Chester Rowell Interview, Part 2 of 2

0:01:34 - 2143CR: ...even out here with satellite antennas, why we can keep-I can keep up with what's going on all over the world, you know, via television. But you asked about my teaching, I started as a-as a teaching assistant for my masters at A & M and I liked it. And so then after the first two years when I got my master's, why I stayed there eight more years just teaching full time.DT: What appealed to you about teaching?0:02:06 - 2143

CR: It's-it's-it's the few doors that you open. If you can-you can see their eyes bright up when they get interested. Like this young man that's going to come by. He's interested in plants now and photographs. And he had no background in that. It's just-I say I'm just trying to open new doors for you to look into. And that's what teaching is. And, to enjoy what you're doing. And I-and I enjoy botany. I mean, and that's fairly painfully obvious that-that it dominates my life. And so I-I can spread it that way. I-my lectures at Tech usually fill the auditorium, we-we had-size four hundred and ninety-nine. They wouldn't let us-a new auditorium, they wouldn't let us build a five hundred-seat auditorium because that gets out of the realm of a classroom. So our new 0:03:13 - 2143auditorium at Tech had four hundred and ninety-nine seats in it. And I got to design the-the-the-the teaching aides there. I had three large screens behind me that I could control from the front and a projection room and a sound system and all. And I-I found that after I lowered the lights, sometimes kids would get up and walk out. And so I got me a-a spotlight, you know, a really potent one? And I'd see some moving out, well I'd turn on the light and follow them. You know, that stopped that right away. You didn't have any-any more of that. DT: How did you get the people's attention who didn't get up and walk out?0:04:03 - 2143

CR: I-I did all kinds of odd things. When it was-general biology, for example, we had communications, I had the art department build me a gorilla suit and I'd come in and be interviewed as a gorilla on-on communications. And-oh, I'd have things put up on the lights in the auditorium and right on seed dispersal, and just as I got to the point about seeds dispersed to the air, I'd pull on these little black threads and they would just-seeds fall down all over everybody. And oh, occasionally I'd get somebody to come in and yell or have a protest meeting, botany si, zoology no. Or something like that. I had a wonderful, after I went to Tech, my department head allowed me to do things like that and not many places would have allowed me to develop that way. And he's still very dear to me for have-having allowed me to do it because I did things-we-I had-another friend that I taught with, another botanist, and I had this large class of about four hundred and some odd kids, and I had Paul come in and I said, you know, we're running late this semester, this-this week, on the things. So I asked Dr. Prior to come in and help us catch up. So we both start lecturing and writing on the board at the same time. You know? And quickly the kids would say, okay, you do one and you do the other and they're smart, you know? The kids are so much smarter than you think they are. And so-I-I-I got involved in all kinds of crazy things to get their attention. And while you have their attention, then you can sneak in some knowledge and so, it-it was fun. DT: I understand that you not only taught in large lecture halls but on field trips. I wonder if you could comment on how things have changed over the years. It seems like a lot of natural science was formerly taught in the field, but it's increasingly taught, or learned, in labs now. How would you explain that?0:06:47 - 2143

CR: Well, it's a lot easier for one thing, you know, to-to-to run a DNA analysis or chemical techniques where you can analyze what's in there. And you just don't have to go out and-and it's not-you know, it's-it's pretty laborious to be in the field. It's hot and it's dry or wet. And it's so much easier just to do the lab sort of thing. People are just not interested. There's very little fieldwork going on anymore. And there's, I think, a shame. And of course, the or-organismic levels, the organic-where you're dealing with the whole organism, is much less frequent now than it was in the past because now you're dealing with a part of an organism, with the cells, or-or subsystem, instead of the whole organism. And in the long run, I think that's detrimental. But I admit to being prejudiced about it too. But it's-it's-it's a lot different now.

