Carmine Stahl Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: Well, that's interesting. See, I think that what is probably clear as day to you, is probably not apparent to a lot of people, that, you know, there are these changes that happen from season to season and year to year, that most people on the street probably don't notice. And I'm ...

CS: Yes. DT: ... curious if there're other things about southeast Texas that you've seen change in the landscape, ...

CS: Yes.

DT: ... just in the time you've been working down there.

CS: Well, of course the biggest change is--is effected by the big lumber companies.

DT: Oh.

CS: Wood we've gotta have to build houses with. But the big problem there is that the lumber companies have developed a monoculture of pine. Lumber companies own such a big percentage of southeast Texas--all of East Texas, as a matter of fact, which is one of the--the great pine forests of the world.

DT: Uh-huh.

CS: And--the--the companies, though, will--will try to eradicate the hard woods and chop out all of the growth that would be--compete with pine trees, and--and try to bring back nothing but a monoculture of pine--whether planted, you know, or just--or sowed from--from mature mother trees, what-have-you, you know, that they'll leave there--until you got this monoculture. That is extremely negative as far as wildlife is concerned.

DT: Um-hmm. CS: And--wildlife needs a mixed forest. The kind of wildlife we have here in East Texas has had a mixed forest. Hard woods, pines, shrubbery. Glades, some prairie, even in East Texas, and--that kind of thing made the rich wildlife that--that we always had but--but this--they can't live with just pine trees. [Laughs.]

DT: Sure. Well--and I've read--and correct me if I'm wrong ...

CS: Um-hmm. DT: ... but that a lot of these pines are not only sort of exclusive of--of hard woods and other species but they're exclusive of other--genetically different pines, that they're clones of one another.

CS: Yes.

DT: Is that right?

CS: Yes. DT: Hmm.

CS: That's right. 'Course the--the lumber companies work continually on developing--selecting, developing pines that grow faster, that produce its crop, you know, ...

DT: Sure. Sure. CS: ... that produce more for--in less time on less land and--and that kind of thing, just like--the crop of corn. [Laughs.]

DT: Well--well, that's something interesting. You were mentioning the Green Revolution earlier and I'm wondering as a botanist what you think about the agriculture in the U.S. and its use of hybrid seed.

CS: It's a dangerous thing. [Laughs.] The hybrid corn that we have in this country--corn is the biggest cash crop on earth now.

DT: Is it really?

CS: Yes. This--this wonderful gift that the Indians gave us from their agriculture is grown all over the world now and it is the biggest cash crop on earth, exceeding that of--of rice, wheat, all the others.

DT: I didn't know that.

CS: Yeah. As far as money's concerned.

DT: Um-hmm. CS: So much of it of course goes to feed livestock. But it's an extremely important food factor around the world now, too, just as it was the biggest food factor for the Indians.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: And, the Indians grew far more different kinds of corn than we grow now. They grew lots of different kinds of corn. They had blue corn, they had red corn, they had pink corn, they had yellow corn, they had white corn, and in all kinds of varieties and subvarieties and they grew them for specific purposes. They had developed and hybridized corn over a period of some thousands of years, you know, from its origin, which we believe to have been in Mexico and spreading northward and southward. And, corn is such a--a marvelous plant, it--it--it does hybridize easily.

DT: Uh-huh.

CS: But, modern agriculture--the big agricultural universities have concentrated upon developing corn hybrids. Grow it bigger, make more ears to the stalk, make it produce faster. Get more per acre, more per acre, ...

DT: Right.

CS: ... and--and grow it so that it will ship well--store well and ship well, ...

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: ... and all that kind of thing, you know. And as we've done this, we've come down to just a few kinds of corn that're grown in this country now, besides popcorn, and we got--we got a few kinds of corn--a few that're grown primarily for flour, a few that're grown primarily for, like, roasting ears and then--grains that go into livestock food. And, there're just a few kinds, a tiny percentage of the--of the many hybrid forms that the Indians once grew. Now, some real interest is being given again to those old varieties, and there's some effort being made to preserve them--to find them again and preserve them--because they had much more resistance to disease. These modern hybrids depend tremendously upon lots of fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, intensive but--you know, big technical cultivation procedures and that sort of thing.

DT: Sure.

CS: And, if something hits those someday--a blight, such as hit the ...

DT: Well, like, there was one.

CS: ... the Irish potato crop, you know, and produced the Irish potato famine. If something hits the corn like that, the whole world's in trouble.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: The breadbasket of the United States is--is still pretty much the breadbasket of the world, too.

DT: Well, you mentioned that this was an Indian gift, and I notice that you're a real expert on Native Americans and their contributions. I'm curious if you ...

CS: Oh. Not really, I--I've been privileged to know some of the finest anthropologists and archaeologists in Texas and be associated with them and I've had a fascination with this all my life, indeed, and I have had--done a lot of study in it. I'm not a professional archaeologist and don't consider myself an expert there but the thing that has linked my work to that so much is the--the foods, ...

