Diane Wilson Interview, Part 1 of 2

DT: My name is David Todd. It's October 24, 2003 and we're in Seadrift, Texas and I'm speaking for the Conservation History Association of Texas and have the good fortune to be interviewing Diane Wilson, who comes from a long line, four generations, of shrimpers. And has also been an activist, working for the public health of the community here and for the health of the bay and the surrounding area. And I wanted to take this chance to thank her for talking to us.

00:02:01 - 2287 DW: Thank you very much for coming and I-I'm glad of the opportunity.

DT: Thank you. Diane, I was hoping we might start by how your interest and apparent love for the outdoors might have gotten started? If there was a parent or a friend or some kind of early experience that introduced you?

00:02:22 - 2287 DW: Okay. Well, I guess my-all of my work on the-in the environmental field, all of it basically comes from my identity with the water. And I have-like I said, I'm a fourth generation fisherwoman and I have spent my entire life on the bay.

And when I was very young, I would-I would go shrimping with my-with my dad and I can remember-I-I was probably five years old and I can remember coming to the bay and the bay-it was-it was a woman and it was-I could see her, I could feel her personality. And she was-she was like a grandmother and she had this long gray hair. She had this long dress that kind of flowed out into the water. And when I was a kid, she was real. And she had this personality of this old wise woman. And so I-and she really loved me and when you're one of seven kids and women aren't considered too valuable

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in this part of the country, so to come to the bay was like coming home. And-and I mean, she was always, always welcoming. She would say like, well, hello Diane. You know, it's like it's so good you're down here at the bay. And so I-so the bay was a person and I-and it was-and-and I-and I guess, you know, you-you could get a psychiatrist and he would say it was a little bit of a mystical thing and it was. Being on the water was-you were-you were a part of it. You-matter of fact, I used to feel like my skin would-my-my molecules would separate and the water would move into them. And so th-there was-there was no division and so, I know my environmental lawyer used to call it a sense of place. And I-I-I-I never knew what that word was until-or that phrase was until he said. He said Wilson, you got a sense of place. And I guess I do, it's-and-and it's also, I'm sure, what the Native Americans-what they-

00:04:39 - 2287 when-wh-wh-when they talk about a mountain or when they talk about a stream or the trees. When they say they have spirits, it's like, they're not fooling. I mean, it's real and when I was little, I saw it and I-and I never forgot it. And so, my environmental battles has-when I fought, I fought for that-for that woman. She wasn't-she wasn't a thing to me. She was a person. She was a-she was kin to me. And-and so, actually, probably my passion started there when I was five years old.

(misc.)

DT: Diane, when we speaking earlier, you said that Lavaca Bay has a special connection and love for you and I was wondering if you could also tell us if the bay has personality and different moods that might be expressed with the hurricanes and the tides and the northers that change it in so many ways?

00:05:55 - 2287 DW: Well, I know when-when I was young, we always went shrimping on the day before a norther would blow in because when-when-when you're a fisherman, you know when the shrimp will come out of the mud. You know when they will start coming together and they will bunch up in parts of the bay and if you are-and if you're real versed on-on shrimping, you know where you can catch them. So the weather plays a big part to how it affects the water and whether the tide, because when you-when you go out in the morning, you notice the level of the tide, especially notice the moon. What phase is the moon? And-because you-you got an idea about shrimp are going to be moving out and when it's real cold weather, it's when the shrimp start moving totally out of the bay and into the passes or down the-the-the intercoastal waterway. And-but I-when I was young, I always went out-when-when we would spend the night out on

00:07:00 - 2287 right before a norther would come. And so you'd be out there on the bay, on-on that old creaking boat and you'd be-and I always slept on top of the cabin of the boat-and you would have this norther, just this fresh norther, just come blowing in and-and the whole boat would rock and-and sometimes I would have a quilt and the wind would be blowing so hard it would take my quilt. It'd just pitch it out in the middle of the bay. But-but I-I think my favorite time was when the water was rough. I remember one time my-my-I was shrimping and my-my neck got caught in the block of one of my-the ropes got caught. So I had to scale the mast pole with a knife in my teeth and get right to the top and that mast was just-I mean, the whole boat was rocking and you could just see all of that water. And it was this gray water. And it was just wild in the

00:07:56 - 2287 rain and I have never felt that free in my life. And it was such-it was just-it-it-it's-it's-it-it just conveys its power and its feeling of freedom and-and so-and so, I guess, I've-I've seen it where it was slick calm and it was like a mirror and I guess my favorite has always been just seeing its power. Because it's-it's very-it's very-it talks very loud. No, you definitely know the-the-the personality of the water when it's-when it's blowing like that. And I know, a couple of times-I usually go out shrimping by myself, but a couple of times, I've had a couple of women around town that would say, you know, they-they want to be my deck hand. And it was like, (?), oh, all right. You know, and I-and-and I really-I like going out by myself because it's-it's the quietness and-and you-and you-you get this almost meditative thing between the water and the boat and the marshes and especially when you leave in the morning and it's pitch la-black and all you do is you know you're headed south. And you're headed into

