Zoe Marshall: My name is Zoe Marshall. I'm here with Serena Bear and Arleen Lawson. The
date is March 18th, 2019, and we're at Ms. Lawson's home in Houston, Texas. Do you mind
just telling us a little bit about yourself, your name, when you got to UT, what year,
your major, why you went there, things like that?
Arleen Lawson: My name is Arleen Lawson, and I got to UT in the fall of 1965. I graduated
from Yates High School here in Houston, and decided to go to UT because my mother had
been there for some graduate certification for library science. One of the things she
did one of the summers she was up there was brought us up for a weekend. I was about 12
or so, and we got to go around campus and look at the campus. We did some things like
go bowling and other things. That made me have an interest in applying to the University
of Texas. That's how I wound up there. Serena Bear: That's great.
Zoe Marshall: What did you decide to major in, and how did you know you wanted to do
that, or how did you decide that? Arleen Lawson: I was always interested in
English, and so I started out majoring in psychology, but like all young people ... Let's
just ignore that. I'll let it ring for a minute. I decided to try to do a double major in English
and psychology. It turned out I got the degree in English with a lot of psychology credits,
but was interested in that. I was also interested in behavioral science, and so kind of got
interested in both, and so that was the reason I majored in that. I didn't go into anything
like ... Once I graduated I went into industry, and I worked for the oil and gas industry
mainly in public affairs and human resources. Arleen Lawson: I retired from Exxon Mobile,
and I was the executive director or the Exxon Mobile's corporate foundation, which was a
global foundation with a budget of 200 million. We had a huge foundation, and that's what
I finally did in terms of career. I kind of went into business, which is interesting,
but I'm sure anyone, any faculty in the Liberal Arts will tell you if you get a degree in
Liberal Arts you can do anything. I certain am a living embodiment of that, yes.
Serena Bear: Awesome. Zoe Marshall: When you got on campus what
was the dynamic? When you got there was there ever any hostility or discomfort you felt
as a black student? Arleen Lawson: Probably. Let me just say this,
yes, there was hostility, but it wasn't as covert as the first students who had to go
there who were cursed at, who were spit upon. Although, my younger sister got spit upon
in her dorm, so, yes, this still happened, but as covert as it was there. Some of that
had gone underground. Now, you have to understand in '65 there were on black faculty at the
University of Texas, so we were very isolated. There were probably less than 200 black students
there out of a population of 30 or 40 thousand. You can go back and check the numbers.
Arleen Lawson: We were very isolated. There weren't many black staff members too, even
on the grounds and things like that. Most of the menial jobs were done by Hispanics.
You could go for a week at the University of Texas and walk through the campus and never
see anybody else black, except when you got back to see your roommate. That was the atmosphere.
At the university. Now, don't get me wrong. We were trying to change some of that. Housing
was an issue because, as you can imagine, back then they had just begun to integrate
the dorms, but you didn't have white roommates. You had to have a black roommate if you were
in a dorm. I didn't live in a dorm. Arleen Lawson: Interesting enough, I lived
in a house that was an Episcopal house on campus. Now, this was a church. I don't know,
I haven't walked down there because I've been back to the campus recently. The church may
have been torn down for progression. It was a very tiny Episcopal church, and next to
it was a house. We had about probably 30 or 40 girls. They kind of warranted-off the rooms.
I had a black roommate, but I also had two white roommates. That was something unusual
too. People were not unfriendly, but they were not friendly either. That would be the
way I would describe the campus. Serena Bear: Right, that makes sense. Did
you encounter problems having the two white roommates with you and your other black roommates?
Arleen Lawson: No, they were nice girls. They were kind of oddballs themselves, kind of
nerdy types. One was a chemistry major, and I can't remember what the other was, was kind
of a hippy type back then, which was the 60s. Serena Bear: Normal.
Arleen Lawson: In the 60s there were hippy types. [inaudible 00:05:44]. We didn't have
a problem with them. It was interesting, the cooks who cooked there were black. They were
just thrilled to see us in that house because they had not seen any black students in that
house ever before, so they were very thrilled. They used to give us extra dessert and stuff,
so it wasn't bad living. It was an interesting place to be. Now, the rest of the blacks were
scattered in different dorms. Some of them lived in Almetris, who I know you know about.
That house, that was full of- Serena Bear: I actually live in that dorm.
Zoe Marshall: I live in Duren now. Arleen Lawson: All right. Well, that was when
it was the house. That's been torn down, but a lot of the blacks lived there. It was an
interesting experience to be in that campus. The black students all got together. I've
said this before, it didn't matter what year you were in, what Greek organization you belonged
to, all the blacks socialized together. If there was a party, every black on campus was
invited. It was an open invitation because there was so few of us, and we knew we had
to stick together. The socialization of the black students was very open, and probably
helped all of us because we were linked together being in this big, white institution. You
can draw strength from each other when you have that kind of environment.
Serena Bear: Knowing that there wasn't a whole lot of black people at UT when you were going
to go, did that hold you back, like [crosstalk 00:07:34]?
Arleen Lawson: No, it didn't. It wasn't something that concerned me as such. In fact, I don't
even think at the time, I don't know if I was naive or what, but I didn't even think
about it. I was just happy to be in the school, be accepted, and be able to attend the school.
I did not think about the fact. Now, you have to understand something back in the early
60s, anywhere any black went to a white institution, we were still very small numbers, I don't
care where you went. Zoe Marshall: That's true.
Arleen Lawson: There was no expectation that that would be the exception rather than the
rule. It was the rule. It wasn't something that you thought too much about because you
were in this institution, and I knew if I got a degree from the University of Texas
it would be valuable, et cetera, et cetera. Serena Bear: Right, awesome.
Zoe Marshall: When you guys were creating these communities, and as linked as you were,
do you think that when you got involved, well, how did you get involved, then, with activism
on campus? What were the issues? Arleen Lawson: Well, it was the kind of thing
where it was like an open invitation for all the black students to get engaged in the demonstrations
that were going on on campus. Part of that had to do with the fact that we understood
the civil rights issues, not only at the University of Texas, but what was happening in the rest
of the United States because you have to remember, this was the height of the Civil Rights Movement.