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: ... the plant foods. The--the Indians gave us so many of--more than half of the--of the foods that are grown in agriculture in the world right now were contributed by New World Indians, by Native Americans, north and south. Corn, squash and beans were the three big ones. All the squashes that we eat were first grown by Native Americans. So was the corn, of course. So was all the beans we know. Peas came from the old world, like your field peas and English peas as we call 'em, that kind of thing.

DT: Right. CS: But all the beans we know, from pinto beans and black beans and red beans and kidney beans and navy beans and all those were first grown by American Indians.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: Pumpkins, 'course, and--so many of the cucurbits. And then of course from Central and South American native agriculture we got what we call Irish potatoes, we got sweet potatoes. We got tomatoes. We got--oh, goodness. We got chocolate. [Laughs.] We got ...

DT: I'm sure a lot of people say thanks for that.

CS: ... many fruits, like avocados, of course, you know, and mangoes and that sort of thing.

But--there's still a lot of experimentation being done, a lot of interest now in the amaranths that are--or have been grown for thousands of years also--in Peru, Bolivia, in the Andes, by the Inca peoples and the peoples who preceded them. These amaranths have been shown to have the highest percentage of plant proteins, particularly in the seeds, of any plants on earth.

DT: What's an example of an amaranth? I don't know.

CS: O.K. Here in North America we have some of--there're many species--native species of amaranths, and the ones we have here the farmers call careless weeds.

DT: Yeah. CS: If you get careless, you know, if you're farming, they'll come up and--in the farm rows and all. That's what they'll do.

DT: A weed, not a crop. I mean, from ...

CS: It's a weed. But, ...

DT: ... from an American standpoint.

CS: But now, up in the Midwest, amaranths are beginning to become an important crop. You--you are familiar with canola oil?

DT: Sure.

CS: Canola oil has--is the best possible cooking oil you can get. It has less saturated fat, that kind of thing, and less cholesterol. And it--it is extremely healthy and that comes from amaranth seeds.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: It's made from--from the seeds of amaranths. They're being grown primarily up in the Midwest now, but were grown originally in--in Peru and--and other parts of the Andes range. Um-hmm.

DT: Well, why do you think it was that the Indians were able to bestow us with all these wonderful crops? I mean, do you think it was a genetic diversity of plants that were here originally or that the Indians had a great talent for hybridizing and--and ...

CS: Yeah. Well, 'course, ...

DT: ... developing crops or ...

CS: ... peoples all over the world as they developed began to develop agriculture. I've thought a lot about the beginnings of agriculture, you know, and ...

DT: Uh-huh. CS: ... 'course a lot of research has been done into that and not archaeology. But you can imagine pretty well that agriculture began as accidents that some clever person noticed, you know, that ...

DT: Um-hmm. CS: ... they--as they went out and--hunter-gatherer culture and went through the swamp and went over the hill and down through the meadow and around the edge of the woods and gathered these plants that were edible--that they knew to be edible and brought 'em back in to the cave or the hut or whatever, and threw 'em out in the refuse pile. The refuse pile became itself a nice compost pile--you know, fertilizer. These seeds sprang up there, and there they are growing bigger and healthier than ever, those--those food plants, and they look there and they say, "Hey, this is neat. We got all this stuff right next to the hut here, you know, we don't have to--go way out yonder." So agriculture was born as they began to perceive how they could--could encourage that. And, same sort of process happened, I'm sure, in north and south America. Pardon me, got a little throat tickle. If you'll 'scuse me just a second we'll get a little water.

DT: Sure, good idea! Well you're doing a great job.

CS: This is, I think, a very significant thing for people to recognize--that all of the--plants, all the vegetables, fruits, that we eat were once wild, edible plants a long time ago.

DT: Um-hmm. CS: And our ancestors began to plant those things--to hybridize them, to select them--and agriculture was born. But, whatever we eat right now--tomatoes, potatoes, corn, squash and beans and peas and--and okra and ...

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: ... which came from Africa and all of these things that we eat now--were once wild, edible plants that back in the dawn of human development people found were edible, and I'm sure there was a lot of trial and error going on back then. I'm sure our--the Indians did a lot of trial and error, too, you know, and--and people observe what happens. Here, this fellow goes out and he says, "I'm gonna try this, this looks like it'd be good to eat," you know, and he--he takes a few bites and after a while he--he upchucks and they say, "Oh, well, that wouldn't be so good to eat." [Laughs.]

DT: Yeah. Back to the drawing board.

CS: Or--or maybe it--it does taste good and ...