00:09:11 - 2287 the wind and it's-it's-it's-it's wonderful heading out like that. So when you got a deck hand, they talk a lot. So you know-you have to put up with it, so that's why I generally didn't have deckhands. But I would have these women that would-a couple of women that would go out with me and they'd see a little black cloud forming in the-in-in the west. You know, you could-you could tell when a little squall was coming up and they'd say well, Diane, don't you think we need-we need to head in now. We-I think we need to head in now. And I was like oh, no. Oh, no. This is going to get-and it's-and it's wonderful. I love it when a squall breaks in or I love it when I-I've been out there when tornadoes were forming, they were just-they were just popping all over. You know, and-and-and the sky gets totally green and you start-you start

00:10:01 - 2287 seeing these waterspouts and-and it's exhilarating. It's-and-and it's-and it's got to be energy. It's just this energy in the water, in the wind, in that boat and I mean, it's just-it's just this commingling of all this energy and you-you-you've-you've never felt so much alive as when you're there.

And-and so-and-and-and I've been through-matter of fact, this house has been through, I think, about four hurricanes. This town has probably been through that many. Matter of fact, Hotel Lafitte down there. True story. The-when the tidal wave came through, it went through the upstory-second story window and out the other side. Boats went down the middle of Main Street and some people lose their boats totally to (?) down there. And the last hurricane, I was right here and there's a little 100 mile an hour wind. I think it-eventually, it was-they said it was 100 and-they clocked it at about 112. And that was exhilarating, watching that storm come through. And it was just-and the thing is, I didn't realize it comes in-it comes in from every direction. It comes from the north and it comes from the west and

00:11:19 - 2287 then-because I was watching the whole thing through these windows. And then, you get in the eye of the storm and I mean, it's dead calm. Sun comes out, it's gorgeous. Even people got in their trucks and drove around town. And then, suddenly it starts coming from the south and it's like, oh, no. There was nothing on these windows. And so I-I tried to hurry up and get something up and then I was sitting there holding them and then the wind started, 100 miles an hour, right through there and so I just let it go. And it just-matter of fact, it was blowing the mud-it was picking up the water and just whipping it through the house. And the only way I could keep the mud out of that other room was I got a carpet off the floor and I nailed it to the doors, so-but it was-it exhilarating. And I-yeah.

DT: The energy of the bay, it sounds like, gives you a sense of exhilaration and enthusiasm.

00:12:19 - 2287 DW: Oh, yeah.

DT: It doesn't frighten you. 00:12:22 - 2287

DW: It doesn't-it doesn't frighten me at all. I-I think I've been-I-I've been-I've-I've-I've nearly drowned out there on the bay a couple of times. And-and-and I don't swim at all. But I don't swim at all and I don't-I don't do fun, playful things. You know, I don't go out and-I don't think I've ever been in a swimming pool. And-but I-I liked being on the water and I'm always usually in a boat or I'm in a-a-in a skiff. And so I've-I've never learned how to swim and-and what was I talking about.

DT: You say you almost drowned.

00:13:05 - 2287 DW: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well-well-well, when I-when I got my first boat, it was a crab boat. And so, I go out by myself and-and because I had a couple of little kids and my mother was always afraid I was going to drown, fall off and drown, and that she was going to be left to raise the kids. I mean, she can't stand-you know, Bill was my dad's name. She's like Bill, you better put some rails on that boat. And so-so they did. They went and put these little kindergarten rails around my boat so I wouldn't fall off and drown. And-and one day, I guess the bolt came out of the rails and so the rail fell off. And you get so used to that rail, twice that day, I went-I was throwing the deck bucket over to wipe-wipe the deck off, I leaned against the rail, there wasn't no rail and I just went (?). And I did that twice in one day. And then-and then, when I've been out on

00:13:59 - 2287 a-a-trotlining, I got a skiff and go trotlining, half the time, you're boat is nearly sinking because it gets so rough, you know, and it blows over. And so you got swift-you know, you got fish that are swimming in the boat and-and you got a hook that you're grabbing and so you got to stop what you're doing and just head out as fast as you can and start pulling all the plugs. And then, you get all the water out and you plug them back in again. (inaudible) so you're-you're always in a state of near drowning. And it's a-and-and you-and you get used to living on the edge like that. And it's-it's-it's not frightening. It's a-it's a little bit exhilarating. They always say-I know I've read and they said there is nothing like bullets going over your head to make you feel really alive. And there's something like nearly drowning that just-just suddenly wakes you up. So, yeah.

DT: Can you tell us about what the routine, the pattern is for shrimping and crabbing and, I think, currently, you fish for black drum?

DW: Yeah, that's right.

DT: How do you do that?

00:15:14 - 2287 DW: Well, I started-like I said, I started working on a shrimp boat when I was five years old. And I was-and shrimping is, first of all, it's seasonal. You would have a spring run and then you would have a fall run. And when I was young, it was a time when-it-it was-it was almost a ceremonial thing. You would have the beginning of a whole new season and there was a celebration and everybody was going around and fixing their boats and stringing out cable and hauling out nets and-and changing this part on their motor and-and even on the day before the season opened, it was like one day, it all opens up. And so people would go out and they would tie up together-they would anchor out and they would have cooked meals together and pass coffee around and-and you would hear more wild shrimp stories on those boats late at night. And then the next morning, you would put out that first day of shrimping of the whole season. And that's the way it used to be.

