some old newspapers clippings. And it'sbeen a long, slow investigation as you- as I wind my way through all of this- these tons of- of papers out there and- and trying to decipher what went on. And- and it's kind of sadthough. Our records at the archive are- are lacking and they're minimal at best. And at Parks and Wildlife, all our 00:20:59 - 2363 records were hauled to the city dump in the early 60's to make room for an expanding department. So photographs and old reports and anythingthat game wardens may have written in, old letters, files and all of that were- they were all hauled away and dumped there at Austin. So it's- it's been very hard trying to put all ofthis together but as people find out that I've been working on this project well, they call up and say my uncle was a game warden and- and or I have a letter here that somebody gave my grandpaor different things like that and- and have been able to put together a lot of interesting stories from that.

DT: Can you tell us any of the highlights from some of the more exciting stories that you've heard from these older wardens?

00:21:50 - 2363 MB: Oh, man, well, in- in the book there you'll read about it. Bill Lenerman, for example over in Kinney County, has a funnystory about the night they killed the gate. They got into a shoot out from some deer poachers at night and they were from Mexico and forded the river down there illegally and werecoming into this ranch and- and killing cattle and were also shooting deer and cutting them up and taking them back across the river and selling them in the market. And I thought thatwas a very good story and how they got into this fire fight down there and- and apparently no one was killed on the spot but they shot that gate all to pieces, Bill said. Andthen John Caudle, who was my supervisor for years, he grew up up in the Panhandle and then became a game 00:22:52 - 2363 warden around 1959. And- and he's got just all kinds of exciting stories, chases that he's been in and- and cases that he's made. And thenof course, Jim Pon's story. Jim Pon was a cowboy before he came to- to work and Herbert Ward. Mr. Ward went to- was a cowboy down on the old Caterina Ranch and the Caterina Ranch in thosedays was about 230,000 acres, a very big ranch. And- and that's what led him to become a game warden because he guided hunters down there. And so Mr. Ward has told me some of hisstories. And- and a lot of these old time stories involve kind of what you would call 00:23:42 - 2363 heavy handed tactics today. You'd probably get sued for it today. There's a little head knocking in some of those old stories and Mr.Ward actually had to kill a man in- in the line of duty. And Warden McBee over in Kinney County actually had to- had to kill a man in self-defense. So, it's a- it was- it wasdifferent times in a way. You can still get killed today, don't get me wrong but you'll read a lot of stories in there where wardens have instead of using pepper spray or mace or ataser gun or something, pulled their pistols out and conked that guy on the top of the head, creased his hat for him, knocked 00:24:26 - 2363 him down and put the cuffs on him. But that's just the way it was done in those days. Wardens didn't have the training like they havetoday. DT: I was just saying that it has always impressed me that game wardens go into situations as you suggested where everybody's armed,it may be dark, a number of them may be drunk and I'm curious if, you know, have you been shot at yourself or been in a dangerous situation like that? 00:24:59 - 2363 MB: I don't think I've ever been shot at purposely but I have had bullets come very close. I remember one night I was sitting on ahill and watching for night hunters. It was in the middle of the week about one o' clock in the morning and- and a car came by. And they stopped down the road and I put the glassesup and was looking at them and I could see this deer walk in front of the headlights. It was a doe and they just drove on but they were very interested in that deer. So, I justdecided I'd just kind of get off and follow them out there in the darkness and drove off the hill and trailed behind. And they hadn't driven just a couple of miles and they went up to agate and went in it and broke 00:25:42 - 2363 out a spotlight and- and started spotlighting this field. And there were a bunch of deer running around out in the field and they startedshooting and- and they drove up there real fast and these deer ran around behind the vehicle. And the deer all of a sudden were between me and the hunters. And they got out andstarted shooting at that deer. And I don't know if you've ever heard bullets come by but they really sound bad out there and it's just very hard to describe the feeling. I don't knowhow close they were to me but they sounded like they were very close. So, I got out- got behind my car and these men shot and spotlighted two deer right there in front of me and then ranover a third deer and took it up to a camp. They had a bunch of illegal aliens working in there and were feeding them. And of course, when they came back out the gate, I'd calledJim Pon on 00:26:37 - 2363 the radio and got him up and they were two gates and we didn't know which gate that they were going to leave by. A smart guy goes in one gateand comes out another. And- but they came right out the same gate that they went in. So and we were watching both gates and- and we caught them when they came out. And oh,they lied. They- they said they hadn't shot anything and here's all this wet blood dripping out of the back of the truck. And finally they knew we were going to go up there andfind the deer. So, they finally they confessed. I think they'd told me they were going out there picking cucumbers or something at one o'clock in the morning.

DT: I think there were a lot of people, a broad segment of the population curious about wildlife but I don't know many people whocare about it enough to put their life at risk. And I was wondering if you could say what it is about you and some of your colleagues that drives you to be a game warden and, you know,undertake this kind of risky work.