Arleen Lawson: That level of awareness, we all carried to the campus. When they talked
about demonstrating, and wanting black faculty members, wanting other things of the university,
wanting black athletes on scholarship, because there were no black athletes on scholarship
at the university. All of those things were the ones that probably motivated all of us.
Let me just say this, I would say that probably all of the black students showed up at one
time or another for some demonstrations. Some of them stuck with it, others decided it wasn't
their thing, that kind of thing. Nobody condemned them. Not everybody wants to get involved
and march and that kind of thing. Arleen Lawson: It got to a point where it
became so normal that when you woke up you said, "What demonstration is happening today,
and where is it? And, I've got class today." If you were in Liberal Arts we had a lot of
professors who were leaning toward those demonstrations. You could go to class, and the professor would
walk in and say, "Look, there's a demonstration on the mall, let's go," and we would all go.
Zoe Marshall: Nice. That's great. Arleen Lawson: There were professors that
were supportive of students, particularly in the Liberal Arts. The dean of Liberal Arts,
Dean Silver, who, at the time, was very liberal-oriented supported the students who were demonstrating
in that. It really was quite normal to do both, so there duality there. You might have
been an activist and demonstrating, but you're also in class and doing other things.
Arleen Lawson: I think part of that, particularly the academic part, had to do with the fact
that we were the great-grandchildren of slaves, for the most part, and education was something
that was very cherished and dear. This was implanted in us from very small children that
to get an education gets you ahead in the world, particularly since our descents were
denied education. Arleen Lawson: I don't think any of us turned
our back on the academic part because we understood that that was something that was important,
not only to our parents, to our grandparents, but that didn't mean we couldn't demonstrate
and talk about and act upon the need for civil rights activity or demonstrations during that
period. Zoe Marshall: That's great. At these protests,
what would you say they looked like? What were the dynamics? Was it mostly black students,
was it mixed? Arleen Lawson: No, it could depend. The university
had, we called it The Movement, that's what we called it. I tell anyone, The Movement
was mosaic. You had black students who were interested in the civil rights and their issues
related to the university and the world. You had white female students who were interested
in feminism and what that meant to the world, and you're probably going to interview some
of those students, I assume, for this, that were interested in that and burning the bra.
All of that was on campus at the same time. You had others who were interested in revolutionary
activity related to socialism, communism and things like that. Then you had other kinds
of groups. Arleen Lawson: It got so refined that you
even had Trotskyites, you had Leninists, you had Stalinists. We were all together in The
Movement. We may have different goals, but we would come together to demonstrate and
talk about those issues. They supported us, we supported them. It was an interesting time
to be on campus. Now, I don't know in today's world if you could get away with that, but
then it was a matter of being committed to making the world better. All of these things
needed to be achieved in order to make the world better.
Arleen Lawson: There were no hard lines drawn in the sand about what you could or could
not support. In fact, we didn't think about it too much. You just went out and you demonstrated.
Sometimes it was just the black students marching, and then maybe whites who were marching with
us. Other times it may be the women who were marching, and they were marching about something
else too, and we supported them. It was an interesting time to be on campus and to see
all of that, I guess, social unrest happen on the campus during that period.
Serena Bear: Would you say that you guys had a lot of white involvement in your demonstrations,
specifically your organizations? Arleen Lawson: There were some who were interested
in that. We had some students who were interested in our goals and were committed to our goals.
The big heroes of the day like Che Guevara and people like that were all big on campus,
and they were all our heroes and that kind of thing. In fact, I recently went to Cuba
and went to Santa Clara where he is enshrined. They have a big memorial, so that was a big
thrill for me to be there to see that. Arleen Lawson: I think that we all understood
that this was a global movement. This wasn't about what was happening on the University
of Texas campus. It was about something beyond. It was larger than that, and one of the things
The Movement taught you was that we may have different ideas, but The Movement itself was
global. We were all trying to achieve something better for, not only the University of Texas,
but also for people around the world. You had a lot of that global thinking in what
we were doing, in addition to having the civil rights and all of the other things involved
too. Serena Bear: That's awesome.
Zoe Marshall: Then, do you remember any of the groups then that were like the Students
for a Democratic Society, any of the African-American groups?
Arleen Lawson: Oh, SDS? Oh, yeah, I remember those groups. I can't of anybody's name. My
sister is probably better at remembering names than I am. She came up two years in '67. I
think that SDS was on campus, all of those. You knew all those people, everybody knew
each other. You would see each other on campus. Like I said, you wake up in the morning and
figure out where the demonstration was, and you participate in that, and then you go to
class when it suited you. Arleen Lawson: Everyone was focused on trying
to achieve better goals for society. In fact, we were young people, so, of course, you're
talking about we were 18, 19, 20 year olds, so we thought we were going to change the
world. Let me just say this, and I say this to everybody who is young, there is nothing
like waking up in the morning thinking you might do something that might change the world.
That's very powerful. Not everybody has that privilege. Now, when I look back on it, you
can chuckle a little bit, but it was something profound to wake up-
Serena Bear: Absolutely. Arleen Lawson: ... and have that kind of feeling
of power as you move forward. It changes you as a person, and I'm sure in some ways we
did change the campus. For instance, the apartments outside of the campus would not rent to blacks,
and they were very comfortable telling you that.
Arleen Lawson: When we were sophomores we decided, my roommate and another young lady,
decided we wanted to live off-camp. We thought it would be very simple, but, no, there was
discrimination in housing outside of the university. Some of my classmates had to sue the City
of Austin to change that so they would rent to blacks. They were very comfortable. We
probably drove all over the city looking for an apartment and told, "No, we don't rent
to blacks." Serena Bear: Every single one y'all went to?
Arleen Lawson: We finally found this little old grandmotherly lady who was probably off-campus.
I can't remember, I think it was on 23rd Street. She had these, probably, eight apartments,
and she rented to us. She was the only one, but we had to sue.
Serena Bear: Did that work? Arleen Lawson: Yeah. It worked.