And also the kids are different. I think I retired just at the right time because the kids are coming out now, they-they-they-they're really not interested in so much in their-and-and friends have disciplinary problems. Of course, we used to have that, I'd never had that because I made-the very first time I had a problem, it was settled then. And-and-and I didn't have it anymore. But if you let kids take control, why, you've lost it. And I had one faculty member that he got sick and I took over his classes and the kids got up and walked around and-and visit during the class and get up and go in and out. And he just had no control of his class. And I got that stopped, but you-you can't do it that way. But if you can get them interested, you don't have to worry about discipline. So, do everything you can to-to get them interested.DT: There's another new direction of research that I've heard a little bit about and that's genetic level research, engineering. And I was wondering as a taxonomist who has been careful to delineate the differences between the species, what you think of this melding of species?0:09:22 - 2143

CR: Well, this-this-this genetic engineering is simply a quick way of doing what we've done since time in memorial. We've selected a variety that we liked. We selected a-a-a mutant, or a change that we like and, for example, all the cole crops, COLE, or KOLE, cabbage and broccoli and all of those, came from one wild species in Europe. And through the years, they selected the ones that they wanted. So that's how we got cauliflower and broccoli and one, I can't think of it-we don't eat much here, but they do in Europe, and about six different things that were selected for, and-and reselected and reselected, so they were changed. So what we're doing now is just a more rapid way of doing it. There-these tomatoes out here are genetically engineered and they last-the shelf life is-is four times as long as the old tomatoes. You can get them and keep them two, three weeks out in the open and they're still good. So that means they travel better. Most of these go north and to Chicago and New York and that area. We grow here because they travel well. They don't get overripe too quick and it's simply, it's just-it's same as selection. It's just they speed it up a little bit. So...DT: What do you think about genetic engineering when you are taking genetic material from one phylum and putting it in another?0:11:13 - 2143

CR: It, you know, I can see both the dangers and the advantages in it. But if you can put insect resistance into a crop, it would be a totally different crop just by transferring some genetic material. That would be great. One of the problems with being with corn, you know, that they have this new genetically engineered corn...DT: (inaudible)0:11:40 - 2143CR: Uh huh. But the, I guess it's the pollen from them is-is-will kill bees. Of course, that's windblown. I can't think exactly of the example that I had in mind.DT: The Monarch Butterfly?0:12:00 - 2143CR: Yeah, yeah. I think that's-yeah, that's right. And some things like that. And that's got to be careful. And-and this-this-this business of-of duplication of an individual, of cloning. DT: What do you think of that?0:12:19 - 143

CR: I don't know, again, it could be misused, it could be advantageous. If you could clone a liver or a kidney or something and just grow it in vitro, it would be wonderful for everybody that's in line and needs a kidney or. Theoretically, any part could be grown. But-I don't know, you know, we manage to screw up a lot of things once we start really messing with them. I-I don't-I'm not at ease about cloning. Now they're talking now, you know, that they've-they're cloning humans. And that was inevitable. Once they found that they could do it but I don't think it will be successful. They'll get over it.DT: Can you look into your crystal ball and look at other sort of conservation problems that may be facing some of the students that you've taught over the years? And coming years?0:13:27 - 2143

CR: Yeah, they're all going to deal with the problems of global population. Worldwide. Here and everywhere else. That's going to be depleting the natural resources, possibly to a dangerous thing.

And then we got into politicians that simply, in their own-to-to-to preserve their jobs are willing to do anything, like global war-global warming. There's no question about that occurring. And yet we have certain politicians that think it needs to be studied more. Well, it's been studied adequately, a long time. We know it's there. And when we get a politician who has been bought, then he's got to pay back the people that bought him. And that's usually detrimental to the-to the environment more often than not. Like the changes that have occurred recently in-in emission controls, in arsenic in the water supply. It's frightening what's been done in the-this first hundred years of this administration-first a hundred days of this administration.DT: Seems like years, doesn't it?0:14:42 - 2143CR: Yes, it really does. It just-it-it really upsets me on the thing. And...DT: Are there any environmental challenges that are more unique to West Texas, that aren't as global, perhaps as the climate change? I know that groundwater and other issues...0:15:02 - 2143

CR: Yeah, you see our groundwater here now, part of it's been-been bought by El Paso. Out at Valentine, they bought a-a major ranch because of the water that's underneath it and they plan to tap that water and feed it to El Paso, which now has almost a million people. And they're going to be desperate for water very soon. And so it's something-we do-we just now have formed sort of a water board and we're going to fight that sort of thing.DT: Is this the conservation district?0:15:42 - 2143

