Richard Harrel Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: We talked a little bit about your work with Clean Air and Water and other nonprofit groups. And also your role as an educator trying to get information out to your students and the public about the environment. I'm curious what sort of role the media have in helping you do that.

RH: Well, we used to seek news media help in hearings and meetings and things like that. We don't do that, that much as far as our group is concerned. But, the Beaumont paper, you can get about as much information as if you read Ladies Home Journal, about the environment.

It, they're not very good. If you, if we, if I want to know something that would be concerning the environment, I'd buy the Houston paper, even if I want to know about Beaumont.

They don't, they dont, they're not very good as far as being environmental arbitrator or in informing you much about the environment. So our local media is not so good. We dont really seek news releases from the radio station and the TV and things like that.

DT: Why do you think that there's not much coverage?

RH: I think that it may not be, it's sort of the same attitude our local paper has sort of the same attitude as the Chamber of Commerce and industry. They don't want to hurt anything. And when you talk about the environment you end up with some things that are somewhat negative. And so I think that they sort of shy away from the information altogether.

DT: I guess one other way that people sort of learn about the environment is through the state agencies. What sort of role have they played in being an arbitrator and an information source about the environment?

RH: Well, I, you know, I have no gripes with our state agencies whatsoever. Most of the, lot of the people that work for our district like the TNRCC, we have a district office here in Beaumont, and I imagine that about half of the people that are at this office are Lamar graduates.

And they are graduates of the Environmental Science degree program and the Biology and Chemistry and Engineering degree, that they here at Lamar. So, they do their job. They cannot do more than their job, or they would probably lose it. And so they have to comply with what they're supposed to do.

And so I, I have no gripes with them whatsoever. They're, they do what they, they will help me and they'll give me information and help me find information. And so I really have no complaints with our regulatory agencies at all.

DT: Well, speaking of the Lamar graduates that you spoke about. You deal with students every day and have for many years. What sort of concerns and interests do they have in the environment and how do they differ from say our generation or earlier?

RH: They're better informed. The ones that choose to be, are better informed. Like, I'm the Director of the B.S. Degree in Environmental Science and it's a very tough degree. Its interdisciplinary. It has a lot of chemistry, physics, math, biology and some civil engineering and political science.

And its a very demanding degree. Well, weve had a lot of students we generally will graduate four or five students every graduation, which would be December, May and August. And so we have students that graduate and theyre hired by regulatory agencies or theyre hired as consultants or they work in environmental divisions for industry, that type of thing.

Well, they have been educated to think that, you know, this is what I'm, this is what it should be. And so I think that we made a lot of difference, that type of thing, through education. And then also, well, they, I can't think what I was going to say, I was trying to lead up to something else.

Oh, I've had graduate students. I've had about 30 some graduate students that have got a Masters in Biology. And I think about a third of them have gone on and got their Ph.D.s and most of them are in the environmental field. So, you know, they've, that's their profession. And so that...

DT: Lets talk about some of the other long-term changes. When you first stared doing this 30 years ago to the present day, what ongoing environmental problems do you see? And what problems do you think we've solved? And what problems have cropped up more recently?

RH: Well, some of them are always going to occur. And its just because of the heavy industrialization. You know, you don't have, you don't go out and replace all your lines and your equipment and your valves and your tanks, and things like that. And so we're always going to have accidents, equipment failure that occur.

So you're always going to have emissions from the air and and water, coming out into the water from that. We have very frequent spills in the Neches River. One occurred yesterday or day before, la, the week before there, I know of two that occurred. And most people don't hear about them.

But we do have frequent spills of material, petrochemical products going into the water. And thats going to always occur, probably. And its because of the high concentration of the industry in the area. And so we're never going to have a, a clean environment when you have this heavy of a problem.

As far as on a global and other scale, rather than a local scale, the whole problem is people. There's too many people. And the problem is not going to do anything but increase. Next week were going to have our six billionth person on earth. And then, a few years down the line, 2030, something like that, 2050, I don't remember exactly.

We'll have twelve billion miserable souls living on this earth. And so, you know, the problem is not going to do anything but compound. And the environmental issues are going to be more and more and more important. And it all relates to population and products and demands for products.

And so we're, as our population increases we're going to have more demand. And we're going to try to maintain standard of living as good as we can. And so, there's always more stress on the environment. And it's always going to require more regulation, not less. And it's always going to have to be more stringent, just to stay up, not to get ahead. And so it's people that's a major, it's population.

DT: You've seen the Neches River come back. How resilient do you think the global ecosystem is? Is there a breaking point, or do you think its relatively elastic and can sustain more and more pressure?

RH: (talking over David) I think its somewhat elastic, but there is a breaking point. But, I dont think that well see it as far as the global condition is concerned. You know, we might be more fragile than that breaking point. Because we're looking at it from an entire system, see? We've been here for a short period of time, evolutionary. Why and...

DT: You're talking about humans?

RH: Yeah, humans. And so, you know, we might not be here much, you know, weve been here for a very short period of time and we dont know how long were going to be here. Something else will be here.

DT: Maybe some of your Mussels and..

RH: Well, if not my Mussels then probably the Cockroaches and some things like that, that are real generalists and tolerant to lots of different conditions.

DT: Do you have some message or thought that you want to pass on to people that will see this tape or read this transcript?

RH: No. I just hope that everybody has a good environmental conscience and looks at things from a perspective that, a long-term perspective, not a short-term perspective. And don't look at everything in terms of the dollar. And and don't relate the dollar to increasing industry, things like that.

I think that we should relate things in more of a long term and health where do you want, how do you want to live. You know, do you want to have other things living in association with you? Or is everything going to be people? That type of thing. Do you want to have a forest? Do you want to be able to breathe clean air when you go outside? That type of thing.

DT: What do you mean by environmental conscience?

RH: Well, an environmental conscience is where you're, you're trying to do what's right. Rather than what's going to give you immediate profit.

DT: Well I think you've done the right and good thing for many years and certainly the generous thing by spending some time with us here today. Thank you very much.

RH: My pleasure.

End of tape 2053 End of interview with Richard Harrel