Serena Bear: Nice. Arleen Lawson: That's some of the things we
did so that people like you could go get an apartment off-campus. We did make a difference
on campus in those kinds of ways. I think a lot of the protests that we did, we even
met with Darrell Royal to talk about football. Yes, we went to Darrell Royal's office, and
he met with us, but he said he couldn't do anything.
Zoe Marshall: About desegregating the teams? Because at this time period they didn't recruit
black students, or they didn't give them scholarships? Arleen Lawson: Well, they didn't recruit them,
so there were not scholarships because you recruit, you get a scholarship. Now, they
did allow walk-ons because I had a younger classmate who did walk on. Now, he didn't
make the team. In track, again, in track they allowed walk-ons. It wasn't until later on
after that, after probably years of us protesting, that they finally got their first recruit
scholarship. I don't know when it was. It had to be in maybe '70. I don't know. You
can probably look it up, but we met with him, and he told us, no, he couldn't do it.
Zoe Marshall: Wow. When you guys are doing all of this, what would you describe was the
leadership structure, the gender dynamics? Did it ever feel like the leadership, whether
it was like solid leadership or kind of de facto leadership, was it male, was it female,
was it mixed? Arleen Lawson: Most of the leadership was
male. The gender dynamics were fairly traditional. However, I would tell you that most of the
women who were demonstrating were not led by those men. They wanted to do their thing,
we would do other things. I would say that the official face of SDS was a male and that
kind of thing. There were males that were very much involved in that kind of thing,
but that didn't preclude women from doing other things. I don't think they looked on
us as less-than in that sense. I think we were all equal in this in terms of the struggle.
Zoe Marshall: That's good to hear. We talked a lot about The Rag and newspapers like that,
so what, really, was the role or you guys' relationship to The Rag or The Daily Texan
and local newspapers? Arleen Lawson: I will say this, The Daily
Texan didn't do much for us when we were there. Now, I can't tell you why, if that was because
of the leadership of The Daily Texan, and by that on leadership I'm talking about faculty.
I don't know, but they very seldom did very much for us at all.
Serena Bear: Regarding like reporting your demonstrations and things like that?
Arleen Lawson: Reporting our demonstrations, supporting us, interviewing us, trying to
get a feel for it. Real journalism, there was none. Part of that probably had to do
with whoever was in charge because the faculty controlled what was happening. Well, not so
much the faculty, but the administration, let me put it that, and the regents. The regents
were very involved, and I can't think of his name because he just passed away, but he was
a notorious regent who hated the black students. I can't think of his name. They were very
much against what we were doing because they wanted to keep the status quo. They were willing
to let in a few, but they didn't want you to do anything.
Zoe Marshall: So, there were a few black students working for The Daily Texan, or was it mostly
white? Arleen Lawson: I'm not aware of any black
students working for The Daily Texan then, none, and I think I would remember that if
that were happening. Zoe Marshall: Then, what about The Rag, the
underground paper, was it- Arleen Lawson: The underground paper was very
supportive, and they were doing things and writing stories and things like that so, yeah,
The Rag was really something that reported on activities and that kind of thing. We did
have some support there. Arleen Lawson: Like I said, a lot of our communication
was underground anyway because there were no cellphones, no internet. I struggle today
to even figure out how we got word about everything, but for some reason you could get word on
everything, even though we didn't have the mechanism we have today where there's instantaneous
communication and that kind of thing. You knew to gather at certain times and that kind
of thing, or if you were going to march, you knew how to march and what to do with that
time. Zoe Marshall: In the topic of like the regents,
did you come into contact with any surveillance? I know we talked about Burt Gerding at the
time was big in surveilling the student groups active on campus [crosstalk 00:23:37].
Arleen Lawson: Oh, sure, we were under surveillance all the time. The other thing you have to
remember is that this was a time when Vietnam veterans were coming back from the war, and
they were being put on campus to surveil the students. This wasn't happening not only at
the University of Texas, it was happening all over the country. We knew who they were.
Serena Bear: That's great. Arleen Lawson: They knew we knew who they
were. They could be black students, they could be white students, but, yes, those people
were put there to surveil and figure out what they were doing. Now, let me just say that
the University of Texas, you didn't have the kind of radicalism where people were trying
to blow up anything or that kind of thing. That was not happening at the University of
Texas. Serena Bear: Was it happening elsewhere?
Arleen Lawson: Oh, yes. There were raids and guns, Patty Hearst, all of that was happening
out in the world during that time period. People died. People were robbing banks, killing
people, and went underground for years. In the last 20 years a lot of those people have
resurfaced. Some have been jailed because they committed crimes. That was not happening
at the University of Texas. On the East Coast there was a lot of that happening.
Arleen Lawson: The Black Panther movement was big. Let me just say, there was FBI spies
and that kind of thing all over the campus. We were all aware of that. None of us were
naïve enough to think that this guy who comes on campus, and he's a veteran, and he wants
to know what you all are doing, we understood what that was about, yeah.
Zoe Marshall: Was there any specific times where somebody would try to infiltrate, like
COINTELPRO, where somebody would become a part of the group and try to push you guys
to be more extreme or something like that? Arleen Lawson: Yeah, you would have that kind
of thing, and then you would have to say, "Well, what's going on? Why are they trying
to push this?" You would understand, like I said, we knew who they were and what they
were trying to do. We were not naïve enough to think that those kinds of things were not
happening because they were. Arleen Lawson: Like I said, it was an interesting
thing because they were on the campus, and they were there to report back. Now, there
wasn't much to report back because, like I said, we weren't planning anything big deal.
We weren't planning anything like robbing or bombing the or that kind of violent demonstrations,
but we were radical enough where they felt the need to have that.
Zoe Marshall: Were there any unfair arrests of students or individuals?
Arleen Lawson: Oh, yes, there were arrests. In fact, one of my biggest thrills of The
Movement was when William Kuntzler, who was a famous civil rights lawyer based on the
East Coast, and he flew in to get my friends out of jail, and came over to our apartment.