CR: Yeah. And we had these two tomato factories. Now, they're-they're there because of the water supply and their hydroponics. They're not grown in soil, they're hydroponics. And the initial thing was that they would use only the water from their wells and now they're buying from us, from our city's water supply, massive, hundreds of thousands of gallons. And initially, the-they set it up to get it real cheap, much-much cheaper than we pay per gallon. But we've-we've had a change in our government, local government. Instead of one man and two board members controlling everything, we have a larger body now. And so he's lost his power to do that sort of thing. And but we were just giving water away like mad. And I'm opposed-we were giving free water to-to a golf course out here and massive amounts for just the very few 0:16:50 - 2143people that play golf. And yet they didn't want to put in a swimming pool, or they didn't want to let them irrigate the cemetery, which is a relatively protected area. You know, you've-you really want to see what land originally was, one of your best places to go is to a cemetery because they're damaged least because of our-our superstition about the afterlife and so forth. So, that again is the demand for water,

the demand for energy. We're in good shape here right now. And we are-you know, there's what, one, two, I guess they have three batteries of wind generators up here in the Davis' now. And there's also one big solar electric system up there. And that's good. But we don't have an energy problem now, here. But it could come if we continue to expand. And-and 0:17:55 - 2143I'm guilty, good lord; I have everything in the world that-that's electrically operated. So I'm as guilty as any of us. And, of course, we, as a nation, are-are using resources far out of proportion to our numbers. World resources.

And again, unless we get a politician elected that can consider these things, even if he has certain other sexual predilections, he still-he still-we've just got to-to rise up really on the thing. And we have a democratic representative here, Pete Gallego, who has-has been, surprisingly, fighting, even though the ranchers put him in basically. He's been fighting for a number of the right things, both conservation-wise and socially as far as I'm concerned.

And0:19:01 - 2143again, there's-there's been some-of the ethnic groups in that we're-that-that the Anglos are-well, here it's eighty percent Mexican and twenty percent Anglos. And so we're the minority here. And we've got to educate the-these coming majorities. I feel very strongly. And so Ross does a pretty good job of that, and down at Laredo there's a pretty good job. UTL, El Paso UTL, is doing it and we're getting more scholarships for-for Latins and it's something we really need to do.DT: What do you think your advice would be to kids who are being educated about how they can deal with some of these problems that we are passing on to them, whether it's energy or water?0:19:59 - 2143

CR: It's just to get them excited about their environment and they'll realize it on their own, I'm convinced of it. Again, this young couple, this young man anyway, his-his whole outlook has been changed by-by taking care of me and getting interested in the plants and stuff. And, of course, I got him the cameras and set up. So, I've been-kids that showed interest in the field, I've been buying cameras for them as long as I can remember and because then they'll stop and look. And so that's why photography I think is so important. To make-make people stop and look. And-and a macrolens. Because in the desert, you know, it's-the belly plants are the most interesting plants when you have to get down on your belly to see are the more exciting ones. And we have, you know-you know, the resurrection plant? DT: Tell me about it.0:21:05 - 2143CR: It's a-it's a...DT: Fern?0:21:06 - 2143

CR: Fern relative. It's actually not a fern, it's just a laginella. But most of the year, you know, it's completely dried up and closed up like this. And within thirty minutes after the rain, it opens out and that's why the Resurrection, from dead to live. I had a girl one time, after I demonstrated that in lab, came and asked me, she said, where can I get my mother one of those salvation plants? She-she-she got it mixed up a little bit on the thing. But I still think education is-is the only hope and still, I know a lot of educated people that-there's a difference between educated and being, I don't know how you'd phrase it but education alone doesn't bring normal, good sense. And some of 0:22:03 - 2143our majors, you know, do such a horrible job of really educating people. Kids now are not subjected to the really classic literature. You talk-you make a quotation from Shakespeare and they're just completely lost. And that should not be. That's still, you know, one of the grandest things going. And they're not getting that.

And it's not because the teachers wouldn't do it, I think, it's because the pressures of the-the parents. And again, it's the parents are more important than the teachers in the long run. If they insist that the kids learn, insist that they do their work, it's going to be a lot better. And that would improve their problem of-of discipline that they are having with these 0:22:51 - 2143shootings. What did we have, two more campus shootings yesterday? It's-parents are scared to death of their kids and I'm an old bachelor, see, so I can speak about this with-with great authority. But I do observe, and them people are scared to death of their kids. They really are. Yesterday I saw a kid over here on the street that I knew, and he had blue, bright blue hair. Why in the world his parents let him do that sort of thing, because he looks idiotic, you know? I really don't understand. Do you ever watch Politically In-Incorrect?DT: I do.0:23:41 - 2143