DT: Um-hmm. CS: ... and maybe he tries it and just--everything's O.K. and the next day somebody else says, "You know, I think I'll try that." But anyway, however, humans found something was good to eat and then, as they began to realize that they could grow that stuff--plant it and grow it right next to wherever they lived, and they could grow large amounts of it there. And they could even save some of it and put it in bins and granaries and things like that, as agriculture began to develop in the Old World and in the New.

People found that they--that some plants sometimes seem to grow bigger than others and have more fruit on 'em, more grain, whatever. And so they said, "Hey, maybe if I"--some bright guy says, "Maybe if I take the seeds from that one, and plant those next year, maybe I'll get more big ones like that."

DT: Uh-huh. CS: And so that happens. That's selection, of course. The selection probably came quite a long time before hybridization. [Laughs.] But that process produced bigger, more, and better and--filled the granaries faster and better and that kind of thing so--that went on and then people began to see that sometimes certain kinds of plants grew a little bit different form. And maybe a couple of plants crossed and--and they could--could determine which ones did that, and so hybridization developed. Hybridization came to aid and abet all--this whole process, the agricultural process.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: And the Indians were certainly doing a lot of selecting consciously, long before Columbus, of the various kinds of--of corns.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: Tomatoes--still, you can go to Peru up in the Andes and you'll find people growing many more kinds of tomatoes there than are grown in the rest of the world.

DT: Isn't that funny.

CS: Yeah. Um-hmm. DT: And--and there're different kinds that take advantage of different climates or different times of the year? What--what ...

CS: Yes.

DT: ... why are there different hybrids?

CS: Yes. They're--'course, hy--people began to discover, too, a long time ago that certain forms of--certain kinds of corn would grow further north in a colder climate. Certain kinds of corn would grow better in a--a desert climate out in the Southwest, in Arizona. And, so, various kinds of hybrids've been--'course and the agricultural universities now, you know, working hard on this kind of thing. We once could not grow apples here in--in this part of Texas. Now we can grow some apples because Texas A&M has worked for years to develop apples that we can grow here in this hot, muggy climate.

DT: Boy, that's ...

CS: Sam Houston and Stephen Austin couldn't grow apples here. They tried it. [Laughs.]

DT: Well, one thing I was interested in, I've been reading a little bit about how people planted things in the early days, ...

CS: Um-hmm. DT: ... and they--they seem to be very interested in how their gardens could produce. It wasn't just to have an aesthetically pleasing ...

CS: Yes.

DT: ... place but also to have something that could provide them nuts and fruits, and I was wondering if you could comment to me, if that's of interest to you. I mean, how some of the early gardens were laid out and why they used the plants they did.

CS: Yes. 'Course the--the most practical, pragmatic thing that was done, of course, was to plant those things in the gardens, lay out those gardens in ways that would produce food. But the aesthetic thing has been a thing that's fascinated me all my lifetime. What is it about flowers that people love so much that from prehistory, in every part of the world, isolated areas of the world--people have wanted to bring flowers into their garden, too?

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: And oftentimes those flowers were planted right along of course with the vegetables. And, flowers--of course, if you got down to the most pragmatic reason for flowers, they're to attract insects so those insects will cross-pollinate them and keep the--keep the vitality of--of the specie. And, so what is it that makes that thing so attractive to humans? We don't want to cross-pollinate with flowers, [laughs], I don't think we see anything sexy about them, you know, but ...

DT: No.

CS: ... but they're beautiful to us, they're--they're marvelous and--and this aesthetic sense in human beings that--that makes them--has made people want to grow flowers almost as early as they were growing vegetables. And, it's been found just recently in archaeology that some burials that were made 90,000 years ago, there is--are remains of flowers then. The flower ...

DT: That's very touching.

CS: ... pollen and--macroscopic remains of those flowers so somebody put flowers in those graves. That--you know, I mean, when human beings were just developing as modern human.

DT: Well, it's interesting--I mean, this is sort of a side ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... a small side light but when I've talked to people about how they first got concerned about environment and so on, ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... they often say, "Well, it's just so beautiful."

CS: Yeah. [Laughs.]

DT: And they remember a spot they'd loved from childhood or from recent days, and that it made 'em feel good. It doesn't have anything to do with the wildlife that lived there or the pharmaceuticals ...

CS: Um-hmm, yeah. [Laughs.]

DT: ... that come out of there or, you know, productive, ...

CS: That's right. Um-hmm.

DT: ... rational reasons but just-- that there's this really--sort of difficult to explain love that people have for ...

CS: Um-hmm. Isn't it difficult to explain.

DT: ... nature's beauty and ...

CS: But it's there so strongly. It's something built in, and--so basic a part of us. We like things green and then we like things bright. We like things ...

DT: Uh-huh.

CS: ... delicate and beautiful, as--as flowers are.

DT: Well, I noticed that you've got some sort of comments on nature's beauty right here and your wife has been kind enough to pass on some of the poems you've written and I would ...