We played cards together. That was a big thrill because you'd have to look up William Kuntzler,
but he was a famous civil rights lawyer. He had worked with Martin Luther King and that
kind of thing. We had those kind of connections, and he flew in and helped get some friends
of mine out of jail who had been arrested. Zoe Marshall: How do you spell his last name?
Arleen Lawson: K-U-N-T-Z-L-E-R, I think that's it, Kuntzler.
Serena Bear: Were the police often interacting with you guys? Were they involved a lot? Was
it every demonstration? Arleen Lawson: No, not every demonstration.
Serena Bear: When y'all were [crosstalk 00:27:22]. Arleen Lawson: Not every demonstration. Probably,
I would that one or two things that we were going off-campus to demonstrate or demonstrating
in front of a place they didn't want us to march in front of. If it was on-campus it
was fairly contained. I'm sure the campus police were there, but, no, the regular police
were not there on campus during much activity. It was if we were marching off-campus or doing
something else, you know? Serena Bear: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Zoe Marshall: You talked about the interactions earlier that you had with some of the administration.
You talked to Darrell Royal. How would you characterize your interactions with other
members of the faculty, besides the College of Liberal Arts, the administration, the regents?
Arleen Lawson: Most of them were not interested in what the black students had to say. They
were not supportive of what we were interested in, nor did they have any desire to support
the black students. They were tolerated. In some classes they discriminated against the
black students. In some classes some of them were frightened. I took a course from a professor,
and every time I would go talk to him he would be trembling, shaking.
Zoe Marshall: Oh, my goodness. Arleen Lawson: He was frightened. Of course,
I assumed that he had had some experience and had done something to someone black, and,
therefore, he was fearful that I was there to retaliate or something. They were not supportive,
nor were they interested in the black students. We were tolerated, let's say. In some cases,
the black students were told that, "You're not going to get any more than a C in this
class, no matter what you do." Zoe Marshall: Were there ever times, then,
when you wanted to talk to the administration, or you had a particular frustration or aim,
and you needed to have a white student representative or work with any other group? Were there any
groups or people on campus that could be like an intermediary between?
Arleen Lawson: No, you didn't have that kind of thing. That didn't develop until much later.
Like I said, we were fairly isolated, so there wasn't that kind of thing. Now, I will just
say this, like I said, the School of Liberal Arts dean, when the Dean Silver was there
he was willing to entertain. He would talk to the students, and he was very supportive.
He was from the East Coast. Arleen Lawson: Beyond him, most of the students
were on their own in terms of getting support from faculty and that kind of thing. There
just wasn't that support there. Now, most of us got degrees, but it wasn't because there
was support. Most of us got degrees in spite of, it would be the way I would tell you that
most of us were able to graduate and do things. Zoe Marshall: Then, about academics and more
like social problems, any problem that college students would have, who, then, would black
students turn to? What were the resources on campus?
Arleen Lawson: We turned to each other. There wasn't a [inaudible 00:30:46]. Or, Ms. Durham
was there for those who lived in the dorm. I was not close to her, but she was certainly
there to support the black students. For the most part, you turned to each other. You relied
on each other because there wasn't any other infrastructure there in which to draw upon.
Like I said, there were no black faculty members there at the time.
Serena Bear: Was your family familiar with what you guys were doing on campus, and were
they approving of it? Were they like, "This is dangerous. Y'all shouldn't"?
Arleen Lawson: I was fortunate that my mother never said that to me. Now, I had other friends
whose parents told them, "No, you shouldn't be doing that." I have other friends whose
parents pulled them out of the school when they found out they were engaged in this kind
of activity, and sent them to another school. There was all kinds of extremes going on in
that respect. Arleen Lawson: As long as I was getting the
grades and moving forward, my mother never asked me what I was doing in that sense on
campus and that kind of thing. There were students whose parents were outraged that
they were getting engaged in this on campus, and wanted them to either stick to their academics.
Like I say, others who decided that the student was getting too radical and pulled them out
of the university. Serena Bear: Were they worried about their
safety, or was it more they wanted you to focus on academics?
Arleen Lawson: I think it was more wanting to focus on academics because education was
the primary reason they were there, so they wanted to make sure that the students were
focusing on academics. I think, for the most part, as long as we were getting our grades
and were able to continue on campus, there wasn't a lot of pressure for us.
Arleen Lawson: The other thing I would tell you is that a lot of what was going on campus
was not reported outside, even the Austin American Statesman. There wasn't much. There
was very little information outside of what was going on on campus with The Rag or something
like that that you found out what was going on in terms of demonstration and that kind
of thing. It didn't make national news. Part of that was the nature of the beast of no
internet, no cells, that kind of thing. You could contain in terms of information things
that related to campus within the campus. I'm sure the regents liked that too that it
wasn't. Zoe Marshall: That was, then, just the product
of the lack of internet and things, and not more so an active effort on the part of the
administration. Arleen Lawson: I couldn't answer that in terms
of whether the Austin American Statesman or some of those things. I know that we did get
a little news coverage when we filed that lawsuit, but other than that I was never interviewed
by anybody in the Austin area. I can't of anybody I know who was ever interviewed that
way. It was like say, it was very contained. Zoe Marshall: You said most students parents
didn't discourage them because of fear that they would be hurt, but did you guys ever
fear that you might have conflicts with other students on campus or outside agitators?
Arleen Lawson: No. I don't know if we were naïve, but we never thought about it. I don't
think you go into those situations thinking those kinds of things, that something bad
is going to happen. Part of that is being young. Nothing bad ever happens to young people,
we know that. Zoe Marshall: Of course.
Arleen Lawson: I think that's part of it. You arrive on campus, and you never think
about that. That's not to say that all the students, and I don't want to paint a picture
that every single white student on campus did not like blacks because that was not the
case. I would tell you that, because of what had been done in the late 50s and early 60s,
a lot of that really dangerous behavior, the white students upon the black students, a
lot of that had disappeared by the time we showed up in 1965. If you want to talk to
some people who really had it, who were spit upon, who were cursed daily, who were threatened,
those are some of the first black students at the University of Texas.
Zoe Marshall: So, then, you don't remember any incidents where students may have been
attacked, maybe not UT students, but other white residents in Austin or even the police?