And-and used to, you could have those two seasons and it

00:16:29 - 2287 could get you from one-because it was like-like the first was in the spring, so-so you've got a couple of months where-where you're not making anything. You're just fixing your net or hauling out your boat and-and then, you do the fall season and that will tide you through until the next spring. And rarely, they-they-they didn't used to combine, like they didn't do the shrimping and the oystering and the crabbing. You-you just had specialty that you did and you used to-could make it. And I-and I'm not talking big money. I'm just talking you-you get by. And that's mainly what shrimpers do because this is not, you know, this is kind of a low class town. You know, we-we don't have a lot of middle class people here. It's, you know, and I can remember five, six

00:17:22 - 2287 thousand dollars was-was a good year. That's what you made. And-and so, but-but now, it's-the shrimping has gotten s-the-the catches have gotten so poor. Like, when I was younger, you could get a thousand pounds in one drag. Easy. I mean, nothing but you pull up a net, it is pure shrimp. And you could-and you could make a decent living. And now, you can go-and even when I was running the fish house, I would have shrimpers that would go out all week long, go in the hole, and still owe for ice. You know, I-and I mean, make nothing at all. You know, like they-you know, they still-still owed 25 dollars for the ice.

And-but it's like, the thing-the reason why they keep doing it is is that is who they are. It's not a-it's not a job. It is a-it's a way of being. It's their identity, you know, and even all these years of being an activist and environmentalist and working in the peace movement, people ask me what I am and I still say I'm a fisherwoman. And that is my identity because that is-these men, this is who they are and-and-and it's-and it's-and it is dying. You know, when-when my

00:18:51 - 2287 grandfather was still fishing, the nets were the-the gill nets were still legal and, you know, and now, you know, I-I used to have a gill net hanging, matter of fact, in honor of my grandfather because that's what he was. He was a red fisherman. He was one of the-one of the first ones in this whole town and he-he raised all his kids and-and that was who he was. And-and I used to have a gill net hanging up on that wall right there and it was illegal. It was illegal. If Parks and Wildlife-they could've come and hauled my ass in. You know, because, you know, nets-gill nets are illegal. And-and-and just like the-the crabbing. When I first started crabbing, it was probably about 15 people that were crabbing and matter of fact, it was before the Vietnamese came into Seadrift and I probably crabbed for like five years. And you, you know, you bring in-you might make 25 dollars, you might make 50 dollars, you know. And-and-and that's the way the fishing and the shrimping and the oystering is. It's very, very seasonal.

00:20:08 - 2287 Sometimes you make a little, sometimes you don't. It's just kind of like gambling and you keep thinking you're going to make it big. You know, this is-this is the day. This is the day. You're going to make a killing and-and-and so that's-that's probably what keeps them going out, you know. They keep thinking that they're going to-they're going to find that place where they can finally get ahead. And-and, like I said, now-now that they-they don't. It's just a subsistence. It's what they call scratching. You just scratch and try to pull in, you know, hundred pounds is-is a big deal. And then you got a price that they haven't got. You know, they're getting the price for shrimp what they got four decades ago. I mean, nothing. They get nothing for their shrimp and they can't-you know, and when you're paying 50 to 75 dollars a day for fuel, you're paying for the ice. You can't afford a deck hand. You can't afford insurance of any kind, insurance on the boat, health insurance. Nobody's got health insurance. I've never had

00:21:17 - 2287 health insurance day in my life. None of my kids never had health insurance. So it's-it's-it's actually a-a-a real tragedy.

You know, I've-I've-I've-I've seen-felt like I've seen the whole spectrum of it. I've seen it where it was an honorable thing to do, where-where men were honorable, where they were well-respected, where they could feed their children and I've seen it now where-matter of fact, sportsmen consider this town an outlaw. They say we're outlaws.

And-and-and I remember, even when I was shrimping, there was a time when it started changing. And I remember even when-this is probably-maybe when I was like 20 and I was shrimping with my dad, it was like

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every-everything you did was-was possible-possibility of being illegal. Like-like, say, the shrimp count were 36-40's, which is legal size shrimp. And you can take shrimp and that you could-you can count them one way and they'll be 40-50's, you can count them one way, they'll be 36-40's. So it-they're-they-they can be anything you really want them to be.

DT: This is the count per pound?

00:22:36 - 2287 DW: Yeah, this is the count per pound for shrimp and that's the way you tell what size your shrimp are. You take like two pounds of shrimp, you put them in a two pound little weighing thing and you count them out. And if they're 36-40's, which was legal or they're 40-50's, which was borderline and-but it-anybody could take those shrimp and anybody could count them different. It's how you count them. You know, like if-if their heads are broke off or if part of them broke off, you know, you don't count this one.

And so-and so, you could go out, spend all day shrimping, thinking you're catching legal shrimp and the game wardens could come through and it was like, they could confiscate your shrimp, confiscate your net and give you a 200 dollar fine. And so-and so you-you-a lot of shrimpers got where-well, a matter of fact, the majority of them

00:23:32 - 2287 that got were-you-you never knew what the game wardens were going to do. And sometimes game wardens, which was not uncommon for a game warden to say, you know, I could use a basket of shrimp. And so you'd meet the game warden down there on the Intercoastal, little obscure place and he-they back up with their truck and you put over a load of shrimp for them.