CR: He's so good. I-I-I stay up, I-I can't get him until from 12:30 till 1:00 at night, but I stay-stay awake usually to-to listen to him. And he's pretty forceful. And a wonder he's not sued more often than he is,

but, again-I had-I took-when I did my doctorate, I-I-I first went to University of Michigan to do my doctorate. And my major professor wouldn't let me do the kind of dissertation that I wanted to do. And I wanted to do a floristic study and he wanted me to do a monograph, a study of just a genus, or part of a genus. And he said, the floristic study is either too much or too little. So I quit and went to-to work under Dr. Wadafal at-at Oklahoma State. And he let me do-I did a whole Texas Panhandle as the flora for my dissertation. And when it was done, I sent a copy to-to Dr. McVaugh at Michigan and he sent me a wire back, and he said, just what I thought, too damn much. But, it-it-it-it-it makes a difference on the thing, but anyway...DT: When you talked about the Panhandle and the coastal prairie and the bogs in East Texas, and desert out here in West Texas, is there an example of a place that you especially like to go or think about that gives you solace?0:25:22 - 2143

CR: That's where I am, right here-right here and the places that ha-that are available here. I love to just take the river road. You ought to take the river road. It's the most beautiful drive in Texas. And you can see all the diversity there and most of that is either Federally owned or privately owned land and it's not very much-it's been grazed mostly, not goats and sheep anymore. And they do come back.

It takes-if you stop overgrazing in the Gulf Coast, you can get pretty good recovery in five years. If you stopped overgrazing here, it would take about twenty years before it would show any signs. There's some good examples out here on the Davis Mountains where there's a 0:26:12 - 2143fence line and there's been overgrazing on one side and just pretty much left alone on the other. The one where it's overgrazed and then pulled off the animals, it's-it looks better. It's got a lot more growth and it's taller. But it's-they're invader species, they're not the natural ones. And then the other one that doesn't look as good, on the other side of the fence, actually, is-is the better of-of the two. And, you know, one bite of-of black grama for a cow is-is-is-in protein-is equivalent of about six bites of the grass along the Gulf Coast. The protein content is much higher in these plants out here. DT: And do you have any of the invasive grasses like the...?0:27:04 - 2143CR: Fortunately not. It-it-it hasn't done it here.DT: Did you used to have a problem with invaders out here?0:27:12 - 2143

CR: No, you know, it-it-it's a disturbance species. And you find most of the-the problem with the KR bluestem, it's been along side of the roads, where there's a disturbance. Now there-there are a lot of plants that just do best-I'm working on now a real-really limited species that is really limited distribution species of proboscidea. Unicorn plant plant? Does that mean anything? Anyway, it's-as far as I know, the population is totally represented by, say, between Presidio and the park and not very many cases there. All together, they occur in the strub-disturbed roadsides and in-in dry arroyos. That's a disturbed site. It's a disturbance that's-it doesn't-it-it can't 0:28:10 - 2143compete otherwise. And we have an endemic species there that's found nowhere else in the world. And I suspect it's on the other side of Mexico, but at this point there's no way to-to get to that-for me to get over there and see what's on the other side. But it is a very distinctive species. And up from Presidio North, there are two other species in the same genus, old species that we've known for a long time. But this one is, I don't remember, Dr. Coral found about 1980, I guess. And...DT: What areas have had more disturbance than West Texas? Do you see much threat from Old World species or other outside...?0:28:55 - 2143