Arleen Lawson: I don't remember anything like that. No, I can't recall anything. I think
I'd remember something like that if that had happened. No, there wasn't that kind of overt
hostility where people were physically threatened by whites. Now, that doesn't say that if you
went to certain areas of Austin you might encounter hostility. You have to understand,
the graduates in 1965 came from segregated high schools.
Arleen Lawson: See, there was no integration in public schools in Texas. We understood
what white hostility was before we got there. Because I grew up in Houston, and there were
parts of Houston we could not go in because we were black. There parks we could not go
to because we were black, there were stores, the rodeo just completed. The rodeo would
not allow black people to go to the rodeo except for one day. You have to understand
what was happening in the United States, and why there was a Civil Rights movement in the
first place. Arleen Lawson: When you talk about hostility
and all those things, we understood what that was before we showed up there because we grew
up in an environment where those kind of things were demonstrated on a daily basis. Emmett
Till, I was probably seven or eight when Emmett Till was killed. I can remember my parents
and grandparents and uncles and aunts talking about that. We understood those kinds of things
in terms of white hostility. That was not something that stopped us from doing what
we felt we needed to do in terms of becoming students at the University of Texas, but it
is something that that knowledge, we carried there to the campus in terms of what the potential
might be. Arleen Lawson: A lot of that hostility had
gone underground. Basically, by the time we got there we were not as integrated into the
campus life as we could have been. It was not something where they were hostile on a
daily basis to us. In other words, I could walk through campus, I wouldn't be bothered,
but I wouldn't see anybody black. That was not something that happened at the time.
Serena Bear: Was it almost a relief coming to college after being segregated in high
school, or it didn't feel very different? Arleen Lawson: No. Let me just say this, there
was not a relief. You have to understand that that segregated community took care of their
young people. We probably had the best teachers, the best campus life in those schools. There
wasn't anything to be relieved of, it's important to understand that. Most of us were sons and
daughters of teachers, doctors, professionals. Now, we were professionals in our own communities,
and at that time, like I said, the segregation still enclosed us, but it was not something
where we were relieved to be on that campus in that sense. It was just a fact of life.
Arleen Lawson: By the time I was a teenager, there was no more colored fountain and white
fountains. That had gone away, but there still was segregation in terms of high school, classes,
I mean, elementary school too. It wasn't until much later, not that much later, but I think
in the early 70s Texas integrated high schools then.
Zoe Marshall: You mentioned that you guys were isolated from campus life, so then what
were some of the more social things like clubs and programs and events that black students...?
Arleen Lawson: There was Greek life on campus, and we had Greek fraternities and sororities,
black fraternities and sororities. That's something that a lot of us participated in.
There were one or two of us who did get into the Orange Jackets. Nobody got in the Cowboys,
but they did get in the Orange Jackets. I'm trying to remember some of the other. What
are some of the other organizations like that? Serena Bear: I'm trying to think if they're
there. I know Cowboys and Orange Jackets are still here. Maybe like Wranglers?
Arleen Lawson: Yeah, some of those. Every once in a while there were-
Serena Bear: One or two. Arleen Lawson: ... those kinds of things happening
on the campus. In terms of being fully-integrated, like for instance, there were no black band
members on campus. Zoe Marshall: When you were there the union
was desegregated wasn't it? Arleen Lawson: Yeah, you could go in the union
if you wanted to. It was there. We didn't use the union much, but you could go in there.
I think the gathering place was usually the co-op, Mama Duren's place, and people would
go there. Like I said, Greek life did occur because most of us, a lot of us were legacies
from Greek life because my mother was an AKA, so I became an AKA. The campus started in,
I think it was '59. '59 was when- Zoe Marshall: The AKA?
Arleen Lawson: AKA, Delta Xi, yeah. I pledged because my mother was a part of that sorority.
Serena Bear: Was this a co-ed? Oh, it was a sorority.
Arleen Lawson: Yeah, sorority, sororities and Greeks. Like I said, fraternities would
throw parties, but everybody was invited. There wasn't a smaller circle of people who
went just because you were Greek you went there. Because there was so few of us, it
was always an open invitation to everything. Zoe Marshall: The fraternities would throw
parties, but in regards to other things like concerts, the school. We had read about a
phenomenon that had happened with an opera on campus, so were there any black students
that then starred in plays? Arleen Lawson: No. If there were we would
have shown up and done some of that, but no. There was none of that. The opera singer you're
talking about happened before we got to campus. No, unfortunately, we didn't have anybody
that talented who went through music in that regard, so, no, there weren't black performances
and things like that. Arleen Lawson: In fact, a lot of us would
go over to Huston-Tillotson, which was the black college. That was part of our social
life too because we weren't doing anything socially there, we would go over to Huston-Tillotson.
Over there I had friends I had gone to high school with who were going there for school,
so I would go over there. That was part of the social fabric, was to have some interaction
with Huston-Tillotson. Zoe Marshall: Then, were there any other spots
in Austin, broadly, that were parts for the black community in Austin?
Arleen Lawson: The churches were. A lot of us went to church. A few of us went to church
on campus, but a lot of us went to church over on the east side of town, so churches
were a part of that. You began to see part of the black community and that kind of thing.
Zoe Marshall: In regards to outside groups, on campus did you guys get support or experience
interactions with things like the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, the Black
Panthers, national organizations? Arleen Lawson: Oh, sure, we knew who they
were. We interacted with a number of those organizations, yeah. Stokely Carmichael came
to campus and spoke. We got a chance to see him and talk to him. Like I said, The Movement
was big, so when anybody came through Austin who was significant in The Movement they would
stop and interact with us. Yeah, we got to see a lot of those kinds of people who would
come to campus and that kind of thing. Zoe Marshall: You talked a little bit about
dynamics between white and black students, but while you were there were there other
students, like Mexican-American students, maybe Asian-American students that you guys
interacted with? Was there any sort of like solidarity or communication between groups?