CS: Oh, my goodness.

DT: ... would be delighted if you could maybe look at some of them and tell me what brought you to write these and maybe you'd be willing to read one or two?

CS: If my wife would be so kind as to bring my glasses. [Laughs.]

DT: Well, why don't you--while she's getting your glasses, maybe you could tell us a little bit about how you came to first write some of these and how long you've been writing 'em and so on?

CS: Well, I--I guess I wrote a little poetry when I was a kid.

DT: Uh-huh.

CS: Yeah. Mother and Dad were always encouraging about everything I did. [Claps.] "Oh, isn't that wonderful," you know, like mom and dads are. [Laughs.]

DT: Oh, yeah.

CS: Dumb poetry, you know, but you know how moms and dads are. But, my wife got me interested in poetry again, I guess. 'Course I--I studied--the Romantic poets was one of my big studies when I was in college and then, early English poetry in graduate school and all that kind of thing. I ...

CS: Sure.

CS: ... did a major in it and ... [Misc.]

DT: ... was interested--I didn't know this side of you and I thought we ought to maybe touch on it at some point. But this maybe gives us a chance to ...

CS: Uh, well, we belong to a poetry society out here--the Poets Northwest and Mary Lou got me going with them again and that encouraged me to write some more, which I've done, more recently again. Um-hmm.

DT: And that's something like a swap where you get to write and listen to other people's poems?

CS: Oh, yes, yes. Right. So it's a real nice association where everyone is encouraged, you know, who's interested in poetry and in writing some poetry.

DT: That's great!

CS: And, many different kinds of people there. Some write primarily humorous stuff, some ...

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: ... very serious material, some--you know, free verse and some rhyming verse and all--of all kinds. Haiku, everything you can think of, and ...

DT: Well, then, how do the serious sonnet writers treat the limerick writers, I mean, and...

CS: Oh. [Laughs.] Probably looked down their noses at them. But not in our Society, no. Sonnet writers and limerick writers are--are likely to be the same people.

DT: Well, that's odd.

CS: We--we sometimes have a little contest for, say, writing a sonnet, you know.

DT: Um-hmm. CS: Or writing a limerick or writing some haiku. [Misc.]

DT: Well, most of the poems you've written, are they about nature or other topics, or are they ...

CS: Quite a few of 'em are about nature, I guess. This is about wild geese. This is "When It Rains in Texas."

DT: Monsoon season, as they call it in Houston,...

CS: Yeah. Yeah, this is one I--I sort of enjoyed writing. Right there.

DT: Would--would you share it with us?

CS: Um-hmm. When it rains in Texas, Thunder rolls across the coastal plains, As Houston's multicolored towers stand to greet the gusting wind And sudden rains that cool the heated streets and parching land. On the clouds and building tumult roll, To bend the tall and supple forest pines, And wash the wilderness of dust and dole, While fuses flare on Heaven's power lines. Awake, you halls of Austin, See the tongues of lightning licking at the limestone hills, And crackling on the granite mountain's mains To flood their flanks and fill the graveled rills. And Midland, can you hear the muffled roar and Muttered sound of water falling far, Across the Basin's ancient burning shore, The sands respond to thunder's thrilling jar. The waters come, and powers of the air, In broken, riotous and brash display, With trumpets and with flashing lights Declare across the land a summer holiday.

CS: I like weather.

DT: That was very nice.

CS: I like weather. DT: I had a friend who lived in a high-rise, ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... and I asked him, "Well, why do you live in a high-rise?", because he had a dog ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... at one point and he couldn't have a dog in this high-rise so I know he'd given something up and I was wondering what he was getting in exchange. He said, "Well, it's those--those northers!"

CS: [Laughs.]

DT: You know, to watch that roll across the sky ...

CS: Ah, um-hmm.

DT: ... was just one of the finest things in his life, so maybe you have a compatriot then.

CS: Well, that's interesting, yeah. Oh, I love watching--I was in the Weather Service when I was in the Armed Forces many, many, many years ago, ...

CS: Oh, I know this.

CS: ... the Air Force, the Weather Service, the--I'm a weather buff still, as my wife can certainly tell you. I--[laughs.]

DT: Well, we get some very dramatic weather around here, ...

CS: We do indeed.

DT: ... from hurricanes to northers to ...

CS: Yeah, um-hmm. Here's a little short nature poem.

DT: And what's it about? CS: "The Great Old Oak."The Great Old Oak grew beside the way,And upon it George and Linda carved their love within a heart.And there, too, James and Sarah, youthful lovers, pledged in carving bold for all to see.And Alfred, and his love, Lorraine, did leave testimony of their love.And the Great Old Oak died because of all that damn carving.

CS: [Laughs.]

DT: [Laughs.] Oh. Well, that's very nice.

CS: Oh, goodness.

