Uncle Billy's Brew & Que Interview

[Interviewer requests and receives permission to record the interview and to use the information gathered] 00:00:00 NIKO TONKS: This is Niko Tonks, recording for Foodways Texas. We're here at Uncle Billy's Brew & 'Cue, on Barton Springs, in Austin, Texas. And I'm here with Brian and Amos. And I'm gonna ask you guys to introduce yourselves, and just say you date of birth, for the record, as well. BRIAN PETERS: My name is Brian Peters, and I was born September eighth [8th], nineteen sixty five [1965]. AMOS LOWE: My name is Amos Lowe, and I was born April twenty second [22nd], nineteen sixty seven [1967]. NIKO TONKS: Alright. Alright. So, the - - the first [1st] thing I want to talk about is just - - just a very generally, some stuff, some personal history stuff. Brian, I know a little bit about your background. But Amos, I don't know anything about - - about you. So, do you want to just tell me how - - how you came to be in Austin brewing beer? AMOS LOWE: Yes, I haven't been around as long as Brian has. That's probably why you don't know so much about me. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: So, in the scene, in the scene, crusty guy. In the scene, I was a mechanical engineer most of my life. So, went to U.T., graduated from U.T., became an engineer, and I don't. A buddy of mine, Scott Simmons, invited me over for "Brew Day" at his house one [1] day. And that was it, I was hooked. I loved it; we had a lot of fun. And so, I 00:01:18 started to try to figure out a "Brew Beer". And lucky for me, Tim Shorts and Brian Peters were my local Brewers, at the time. And, so, they taught me pretty much everything I know. And, so, I continued engineering for much too long. Until. BRIAN PETERS: Well, we all did it. I did it too. AMOS LOWE: Until Swifty [sp], asked me to - - to work with him here. So, I started here part time, a few years ago. And then, after about a year of that, I started Brewing full time here. NIKO TONKS: So, when you said that - - that Tim and Brian, also with Swifty, we're gonna get to in a second [2nd]. It, they taught everything you know. Were you just coming by the Brewery, and asking questions? Or,? AMOS LOWE: Yeah, so, what I did was, I got a Recipe Kit, made one [1], decided what I liked, and what I didn't like about it. And then went up to the "Bitter Inn", and we would sit there, and we'd try beers. And they'd be brutally honest with me, and - - and we'd talked about, you know, how to change it, and how to make it different. And so, that's where I learned the most. And then Tim and Brian would recommend books for me to read. And I'd go home, and read them. And then, so, I did a lot of studying. I've always, you know, I come from an Engineering background. So, I enjoy Science and Brewing Science is the Science I enjoy the most. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: So, but it was mostly me Brewing beer, lots of beer, and bring it to them, and - - and then being able to handle, you know, what they had to say. And, then finally figuring out how to do it right, so. It took a little while, not long. 00:02:46 [Laughter] NIKO TONKS: And just, out of curiosity, are you, cause I'm always curious how people end up in Austin? Are you from Austin originally? AMOS LOWE: I'm from League City, which is South of Houston. I fell in love with a girl at U.T., and I had been in the Navy previous to that. So, I've been around a while. And got, went into The Navy to get money for school, cause I didn't have any. So, went to work for Lockheed Martin in Houston. And then, met Gretchen, my wife, and decided to go to U.T. to get an Engineering Degree. And so, that's how I ended up here, and I never left. NIKO TONKS: There you go. Alright. And, Brian, I guess, my first [1st] question for you is, where does Swifty come from? What's the deal with that? BRIAN PETERS: Well, counter what some people are saying, and out in the streets right now. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Let's just start with, I did not come up with it. Which is, I think, a good nickname, rule of thumb. Yeah, no rule, no making your own nickname. The Swifty's are half [1/2] pints. And I got the name, instead, I'm glad they didn't call me, "Half [1/2] Pint". From trying to keep people from leaving, when we were at "The Bitter End", and, you know. Like, "Oh, I've got to get going.? AMOS LOWE: He still does it; he did it to me today. 00:04:02 BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, "I got to get going", and I say, "Oh, come on, man, have a - - have a Swifty". You know, have a half [1/2] pint." And, no one [1] will say, no, if it's a Swifty. Right. I mean, what are they gonna say? Like, "I don't have time for a Swifty", are you kidding? So, of course, they always stay. And then I kind of like, give them some calamari, or whatever. And pretty soon, you're having a little "Happy Hour", and I don't know. I like the "Social Aspect", a lot, obviously, of the job, and that's part. And I think that's how I got that name, is mostly, cause I'm always asking people to have a little half [1/2] pint with me. NIKO TONKS: That's a good answer. That explains, so I'm drinking a Swifty right now. [Talking Over Each Other] NIKO TONKS: Alright. So, I know that your - - maybe your first [1st] "Professional Brewing" experience here, in Austin, was at "Lago". So, maybe it's a big story, and it's a too general question. But, how did - - how did Lago come to be? BRIAN PETERS: Well, that was, I moved to Austin in ninety one [1991], and soon after, I was - - I was "Home Brewing". I met Chip at a "Home Brewing Meeting", and Chip, Chip McElroy [sp], and we just decided that we should Brew together sometime. Cause we figured out we were both in Travis Heights, and he had a great "Double Bock", and I knew how hard Lagers were. I was already thinking about, you know, the outer reaches of Home Brewing, which is Lagers, and stuff. So, I was making some Lagers, and he wanted to, I didn't know his setup, and all of a sudden, I met him again. Not at a meeting, just walking around. I think we drove past him, we saw him walking his dog. And I said, "We've got to get together", and he had. He had the "Modified Kegs". I was still doing five [5] gallon batches. And that's when - - when we decided that we were, but I had a restaurant stove. So, he brought his "Modified Kegs" over to my restaurant stove, and there it was. "Live Oak" was born out of that basically 00:05:51 coming into my kitchen with those kegs, and sitting them on that stove. We both got into; obviously we were already talking Lagers. And he had been the - - to Prague, and I hadn't. But, I soon after went to Prague. And he told me where to go. And pretty soon, I was obsessed, as much as he was with "Czech Lagers". And we felt like, well, let's just jump real quick to - - to, we, for a minute, we considered a "Brew Pub". But let's just move forward. I passed that idea, that was not gonna work. They were just legalized, but we were not gonna be the first [1st] ones, nor the best ones to do that. And when we rewrote the Business Plan, to be a Production Brewery, it went a lot faster, and we raised the money, and we were still completely a "Shoestring Budget". I mean, it was as tight as you can make it. But we were able to get the money; we were able to get it going. And we found a great location, for what we wanted. But, I mean, we specifically wanted a "Meat Packing Plant", or an "Ice House". An "Ice Manufacturing" spot, and we found a "Meat Packing Plant". NIKO TONKS: Can I ask you why? Why one [1] of those two [2] things? BRIAN PETERS: The floors, you know, I mean, the ceilings are awful, but the floors are awesome. I mean, you've got - - you go to other Breweries, and their floors, and how many problems they're gonna have, because they haven't. I mean, every square inch of that is - - is treated, you know. And we just wanted floors that were already taken care of. Ready to be Brewed on. And, you know, we knew, I think we knew from the beginning, we were gonna be horizontal. I mean, obviously before the building showed up, we're not gonna be able to afford anything. We didn't have the money to do it. So, we were buying, we went to our first [1st] "Dairy Auction", before we had raised all the money, and bought tanks, and brought them back from. I think the first [1st] one [1] was in Tyler, that's way up near East of Dallas, right? Okay. So, a "Dry County", we had to register at the hotel, just to like have a drink. Have a beer. [Laughter] 00:07:40 BRIAN PETERS: And we went to the Auction, and bought a couple of tanks. The original ingredients, the hot and cold liquor, which is now, I think, just, I think you use only one [1] of them now. Those came out of Tyler. And that was long, before we raised the money. And we were just like, "We're going to go ahead and just put this Brewery together." And, you know, if you're determined enough, and you pretty much have a Vision, I think it's going to happen, it will happen. And that's, it took forever; it seemed like forever, at the time. From the Inception of when Chip and I said, "We're gonna start Live Oak, to when we actually sold our first [1st] keg", was close to three [3] years. It was, yeah. And the end of ninety three [1993], to the spring of ninety seven [1997], or, you know, January of ninety seven [1997]. So, yeah, it took a long time. But we, you know, raising the