Arleen Lawson: No, there wasn't anything like that. It was interesting that you asked that
question. Now, I had friends who were Asian and Mexican-American, but, no, there was no
student organization, none that I can think of. In fact, probably, if we were more in
line it would be with the white student organizations than we were than anything else because, in
fact, I don't think they had a Mexican-American. I know they did not have anything like a Mexican-American
organization on the campus then, not at all. Zoe Marshall: Did they not have a very notable
presence on campus? Arleen Lawson: Didn't have a very notable
presence at all. When I say that, I don't know about the numbers, I couldn't tell you,
but there were not notable presence. The other thing you have to understand ... I don't know,
are you also from Texas? Zoe Marshall: From Houston.
Arleen Lawson: Okay, let me explain something to you. In 1965 on the census and on driver's
license Mexican-American were considered white, so they were not designated as a separate
race, and they didn't have a cultural identity for a long time. I will tell you this because
I know a lot of Mexican-American activists. You have to understand that. Don't get me
wrong, there were Mexican-Americans who were active in The Movement, but there was not
a large cultural identity for a long time. Arleen Lawson: I will tell you, after I graduated
and went into the workforce, one of the things I learned was at that time there was almost
a whole generation of Mexican-American parents who didn't want their kids speaking Spanish
because they were trying to assimilate into the community. Those are whole issues, and
I'm not here to speak to that whole issue because that's something you might want to
talk to a Mexican-American about. Arleen Lawson: I was shocked when I went into
the workplace and I would meet, and they didn't even speak Spanish, and they were Mexican-American.
I said, "What?" They said, "No, our parents didn't want us to," because they were trying
to assimilate. Part of that helped with the fact that they were considered white on their
driver's license, so there was no designation for that. Cultural identity for Mexican-Americans
did not come until much, much, much later in terms of civil rights awareness. Don't
get me wrong, in the 70s I worked in the community with some Mexican-American activists, but
they were the exception rather than rule because there were people coming in, immigrants coming
in who needed that activism. Zoe Marshall: Then, on campus academically,
what was the cultural studies like? Did you feel that the curriculum was-
Arleen Lawson: There was no cultural studies, dear.
Zoe Marshall: There was nothing? Arleen Lawson: They didn't have anything like
that. Zoe Marshall: There was no African-American
studies [crosstalk 00:47:56]. Arleen Lawson: No African-American studies,
period, no Mexican-American studies, nothing like that. In fact, they had a faculty member
who was a tenured professor who believed that blacks were inferior, and wrote books on that.
There was nothing like cultural studies at all, and it was some years later that they
began to have cultural studies, but there was none at the time I was at the University
of Texas through 1969, none. Zoe Marshall: Was that an aim of some of the
activism on campus to get those kinds of programs? Arleen Lawson: No, we weren't even focused
on that. Let me just tell you, we were trying to get things integrated. We were trying to
get civil rights activity and goals met. We were not interested in cultural studies. You
have to understand, you have to achieve the basic first before you can begin to talk about
things like cultural studies. We were trying to get the first black faculty member. If
we could get that, then we might be able to get cultural studies, but, no, there was not
any focus on that at all. Now, you talk to some kids in the 70s, and they will talk about
that, but this was not happening when I was there on campus, not at all.
Zoe Marshall: Then, I guess, outside of UT, larger in the city what was the... I tried
to ask you about this a little bit earlier, but the cultural dynamics in the city? Like
how in Houston there's an African-American cultural museum now, and there's buildings
reserved for that, so what was that like? Arleen Lawson: There wasn't much in Austin
in that area at all. You have to understand that Austin had not integrated their schools
either. Don't get me wrong, there was a very rich African-American community, but that
richness was self-contained. It was not something where there were museums and things like that.
None of that had been done. My sister and some friends started the first breakfast for
schools, that was on the Austin east side. It was a free breakfast problem modeled after
the Black Panther model providing free breakfast for young black kids. We did that in East
Austin. Zoe Marshall: Then there were no theaters,
no museums, none of that. Arleen Lawson: None of that. None of that
occurred in Austin at the time. Zoe Marshall: Do you have any questions?
Serena Bear: I guess I would like to know more specifically about the organizations
you were in. I know on the phone you said you didn't remember the names or anything.
Arleen Lawson: Well, when you said the student, yeah, we were on-
Serena Bear: Well, and I had read that this one org, the name changed two or three times?
Arleen Lawson: Yes. It changed two or three times, but, yeah, I was involved with that
organization. I probably consider myself a part of SNCC.
Serena Bear: What is SNCC? Arleen Lawson: Students for Nonviolent [crosstalk
00:51:12]. Serena Bear: For nonviolent.
Arleen Lawson: Yeah. That was probably it. It was a very fluid situation, and people
were not too preoccupied with what you belonged to as much as what you stood for, was much
more important than what you belonged to. There wasn't that sort of thing. It was fluid
enough where we didn't have a lot of formal meetings, except to talk about the demonstration
or what we were going to do as it relates to that. People would sit around and talk
philosophy and what was going on. We did a lot of that in The Movement too. You began
to hear about Che Guevara and what was happening in the rest of the world and that kind of
thing. Arleen Lawson: In fact, I used to laugh, and
when I became a manager in corporate America and they started talking about globalism,
and I used to smile because The Movement was nothing but a global phenomenon. Globalism
was a term that I was already familiar with, so when the corporation started embracing
it ... Now it's a bad word, but there was a time when globalism was very much part of
what corporations were involved in. Arleen Lawson: It's the kind of thing where
there weren't like a meeting every month at 2:00 on Friday. It wasn't that kind of thing.
It was more informal gatherings and more of a fluid situation. The thing that I would
tell you, as I said, is that there were so many competing entrants, but those competing
entrants, for some reason, didn't chafe against each other, at least I didn't think they chafed
against each other when I was there. There might be somebody who was involved and wanted
to bring more socialistic activity in the United States, and then there might be a woman
who was involved in saying she wanted equality for women, and then we were interested in
civil rights. Like I said, the groups would come together and talk and socialize and that
kind of thing and demonstrate. Arleen Lawson: There wasn't much formality
that you might expect there would be, but there wasn't. When you think about organizations
and structure today, throw that out of the window because it wasn't that kind of a situation.