00:27:41 - 2363 MB: That's kind of hard to- to say. I don't know what drives a person to- to want to do this kind of work. In one way, it's- it'sfairly safe because most of the people you're dealing with are- are sportsmen. On the other hand, we've had wardens murdered and left or- or shot and assaulted. And there's a highrate of assaults in game wardens across the nation. And Fish and Wildlife did a study one year and found that game wardens were more likely to be assaulted than any other group ofofficers. I- I don't know where they got their information or much about it. I'm just quoting what I read there. And I- I 00:28:28 - 2363 think when I was young I felt invincible and I never believed that that was going to happen to me, that I was going to get hurt in any way or- or- orshot or stabbed or anything. Now that I'm at the age where I am, and- and I'm- I have realized my mortality and try to be careful but sometimes you just- you have to go into thesesituations. And a smart warden, if you can, will call for back-up. I mean, it's kind of dumb to go into a camp were you know there's going to be trouble and try to handle it allyourself and be the hero. That kind of person doesn't last very long and- and usually gets someone hurt in the process. So, you try to- try to use your head.

DT: You told us a little about this game management and game protection effort from the game warden side. I was curious if youcan give us any insight how the typical poacher has changed from when you first came on staff and what maybe makes him tick?

00:29:43 - 2363 MB: You know, I've often wondered that, what does make a poacher tick? So, I approached a group of many- several I should say,I put several retired poachers and asked them for an interview. And they consented and we had rules and of course, I- I didn't use their name or anything. But that was all therules and I could ask them anything I wanted to ask. And so, our interviews lasted a long time and there were probably a hundred questions or a hundred and fifty questions to each ofthese men. And I began to see kind of a pattern in there. And number one they look at themselves as like Robin Hoods almost, not necessarily they're going to share their bountywith the poor 00:30:37 - 2363 now but they're trying to stick it to the man. They want to go out there and- and hunt on a big landowner's place because he has land and theydon't. They also don't like the idea that if they get caught in addition to paying the fine, they have to pay a restitution fee to the Parks and Wildlife Department for that animal thatthey've killed. It's a civil fee, yet a landowner when he sells a hunt out on his ranch, he doesn't have to pay the state a restitution fee. And that really galls these outlawhunters. They, you know, they think that the landowner ought to have to pay that fee. And another thing they like of course, is 00:31:24 - 2363 the adventure. They- they like to go out there and- and talk about how they fooled the game warden. Man, I tell you they- they tell morestories and you can- you just can't believe how these stories grow and grow and grow. And in their stories, of course, the game warden never comes out the hero. They're always thehero of their stories. And- but it's very interesting and the reason I did that is so that I could try to understand how these men think. And I told them it was for trainingpurposes and I use those interview tapes to show the cadets up at the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department or if I'm giving a 00:32:08 - 2363 program somewhere to game wardens and I've shown this film in several states how these people think and what they're doing. And it will justamaze you at the tricks that they've come up with to get around the system and to avoid detection.

DT: Can you give us an example how they elude getting caught?

00:32:27 - 2363 MB: I can give you a few of them. Some of them I wouldn't want to put on the air because they'd be using them again but these guysare very clever. You know, they steal locks off of gates and have- have keys made to the locks and then take and put the locks back on. And they- they figure out gates that aren'tused and go in there. And- and they may enter through the main gate but they'll come out on the back unused gate if someone presses them or gets after them. They- they use all kindsof night vision goggles and- and all this kind of stuff to hunt with. They'll- they go to such pains to 00:33:12 - 2363 kill a deer that it would probably come out cheaper if their time were worth anything, they could probably go get a hunting lease a lot easier thanall this plotting and planning that they do to get away with their crime. They wrap their feet many times in- in sacks or cut a rug out and put it on the bottom of their feet so as notto leave tracks. And it really works well. If you don't know what you're looking at, you'll just see some disturbed soil out there but it doesn't look like a boot track. Andthey'll walk for miles doing that. And of course, they're fully camouflaged and have on the face paint and- 00:33:51 - 2363 and nowadays with the cell phones, they have better communication in case they're jumped and they- they're split up well they can get back togetherand they can call they're rides to come pick them up on the highway. And that's just some of the more common things that are done and I mean, it doesn't take any Einstein to figure thatout. And- but some of these tricks that they use are very devious. They've gone- I- I don't know how they come up with some of these things but the- the interviews were- were veryfruitful in- in many ways.

DT: Do the reasons that poachers hunt change over time? I'm curious if at one time they were poaching more for the meat thatthey could get and now maybe more for the trophies that they could take home?