money for two [2] Home Brewers, who are basically really excited, in a community, I mean, that was the first [1st] wave of Brewing. So, there was a lot of excitement, at that time. But we were, we didn't have connections, you know. Pretty soon we, it took twelve [12] months to raise the money. And then, eventually we did, and "Live Oak". "Live Oak" has, we got rolling. But I wouldn't recommend it. I mean, we only raised two hundred and fifty thousand dollars [$250,000], and that's just not enough money, even back then. That's not enough, that was crazy. What we did was crazy. And we did it, cause we were determined. [Laughter] NIKO TONKS: So, money obviously was difficult. But how did you? How did you guys get the knowledge to - - to move from Home Brewing, in a ten [10] gallon, or, in fifteen [15] gallon kegs, to a thousand [1,000] gallon Dairy Tanks? BRIAN PETERS: I don't think we realized it was any difference. We just jumped. I mean, we knew, I mean, I - - I brewed at Waterloo a little bit. I knew how to Brew on a bigger system. But, overall, that was easier than Home Brewing. And, I guess, we scaled it up. Literally scaled it up. And, just literally, and just - - and just went. And it all worked just fine. 00:09:32 You know, and part of it is, I'm an engineer, you know, Amos is an engineer. Chip's kind of a, he's just - - he's just more of a theoretical Scientist kind of a guy. But he's definitely into it. He understands that the Systems involved. But I tore into taking used equipment, and whatever pieces we had, and built what you see today. Still it's pretty much what you see, is what I put together. All the In Brew House piping, all the electrical, I did. It's not pretty, but it functions, and we - - we understood what we wanted to do. And the truth is, going from Home Brewing to Large Production Brewing; actually the process isn't an issue. It's really running a business is, I think, is gonna be an issue. But Process wise, it's not a big deal. NIKO TONKS: So, just - - it's just the two [2] of you guys. How - - and - - and you're basically, you're doing everything. How did you arrive at the - - the conclusion to not bottle, just do Draught? And, how did that impact what you did? BRIAN PETERS: Well, we were gonna bottle, and we bought a Bottling Line. But then we didn't have quite the money. We - - we just didn't have any money. So, once you start with two hundred and fifty [$250,000], then you start not having money after that. We couldn't pay ourselves. We weren't able to really have enough money to buy more Malt. So, we're putting it on credit cards. You know, and you're just doing whatever you can to survive, hoping you can get to your "Break Even Point." Which I forget what we - - what we had determined was our "Break Even Point." But, let's just say it's fifteen hundred [1,500] barrels, or something. All of the Dream of Bottling, unless you have a - - a second [2nd] offering, or have somebody who just walks in, and says, "Here's another two hundred thousand [$200,000], is - - is out the window. So, all of that just sat outside. And we didn't touch it. And, and then, you know, the more we talked to Brewers, and the more we talked to Production places, they were like, "Don't bottle, it's the worst thing you can do. Just build your Draught." And it was way easier than going to look for more investment money, was to go sell another Draught Account. So, it was, "Let's get in that, and go sell another Draught Account." And that's what we do. We ice down the little tiny kegs, you know, these little 00:11:50 three [3] gallon kegs. And we put them in the back of the van. And we would drive in, with no appointments, and just go door-to-door, to bars. And talk to whoever is there, our Manager at GM, or whoever is there. "No, I don't have time". It was like, "Oh, but you've got time for, before I was fifty [50], you've got time for a little quick one [1]." So, that was my angle, was that Chip would start talking about how, cause we were like this crazy "Ben and Jerry's", like really crazy fanatical beer guys, driving around with beer in the van." And people were like, curious, "Like why? What are talking about? Who is your distributor? And what's going on? What are you talking about?" And it's like, and not having a distributor is really confusing to people. And then, I, that's when we would tag team. I would run out to the beer, I would grab some glasses from the bar. Go get some samples, and bring them back in. And, or they would come out to the van, and we would tail gate. And that's how we sold the Original Accounts. And we would sit there, and tell them the whole story. And the people would be just like, they'd go from, no "blanking" way, to "I will give you a tap, as soon as, you know, that one [1] comes up." When, after you tell them the story. Cause it's new people then. You know, now everybody and their brother is opening a Brewery, so, people are kind of used to it. Then it was, they are like, "We, what are you talking about? You have beer in your van? "You know, and it was pretty new then, for especially for people here. And so, and - - and educate them, and then, get them to get you a tap. It was nice, so. NIKO TONKS: Do you remember what the first [1st]? What the first [1st] "Live Oak" tap, where? Where it was? BRIAN PETERS: I think it was "Club", no "Dog and Duck", "Dog and Duck", and then "Club Deville". Club Deville used to come in, and they would start at the same time. They were building out, when we were building out. And so, we knew Michael and everybody from Club Deville, from the very beginning. And but, Club, but Dog and Duck, of course, and Billy Forester [sp], was ready from day one [1]. And, they were the first [1st] sale. And then, Club Deville was probably the same week. Those were definitely the first [1st] two [2] accounts. 00:13:44 Awesome, you know. Huge. Michael Parker was behind the bar, at - - at Dog and Duck, at the time. I mean, not Dog and Duck, yeah, at Dog and Duck. And he would sell Pales, he loved it. I mean, anybody would walk in, didn't know what they wanted, you have to have a "Live Oak Pales", and we sold a lot of Pales at the Dog and Duck. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: And he was the one [1] responsible. So. And, anyway is there more to that, not really. [Laughter] NIKO TONKS: Alright. So, I want to jump back to, maybe a more general philosophical question. Before we start talking about Uncle Billy's, in particular. And that's why you guys chose Brewing? Obviously both of you had backgrounds in engineering, like we were just talking about. So, what is it? What is it that - - that drove you to stop being Mechanical Engineer, in your case, Amos? And - - and go to "The Bitter End", and - - and get rejected? You know, on - - on beer advice? You know, what - - what made you keep coming back? AMOS LOWE: I [Inaudible]. BRIAN PETERS: He sees that about a history of being brutally honest. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: No, no, that's very valuable. Yeah, you've got to have people tell you the truth. I mean, when you first [1st] start Brewing, if you don't have somebody tell you the 00:14:54 truth. Then, you know, you're nowhere. So, you know, when you Brew beer at your house, and all your friends come over, they're not gonna sit there, and give you the, you know, the straight up truth. But, you need somebody that will so, you can get better. And end up, you know, here, someday. So, it wasn't "Means Beer", by any means. It was just the - - the Bible, and honest. but, I just, you know, I love, I always loved beer. Even as, you know, a really young man. So, I drank most of my life. And, then when I started, you know, Brewing my own, and then I was drinking beer at "The Bitter End". I mean, that was a magical time. The beer at "The Bitter End" was amazing, with him and Tim there at the same time, it was just nuts. And so, I just, I just fell in love with it. And then, you know, I wanted to create something like that. I wanted to do something that was special, and - - and that was that enjoyable to people. And so, you kind of touched on it earlier. The Social Aspect of it. I love, you know, that's why I'm in a Pub, and I love Brew Pubs. And I love it when people get around, and drink beer, and talk about what's going on. And, the Social part of it is - - it's one [1] of the things I like best. You know, sitting around, and talking to everybody, and seeing friends. And that's another nice thing about a Brew Pub, is your friends usually come by, and see you. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: So, I just kind of fell in love with it. And wanted to do it. I don't know exactly why. I think it's just because I was so taken by what they were doing at "The Bitter End", that I - - I wanted to get, you know, better as - - as a Home Brewer. And then, once I got into it deeper, then it just, you know, was obvious to me is what I wanted to do, so. And now it was a big jump. I mean, it was. [Talking Over Each Other] BRIAN PETERS: It wasn't - - it wasn't like obvious. I mean, now it seems obvious, in hindsight, maybe more so. 00:16:37 AMOS LOWE: Well, there's a lot of other things that, you know, in life, as you know, if anybody can just stop doing what they're doing, and do what they want to do, it's not that easy. So, for me, I, you know, it was a - - it was "My Dream" for a long time. It was more of a Dream, like someday, I will run my own Brewery, and, you know, it was kind of far off. And then, all of a sudden, it became not so far off, really quickly. And it was time to make a decision, and, you know, luckily my wife let me do it. And here I am. And now, you know, I get paid to make beer everyday, and it's the best job I've ever had, for sure. NIKO TONKS: I guess, the same question - - the same question to you. What is it? What is it that - - that, I mean, maybe you will just say the same things? But that - - that drives you to - - to do this, instead of, you know, have a desk job? BRIAN PETERS: Well, having a pad, I also was an engineer, right before I met Chip, an Electrical Engineer. And so, I had my time in the - - in the desk department a little bit. I feel like this allows a lot more control of what I do in my life. You know, when I wake up in the morning, I feel like I'm not just like a "Miniature Cog" in some weird giant machine. I feel like I control something all the way, to where people are drinking it. And, that's pretty awesome. That's probably the number one [1] thing I like is, that I love having my hands in the whole process, until it's delivered to the person, who is drinking it. And that's, I love all those aspects. I love every aspect of it. I love producing beer. I love making, I love the sounds, I love the smells. Which, yeah, you know, you just know. You know, in the morning, when you're taking that shower, and instead of dreading to go to work, you're like, "I can't wait to get in, and make beer." And, of course, like what Amos was talking about, again the Social part. Brew Pubs, for me, are, I've done both now, and I feel like Brew Pubs is a - - Brew Pubs is a better fit. Because of the Social Aspect, and the, I'm not looking to become a corporate, a big Production Brewery anymore. I don't want that. I never wanted that with "Live Oak." I wanted it to be, you know, maybe get up to about ten thousand [10,000] barrels, or something with maybe a half [1/2] a dozen employees, at the most. I see what other 00:19:09 Breweries go when they jump into the next - - next level, and it's a little too much for what I'm comfortable - - I'm comfortable doing. And so, at a Pub Level, you have, you have a lot more creativity still. You know, there's absolutely, they're - - they're completely two [2] different species, in a way, you know. You can do whatever you want, and it's so much fun. You're limited though, in what, how much you're gonna sell. But, man, it's - - it's still awesome, what - - how much do you want to sell? [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: You know. AMOS LOWE: Whatever you want everyday, that's pretty fun. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, that's definitely. Tim, and, if you ever get a chance, talk to Tim Shore, he - - he would definitely mention, I'm sure, that that's a big part of that he misses, from Brewing at a Pub. He Brewed at "The Bitter End" for nine [9] years. And, you know, now he's been a real help for, almost like probably nine [9] years. AMOS LOWE: Yeah, nine [9] or ten [10] years. BRIAN PETERS: And it's fun, man, we have a lot of fun. You know, I sat in a cubicle in an office for a while, and it wasn't good for me, man. It was difficult to be quiet that long. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: You know, I mean, this way it's, now I think about going back and sitting in an office, I just, man, I don't think I could do it. You know, it's just, like hands on, and actually doing physical labor, and producing something "start to finish", and having a good 00:20:23 time every day, and not dreading Monday. You know, is a - - is a wonderful thing. And when I first [1st] started full time, it took me a while to figure out what day it was. Because I used to always know, I knew what day it was, man. I knew, especially Sunday night, and I knew, you know, Monday morning, and I had all these things that I had to do. And then when I started Brewing Beer, it didn't matter, cause I had fun every day, and, you know, it was. It sounds kind of cliché, but it's true. AMOS LOWE: Oh, well, I saw it. You were here, just on Fridays, for a while. For whatever that was, four [4] or six [6] months. I don't remember how long. And you would get phone calls, and you would just be in the foulest mood, after the phone call. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Because the job site would call, or whoever was on the site, would call, and something was wrong, with one [1] of the, you know. And it's just like, "Oh, huh". And so, all of that completes - - seems to completely disappeared. There's none of that anymore. Yeah, you know, there's stress in this job, you've got to be good, and you, you - - - AMOS LOWE: It's hard. And it's hard work. BRIAN PETERS: Just talking about hard it is, it's a really hard job still. People get into this thinking it's all glamour. It's really a demanding job. It's a super demanding job. But when you see us on, you know, Friday afternoon, or something, we're having beers, it looks real easy. [Laughter] 00:21:37 BRIAN PETERS: But it is physically hard work, but I feel better physically. You know, I used to have upper back issues, sitting at a computer all day. I have none of that anymore, which is nice. But, yeah, it's a, there's a little bit of stress, as far as keeping the beers on tap, and keeping them moving, and being really good, and keeping everything tightened up. But, compared to where I was, it's, you know, not even the same ball park, so. It's a - - I'm definitely in the right place. And I finally got there; it took me a long time. [Laughter] NIKO TONKS: That's, you know, a lot of people don't ever get there. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: That's true. NIKO TONKS: One [1] of the things that both of you mentioned was, the - - the advantage of being in the Pub format, is that, you know, you get to brew what you want. And, I guess, the question I would have is, where do you? Where do you get ideas from? How do the - - how do the beers go from whatever idea it is, to - - to, you know, reality? And what is that? What is that process look like? BRIAN PETERS: Us chatting back and forth. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Well, it depends. A couple of aspects, for sure there's stuff you've had in your past. I mean, there's always, you know, if - - if imitation is flat, or there's definitely imitation and flattery involved. So, there's always things I've tried, that I'd like to try to 00:22:54 match. And I'm always intimidated, and - - and I put them usually in my "Top Five [5] Beers", are beers that I can't make. You know, I know I'm not good enough. But if there's something that I can try to make, and I think I can do a good job, I'm gonna probably try it. You know, if I love the beer, I will definitely try to make it. And, did a little research, a little just winging it, and see how close you get. "Hot Broad" is that way? I mean, you know, "The Hot Broad", would I rise, is - - is similar to that, cause it's just a beer. And then otherwise, it's just, yeah, whatever we feel like, you know. And a lot of times you come in, and you're changing it, as you go. And we - - we both have similar tastes, which really helps. I - - I would be interested to know, if there are Brewers that brew together that, that don't have similar tastes, cause that would be kind, to me, it would be really challenging. AMOS LOWE: It would be really hard to get anything done. BRIAN PETERS: I think it would be, you know, you talk about opposites attract, I think that would be a disaster. AMOS LOWE: And we do, you know, sometimes, like he said, we're inspired by people, and what they're doing. I have a lot of friends that are Brewers, and I'm impressed by them, and inspired by what they do. And so, they are definitely influences on me. And then, you know, there's times when we just decide to make something. Like "Oh, wouldn't this be cool? Maybe this would be really good." And so, we just sit there, and we figure it out that morning. And so, yeah, having similar tastes, we actually get through it pretty quickly. But if you had to battle somebody that was a little bit different, it would probably be a little more stressful. And - - and it wouldn't be as, you couldn't be as quick. You know, sometimes it's just, you know, thoughts. Like, "Oh, wouldn't this be good? Man let's try it." And - - and those are fun days, to me. When we're sitting here, you know, at eight [8] in the morning, and say, "Well, what are we going to do?" And we're milling grain, and we're, you know, heating water, and we're getting ready, that's really fun, man. You know, and then get it done it's, you know, even more fun to drink it. [Laughter] 00:24:42 BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, there's no "Test Batching." [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: Test Batch isn't in our System, is there? [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: And for our Full Batches, we feel pretty confident with the ingredients we use. We know them really well, you know, it's like a chef, and you're given, you're given a great coverage. You have whatever you need. That you just go in it, and figure it out. We both have Lager obsessions. And so, that helps, in terms of making. I don't, it's just good, you know, for me, we're - - we're not trying to have the longest name beer, with all the ingredients that go in it. We don't like that Coconut Ginger, you know, whatever. And if you go G Berry Infused, lactose, it's basically we like Traditional Styles, and then, you know, what - - what we've seen that's come out of them, are like the Belgian, the American hybrid stuff, and things like that. And, but we like the Classics for sure. We both like Belgian Ales, but mostly like The Blanc, The Triples, the drier ones. We - - we do not like Maltie Beers, so that works out pretty well. Except for those who don't, you know, want to come in here and drink Malty Beer. AMOS LOWE: We tried to make one [1] sometimes. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, you know, there's things that we have in common, that it's like, you know, we're basically twins, in a way. We're not gonna race to make an English Style Beer. But he's come more, in terms, around, in terms of us making Sours, and - - and like a Flanders's Red, and - - and even a Limbic [sp]. We - - we were playing around with that a little bit more. When I first [1st] met, Amos, it was like, "That goes out." But. 00:26:26 AMOS LOWE: I love it, I love Pilsner. I mean, a lot of the Pilsner's, the big part of the reason I'm a Brewer, man, I had that beer, and I was, "This is the best beer I've ever had." How do I make this? And that's why those are called, "[Inaudible] Beer", it's a better [Inaudible], and so now he's in there every day. Talking about fermentation, and stuff. How do I make this beer? And he told me, you know, and we get our books, and we'd read books, and just, you know, it was. And so, for the longest time, that's all I wanted to do. For like six [6] years, all I made were Lagers. You know, mainly Pilsner, because that's what I like to drink at home. And then I went to Pale Ales, and IBA's, and then, you know, what was it? Two [2] years ago, I guess, at the CVC, we saw the guys from Canton [sp], were - - were giving a seminar. And I was so inspired by their passion, and by how, you know, for them, it was all about tradition, and - - and how their great grandfather did it, and the grandfather, and the father, and now the son. And it was just very inspiring to me. And so, then that sort of got me into the Sour Beer thing, whereas I wasn't that into it before. And I like it as, you know, fun projects. But I still, you know, if I had to Brew Pilsner every day, I wouldn't be sane. [Laughter] NIKO TONKS: How often do you make a Pilsner Brew? [Talking Over Each Other] NIKO TONKS: I was gonna say, I don't think I've seen one [1] here, yeah. AMOS LOWE: No, we can, every once in a while, I make Helen Keller here. I make Psycho Keller, they're all Keller, we - - we don't filter anything, so. And then we made the 00:27:49 Dugle, [sp], which is a nice Lager. But, I don't get to do it enough, you know, we used to be so busy that, it was hard to keep anything, you know, on tap. And now, we're managing it pretty well, and I think we will probably may come down with a few varieties, and maybe keep a Lager on for a while, which we would both love to do, so. You will probably see more. And that way, I can have it at home all night. NIKO TONKS: Okay. AMOS LOWE: And - - and that's a key, I know, from personal experience. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: Make what your like. NIKO TONKS: One [1] thing you said, made me think of something. But you were - - you were listening to the Canton [sp] people, talking about, you know, what it's like to be doing the same thing your great grandfather did, in - - in the same way. And knowing everything so particularly, I think it is deep in tradition. And - - and this might be a - - a tough question, or one [1] without an answer. But, what do you? What do you guys think it's like to be, essentially American Brewers who brew what you like to drink, but aren't steeped in that same sort of tradition? Like where do you? Do you feel a - - a tug from tradition? Or, are you just really out in the wind, doing whatever you want? AMOS LOWE: I - - I think we're, I think it depends. I don't, we're not bound by tradition, as much as like the English, or the Germans. You know, the Americans are - - we're - - we're kind of going crazy, and, you know, thanks to Prohibition, almost killing Brewing totally in America. We, our tradition is not as strong as theirs. And so, as far as creativity goes, we - - we get pretty loose. But, when it comes to check bills, I don't, you know, I don't 00:29:20 want anything funny happening in there. You know, it's like there's a certain way they made it, and they've made it that way forever, and that's the way it shall be, for me. And I know some people find that boring. But, you know, when it comes to those beers, I think we're both super traditional about that. But, on the other stuff, we do like the "Brew Offs Hybrids, and stuff, we get pretty creative, so. I think we're, we've got an "Eye on Tradition" always, with The Classics, but we get a little bit loose in the "Brew Offs", but it's all relative. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Well, I mean, there's so many "Start Ups" with all kinds of crazy stuff. I mean, not crazy, but they - - they're trying to, some of them seem to be almost trying too hard, to create styles, or to generate some kind of a. I don't know, just a lot of buzz over things that - - that haven't been brewed in a while, you know. Egyptian stuff, or something, you know. I - - I personally look at, my - - my, what I want to drink is really important, you know. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: I think that's basically, I think one [1] of the - - the best thing that you will find from "Great Brewers" is, if you agree. If you enjoy their beers, it's - - it's probably cause you have similar styles and taste, because if they're not brewing what they love, it's gonna show, you know. And so, what we make, we love. It might not be as sexy, I love Lagers, I think they're awesome. I think from the - - the minute I became a Home Brewer, I knew, after Brewing a couple of Porters, or whatever, and Pale Ale, that I was gonna make Lagers. And then I heard a lot of Home Brew, you know, chit chat, that it's just not cool. You know, Lagers aren't cool, because that's like. "Well, we got into this to make Ales, man, because Lagers are the problem." And I say, "What do you mean?" You know, and then they're talking about Domestic everything that is on the shelves, at the time. It's like, "No, 00:30:59 there's all kinds of other Lagers. There's - - it's amazing what's out there." And that is how we got to build "Live Oak Pils", is basically, Chip and I had that - - that feeling like, "No one [1]'s doing it. And no one [1] gets it." And I think they will. If we just do it right. And that's how we be got to - - to "Lager Pils". To, do I think people are coming around? Not very fast. I don't think an all Lager Brewery would just succeed. I think it's too tough. I don't think people get it that much. Gordon Beer does pretty good. But, other than that, there's not a lot of "All Lager Breweries". Or, German - - I guess they're German Stock doesn't make a [Inaudible] beer. But, you know, I think we can get creative, and I love, you know, I just love the - - going over to Germany, and the Czech Republic, and seeing the history, and the tradition. And, you know, specifically we made the De Coction [sp], and style life of the Pils, so that we were part of that, the De Coction [sp], Move, it wasn't even the Movement, it was we were carrying the tradition of the De Coction on, partly because we thought it mattered. And partly because there's history to it, and Michael Jackson, when he was, you know, coming by to visit, and when he was alive, was very much a proponent of it, of keeping that tradition alive. And he recognized that, and he definitely liked what we were doing. NIKO TONKS: So, a couple of things, for people who - - who don't know. A, can you just, thirty [30] seconds on De Conction [sp], and B, thirty [30] more seconds on - - on Michael Jackson, the - - the beer guy, not - - not Michael Jackson, where? Not the "Kind of Pop". [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Okay, De Conction [sp] is the style of; it's in the Brew House. It's a Style of Mashing, where it takes a portion of the, it mashes, when you mix the water with the grain, the Crush Malt. You, in the old days, they couldn't heat the whole vessel, and they would need to do steps, at different temperatures steps. And to accomplish that, they would pull some out, boil it, and put it back in, to raise the temperature of the overall mash. And, that worked really well with the malt they were using, at the time. And they gave, you know, 00:33:05 it just gave it a certain characteristic. It's since kind of gone by the way side, because we have better Malt, and energy is getting more expensive, and you just don't have to do it. You can create a great beer, without having to do it. We've decided, from a long time ago, that we - - we knew we didn't have to do it, but we thought it would be fun to do. And it would get us, you know, again, carry the tradition. We weren't worried about energy, at the time. We just were "Start Up Home Brewers", who thought it would cool to get Michael Jackson's attention. Michael Jackson, who the one [1] who didn't just wear that one [1] glove, was a Beer Writer, Beer basically, one [1] of the Best Beer Writers