DT: Nice. Well, thanks for sharing those with us. I didn't know you had that talent.

CS: Oh, well, goodness, I'm not sure it's a great talent at all, not--not a great talent, but I have a little fun with it.

DT: Well, I think it's very difficult to pass on what is special to people, what they really value, and I think poetry is one of the ..

CS: Now this lady ...

DT: ... most elegant ways of doing it. CS: ... this lady is the nature poet really. Fetch your little--your little nature book, "My Nature Book." Yeah, she's got a little book. Nature poetry and drawings, um-hmm.

DT: Well, I'd like to see it. [Misc.]

DT: ... I think while we're on poetry and the things that are intangible, I guess, I'd noticed in your resume that you're an ordained Minister.

CS: Yes. Um-hmm.

DT: A Methodist Minister, is that right?

CS: Um-hmm. That's right.

DT: And I was curious if you could describe whatever tie you see between your spiritual interests and training and the stewardship and environmental concerns that you have.

CS: Very closely related, as far as I'm concerned. I was in the pastoral ministry for some years and then did what effectively was social services and child care ministries for the Methodist Church here for a good many years of my ministry.

[Tape 2 of two, Side B.] CS: But during most of that time, I also was--teaching courses for--at the University of Houston Continuing Ed, Rice University, lecturing at A&M, here and there. You know, people ask me to do these kinds of things at--oh, the Nature Center around Houston, on wild edible plants and southeast Texas ecology. That sort of thing and--the Audubon Society offered me their directorship and--at a time they were without a director and it was actually--I took an early retirement from the ministry and it was a very easy move for me 'cause I'd been doing so much of this other, it really was--as much as--an avocation, vocation--you know, I was--I was involved with all that so much. And, I just feel a real ministry in--in the kind of work I--I have done since then. It's people--people, I--I feel, are the primary focus of--of God's world, but people and nature are so co-joined. We're made of the dust of--of the ground and to dust we will return. We're dust--dust we are because we have within us the same molecules that are in the rocks, and the soil itself.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: We're a product of the earth. We have in us--you know, of course, I--I feel with my theology that we have a living spirit, a soul, and that we're endowed with this by God. But He did create us with a direct relationship to all the rest of the Creation. We live, develop, we die. We're a part of a group of animals on earth called mammals. We have a direct relationship in--in the food that we consume. We're part of the food chain just like everything else, [laughs], and--and we're so integrally dependent upon nature. There's no other place that's a source of the food energies for our life. If we go back--I frankly am not a fundamentalist, ...

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: ... although I have a--a very strong Christian faith--very, very strong, and--and very, very conservative one, actually, but I'm not a fundamentalist. However, if you were a fundamentalist and you went--were to look at the early chapters of the Book of Genesis and--see what God charged human beings with doing, there's a very interesting thing there. 'Course the very first thing God commanded human beings was--after He created 'em was be fruitful and multiply, and boy, have we done a job of that, you know.

DT: Um-hmm. CS: 'Course that was fun, doing that, so--the other thing He did then was that He developed the Garden of Eden, and He put the man and the woman in it, "to dress it and to tend it" is the way the phraseology goes. So the very first job God gave man was to be a gardener, to be a caretaker of the beautiful Creation that He created. And I think that that is really symbolic--you know, there's truth in all of that. There's truth in it. We have the stewardship of the whole earth, and haven't done a real good job with that. We're learning now that--that there're consequences, if we don't do a good job of stewardship of this Creation. It's the only world we have right now, you know. We may have some more later on, I don't know, but it's all we got now, and--it's all we can--we can live in and on and off of.

And--so I feel that--and--and all the rest of this Creation is dependent upon us, too. All these other little critters like that kitty-cat over there and the--and the squirrel outside and--we oughta have some--some feeling for them. It's a world in which, in the present system of things, as God has created it--and sometimes it--really puzzling to us to understand, I guess, all the suffering that takes place--to understand death, ...

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: ... to understand violence. There is violence in nature. There's death out there, there's a lot of times a lot of sorrow and suffering. It's part of the world and it's part of--of our human existence also. But we share all of this with all these other creatures. These other little critters suffer. They have desires. They like life, just as we do. They have fears. And if you get to know the other animals around us--like we know our pets. We know every pet we have, every dog is an individual, every cat's an individual.

DT: Right.

CS: They have their own personality. And, they have their fears and their desires and their pleasures and--and all this kind of thing and--we need to really take that into account.

DT: I'm curious about that because I've read about, you know, was it St. Francis who, you know, loved the smallest bird and ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... and I've read about, apparently there're some monks, who whenever they walk, they take a broom with them so that they sweep the path in front of them so they don't step on and harm any insect. So I'm wondering, is there any sort of hierarchy?

CS: Well, the Janes--the Janes in India do that. Oh, no, I wouldn't go that far. As a matter of fact, ...