So they-so, you know, shrimpers were very wary of the game wardens. And so it became a little game like cops and robbers. And it was-it was like a game. And I-I remember 20 boats from Seadrift, all hiding up in-up around Mesquite Bay, just hiding up, waiting out the game wardens. You know, and you-you had secret signals for when the game wardens were coming and, you know, if you're coming in the dock and there's game wardens around, it's like you put three tires up so you don't have to sign the game warden. So you just-so there was always-there was

00:24:35 - 2287 always a game going on about who was out and what they're doing and a lot of them had aliases. You know, my-my brother, you know, he had an alias. He would never give his real name on the radio because it-you know, shrimpers always talk, well, you know, I'm on Mesquite Bay and maybe I got a little-a little basket on that drag and, you know, and that it-it would never give it's name because you figured the game wardens were listening so, you know, his thing was Sanchez. That was his alias. So.

DT: Well, can you tell me why the yields were declining and the regulations were getting so tight and difficult for you all to make it?

00:25:18 - 2287 DW: Well, I've got my opinion about how-how some of this-some of these issues started. And I kind of like got a little bit of the inside scoop on some of it and some of it is legitimately environmental and some of it-it's like a class war. And like a long time ago, Seadrift used to have a Parks and Wildlife-they had a ramp, they had a office, they had some-a biologist there. And one of them was Ray Childress. And one day, the Parks and Wildlife officials, they called all Parks and Wildlife biologists to go to Rockport and they were going to have a little workshop. And so, the-the management told the biologists, they said, oh, we want you all to-if-if there was this theoretical-if there was this theoretical depletion of redfish, we want you to devise and see what you would do as a management plan. So it-and it was just theory. It was like this is just a

00:26:37 - 2287 theory; you know, a hypo-a hypothesis. And so, the biologists, they sit down and figured well, if-if there was a depletion of redfish, you know, we would say this or we would say that. And the next day, in the Corpus Christi Caller Times, a story was leaked to the sportsman writer and the headlines were depletion of redfish. And so, suddenly, it became from a theory of a depletion to an outright loss of a, you know, of a species. And-and then, even when it started going to the legislation, you had Parks and Wildlife with their set of data and you had-you had Fish and Wildlife with their whole set of data. And I-I-they were totally opposite. I mean, Parks and Wildlife said 60 percent of the redfish were taken by the outlaw fisherman and 16 percent were taken by the sportsmen and Park-I mean, U.S. Fish and Wildlife said just the opposite. Is that it was about 16 or 17 percent is taken by the commercial fishpers-person and the rest by the sportsmen because there's such large number of sportsmen. So there was this c-

00:28:00 - 2287

absolute conflict of data. Then you take into who sits on Parks and Wildlife Commissioner and all the very rich sportsmen groups, you know, like GCCA, Walter Fondren, Perry Bass. They were commissioners. And, matter of fact, even when the-The Catch A Thief program, where they get helicopters in-tracking and looking for outlaw fishermen, you know, that's sportsmen money coming in to tracking down outlaw fisherman. So there's this agenda and if-and the-one of their largest sportsmen group is the Gulf Coast Conservation. It used to be Gulf Coast Conservation, now it's changed to Coastal Conservation. And you sit down and talk with them, I've talked with their executive director and they'll be real frank with you. It's like their objective is to get all the fishermen, every net, out of the bay. And it's-and it's-so it is not so much the environmental issues, it's it gets to be a class issue. And-and, I guess, that is-that is some of the tragedy of it because-because the fishermen, they don't have spokespersons.

00:29:21 - 2287

They are not viewed-they're not viewed well. They're-they're outlaws. They're rapers of the bay. They're plowing up the bays and, you know, and-and like-like, when they were doing the red fish bill, it was like there was nothing but a pack of-of outlaws out here. And, matter of fact, they even did a sting operation in this town and they hauled off 18 fishermen and threw them in jail. Huge bail money they had to come up and matter of fact, one of them was my like a 75 year old uncle and his deck hand that was in World War I, he was so old. You know, and a couple of them was like, well, like young boys. That fellow who was doing the sting operation, he had went undercover, they'd given him money and say, you know, get someone to buy his-you can their boat motor or buy their boat. Tell them to get us a redfish. Because they wanted the legislation of-to outlaw net-netting and the arrests to coincide. And it did, it was like a day apart. And-and so they arrested all these people. They banned nets and the end

00:30:34 - 2287 result was-I re-I remember one of them. It was this young boy that had never fished a day in his life, but-but the man bought him a boat and motor and said go get me a redfish. So-so he did and it was such a financial hardship for the family that he-he took-took a shotgun and-and blew his head off. And so, you know, and-and-and not a whole lot of people, you know, nobody didn't to know those-know those stories. And, you know, they just thought, well, good riddance. They're just-they're just outlaws and so. So it's-so I-when-when I-when I look at the fisheries, it's a-it's a tragedy. I-it's just a tragedy because they're-it's misunderstood and-and-and then, when the regulations start tightening down-and a lot of it's politics because you can see where, you know, lobbyists and money for financial campaign funds. You know, we tracked all that. I think even Texas Monthly did a huge article and, you know, it's real easy to track the funding and-but they just don't have spokesperson and the thing that makes a fisherman a fisherman is that he's so independent.