00:34:42 - 2363 MB: I- I would say in a- in a way, yeah. I think a man has always liked to kill a big trophy buck, maybe even a hundred years ago.I- I don't know but I would think that because you hear these stories about great grandpa killed this really big deer and- and the antlers were passed on generation to generation. I knowmen especially during the depression and before that when times were so hard, hunted to feed their families. Nowadays there's no need for that of course, you have all these governmentsubsistence programs and all the gimme stuff out there. And so, you very seldom hear them talk 00:35:27 - 2363 about hunting for meat. In fact I just don't hear it anymore. The reason men hunt nowadays is to get those big antlers. Someare getting them to sell, others acquire the antlers just to put on the way to have a trophy up there and have bragging rights. And depending upon who's listening to the story, I'm sureit changes. If they're- if they're talking to a local district attorney they tell him they killed the deer on some hunting lease somewhere. And if they're talking to their beerdrinking buddies, they probably tell them that they spotlighted the deer and tell them all the gory details.

DT: Are some of the poachers hired by other people to shoot a deer or some other animal?

00:36:14 - 2363 MB: Well, close to that. We have poachers who have acted as guides. In other words, they take clients for pay into ranches andguide them for a fee. And they explain to the class that if we get caught, you're on you own, you pay your fine, I pay my fine. And that's the way it works and I've interviewedtwo or three poachers who've told me that.

GS: Has GPS made it harder to catch these guys?

00:36:53 - 2363 MB: GPS helps them- it helps them navigate through the ranches and especially now that you can download these- these programs where you cansee all the ranch roads, what do they call that- a topo map- that helps. And helps them get around and they really know where they're at nowadays. And they- and they can find theirway out in case law enforcement gets after them. They can run. They know the quickest way out to the highway and yeah, I'd say it's- it's helped a lot.

DT: Do you run into taxidermists that are in league with the poachers?

00:37:40 - 2363 MB: Uh, yes. DT: And what's their role involved in that? 00:37:44 - 2363 MB: Well, again many of the- many taxidermists are straight arrows, wouldn't commit a violation if you tried to force them to, yet there'sthat small percentage. We've caught taxidermists trespassing. We've caught them in- in other violations and- or we know over the years a few of them helped poachers concealheads. And we know of cases where the- they may have gotten word that wardens were looking for a certain head and may have removed that head from their place of business before thewardens could get there. I'm- I'm- I'm sure that goes on a lot and we've heard reports of that.

DT: Well, I think that pretty much uses up the questions I have that are reasonably focused. I was wondering if you might haveany thoughts about the kind of advice you might offer to younger people about wildlife? About game protection? Maybe even about being a warden?

00:38:54 - 2363 MB: Yeah, I tell you, I've had a lot of men over the years approach me and tell me, you know, I always wanted to be a warden. I- Iadmire you guys but I decided that I'd go for money instead. And unfortunately you have- you have to be able to live on a small salary if you're going to be a Texas game warden. And they pay us adequately but 00:39:23 - 2363 you're not going to get rich. And so you have to derive your satisfaction in other ways and not for money or for your worldly things that youcan accumulate. And I- I guess the average warden out there feels like he's giving his part to the- to the enhancement of wildlife somehow by keeping the- the sport of hunting straightand helping prevent over hunting and- and keep the outlaws scared off. And so to a young man who wanted to be a warden, I'd tell him go for it. If you want to be a warden, Ithink- I think that that's a good career. It's- it's an honorable profession and there's no job like this one because 00:40:17 - 2363 we have to have so much mileage and so many skills to do this job. For instance, you have to be a good tracker and a sign cutter if you'regoing to be a brush country warden. I mean, that just goes a long with the territory but you have to know something about forensics and you have to know the- the penal code plus you haveto know the Parks and Wildlife code. And plus you have to know our proclamations and then you have to be a public speaker because they train us to do that. And no other branch ofthe service or like D.P.S. for instance, the state trooper, they have specialists that they can call in. But we 00:40:59 - 2363 may be working a pollution call one day and rescuing some kind of a bird out of somebody's house the next day or picking up a fallen deer andthen- and then helping the sheriff's department work a crime scene perhaps on a murder one day and then another day out catching poachers. And so, you- I think there's just a lot more tohave to learn at this job and- but it's- it's interesting, it's not anything boring about it.

DT: We usually close these interviews by a question about a place and some kind of spot that is in the outdoors that you like to govisit, that reminds you of why you enjoy your job, protecting wildlife and game, gives you some kind of solace and rest.

00:41:57 - 2363 MB: Yeah, you know, I can drive out my driveway and- and head out and in five minutes be away from- from a- a lot of people. And Ican go through a couple of gates down there and go into some of these big ranches and perhaps not see another person all day long if I wanted to avoid people. But I have some favoriteplaces that I like to go along the Rio Grande and along the Nueces River up here and they're- they're beautiful and they're calm and- and I just wonder what the rest of the world is doingthat day. I kind of fell sorry for them. DT: Good point, well, thank you very much for your time, is there anything you'd like to add? 00:42:44 - 2363 MB: Well, I really don't have anything else to add. I- I thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about Texas GameWardens. DT: Well, thank you very much.