DT: Then how do you distinguish between the care and respect that you would give an intelligent creature like a whale that can communicate and has social skills and maybe the lowest insect?

CS: Um-hmm. Yeah.

DT: I mean, is there a different duty to those?

CS: Yeah. The higher the form of life, the more intelligent the specie, I think, the more value it has, both to--to the world, to the--created world, to human beings and to God. But, I really value that--that phrase that Jesus used, "Not a sparrow falls without your Father," you know.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: "And you're of more--be of good cheer. You are--do not fear, you're of more value than many sparrows." But, even that sparrow has value to God somehow and God is aware of that sparrow. And I feel this way, that--that God in His greatness is to sustain and--and continue to imbue--to breathe life into all this Creation--has to be aware of every particle of it, every molecule, every creature, every--every bit of it. So--you know, even insects try to flee their own destruction, even insects like life.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: I saw a cockroach going across the floor in there a while ago.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: He--ran from me, [laughs], ...

DT: [Laughs.]

CS: ... because he knew I'd step on him or do something inimical to his health.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: Yes, there are things that we have to do. We have to eliminate pests within our own bodies by medicines, to survive. The things we have to do in this world to survive, we have to--unless--unless you're a vegetarian, we have to kill animals for food.

DT: But then I guess, by the same token, if you didn't have the bacteria in your stomach you couldn't survive.

CS: Oh, that's right. That--that--they're necessary ones there, too. Right, absolutely.

DT: Well, ...

CS: We're all inter-linked in one way or another. And I think that we've been very cruel--humans have been very cruel to the Creation in many, many ways but--I think God also calls man. The--the Hebrews were given a good many directives in their laws, anciently, for taking care of critters. "You shall not muzzle the oxen that treads out the grain." You've gotta give him his share, too. He's the one that's sweatin' and workin' and pulling the--pulling the big stone wheel around, you know.

DT: Right. Right.

CS: And, don't be cruel to animals. I--I think this is--that's just as much biblical as--as--as any other--directive we have. All these--all these other critters--are important, too, and unless we--we can be benevolent to some extent, in our Lordship of this Creation--O.K., we're given dominion. "You shall have dominion over--all the creatures of the earth, the fish of the sea," and what-have-you, you know. We do. We do, verily we do. But will we be cruel masters or will we be good ones? Will we be benevolent ones or will we be Christ-like ones? To me, you know, ...

DT: Right.

CS: ... will we be Christ-like? Gentle, kind, loving, as much as we can be within this--within this Creation as it is at present, within this--this imperfect world.

DT: A big responsibility and pretty daunting.

CS: Um-hmm. Absolutely.

DT: Well, when you--when you talk to kids and people that you interpret ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... nature to, what do you try and pass on? I mean, it's obvious that you have a faith and a concern about it that's very important to you but how do you pass that on?

CS: O.K.

DT: I mean, like your father did to you, ...

CS: Uh-huh.

DT: ... when he would show you about plants, ...

CS: Yeah.

DT: ... and your mother as well?

CS: One of the things I try to pass on first is this sense of stewardship and connection with the natural world. Again, we're part of it. And dust we are of--these other creatures out there have feelings, too.

We sometimes bring out--we have connections with the wildlife rehabilitation folks who ...

DT: Oh.

CS: ... try to--rehabilitate animals that have been struck by cars, animals that've been shot by B-B guns--birds, what-have-you, you know. Rehabilitate them, the goal being to get them back to where they can be released to the wild and have their life again. Sometimes we can't because perhaps a wing is--is broken off and this--this hawk will never be able to fly again. It--it can't live out there 'cause it can't catch its prey.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: And so we make it--an educational feature, and we take care of it. We give it its life, we give it its food and we--and usually they learn that they're being taken care of pretty well, too, you know, and--and they become sort of like a pet but that's not the goal of this. We--we don't really want pets, you know. We want to turn these birds and animals and what-have-you loose in--to live their life as a wild creature, that's what they are. But, as an educational thing, we can bring out Istacapay[?], the hawk who is blind in one eye. We--we are not sure exactly why he was found that way, but because a hawk has to focus with two eyes on his prey he can't--he can't make a living out there.

DT: No.

CS: So we have him. He's a magnificent creature--red-tailed hawk. And our rehabber has 'course a steel-reinforced glove, on which he sits with his powerful talons and looks at everybody with that frowning, hawk-like look, you know, and--we bring out Moon, the possum. Moon was kept by some people as a pet and--unfortunately most wild creatures don't make good pets and people don't know how to take care of 'em. They fed him poor nutrition so his feet never developed, so that he can walk or climb. He can't climb at all. He can barely walk across the floor. But he's a neat little animal, too, and--for the kids to see. We have the little screech owl that flew into a car and--knocked himself kinda cuckoo. We--he's--he's not very smart, you know, and probably--and he definitely wouldn't make it out there. We called him--Gump.