CR: Yeah, yeah, we've had a lot of that come in. Yeah.DT: Can you give us some examples?0:28:58 - 143CR: The tallow tree is another good example of-of an emerging species that's spread in-into disturbed sites and-and taken over. What else? Well, a number of the less usable grasses that-that are invader species that can take over.DT: Is tumbleweed an invader species?0:29:25 - 2143CR: Yes, it's-it's an invader, but again, it's never really a problem. It's-it's-it's got bad PR, you know, but it never occurs in such an abundance that it's going to destroy anything. But again, it's a disturbance lower.DT: What about salt cedar or...?0:29:43 - 2143CR: It's terrible. That's really a threat, yes.DT: What's the impact or threat from that?0:29:47 - 2143CR: Well, they're-they call them free adiphites. They're plants that use more water than would be normally used by a similar looking plant. And so the-the Pecos River, which is just a little bitty stream, you know, here now, if they killed off all of that from it's origin all the way down here, the-the-we'd have a good running stream. They waste that much water. But they found out that certain doves, for example, nest-there's a subspecies of-of white-white wings that we've been (inaudible). I don't see any right now. I'm sorry I-I moved out of your thing. There's a subspecies of-of white wing doves that just nests in the-in these sites along the river where-where all that salt cedar is. So now that they-they're close to controlling it. So, it's two edged in that case, but they are wasteful plants, they really are.DT: That brings a thought to my mind. It seems like the Endangered Species Act and I guess sort of our cultural approach has often been to protect the animals but not to give the same amount of protection to plants. Do you see that sort of split?0:31:13 - 2143

CR: Yeah. The-the-the-people have always been more interested in animals than they are in plants. I think because we are animals. When I'm out collecting on the roadside, for example, and people come up and want to know what I'm doing, you know. If I tell them I'm collecting plants, I'm a taxonomist, they (?). So I tell them I'm a piano player in a whorehouse and then they'll leave me alone. See (?) like that. You have to put up with people's thing but really botany is, again I'm prejudiced, but they're-they're pretty well organized. We are, when we get together. We have a little bit of political pull to-to protect some things and maybe sometimes protect the wrong things. Again, in the peripheral plants, I don't see any sense in our worrying about some plants in East Texas that are very rare, but you cross over into the-the delta areas and-in the Louisiana areas they're abundant. So that's not a valid approach. But we have some endemics-we have three areas of great endemism in Texas.DT: Where are those?0:32:34 - 2143

CR: The Trans Pecos, the Edwards Plateau, and the Coastal Bend, surprisingly. That's where two major floras come together, Tamaulipan flora, which is a distinctive flora from Tamaulipas. And the coastal flora from south-southeast United States come together there. And so it's produced a lot of ecotone, of endemic species. And I told you earlier that ecotone is this contact between two vegetative zones where they enter and they say no bot-botanist has ever lived anywhere except on an ecotone. Wherever you live, you think you're on an ecotone, because you can see the influence of one or the other. A good 0:33:18 - 2143example is the-is the-the vegetation here. Dang, it's got a-a lot of influence from-from the coastal vegetation, few species from the Edwards plateau stuff and from the eye plain stuff, it's got some elements of it. The difference between-for example, between the Sonora Desert and the Chihuahuan Desert. The Sonora Desert is mostly derived from tropical species from Mexico coming up. Our desert, the Chihuahuan Desert is mostly derived from so called madro tertiary yields, geoflora. They're more related to the plants of the Rockies.DT: To the north?0:34:07 - 2143CR: Uh huh. And so it-that-that-that's-and-and another thing is the rainfall patterns in the-here, our-our major rainfall is in July and August and September. And the rain-in the Sonoran Desert, the major rainfalls are in the winter. So that makes a big difference too. There's been some good studies done on that by some oth-other botanists. I've got to sit up for a while.DT: We talked about the Sonoran Desert and the Chihuahuan Desert. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the land you recently bought out here?0:34:48 - 2143

CR: I bought five whole acres right in the middle of the Terlingua Ranch. And it's plain desert scrub with-with all the-the normal creosote bush and-and the other shrubby species. And...DT: What drew you to it?0:35:06 - 2143CR: Well, the costs, you know, it-it-it was only five hundred dollars for five acres. And that's why I bought it but I wouldn't have been able to buy any land around Marathon now. It-it used to go for a hundred dollars an acre max. And now it's going for twenty-two thousand, three hundred in lots of places right around Marathon and here where these people are moving in. They found out about our climate. And, of course, they'll bring with them the problems. Phoenix is a classic example that people moved out there because of their problem with allergies and then they brought their plants with them and the pollen from them is just-allergies is just as bad as they were back home because they brought their allergenic plants with them. So, it's people screwing it up again. DT: I guess we are a plague on the planet, but thanks for enlightening us on how we may be able to control all that.0:36:11 - 2143

CR: I've-I've enjoyed it. I hope-I hope people will learn and-and try to do something about our problems. Quien sabe..DT: Well, thanks very much.0:36:32 - 2143CR: I've enjoyed it.[End of Reel #2143][End of interview with Chester Rowell]