ever. I think he is recognized as, and he's from - - and he's from England. And he recently passed away. But he's, you know, if you ever want to know more about beer, you will - - you will definitely look, and in the library, or in your book store, and you will see Michael Jackson's name. He is one [1] of the best writers you will ever see. And he could pick out flavors in a second [2nd], that you would struggle to figure out. And that's why I loved him so much. Cause he's so articulate, and he had such a great database of flavors. And he - - he came to, well, this is the story I - - I don't know, I never heard of this story. AMOS LOWE: Yeah, yeah, he came to "Live Oak". And we were sitting up for the JVF, so, okay, we started brewing in ninety seven [1997], he came in, and right, I guess it would be August? I was, I don't know what I was doing. But he, I was determined not to make a big show, you know, like roll out a red carpet. I was just gonna show him that we were "Every Day Guys", making beer. And so, I'm working on that awful Keg Box we had, the big Dairy one [1], at the time. And he walked, he comes in, and I just, you know, and we say, "Hello", and I said, "Let me get you a beer." And, we show him around, and everything was great. Because, you know, I - - I was, of course, in complete awe. But I'm trying to be like, "I'm just - - I'm just making beer here. I'm just a regular, Joe, you know." And he - - he, the only, the only interesting thing, I think, that happened, was our conversation of, smelling the beers. You know, the Pils, and my, you know, the reason why I'm so obsessed with it is, that there's more to the Czech Beer than just that Malt Aroma, and Hop Aroma. I - - said, "Well, I think there's a Yeast Aroma that's really characteristic of these beers, that I really love." 00:35:24 And he said, "Oh, tell me more, you know, okay, give me more on that." And I said, "Well, you're the - - you're the damn writer. You know what it is that I'm talking about. I'm not sure how to describe it." But, I think that was part of it, was going to the Czech Republic, and trying some of the smaller Breweries. They still filtered it, but they were being like almost, you know. There's like this, maybe it was just a breadie thing, where it's the Malt and the - - the Yeast, over all, coming together, to make like a Bread Aroma. That I just really loved. And, he acknowledged it, for sure, which made me feel better. It was like; he didn't call me a "Crack Pot". But, and he loved the Brewery, and, you know, and since went on, and we mailed him beer to London. And he would review it. And he put us in one [1] of his books, so. You know, we would have, he said, "He would put us in his top", I forget what it was. Top Fifty [50] American Beers, but we just weren't widely distributed. AMOS LOWE: Something in, yeah. Beer Distributing In a Greater Area", or something. I remember seeing that somewhere. There's pictures of them at "Live Oak" somewhere too, I've seen. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah. I think I've seen maybe once or twice. I'm not sure. And it was back when St. Pat's brought him in to "The Home Brew Shop". AMOS LOWE: I'm really trying to remember where I read that. I read that somewhere, in one [1] of his books. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah. AMOS LOWE: That was pretty cool. That was a pretty big moment, man, I thought. That's pretty special. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah. Yeah. How he got here. 00:36:42 [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: Yeah, he. BRIAN PETERS: He acknowledged, he recognized exactly what I wanted, and what I was striving, what we were both, Chip and I were striving for. And it wasn't that he was gonna say, "Oh, you know, your beer would be crap, without doing "The De Coction". He's just like, "You guys are just passionate. And you love it. And you're just freaks, you know, you're standing out on the edge doing it your way." And it's, that's what he used to seeing in Belgium. And that's what he's used to, Germans do it, because they're so "Stead in Tradition", they can't change. You know, they have sense, but, the Czechs were still doing it. And he just loved that, you know, you've seen "Live Oak". He loved that we were able to produce what we were - - what we were drinking in that Brewery. He was just like, "Wow, that's pretty amazing." So, I think we, be basically combine Czech Republic and Belgium in that moment. [Laughter] NIKO TONKS: Fusion. AMOS LOWE: Yeah, fusion. NIKO TONKS: So, the, I guess the next thing I want to talk about, and you guys probably both have something to say about this. Is, after you left "Live Oak", you went to "The Bitter End"? You - -you were Brewing there? And this is the place that doesn't exist anymore? And that I never actually got to go to. Can you guys give me a sense of? Of what that was all about? And, you know, and what "The Bitter End"? What - - what was the deal with "The Bitter End"? 00:37:54 BRIAN PETERS: I - - I think it's just that the beer was so special. It was, you know, overall; it was a really nice place. And it was really good food, great beer, the best beer I've ever had, in the City. And, the clientele was a really great group of people. You know, everybody was there, cause they loved the food, and the beer. And so, the sort of Social Part of it was great. And then the beer, you know, it was really interesting for me, having the Brew Pub right downtown. You know, cause I've always lived close to downtown, so it was like it was in my neighborhood. And so, that made it really special. Especially getting their early enough, to be able to smell them Brewing, and, you know. Their in there sweating like pigs, trying to make seven [7] barrels of beer. Was it seven [7] barrels? AMOS LOWE: Well, yeah. BRIAN PETERS: And, I don't know why I remember that. But, and - - and the beer was just special, man. I couldn't wait, I was all excited to get in there, and see what they were doing next. And it's, you know, it was very, everybody was, the people are still nostalgic about it. There's something really special about it. And, they still have Anniversary, "Bitter End Anniversary Parties" where - - where all the people get together, and drink beers, and so, it's just a really special place, man. NIKO TONKS: What? What happened? What - - what prompted it to close? BRIAN PETERS: There is a lot of speculation on that. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: Wow. NIKO TONKS: No comment, in other words? 00:39:12 BRIAN PETERS: Uh, yeah, basically. There was a fire, a Sunday, August something, something, two thousand, two thousand and five [2005], and in the kitchen, and it burned the ceiling, in the kitchen, brought out the fire trucks. Sprayed out the kitchen, pretty much completely destroyed the kitchen. Power is off. I get back from; I was in Cincinnati, get back to find out that, we have no electricity. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing. I bring in flood lights, you know, extension chords and lights, and we - - we keg up as much as we can. And, stick it in a cool, Live Oak, and that, you know, hopefully the T.A.B.C. doesn't get mind about this. And put it. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Put it in Mezuluna's cooler across the street, cause Reid Clements was the owner, and he had the Mezuluna across the street. We - - we were under the impression that he was gonna take the insurance money, and rebuilt it. I don't know exactly, when that changed. But, so, we went from August through, we kept the B side open, which is, was a part of The Bitter End. You know, next to The Bitter End, part of, just, I guess, a real big part of why The Bitter End was so cool. Was this place called, "The B Side", a kind of a lounge. And we kept that going through December, and then he told us like, "December thirty first [31st], that that was our last day. We're closing everything down." And that was that. And I was told to sell the equipment. And, I couldn't believe it, you know, one [1] minute, he's telling me "to buy, go ahead and look for a spot. You know, buy some unless, we will rebuild that whole back room. Put in fermentation. Put in some windows, where all those coolers are. We're redoing all of it." And the next minute, it's like, "We're all done." [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Tim had already left, it was, I was in charge, at that point. And Tim was at "Real Ale", and it just, it was such a big bummer. A lot of people were really, really 00:40:56 attached to that. And they still are. I mean, yeah, and he mentioned how many people still talk about it. You will hear a lot of people still bring up "The Bitter End". And I'm sure you've heard, and, you know, "It was like a good place." It just had a, it just had a lot of people, who really cared about beer. You know, a lot of people were there, because we made Pale Ale, it was awesome. And they came to drink the Pale Ale. And it was like, that was an early movement, of which now, everything else continues to grow out of, was that the - - The Pale Ale at The Bitter End was where everybody drank, just crap loads of it. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: It was oh, it was the most, we Brewed it the most often. NIKO TONKS: So, maybe that's a good segway into talking about it. And I know that you were talking early about, something you find interesting is, is the Brewing Culture in Austin now, in the last - - the last, whatever it is, two [2] or three [3] years, that things have kind of just exploded around town here. And I was wondering, if you guys want to talk about your sense of what? What's going on in town right now? How things have changed? And where - - where you see it going? Big question, I guess. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, I don't know, I - - I think time will tell. And there are a lot of Breweries open up. There was a lot that opened last year, and a handful, I guess, this year too. And, it's a little - - little overwhelming really, to kind of keep track of what's going on, you know. It's - - it's that so much is happening so fast, so. But, the, you know, our community growing, and I think along with that, it will obviously change, so. Things are changing, you know, right away for us, just as far as, personalities involved in the community, and how many people there are. And, you know, what - - what the general sort of mood is, within the community. It used to be just a handful of guys, you know, we all helped each other out. And, everybody was very open, and - - and, I think, as competition gets a little bit 00:42:44 tougher, that will change a little bit. So, but I don't know. We will see. But there's definitely a lot of Breweries opening, and so, hopefully they will all make real good beer, and do a, that will be, you know, the best case scenario. I mean, we would have a lot of Breweries, but, I don't know. It's all Production Breweries too. There are a couple of Brew Pubs opening. But, other than that, it's all Production, so. We will just have to wait, and see what happens. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, it's exciting. I think it's exciting. But it's exciting, as in like, in kind of a scary way, for sure. It's, we went from, if you, it's like you said, "It's hard to keep track of what's going on." We went from being like a County Fair. And now we're becoming Six [6] Flags, or something, you know, It's just like exploding to the point, you're like, "What? What? What? Where did that come from?" You know. AMOS LOWE: And today, somebody sent me a link to another Brewery website, and it was like, "Wait? What?" And so, there's another one [1]. And it's just, it sort of have been happening that way. BRIAN PETERS: We've been dormant for so long. And why is this cycle happening the way it is happening? That's what I can't figure out, is that it really was quite for a long time. AMOS LOWE: Yeah. Yeah. BRIAN PETERS: Independence, then Five [5] One [1] Two [2], like four [4] years later. And then now, it's like, "What?" It's completely five [5] or six [6] year opening a, - - a, so. AMOS LOWE: And it is "The National Growth", you know. The Craft Beer Market is growing. So, maybe people think it's - - - BRIAN PETERS: It's an inspirational thing, almost already too. I think there's a whole wave of kids that are way younger than me, obviously, they're coming up through the ranks. 00:44:18 BRIAN PETERS: Same deal, Home Brewers have great beer, want to do it, and it's just, maybe it's a cycle thing that happens. But, I obviously, there is Growth still in the Industry. Well, it's - - it's not a ton. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: We're not that big. AMOS LOWE: What's happening in Austin, and in - - in Texas is not normal. It's - - it's a lot of Breweries opens up. You know, I would expect that it to grow a little bit. But it seemed like all of a sudden, a lot of. What? We counted like ten [10]. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah. AMOS LOWE: In the last couple of years. And that's got to be an exception to any rule really, so. BRIAN PETERS: Yes, obviously, statistically they won't all make it. And, you know, I don't think the Market can absorb that many that fast. But I've never seen a Market, I've never seen this happen before. So, I'm just speculating. You know, we will - - we will definitely have a little bit of a fall out, I think. There won't be, there's not enough room for another, yeah, from go from "Five [5] One [1] Two [2]" is to have additional twelve [12] Breweries in Austin, it's too much. AMOS LOWE: Well, there's only so many faucets, so, that's - - that's what's gonna be interesting, to me, is to see how it all works out, as far as. Cause, you know, you've got to make the beer, and that's Step One [1]. And you've got to be really good at it. You've got to get - - you've got to sell it too. You know, it's a business, like Brian said earlier. 00:45:44 [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: You've got to sell beer, if you're gonna make a living. So, it's gonna get - - competition is gonna get pretty, pretty tough around here. And, I think, you know, vying for Tabs Accounts is gonna be, it's gonna ramp up quite quickly. And we will see what happens. But, you know, first [1st] they've got to get really good at making consistent - - consistently great beer. And then, you know, get somewhere to sell it, so. I don't know, it's interesting to me, I - - I don't know what the limit is. I don't know how many can our Market support? Is everybody just waiting? You know, is - - is all of a sudden, all the beer that they are making gonna be, you know, snapped up, and? I don't know. I don't think so. I think, you know, Austin is, as far as Texas goes, is advanced. Or, I guess, better educated as Craft Beer Market. There's definitely more people here that drink Craft Beer, than Houston or Dallas. As witnessed by the number of Breweries, I guess. Maybe that's why. But I think outside of Austin, I think it's still not - - not easy. It's not gonna be easy. I think there's a lot of education to be done, before the other, you know, people get off the - - the Massed Produced Lagers, and start drinking something locally. You know, Austin's got this whole local thing going. Like, you know, eat local food, drink local beer, buy local stuff, and so. I think that helps us a lot. But, as far as a Distributing Brewery goes, I don't know how it's gonna go outside the City of Austin. You know, it will be interesting to see what happens. Maybe a bunch of Beer Bars will just pop up too. And then they will all have faucets, I don't know. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Yeah. AMOS LOWE: We will see. I think there's gonna be a bit of a shake up, for sure. Like I said. 00:47:22 BRIAN PETERS: I - - I wish them all the best. Like, Amos said. All you got to, you know, make great beer, and then go sell it. And I think they would all survive, if they can both of those. Maybe not, but probably, you could, this town would - - could absorb all of it. Cause, I mean, when we're talking about Draught only, for a lot of them, for a long time. And I think what we will see is Draught Bars becoming, the majority of the taps will be local. And we're not there yet. So, you go into a twenty [20] Tap Bar, it will be thirteen [13] Local Taps. Instead of, right now it would be five [5] or six [6]. And I think that's where we need to get. AMOS LOWE: Yeah. Yeah, that would be really nice. And I - - I think it will happen, if the beer is great, and they sell it, you know. I think all of that can still happen. That's the way it is in Seattle, and that's the way it is in Portland. You go in those bars, and they have them. So, we're gonna have to get there. And some of them might not be able to make their beer good enough, or sell it good enough, to get to that point. But I think you will see that, if the majority of the beers on the wall are from Austin, then I think we're getting there. You know, I think it's, that's what the Market is asking for it. And it's keeping the momentum, you know. BRIAN PETERS: That would be really nice. You know, they, and that, and there's an opportunity there, cause just because the taps are full, doesn't mean they have "Slow Sellers", right? So, you get in there, and - - and work your magic, and get them to put your keg on, there's - - there's, you know, there's accounts to be had. And then if your beer is great, and people are going in there, and buying it, of course, they're gonna keep on, cause that's their business too, they want to sell beer too, so. It will be great. We will see. It would be nice to see the proportions change. You know, most of the taps are - - are local guys, or, at least, within the State. AMOS LOWE: That will bring the CBC back. It was like, what? I forget, it was here two thousand and seven [2007], it was the Craft Brewer's Conferences in Austin. And it was just like, Five [5] One [1] Two [2], I don't even think had gone into Production yet. And there's was like, all you guys, you know, if you could see us now, Look what's happening. You know, 00:49:16 and they will come back, for sure. But, and they love coming to Austin, and everything. But it was kind of what you call, "One [1] of the slower periods." You know, and, you know, I'm thinking I was working with Nancy Johnson, a friend of the CBC. And it was, you know, it was like, "I wish we had more to offer." We had the only Brewery downtown was "Love Joy's", and I guess it still is. And there's just really, you know, "Independence, and Live Oak, and Real Ale", there just wasn't anything happening relatively speaking. And now, obviously it's gone completely the other way. So, I think they will come back obviously. But, it was one [1] of