DT: Gump.

CS: Gump. [Laughs.]

DT: That's very nice.

CS: [Laughs.] Well, he is really a cute little animal. And he will sit there and blink at the kids and he winks, you know, one eye at a time and that sort of thing. And kids--just fall in love with these little critters right away.

DT: Is there something instinctual, do you think, in the kids that they have some relationship--rapport with--the animals?

CS: I think they see that these are not just--scary creatures out there in the wild, you know. Or hooting in the night, that kind of thing, but--are live creatures with feelings, emotions, and--and trepidations and--a sense of--you know, friendliness and curiosity, too, sometimes. The kind of emotions that we have, ...

DT: Right. CS: ... to some degree at least as the normal ...

DT: Surely.

CS: ... and--and the kids began to perceive them as--having some value in the world, and--then they began to get I think a little feeling of stewardship because--if you--if you appreciate the role of an animal in nature--and while we're showing 'em these critters, and they're enjoying looking at 'em and all, we can tell them the benefits in the world and--and the importance of predators, because predators cull the sick and the--and the old, and--the marginal life from--from a specie to keep that specie strong, healthy. Very, very important. If it weren't for these hawks, and even those snakes over there in the cases, we'd be overrun with rodents, we would not be able to grow grain crops. Even now the farmers lose many, many--several billion dollars worth of grains in this country every year to rodents, because the rodents not only eat the grains in the fields, they--they eat 'em in the granaries and the bins and the barns and all that. Farmers used to go out--a little bit more primitive time--used to go out in the woods up in the Midwest--the grain farmers and--and find themselves a big rat snake somewhere under a log and catch that rat snake and bring it in and put it in his barn, because they'll take out the rats that're in there eating his grain.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: And, some studies have been made in recent years showing how important snakes are. I'm not a snake lover, you know, and it's a little bit hard to really relate to a snake, like maybe you can relate to a little furry rabbit or squirrel or something like that.

DT: Yeah. Yeah.

CS: But, their importance is enormous in--in mouse and rat control in this country, tremendous! They are worth billions every year to the farmers, but--with their rodent control.

DT: Well, I imagine the dollars and cents of it, you know affects people and they understand it then and ...

CS: Um-hmm. Yeah, that's right.

DT: ... and it's something that goes to the bottom line and they ...

CS: That's right. And then maybe they won't ...

DT: See that it's ...

CS: ... get the hoe or the gun and--and kill every snake they see after this, you know, that--[laughs]--snakes need to be respected.

DT: I see.

CS: But--um-hmm.

DT: And I guess, using these animals, both the furry ones and the slinky ones ...

CS: Um-hmm. [Laughs.]

DT: ... like the snake, you can maybe open these kids' minds and then you can tell them some of these facts about not only are the animals your friends, but they're also something that ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... is valuable to all of us.

CS: Extremely. Yeah, absolutely.

DT: I see.

CS: That--that helps them then, too, like I say, to relate to the world and to appreciate it. To appreciate the complexity of it, ...

DT: Uh-huh.

CS: ... the inter-relatedness of all life.

DT: Well, ...

CS: And I think--maybe, like it's always done for me, give a sense of--of awe and marvel at--at God's mind in creating all of this.

DT: Yeah! Well, you know, I think it's wonderful. It's an incredible gift that God gives us - this marvelous diverse world, and in a different sense that you too pass this along to other people: your love of nature. Often I've found that it's a particular place means something to people. I'm curious if there's a place that you can think of, that you think is very beautiful, very special, that you could tell me about. Is there something that comes to mind? You know, maybe out at Jesse Jones Park or elsewhere?

CS: Well, I guess ...

DT: Big Thicket or ...

CS: ... I--I--although I live in the flat lands now, I love mountains and--and real topography. But I--many beautiful places in this world. I've been to tropical jungles, I've been--out on the ocean, love the ocean, and been up in the mountains and--the High Plains are beautiful, sometimes where there's absolutely no feature but a horizon, you know. It's the bigness and the openness ...

DT: Oh, yeah.

CS: ... of that. All--all aspects of the earth to me are beautiful, really, the natural world. But, I guess there're some--places that will always be specially--in my mind as--as especially beautiful from--my childhood in the Ozarks, which is really a pretty place.

DT: Yeah. CS: In the mountains, the springs--clear springs running over rocks and columbines knotting around a little waterfall and--little valleys, little glades where wild iris bloom and ...

DT: Um-hmm. CS: ... things like that. You know, there's--but I love these big pine forests--pine hardwood forests down here, too. They're marvelous for the richness of--of the woods here. I like the winter woods. It's ...

DT: Um-hmm. CS: ... there's something about the openness and the cleanness of the winter woods that--even the bare grass in the meadows and the glades has some kind of warmth about it to me that--that I really like. The big marshes down here on the Coast? They're wonderful, too, with all the rich life they have.