But it's the thing that's killing him now because he can't get two fishermen to organize. He can't-two of them

00:31:53 - 2287 won't agree. I mean, it can be-they can be literally dying and they won't agree on the same type of action. So it's very-it's very hard for the fishermen to fight for their livelihood.

And-and it's also-and it's in-it's-came to the point where they see the sportsmen and the environmentalists as-as out to get them. And so, you know, and that's where I've ran into a lot of problems because here I am a fisherman-I've fished a lot longer than some of those fellows and-you know, and they're calling me an environmentalist and I'm out to get their jobs and I guarantee you, I've had a couple of them tell me they was going to pitch me off the boat or meet-there's going-I was going to open the door one day and have a shotgun in my face. Because they get-they get pretty aggravated with it. So.

(misc.)

DT: Diane, we were just talking about the competition between sports fishermen and commercial fishermen. And I understand one of the other threats that are affecting the shrimp and the commercial shrimpers and these shrimp farms that are on the mainland. And I was wondering if you could talk about the effect they've had on your life and those in the community around here?

00:33:20 - 2287 DW: Okay. I-the-the shrimp farms have become a major obstacle for the-the fisheries regaining their foothold. And, matter of fact, they're almost like dealing a deathblow to it. I know, right now, about 90 percent of the shrimp eaten in the United States is provided by shrimp farms and the general public doesn't realize that, you know, they go to Red Lobsters, or they go to one of these seafood places and they-and they think they're eating good old, homegrown, wild Texas shrimp and actually it's from Ecuador or Vietnam or South America. And so, one, you have the Texas fishermen or the American fishermen that are having to fight these imports that come from these

00:34:42 - 2287 shrimp farms.

And, and they've already shown that these shrimp farms are very destructive. Like, you get these huge-they're almost like ponds-and because you need this huge amount of water, they get them very close to the coast, so they have absolutely destroyed whole mangroves. I know, when I was-I went to Taiwan and they had shrimp farms and because it uses so much water, you start running scarce on water. So what they ended up doing instead of pulling in freshwater, they were using contaminated water and they were flooding the same type of contaminated water over and over again. And you not only have antibiotics that are added to these-to these shrimp that you're going into these spaces to make them grow, to make them uniform, but you also-of what-what these really have a problem with, they've got all these viruses. And some of them will absolutely species jump, so it's-I mean, it's-they did not-they not only destroy and kill the shrimp crop, but they can species jump. Like if you have a shrimp farm that's on the edge of the water and they escape and they are usually-they're exotic shrimp. And they get out and they have this type of virus that species jump, is they can jump from shrimp, they can jump to the crab, they can jump to the fish. And you know-and-and you know, it's just like chemicals that you put out into the

00:36:01 - 2287 environment. It's like, they don't know what these viruses do. It's like they don't know what these chemicals do. And so you have got no idea what you are setting loose, but it's like the bottom line is profit. And-and I know it's-it's a huge profit and, you know, I know like a lot of the shrimp importers into the United States, there's no tariffs on it, there's no taxes on it.

And so, shrimpers-what is boil down to, shrimpers are paying-are getting paid like what they were getting four decades ago. You know, like, you could-they're getting 80 cents for some big shrimp. And, you know, and-and-I don't believe there is any other occupation that you can be getting the same thing for your-for your product that you were getting 20 years ago. You know. I don't-I don't think there's another single occupation. It's-it goes up with inflation. You know, you're-you can at least feed your kids and-and pay your boat payments and-and-and the

00:37:08 - 2287 shrimpers can't do it. They cannot afford to do that.

You know, and I know just right across the San Antonio Bay right here is-there is a shrimp farm there and they put in this huge ponds and-and there was-we were trying to fight the permitting because we were afraid about these exotic shrimp getting out and putting-and-and they already had viruses. They had them-they had viruses in Brownsville and they had some viruses in the Palacios ones and we were afraid of these having viruses, too. And, you know, and Parks and Wildlife and all these agencies were gung ho on getting them there. You know, they-they saw this as economic-economic development. And-and the thing of it was is, the man was over there putting in shrimp crops and he wasn't even permitted. And you can always tell they're doing it because you can see the birds because the birds on the bay, when they start hitting-hitting the water, they see shrimp. And they're

00:38:13 - 2287 going after the shrimp. And, you know, all you had to do is look across the bay or get pretty close to it and you could see all these birds working. But-but the man was so isolated is that nobody knew what he was doing. There was nobody checking on what he was doing. So he could pretty much do exactly what he wanted and, you know, and all these-they have huge discharges. I think the discharge of the shrimp farm in Palacios, it amounted to the flow of a river. And you've got all of this sediment and this possible viruses and you got shrimp escaping and you got bacteria and you got all these type of chemicals that they have to use to try to kill and contain some of this stuff. And it's just going right out there into the Gulf of Mexico. And-and I know this one over here, you call Parks and Wildlife or you try to tell them that, you know, you just think they're already putting in their crop in there because they're already running and they're already discharging and it's like, you know, you get-you get nowhere. If you wait on one of

00:39:23 - 2287 your agency people to come down and-and investigate. If-if an activist waits on that, then they're waiting on nothing because they got their own timeline, they got their own agenda. You know, and-and even if you talk to them, they say, you know, we don't have enough time in the day to take care of this. They've got thousands of things they're supposed to be taking care of, they're naking-not making that much amount of money and besides, the politics of it, they're not that concerned about it. They're more pro shrimp farms. You know, they see it as a bonanza. And so you don't-so you end up doing your own investigation. You know, I became a pretty good private detective, you

00:40:09 - 2287 know, and I would take my boat over there, get out of the boat, get a camera. I walked down their discharges. You just take pictures of it flowing out. You know, and I-I remember one time I was halfway up there on his property, sure, I was trespassing. But here he came in his Jeep and he loosed these dogs and I was running as fast as I could to hit my boat again. But, you know, he was illegally discharging-had a-didn't even have a permit on it.