those awkward times, where I felt like, it was, during that conference, when I interviewed for this job, so. It was of those transitional times, I guess, you could say. NIKO TONKS: Do you think? And - - and this is a bit of a deterent maybe, but do you think that there's a? Do you think the way people interact with - - with beer, and Brewers has changed Wholesale? I know you were saying that, you know, when you started out, it was, you had beer in a van. What, and that's weird, and - - and we're supposed to buy this, and you make it? Is - - is it just a "piece of cake" to people get Craft Beer now? Or, are you still sometimes fighting an "Uphill Battle", getting people to drink, you know, a "Belgian Hybrid I.P.A", or something like that? BRIAN PETERS: I think they're - - they're a lot more receptive to it now. I think they're, you know, still beers that they're, the General Public is not ready for yet. There's still stuff that's a little out there for them. But, then a great deal of difference, between when you guys started Live Oak, and now. You know, you get Breweries, even National, you know, Breweries like Dog Fish Head, and all, and New Belgium, and all those people that just sort of blew up. And now it's pretty well known what it is. And, and it's not as surprising when, whereas, I think, in the early nineties [90's], and mid nineties [90's], it wasn't as. AMOS LOWE: Yeah, it's "semi faddish", for sure, at the time. Cause it did burst, and - - and not burst, but ninety seven [1997] was like the peak of the first [1st] wave. And, now it's definitely more mature. The Market's definitely more mature. 00:51:20 [Talking Over Each Other] BRIAN PETERS: And less, less. AMOS LOWE: Go ahead. BRIAN PETERS: There's - - there's less raspberry wheats out there. AMOS LOWE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. BRIAN PETERS: Contract Brewing was probably what slowed us down, for sure. A lot - - there was a lot of that. There was a - - there was a lot of people just in, because it would look sexy. Hopefully we don't, I don't see that quite as much, in this lap, in this new wave. But I also see some of it. Like people are just getting in, because it's like. "Oh, we can do this. We can make beer. We can, I'm sure people buy it." And it's like, wait, there's a lot more to it than that. But, yeah, overall, I think, I forgot. I'm having a brain fart. I forget where we were. AMOS LOWE: Flavor of the Market, and that's it, you know, they're more receptive to Craft Beer now. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, it's not - - it's not, but it depends on where you are. I was gonna say the Internet has helped a lot, for sure. The Internet has helped a lot. So, between people developing a taste for it, which is, you know, whatever percentage. You know, we bumped up from being three percent [3%] to five percent [5%] of the Market Nationally. I mean, it's taken one percent [1%] per decade, you know, or whatever. It takes a long time to get a one percent [1%]. Too, but just the Internet, and the buzz ability of it all, and the fact that it's cool to be able to get that information, and hunt it down, and go get that beer you want. You know, I - - I, the people love, I think, tracking which beers they've had, and where they've gotten them. Or, it used to be the "Whip Inn", and now, you know. You go to the "Whip Inn", 00:52:44 and you try all the beers. But you don't blog it, and you don't tell anybody really. You tell your friends at work. AMOS LOWE: Like there are Food Movements too, you know, it's the food, and just real food. You know, people sort of moved, you know, in a direction of "Local Food and Well Prepared Food", and, or, you know, eating more, and getting more educated about food too. And beer sort of paralleled that a little bit. You know, why people have always talked about wine, and beer, was kind of ignored. I guess, for a long time, and now beer is, you know, in the same conversations. And I think that has helped a lot too. Just the, you know, the Basic, you know. What is a good meal? What do you drink when you're eating a good meal? And that's sort of started to happen for here, which is nice. So, there's been all kinds of things happen that - - that affected our Market positively. And people are more educated about it. And, I think in any large City now, you can go up to anybody, and they would know, you know, what - - what a Craft Beer is. Whereas, it took awhile to get there. You know, but you go - - BRIAN PETERS: Still so far to go. And I know, maybe we won't get there. I mean, we just get people walk in every day, who have never heard of us. Or, never, didn't know we were here, or whatever. And it's, and it happened at "The Bitter End" all the way to the finish. "Oh, you know, we've lived in Austin our whole lives. We didn't even know you were here." You know, and now we're open for eleven [11] years. And it's just - - it's just. AMOS LOWE: Some people didn't know, you know, there's a girl, a lady, a nice lady in here yesterday. And, she tried the "Blond Ale", and it was too big for her. She was like, "This beer is just too big for me." And it's, you know, almost the smallest beer we make. [Laughter] [Talking Over Each Other] 00:54:19 AMOS LOWE: [Inaudible] Martini, right? BRIAN PETERS: She had - - had something funny like, something, maybe Bourbon and Coke, I think she switched to Bourbon and Coke, or something. Which is okay, I don't condone putting coke and Bourbon, by any means. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: You know, leave it alone, maybe put an ice cube in it. But, you know, it's really funny, it's everybody's pallet is different. You know, and for us, the "Blond Ale" is this light, elegant, dry thing. And for her it was, like uh uh, too much. "You know, this beer is too much for me." So, you know, for some people never, Craft Beer will never be their thing, but. I don't know, I think it will continue to grow, not at the rapid pace it did, the last couple of years. But, sort of slowly like it did, you know, five [5] years ago. But still, you know, when you've got people like Budweiser, and - - and S.A.B., and Millers, and Coors, stuff, and all that money for Marketing, it, you know, it's a getting Market Share is tough, so. NIKO TONKS: I guess I, that kind of brings to one [1] of the last things, topics I want to talk about was, and it's, you know, it's not as much of a sore subject, as it when I started doing this project, at six [6], or whatever it was months ago. But, talking about Legislation and - - and Legal changes, you think might - - might help Craft Beer in Texas? And also, talking about what - - what the Texas Craft Brewers Guild is? And - - and what they do? And how you're involved with it? Cause I know, Brian, you're on The Board, I think. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, yeah, I'm on The Board of Directors at the Texas Craft Brewers Guild, which is, was the. The Initial Guild was formed in the nineties [90's], and kind of fell apart, due to just, I think, like the Wave of, you know, of Initial Breweries and everything. It was, we all got together, we formed a Guild, it was really well put together. But, I think it was 00:56:05 based in Dallas, more or less. And I, I can't say specifically that was the reason. But, it dissolved eventually, or just - - just kind of languished. We came together about, I guess, it was three [3] years ago now, to - - to kind of bring it back. And, somehow I ended up on The Board. But Tim Shorts is the President, and we're, yeah, it's really good. I think there is a lot of guys who are coming into the industry, who - - who want to feel like they're part of this community. And they don't know where to begin. And they come in, and they become, you know, a member - - they become members of The Guild. And, you know, we - - we work on things that I think will help them legislatively, you mentioned, is one [1] of them. I've work on Festivals, that's kind of my Committee. So, we worked on a "Craft Brewers Festival", to try to, you know, emulate what is going on in the rest of the country. And we don't have it yet. You know, Portland, or Oregon, being one [1] of the biggest. And, you know, that's not necessarily my "End Game", but I still want to build it, to a point where everybody knows what "The Texas Craft Brewers Festival" is, you know. So, that's - - that's just basically what The Guild is, by my part of The Guild is. Tim is involved in Education for the Brewers, so, we're gonna have symposiums, that we get together, and we discuss issues related, trouble shooting issues, whatever issues, water. The last one [1] was "Sensory Analysis". And, a lot of things that most Brewers wouldn't have access to, if The Guild wasn't there, you know, And so, that's all we're trying to do is, keep the momentum alive. We've got a lot of new Breweries starting up. Get them involved early, and, I think, as a Guild, we represent ourselves to basically get - - get people a more aware of what we do. Get Brewers educated, and get the Public educated is really, our - - our number one [1] thing. And - - and to continue it exists, you know. Part of My Mission is to make sure we continue. The Festival Funds keeps - - keeps everything moving forward. Maybe you want talk about Legislation? I'm not, you know, I've - - I've said a lot. Do you have an opinion on it, or whatever. It's just basically what happened