It was the kind of thing where there was a fluidity of what happened on campus and when
you did it and why you did it, and where there may be multi purposes because your friends
would support you, you would support your friends.
Arleen Lawson: Those demonstrations were significant because everybody would show up to hear and
listen to speakers talk about there's a need for equality for women, or somebody to talk
about why civil rights was important, not only on the University of Texas campus, but
the rest of the United States and the world, so those kinds of things. This was pre-Apartheid.
Now, you got to remember that that started in the 70s, but when we were there that was
not on the radar screen at the time. Serena Bear: It's interesting just because
most organizations on campus now have like weekly meetings, and they have all these things,
so it's interesting that you guys still did the job while just throwing together meetings.
Was there a lot of planning that went into your demonstrations, or was it kind of the
same thing happening at every demonstration? Arleen Lawson: There wasn't much planning,
other than to say, "Show up, and be ready." Serena Bear: Nice.
Arleen Lawson: That's what you do. If you are committed you show up, and you're ready
for whatever has to happen. No, there wasn't the structural planning. Sometimes I think
you over-plan, and over-planning can lead to paralysis, as I'm sure you all know.
Arleen Lawson: What we found that was successful was just to have a fluid group, and say, "Hey,
everybody show up here, and we're going to demonstrate about this, or we're going to
talk to so and so about this. Be there at so and so. We'll see you." That's the way
it was, and it worked. Now, I don't want to in anyway say that what's happening now, whatever
is going on, is the wrong way to do it, but then it worked then. There were circumstances
that made it work then that probably you could not do today.
Zoe Marshall: Do you remember any disagreements about methods or aims that came up in any
of those philosophical discussions? Arleen Lawson: There were always philosophical
discussions and arguments. We were young people, you could spend three hours arguing about
something, and then everybody would go home. It wasn't where people were fighting about
strategy or anything like that, no. We didn't have those kinds of arguments about strategy,
I would just tell you that. That probably had to do because everything was so fluid.
It helped too in a lot of ways because there wasn't anyone that had... You know, if you
had a leader, "real" leader, then that person would have to carry the brunt of the activity
and the hostility and also of that. You didn't have that.
Arleen Lawson: We had leaders, but it wasn't the kind of thing where everybody showed up
and waited till that person told us what do. You did what you knew you were going to do,
and you had to do it. You had to march, you carried signs. Somebody might have come up
with some signs and done something else, "Are we were going to show up here? How do we get
there?" That kind of thing. Serena Bear: You wouldn't necessarily say
there was an assignment of roles. Did you have a president or anything like that, like
leaders, kind of, or was everyone just kind of a member?
Arleen Lawson: No, I don't remember a president or officers that you had to vote.
Serena Bear: Right, none of that. Arleen Lawson: No, none of that.
Serena Bear: Interesting. Arleen Lawson: I'm not sure that that would
have been- Serena Bear: Any better?
Arleen Lawson: ... any better to have a president because one thing about organizing like that
is that takes time. When you're trying to do a demonstration at 2:00 that day, and you
want to get as many people there as possible, you've got to get the word out. We didn't
have, like I said, internet or anything like that. People would spend time walking around
campus and, "Hey, you coming to the demonstration? It's going to be here at so and so." If you
had time, and then you have to say, "Well, who is the communications officer? And that
person has to go out." That would not have worked. The circumstances for what we were
doing did not lend itself to that kind of structure, which would have been too rigid
for what we were doing. Serena Bear: Interesting.
Zoe Marshall: You mentioned you guys did your demonstrations and that you sued. Were there
any other methods that you used, and what was it like participating?
Arleen Lawson: Probably the legal avenues, demonstrations, those kinds of things, and
just meeting with people and talking with them. Now, like I said, we didn't get very
far, but we did meet with people and talk with them about what we wanted in terms of
having some representatives meet with the university president and talk about the need
for black faculty. Those kinds of things were happening on campus.
Arleen Lawson: I guess those were probably the primary things that we were focused on,
is those kinds of things because we were trying to change the University of Texas and make
it more hospitable to black students. Our focus was on that. Like I said, the meeting
with Darrell Royal, now, he didn't have to meet with us, he did. He was comfortable telling
us no, he wasn't going to get any black athletes on campus.
Zoe Marshall: Was student government something you guys paid any attention to?
Arleen Lawson: No, we didn't pay any attention to student government at all. They weren't
interested in us. They weren't doing anything for us. Why would we pay attention to something
that's not interested? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they had a very thriving student
government, but they didn't represent us, and they weren't interested in representing
us. Zoe Marshall: No black students ever tried
to run or garner support? Arleen Lawson: No, we were less than 200 black
students out of 30 thousand. What would that look like? What's the math on that? You have
to understand something about it, even with students, there were no black athletes. Now,
I would tell you, if we had a black football star we would have a chance of some kind of
government, but that wasn't there. Those kinds of things that make student campus life so
much more acceptable for black students was not in place.
Arleen Lawson: We all know people love people who win on athletics, and that winning on
the athletic field transfers over in a small way to how people feel about the other black
students on campus. We all know that is a real phenomenon, but none of that was there.
You didn't have that, so nobody tried to even deal with that. What would be the point?
Zoe Marshall: Then what about electoral politics off of campus? Were there voter registration
drives? Were you interested in [crosstalk 01:01:06]?
Arleen Lawson: We did all of that. You have to understand, the voter registration was
one of the big civil rights, it still is today, but let me tell you, we pushed hard then because
poll tax, some of that was still in place. Voter registration was a big deal, so we did
a lot of that activity too. There were people in the community, in the Austin community,
who were interested in that. We did work with them on things like that, yeah, voter registration
and that kind of thing. Zoe Marshall: Do you remember any black politicians,
maybe not in Austin, but from Texas in general or maybe in the South that were-
Arleen Lawson: There weren't that many. I'm not sure when Barbara Jordan got elected to
the state legislature. I don't remember when she got elected. You all can Google that,
but there weren't many blacks in the state legislature too. You didn't have a lot of
blacks in the state legislature who could talk about those things. There wasn't much
interaction. Arleen Lawson: The kinds of things that you
think about, none of that was in place, so those kind of parallel support systems were
not there. It was just us and what happened there. Don't get me wrong, there were prominent
blacks in the city of Austin who were interested in those things, but they were not interacting
with us on campus in that way. Zoe Marshall: You mentioned Huston-Tillotson,
which was a local HBCU. Arleen Lawson: Sure.