(misc.)

DT: Diane, we've been talking about the changes in the shrimping and fishing industry and I was wondering if you could tell me if the shrimping industry's been changing by itself or if the shrimp populations have also been changing? If they've been going down or up or what direction those trends have been taking.

00:41:05 - 2287 DW: Well, I believe the shrimp population as a whole has almost vanished. Matter of fact, like you'll have shrimpers in-in like the last five or six years, you know, there-there might be one season be a little bit different. But, I mean, they'll go out shrimping and there's absolutely not a shrimp. They are none to be had. And I know that-and-and there's sometimes there's very strange things that happen. Like shrimp, when-when they come into the estuaries, and that's kind of like a nursery area, and they're protected and they grow. And shrimpers, when-when-when they're getting in preparation for season, they want to see what size, what-what it's looking like, what the shrimp crop's looking at. So they'll get a try net, you know, you know, that these are try net doors and you have a-a very small try net, you know, maybe like six foot. And you just go and you just try and you-you tie-it's got a-a string attached to the-to the net.

00:42:09 - 2287 And so, you put over these small doors, you got this little, small try net and you can hold it and you can feel the shrimp that go in, you can feel when a crab goes in and the-they're testing to see what-what the shrimp are doing. And you can-and-and you know-and sometimes they'll get real excited. They saw there's shrimp up there and they're just fixin' to move. And then, they're gone. They're-they didn't come through. They just vanished. And people-and especially a shrimper starts talking that and they'll say oh, yeah. We know, you shrimpers went to the head of the bay, caught all the shrimp and da da da da da. But I ca-I'll tell you this little story is there was, about five years ago, the shrimp in Galveston Bay vanished. I mean, they-they were there and they were gone. There was even an article in the Houston Chronicle about the shrimp dieoff. I mean, they died. And about three months after that, I had a-a-at that time, it

00:43:17 - 2287 was TNRCC, Texas Natural Resource Commission-Conservation Commission, and he was-talked to me and he started laughing. He said yeah, I know where those shrimp went. He says we tracked it all the way down to Union Carbide. It's Union Carbide had a release and it was highly toxic to shrimp larva and it wiped out the whole thing. But it's like, you know, you-you know, they don't go out of their way and say hey, reporter, this is what happened or have a meeting with the fishmongers. Hey, fishermen, this is what had-what happened to the shrimp there. But that was an absolute instance of a chemical that was fatal to shrimp larva and it wiped them out. They had a spill and wiped out every shrimp in Galveston Bay. And, I know Union Carbide, right-right across, that they dump. We've Union Carbide, well, we have got DuPont, we have got BP Chemical, we got Seadrift Coke. We got Formosa Plastics, we got Alcoa, and all of them-all of them, at least, have a five million dol-five million gallon a day-a day discharge. All

00:44:28 - 2287 these chemicals, (whoosh sound) and they dump them right into the bay. (Whoosh sound.) And I know for a fact that Union Carbide, similar to a sister plant in Texas City that had the leak, they had a big leak there of the very same chemical. You know, and it was due to they had this huge pipe that went all the way from the plant-all the way out to the barge dock and the pipe was so old, it was crumbling. And it was like, you know, and-and all of their waste pits. I mean, it's tidally influenced. I mean, the water goes in and it goes up and down with the contamination in there. And then-and the thing of it is like, it is so expensive to make any type of testing of chemicals, so it's just-so it's-so-so you have-you have a lot of items. You got all of these chemical plants with their discharges.

And then you start seeing this-this drastic-I mean a drastic reduction and-and-and the-and-and-and the thad-sad thing about shrimpers is-like I said,

00:45:44 - 2287 they don't know how not to be shrimpers. That's who they are, that's their identity. So they go out shrimping, there's no shrimp there and they think, well maybe if I-if I-if I had a bigger engine. If I had a bigger engine that could-it could go faster. You know, if I had a bigger net. So the shrimpers-what they end up doing is intensifying the effort to try to make a living. And it's just-and it complicates, it stresses out a condition that's already stressed out. And so, here-here you-and-and then-and then, it gets so bad. And it's a whole different type of shrimpers that are here now than-that used to be there. At one time, when-when my dad was shrimping, I mean, it was unheard of for a shrimper to go after small shrimp. It was unheard of. You did not do it, even if it was the beginning of season. If they were small like that, you didn't touch those. It was only some sorry SOS that would-or rather SOB that would go after small shrimp. And when you get where shrimpers cannot even get it-a net. They can't put food on the table, they