in the last Session, maybe? And where - - where we think we're gonna go? 00:58:19 AMOS LOWE: Well, there are two [2] Bills last Session, HB 660 was the Brew Pub, which applied to us. It wasn't officially called "Brew Pub Bill." But, it would have allowed us to not only sell here, but to distribute, and sell to retailers. So, right now, in Texas, we can only sell, at this address. So, we make it, and sell it here, and that's it. The Bill would have allowed us to a Certain Cap, I don't remember what it was. To sell to, it would allow us? Oh, no, we took "Self Distribution" out. Anyway, the main point was, we would be able to sell our beer to retailers. And then there's another Bill, House Bill 602, I think, that was the Bill that would allow "Packaging Breweries" to do dock sales, of a certain amount. So, really we're just trying to get to the point where we can sell the beer we're making. And, so, the - - the distributors are fighting that a little bit, cause they view it as a, a "Breach of the Three [3] Tier System". And they have sort of a slippery slope argument. So, it will be, you know, the, I guess they will meet, not this year, but next year again. And, we're gonna introduce the Bills again. And, we will what happens, and a lot of people are putting a lot of effort into. So, it would - - it would help us. I think you'd see, it would at least help the Breweries that exist currently to be more successful. I mean, if you have - - if you have more opportunities to sell your product, obviously you've got a better opportunity to succeed. So, I - - I think it will, I don't know, I think it will happen, for Brew Pubs, for sure. I don't know that it will. It may never happen. But, I would expect it to happen, just because it will create revenue. And it will create jobs, and I can't see how they could continue to ignore that. But, you know, it is possible. So, and then the "Dock Sales" for the Brewery is the same. You know, if we sell more product, we've got to make more, and all of a sudden, we need more employees. And, so the State's making more money, and it's just Positive all the way around. So, hopefully, that will happen for us. But, we will have to wait and see. NIKO TONKS: Yeah, I was - - I was thinking, when you were talking about how, you know, there's a - - there's a ceiling to how many faucets there is - - there is the City. If everybody had their own, ten [10] faucets, in their own building, you know, that - - that adds another, whatever it is, a hundred and twenty [120] taps to - - to the town. 01:00:35 [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, it's pretty amazing, when you to "Avery's Tap Room" and it's busy, and people are all sitting out there, having a beer, either inside or out. And it's - - it's in the middle of a Strip Warehouse, man, it's. It's as industrial as you can get, and people are just hanging out, and drinking beer, and having a good time. And it's - - it's pretty cool. AMOS LOWE: Yeah. They drink "New Belgium", all those Breweries have, basically a Brew Pub. I [Inaudible] attached to their Brewery, you know. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, I don't think it's a general, it's not as much of a Revenue thing, probably as it is just a Warehouse and a building. You know, building, and momentum, and building, and building. You are always trying to keep momentum going. Your Brew people who have never been there, and then they're buying it at the store, the rest of the time, for the rest of their life. You know, it's - - it's just trying to get that introduction, and trying to keep people "Part of the Family". You know, I - - I'm just speculating. I don't think it's necessarily a huge Revenue thing. It's - - it's a decent Revenue thing. AMOS LOWE: For a Brew Pub, the Revenue is a great impact. BRIAN PETERS: Yeah, the "Dock Sales" are having a pop. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: Yeah. BRIAN PETERS: At each Brewery. It's definitely worth it. [Laughter] 01:01:41 [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: For a small Brewery, like us, you know, like my friend, Christian, in Portland, did two thousand [2,000] barrels at his Pub, and he sold another four thousand [4,000] barrels at Whole Foods, and other places. So, in that situation, it's a huge Revenue stream. And so, and it allows him to grow, and now he opened another Pub. So, for Breweries our size, you know, the Revenue Impact will be larger. Whereas, as for talking brews that - - that are Regional Breweries, it's not so much the Revenue, as it is the - - the Marketing opportunity, and the - - and the Branding and stuff. That's what's so weird, to me, is that there's al these Production places. And it's national. It's not Texas. It's all over. Brew Pubs are not what, and they are not in Texas, that's for sure. And maybe, to me, the opportunity for Brew Pubs, with the Law changing, the potential for Law to change, I think, is greater personally. Because I think we can include the Wholesalers, and they won't have an argument. And they will be in the loop, and therefore, we're in, and nobody's gonna argue. The potential then to grow from that, to a seven [7,000], six [6,000] seven [7,000] thousand barrel Brew Pub is pretty awesome. And that's a huge amount of money. And, I just find it's interesting, in the Model, that everyone is using right now, for business, to come out. [Talking Over Each Other] BRIAN PETERS: This is the Social Aspect we like. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: So, anyway, I mean, I'm not saying everybody's ideas are crazy. I just think there's too many Production places. And a Brew Pub is limited right now, and I think the Law will change. But, they don't maybe want to wait that long. And maybe they're just going, 01:03:18 "Well, let's just go, and we will become the next Dog Fish Head", you know. "Or, maybe we will to get to ninety thousand [90,000] barrels. Fine. All of that is their deal. And my - - my Goal has always been, you know, "Stay local, stay small, relatively small. And, you can generate a huge amount of Revenue, if you're a Brew Pub that can distribute. And even if you did fifty fifty [50/50], you did four thousand [4,000], two thousand [2,000], on - - on premise, and two thousand [2,000] out the door. And it's just, and it's everybody is getting paid. And it's a good job. AMOS LOWE: You make a living, at that point. [Talking Over Each Other] AMOS LOWE: Doing what you love. BRIAN PETERS: And I love the idea of the "Neighborhood Brewery", man. I just love it, you know. I don't - - I don't have any ambitions, as far as, I want to sell a certain number of barrels. I - - I have an idea of what I want to do to - - to make everybody happy, and we can all have good lives, and make a living, and do what we love, at the same time. Which is "My Dream", right. But, but the idea of the "Neighborhood Brew Pub", I just love. Because I think it's, for me, I guess, it's romantic for me. I don't know. Maybe it's "The Bitter End" is still stuck in my head. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: I don't know, but I just love it, that there would be these little Breweries, you know, like "Dossal Daft" [sp], or something, where there's these little Pubs all over the place. And whatever neighborhood you're in, you go to that Pub. And, I just love it, man. So, [Inaudible] Pub is the way to go. And I think the Law will change. I think it will, and 01:04:34 at that point, if you do like Portland, or, you know, Colorado, or where they're doing, accessing both Revenues Streams, then you can really make a living, you know, as a Brew Pub. Like when you see the Reports of the Year, the Reports of people selling five thousand [5,000], and seven thousand [7,000] barrels at a Pub, they're not. You know, it's a lot of faucet beer. It would be nice if it was. [Laughter] BRIAN PETERS: Because then you could make some serious money. But what they're doing is, they're able to do both. You know, which is really nice, so. I - - I hope it will change for us. AMOS LOWE: It should. BRIAN PETERS: But, that doesn't mean it will. NIKO TONKS: Alright. Well, I think that's everything I wanted to talk about. Is there anything else, you guys have been itching to talk about that we haven't gotten to? Or, are we pretty good here? BRIAN PETERS: I'm good. I'm good. It was fun. It was a good - - good chat, for sure. Because a lot of the stuff, I love talking about the old stuff. So, anytime you want any more. But the line - - the line to get into "Copper Tank", on Wednesday night, because of dollar [$1.00] beers, and stuff like that. There's like a lot of weird - - - [Talking Over Each Other] BRIAN PETERS: There's some weird stuff that happened in the nineties [90's], that "Waterloo" competed with that. And they have dollar beers, and dollar burgers, for a while. 01:05:46 AMOS LOWE: Yeah. BRIAN PETERS: Waterloo had dollar beer, dollar burgers, Wednesday. It - - it drove, there was just. It drove all the regulars away, because Wednesday was like, you do not want to go down there. It was somebody with two dollars [$2.00]. [Laughter] AMOS LOWE: Somebody with two dollars [$2.00]. BRIAN PETERS: And they were definitely not tipping. So, it was - - those are some crazy times. But it was fun. No, I'm good. AMOS LOWE: Me, too, I'm good. NIKO TONKS: Alright, thanks guys. I appreciate it. Yeah. 01:06:15 End of Audio File 01:06:15 End of Recording File