Zoe Marshall: I don't know, was there any sort of dialog in a greater sense or any sort
of solidarity between students at HBCUs like Prairie View A&M, or even farther away with
students at PWIs? Arleen Lawson: No, I would say that there
was none in that sense. The other thing that you have to think about was that
most of the activism occurred on the white campuses. In fact, I was talking with someone
who was at Huston-Tillotson who said the activism at UT influenced them to get active about
what was happening on their campus. In fact, I just saw her recently, and she started telling
me that, that it was because of our activism on the University of Texas that made them
begin to petition for better conditions at Huston-Tillotson and demonstrate because that
was not something that they had even thought about. We did have the influence from that
standpoint. Arleen Lawson: Those campuses that you named
were too far away. Probably the only thing that we did have influence on was Huston-Tillotson.
They talk about the fact that our activism really influenced them. It was seeing us get
out there and get after that that made them decide that they needed to do something. They
demonstrated and got some things changed on their campus.
Serena Bear: Awesome. Zoe Marshall: Great.
Serena Bear: Maybe like a concluding question, explain how your activism in the 60s, how
do you think that impacted us now where we're at now at UT?
Arleen Lawson: Well, I think we did some things that made the university a better place. Obviously,
from a standpoint of fully integrating the campus, we did that. We were the ones that
were protesting black faculty, which led to the black studies program. All of those things
were rooted in what we were doing on that campus in the early 60s. Yes, we had a profound
influence on the campus, and what the outcomes are today are clearly reflected of that.
Arleen Lawson: The university will be the first to tell you that they still haven't
done a good job of recruiting black students because the numbers are so low. Every time
I talk to administration at the University of Texas they talk about the fact that they
haven't done the job they should do in terms of recruiting African-American students.
Arleen Lawson: I think we done what needed to be done, and we were able to have a lot
of success in that respect. Our sacrifices were not for nil. We did some things on that
campus that made the university a better place. I think that when you look back on it, we
needed to be there to do that. I don't know what the university would look like if we
had not done that. In fact, young people laugh now and say, "God, I don't know how you all
did that and went to class too." I say all the time it was something you didn't even
think about it that way. It was something that you felt you needed to do, it was important,
it was the right thing to do, and so we did it.
Serena Bear: It was a priority. Arleen Lawson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Serena Bear: Awesome. Zoe Marshall: Then, do you feel like being
at UT, and your decision to go to UT, that that was the best decision for you in your
development as an activist and as an environment? Arleen Lawson: I think it was. It gave me
a political awareness that helped me in my corporation career. I had a very successful
corporation career. I don't think I would have had that had I not had the experience
I had at the University of Texas. Zoe Marshall: Then, would you say it was a
good environment, then, even with all of the obstacles [crosstalk 01:06:51]?
Arleen Lawson: It was a good environment for giving me what I needed to have in order to
be successful in corporate America. I think that the conflict, the dialog, the need to
understand others' viewpoints beyond yours, the need to understand that we live in a world
that's much larger than what's happening on the Red River, what's happening on the campus,
to understand that you're are an entity beyond that, that you are a global citizen, all of
those things helped me when I got into corporation America.
Serena Bear: Awesome. Arleen Lawson: I worked for a global company,
so those things really made me who I am today in terms of the kind of person that understands
that. Most people in the United States, a lot of people in the United States live within
a very small world, even in today's world, the internet and all of that, they still live
in a very small world. Their minds are very contained. I don't have that [inaudible 01:08:02],
having had that experience at the University of Texas and interacting with all of those
people. Arleen Lawson: A lot of the people who were
involved in The Movement were from other countries, students from other countries too. When you
have that kind of experience and that broad experience with those kind of people, you
begin to understand that you really belong to a much larger entity than what's happening
in your neighborhood, in your city. You know? Zoe Marshall: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Serena Bear: Yeah. Arleen Lawson: In today's world so many things
that touch us now touches everyone and influences now, even more so with the internet. You know?
Serena Bear: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Arleen Lawson: Things reverberate around the
world. They just don't happen in your community. Probably we were ahead of ourselves in terms
of having that experience because we understood that what we were doing was not just what
was happening on campus, but we were contributing to a global movement. I think that's important.
I think you have to be young, you best experience that young, as opposed to later. I think it
was great for us, and it made me a different person than I might have been had I not done
that. Serena Bear: Awesome.
Zoe Marshall: Quick question, you said there was an involvement of international students,
where were they from, European, Asian, African? Arleen Lawson: Most of them were European.
I remember we had somebody from Colombia, we had people from Brazil. From Europe, I'm
trying to remember where, in France, and I think Italy. A lot of them were involved with
The Movement because of Che Guevara and what was happening in the world and that kind of
thing, and particularly in the Latin communities about that.
Arleen Lawson: Now, we didn't have a lot of Mexican-Americans, I'll be the first to tell
you that. It's interesting because Fidel, Trotsky, all those people spent time in Mexico,
but they, obviously, didn't influence what was happening in Mexico. You got to meet those
kind of people that ordinarily I would not have met otherwise.
Zoe Marshall: I meant to ask this earlier, but the black student body, would you say
they were mostly African-American, or did you come into contact with some West Indians,
Africans? Arleen Lawson: No. At that time I don't remember
any African students. Most of them were African-Americans, for the most part. This was 1965, so there
wasn't a lot of recruitment, particularly at a school like the University of Texas for
African, West Indian people. Most of the people were African-Americans from towns all over
Texas, for the most part. I met people from Lubbock and other places, Marshall, Longview,
you name it, just like you would meet any typical Texas student.
Zoe Marshall: Okay, thank you so much. Serena Bear: I think that's about it. Thank
you so much. Arleen Lawson: Oh, you're welcome.