DT: Um-hmm. Well, I know you've taken tours down to--I think this was Galveston Island State Park and ...

CS: Oh, many times, yeah. [Laughs.] And ...

DT: And what do you show people when you go there, what's a typical trip down there you ...

CS: I haven't been down there in a while. I--took wild edible plant trips down there with people, overnight ones. We were--had permission to do that even before the park opened down there years ago, ...

DT: I see.

CS: ... and afterward. That marsh, you know, in--on--in the park there and--in fact, all up and down is one of those--wetlands that is so rich as a producer of life. Most of the things that the sport fishermen know as--as their sport fish, like the speckled trout and the red fish and--and also the shrimp. 'Course mollusks, the whole chain of life that--that feeds all this in-shore and off-shore life down there, develops in the marshes.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: The brackish marshes. And--so they're very rich and those marshes are full of--very interesting plant life, too. Cattails, bulrushes--beautiful big bulrushes that the Indians used to weave and that they ate the tubers of and--and make mats to cover their dwellings with, and the many interesting forms of plant life along the dunes there, the wild--the Morning Glories, goat's foot creeper, the--the glass wort, which is another good edible plant, salty but pleasant-tasting. Many actually good edibles that grow right along the--the bay edges, the little inlets and--salty but ...

DT: Do you--by the way, do you--do you still give some of these tours and classes?

CS: I haven't done much in--in the last few years because I--health problems and--and my--the demands of my work.

DT: Um-hmm.

CS: At least once a year we do a--a wild edible plant walk at the park there and I take people out and we'll go and--they'll sample nibbles and then we'll come in, cook up a couple of things and make some wild teas and--do that kind of thing, just a one-day ...

DT: Well, when is that?

CS: Beg pardon?

DT: What time of year is that usually?

CS: Usually in the spring time. We have a--a spring hike set, and I don't have our schedule right here but it's--I believe this one's in early April, in which we will do some of that, around the park. Be delighted to have you along, [laughs], if you like bus ...

DT: Well, I was wondering if I could get on the mailing lists because ...

CS: Sure, I'd be delighted. Um-hmm.

DT: ... and maybe I could trundle this thing along and get you in action as you're interpreting some of this.

CS: Oh, well, bless your heart. Be delighted to have you along on any of those.

DT: Oh. CS: We do a lot of walks in which we point out some wild edible plants but just--as a matter of incidence, in--in pointing out a lot of other things. The red bud trees are starting to bloom right now.

DT: Oh. Heavens.

CS: And red bud flowers are delicious, [laughs], absolutely.

DT: I didn't know that!

CS: The Indians loved red bud blossoming time. You can reach up and take a--a whole--get a big handful out of just a--a little section of a branch. They grow up and down the branches in such profusion, you can fill up a good-sized pail with red buds and the tree'll never miss 'em, there're so many on it. And, you can bring those in, wash 'em in a colander and mix 'em with your salad. They make a bright, beautiful salad and they're tasty. They have a--sort of a sweet and tart taste at the same time. You just pick 'em off the tree if you want to and eat 'em. I let kids do that there in the park, you know, when we're walking around.

DT: Well, that's great.

DT: And the adults and--it's always a surprise.

CS: Try that on vanilla ice cream. That's great.

DT: Vanilla ice cream. Well, we have some red buds in--at home.

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: We got some--I think--somebody told me it was Eastern red bud and then some Mexican red bud?

CS: Yeah. Either of 'em are fine.

DT: Doesn't matter.

CS: Um-hmm, Yeah, that's right. Both of them are edible.

DT: Well, I need to join you on one of these tours.

CS: Be delighted to have you along.

DT: We can keep in touch about that and again, this has been really interesting for me. I feel a little bit embarrassed because I've asked all these questions and I feel like you may have something to add, that--without me ...

CS: Um-hmm.

DT: ... leading you around, trying to be nosey and ...

CS: Well, no, I--I think that the questions you've asked are--are probably the most pertinent ones, ...

DT: Well, is it ...

CS: ... in this whole area. The thing of education--people in nature, and the environment I think is extremely important, and that education is going on. Now I'm impressed with the environmental education that schools are doing, particularly the elementary schools, and I think that's really wonderful. We do it--that's really why--why we're there with our park. We have thousands of school kids every year, you know, that we take about on these nature walks and ...

DT: Uh-huh. CS: ... and our living history walks and our pioneer homestead and that kind of thing. But I think the more people really understand and know about nature, the better stewards they'll be of the world, because they come to appreciate how interrelated all things are in this world.

DT: Well said! [Applauds.]

CS: Thank you. Thank you. [Laughs.] DT: Thanks a lot. I guess I'll call it a day. I know you probably had enough!