00:47:00 - 2287 can't get health insurance, they can't pay for their truck, they get desperate. And so they have-when after times when there were some small shrimp. I've seen shrimpers go after small shrimp. And I remember, you know, my-my dad, I never heard him cuss a day in his life and I can remember being out and watching him, it was-it was kind of evening, kind of like it is now, and there was a shrimp and it was going the head of the bay, going after small shrimp. It was because he said I have to. I have to. I can't do nothing else. That's the only way I can make some money. And my dad was standing out there and he said that SOB. That's the first time I ever heard him say a cuss word. And, you know, and then you have other shrimpers and they-they sit there and watch that for two or three days. You see this man going out, getting small shrimp, coming in. I mean, they're-they're tiny shrimp and he's probably getting 20 cents for them. And it's like, they'll say, well, hell. I'm going to do it, too. You know, and they just get aggravated, so it's-so you just-you-you have this-this-this slow death to their own psyche. You know,

00:48:12 - 2287 and it's-you know, and it kills them. It kills them when they do that. You know, because-you know, I'm not the only one that feels a part of the bay. They've been out there so long themselves that they have to feel it. And it-and it does something to you. It-it's-it's like a sacred trust and when you violate it, you're-you're doing damage to yourself. Not only to the bay, but to yourself.

(misc.)

DT: Diane, you talked a moment ago about how chemical releases to the bay have affected the shrimp populations, but I understand they've also affected the people in this community. Can you tell about how you first learned of that?

00:48:57 - 2287 DW: Well, shrimping, I started-I guess I first started my activism when shrimping was so bad, I wasn't even shrimping. I had tied up the boat and I was running a fish house. I was running Froggy's Shrimp Company for my brother. And I had all these shrimpers and they'd bring their shrimp-shrimp boats in and I'd get their catch and I'd deal with the Cajun truck drivers and-and I had this one shrimper and he had three different types of cancers. They-they were like tennis balls. They were the huge lumps all over his arm. And he was a real young fellow. And he brought me a article. And it was Associated Press story and it mentioned Calhoun County, which is the county I'm from. It mentioned us about four or five times and-and it was the Toxic Release Inventory. It was the first time the Toxic Release Inventory, which is where industry has to report their emissions to the air or to the water or to the land, to injection wells. It was the first time they ever reported them and was the first time it was ever made public. And

00:50:11 - 2287 it was the first time it was ever in print. And this county-it's-I bet you it is one of the smallest counties in the whole state of Texas. I bet you at that time we had about 15,000 people in the whole county. And to find out you're number one? It was like-I mean, we're not known for nothing. You know, people come buzzing through this county and they just keep heading on because they don't see anything interesting here. And we were number one in the nation. And it was-I-I-I couldn't believe it. I absolutely could not believe it and-because, up to that point, there was all these huge industries around. You would always see them, you'd always see the pipes and the-but you never knew what was going on because they wouldn't tell you anything. They didn't give you information. And matter of fact, the plants were never in the paper. They just kept this very low profile. And so, when I read that, I-I-I was com-I was compelled. It's-it's like, you witness something and it is so outrageous, it compels you to do something. And I am not-believe it or not, I am not vocal person. Probably-I took speech

00:51:34 - 2287 probably the first six years of school. To avoid people, I would crawl underneath the bed to get away from people. You know, and I have a son who's autistic and-and when I was younger, I thought I was autistic because I did not like talking. I didn't say a word to nobody. I didn't-I liked silence. Silence was the finest thing I had going for me.

And when I heard that we were number one in the county, I just spontaneously, because I'm not a-I'm not a linear person. I'm not a planner; I'm not a note taker or devise a plan. That is nothing that I do. But I move spontaneously and I was so, just absolutely horrified with that data. So I just called a meeting. I went down to City Hall and said, you know, we had this little room outside City Hall and sometimes they had little games there and sometimes they had a little dance there for the kids there. So I called the meeting.

And there was such a backlash from that one simple meeting. To be honest, it-it-it caught my curiosity because I could not-I could not figure out what was going on because suddenly I had City Hall, I had the county commissioners, I had the mayors, I

00:53:02 - 2287 had the plant-plant managers coming down and telling me to be a good citizen and not do this. And it was like, do what? What am-what am I doing? It was like, I was calling a meeting. And they would say, well, we're having economic development down here and this is just red flags, red flags. It's-it looks like trouble. And-and I even had the bank president come down to the fish house. I had never spoken to that man a day in my life and he was down there and he said I was getting a vigilante group. And I was like, I'm not doing nothing but calling the meeting. And it was-and suddenly, all of the-the-at that time, it was like Phil Gramm and Lofton, he was the representative at the time, and all of these Senators and representatives, suddenly they were on T.V. and saying, you know, it was just-we just can't have this questioning of industry. And I-I-I still-I had no idea what they were talking about. And I got attacked. I would have economic development, Chamber of Commerce, the mayors, businesses show up and literally disrupt. I mean, they would say I was hysterical. You know, they would say I

00:54:19 - 2287 was hysterical. And they said I was a spy for Louisiana because they never could actually believe I could think of this on my own because, you know, I'm from-I'm from the little southern, rural Texas and down here, they don't think women are smart enough, and especially, if you're a fisherman. They think you're kind of stupid. And I've been told that my whole life. It's like, you stupid woman. And so-and so, you know, you're-here you have these people that-that just can't believe this is coming from me.

It's like, where's she coming from? Somebody's paying her. You know, Louisiana's hiring her to do this. And-and they never could believe-and maybe that talks about cynicism out there, it's like they cannot believe that someone legitimately cares. It's like, has things gone so bad that there is no legitimate care? That there's always-there's always a motive? There's like, what is it you want? What is it you want? And like, they was always asking me, it's like, what is it you want? And it's like, it's the bay. It's like,

00:55:29 - 2287 where are you coming from? It's the bay. That's where I come from.

And so, that is where it started and it was like a rolling stone and it just kept mushrooming and it just took over my entire life. It was like I-I truly believe people have-they have-they have-I think they have a destiny. I think there is-there's a time you come at a crossroads and you can take one path or you can choose another. And I chose the path that I went on. You know, and it's just like Robert Frost said, it's made all the difference. And I always-and I know for a fact, you can tell which is the bas-best pathway. It's because you can smell the fear because it is genuine fear. And you're like you are scared to death and I did not know the first thing about it. I didn't know where the EPA was. I didn't know where, at that time, it was Texas Water Commission. I didn't know the first thing about them and I remember I made these little naïve calls to the Union Carbide and they

00:56:40 - 2287 said we don't give information to every Tom, Dick and Harry on the telephone. And they said like, you don't know what a water permit is. You don't know nothing. And so, you know, they-they wasn't even going to be bothered with me. And-but I-and I learned, if there is-if there is probably a way to not do it, I even covered every angle of that, to not do it.

Because I tried everything and I just-you know, and-and-and I-and I think I was lucky because I'm not-I'm not highly educated. I was high school. And I didn't even like chemistry, but when you don't know what you're not supposed to do, you just do it all. You just walk in like, oh, this is possible. This is possible here and-and so you-you go places that other people that are smarter and have a larger diploma say oh, well you-well, you can't do this. You know, they're-sometimes your education can limit you on the possibilities and, to me, the possibilities are limitless. You know, I

00:57:47 - 2287 remember when I went to Formosa and said zero discharge and look at me like I was hysterical. And it was like there's no such thing as zero discharge. They're like yeah, there's zero discharge. You know, and-you know, and-and I have-you know, that-that was one thing I did. I-I researched. I found out information. So I just kept being persistent. It was like, yeah, there-there's zero discharge. And, you know, and-and I would go to a wastewater hearing and I would be the only one. And Formosa, one time they brought bus...

DT: Let's talk about Formosa. Maybe you can.

(misc.)

DT: Diane, you mentioned Formosa Chemical in passing and I'm wondering if you can describe what Formosa Chemical's proposal was and how it got you started on a different way of activism.

DW: And for those of us in California, just a little background of who Formosa Chemical is and where they do. It's just not a name that's as familiar as DuPont or anything.

00:58:47 - 2287

DW: Okay. Probably the first plant I started working with was Formosa Plastics. I had never heard of Formosa Plastics. It was a tiny, little PVC-that's polyvinyl chloride dioxin-you know, now there's a whole of issues about PVC. But in 1989, it was a tiny, little company. It was a multicorporation, meaning it was from-it was based in Taiwan and it was company owned. It was owned by Chairman Wong, Y.C. Wong, who is one of the richest men in the world. He's probably the 11th richest man in the world and the richest industrialist in the island of Taiwan. And at the point that I had read that we were number one in the nation, I didn't even know who Formosa Plastics was. It wasn't even in the picture. And when I called my first meeting, someone sent me a letter in the mail. And it was-just had my name on the front. It didn't give their name. All it did was give me a copy that they'd cut out of the newspaper of the public notice for Formosa Plastics

01:00:02 - 2287 to have seven new air permits. And, like I said, I-I-I had never saw a-a public notice before, which is where industry-if you're going to build, you have to let the public know and they usually put it in the newspaper and it's usually far in the back-back with the advertisements and the divorce ads and all this type of stuff. And so someone had sent me that and so, I decided as a first order of business, we would say we were going to ask for a permit hearing on Formosa Plastics. And apparently, that was the reason why I was having such problems because Formosa Plastics, they were putting in a 2.7 billion dollar chemical expansion in Texas. It was the biggest Texas had ever had. It was the largest in the United States in ten years. Phil Gramm, who at that time, was a Congressman and was developing a war chest to be President, he was taking the lead role in bringing this huge, multinational corporation into Texas and making sure their permits were okay, their visas were okay, their tax abatements were okayed. And the public knew nothing about it. It had been a little business deal that the Texas Department of Commerce was all involved in. The governor was all involved in. But the public knew

01:01:29 - 2287 nothing about. But to get them down here, they had guaranteed their permit. They had said-matter of fact, Phil Gramm's campaign manager was the EPA administrator of-up in Dallas and it covered like six states, you know. Texas and Oklahoma and Louisiana and Arkansas. And so, here you got an EPA administrator who's a campaign manager for Phil Gramm. Phil Gramm is going to get all of the-the-the benefits of bringing in all of these thousands of jobs for this huge, chemical expansion on the Texas Gulf Coast. And it was guaranteed. It was like a deal. It was like, you know, you come down here. You bring it down here, we'll get you the permits, we'll get you the visas, we'll get you the tax abatements.