Bill Clayton Interview, Side 1

MP: [This is] Dr. Michael Phillips from the Center for American History. Today is April 8, 2004, and we're at the office of former House Speaker Bill Clayton. We're in Austin. ...

Mr. Clayton, I was hoping in the first part of the interview to just talk a little bit about your background, your childhood in Springlake, and basically, your early years and what. . . got you into politics.

BC: Well, it's kind of difficult to say just what got me into it, but I can probably give you some ideas of why I went that way. Being a child in Springlake, it was all agricultural.

It was a little rural community, and the school was out in the country between Springlake and Earth, Texas, and ... it was a small school... I was a pretty good student, I guess, making fair grades.

I think I was selected the best all-around student by my teachers, either by sophomore or junior year in high school. ... I didn't go my senior year in Springlake, because I'd gone on down to Texas Tech to enroll, to see if I could get in school.

This was back during the war, WW2 . . . And, [I] got down there and found out I didn't have physics or chemistry, and couldn't get in. Otherwise I had plenty of credits .. . [A]nd Springlake didn't offer those.

So ... I had to make a decision to do something else if I wanted to go to college. So I looked around, and, of course, the military was very popular at that stage in life.

It would have been World War II going on.... So I decided to go to Allen Academy in Bryan, Texas, for my senior year, so I could pick up physics and chemistry, and have the proper credits to get into college.

So I went on down to Allen Academy, which, you know, is all military, all male, and was from, I believe, the first grade to . . . high school. It might have [gone] through a couple years in junior college, I'm not sure. It does now ...

So I finished my senior year there and while I was there ... you couldn't help but pay attention to the biggest institution in the Bryan-College Station area, and that was A&M...

And I got to know some Aggies, and I just decided, man, I wasn't even going to go back and make a try at Tech. I wanted to go to A&M. So, that was kind of my growing up around Springlake and deciding when to leave and head for college.

Springlake, as I told you, was an agricultural center, just basically cotton and grain sorghum, and wheat. It was basically all dry land at the time of my childhood. In the early forties it began irrigation from the Ogallala formation... and currently today imports water for irrigation . . .

MP: So, did you have any brothers and sisters?

BC: I had . .. my brother and a sister ... I was the oldest in the family. My brother lives two doors down from me in Springlake today and farms ... My sister lives over to the north ... and her husband farmed, so all stay pretty close in the same vicinity.

MP: Did anyone else in your family end up in politics, or are you a trailblazer in that regard here?

BC: No, I guess I was the only one that made that venture.

MP: How were politicians viewed in your community when you were growing up? Because, today ... I think it's very commonplace for people to not hold politicians [in] really high esteem ... [H]ow did they view politicians then?

BC: Well, it was totally different, I can tell you ... Everybody regarded people in office ... with respect... and ... you know, honored their achievements, and it was just a whole different attitude.

MP: What do you think accounts for that difference ... ?

BC: Well, I think at that time it was probably ... societal problems [weren't] as multiplied and compounded as they are today ... the issues were just simpler and it was easy to convey your positions and discuss with your constituents your desires ... and people knew their elected officials.

MP: ... There was more direct contact.. . ?

BC: More, yeah.

MP: Was there anybody in politics that you would recall as a young person really admiring or looking up to, or someone you said, I'd like to follow in his footsteps?

BC: Well, one of the most honored politicians in our area of the state was our U.S. Congressman, George Mahon ... And, he kind of took me on as a protege ...

I was kind of expected to run for his seat when he retired, but I decided I was going to stay.

MP: ... Now your family the Claytons were farmers, right?

BC: Yes.

MP: And how did that shape your later view, I guess, of. . . life and I guess of your political priorities when you entered politics?

BC: Well, I can't help but believe that the farmers generally were just down to earth, good, common, hard-working people that realized the real moral values of life, and taught those throughout the community in major meeting place[s] and gathering place[s] in the communities or the churches ...

So I think that had a whole lot to do with the kind of shape - what my future might've been, or it might lead.

MP: ... Was your family really deeply involved in a lot of community activities of the church. . .?

BC: Well, the First Baptist Church at Springlake was formed in Mother and Daddy's living room. And my daddy served as a deacon there before he died.

MP: By the way, how would you describe the town . . . when you were growing up there. I mean demographically? What it mostly Baptist? Was it a diverse group . .. ?

BC: Well... Old Spring Lake, from ... [which] new Springlake where I lived [was formed], originally . . . was a southern division of the XIT Ranch. . .

And it had one big grocery store-hotel kind of combination, and denominational church, or non-denominational church. Everybody went to church ...

It wasn't long until the little communities of Earth and Springlake and Springlake used to be Punkin Center . . . But the Old Spring Lake was dwindling away and they moved the post office over to Punkin Center, and it's what is now Springlake.

And ... I think in Springlake, there were three [churches] now, you have to remember this is a community of about 200 people. There was the First Baptist Church that was established, like I said, in my father and mother's home they built the building there.

There was a Church of Christ, and there was the Primitive Baptist Church. So there were three churches there in that little community.

MP: And was this a white community? ... [W]as there a diversity of whites, blacks, et cetera?

BC: We did not have diversity in our country out there until in later years . . . They may've been one or two African-American families . . . not more than that, when I was growing up.

I hardly ever saw a black child. Hispanic, I guess, had [begun] to come up in Mexico in the form of wetbacks ... to labor on the farms but most of the time they didn't bring their children with them ... So it was pretty well an Anglo setting.

MP: A lot of people say that there's sort of a cultural divide between East and West Texas and that East Texas is more racially diverse, and so the racial issues are more ... at the forefront. Do you think that's correct?

BC: I think that's correct. I think it's always been that way. I think there's been more African Americans in East Texas because, basically, you know, you're getting around some of the areas where there were big cotton plantations, and they've used the African-American as workers on their plantations.

MP: ... So, when you were growing up in this era, I mean, this was an era of segregation. It wouldn't've been necessarily relevant to your life . . . just on a day-to-day thing.

BC: No. No, we never really had much thought about it, frankly.

MP: ... So, when do you recall that becoming an issue you thought of. .. were you a young man when you . . . became aware of that issue?

BC: I think I was already out of college . . . Seemed to me like in - gosh, I don't know when, but, you know, when the Springlake School District integrated.

I'm not sure what era that was, but, there [were] very few African-American students. The way they integrated was quite different than a lot of the schools I have seen.

It was out, like I said, in the rural... country, and they have a little one-room building across the street from the rest of the school, and that's where the African-Americans went... And they had two or three grades that were together ... So they - they were integrated but segregated.

MP: ... [S]egregated in the early grades and then integrated as they got older?

BC: Yeah ... and not many of them at that time . .. got to go to upper grades.

MP: ... So ... let me ask you about your family again. . . . [Y]ou said they were involved in the formation of the Baptist Church. Were they deeply involved in local politics .. . ?

BC: Well, actually, there wasn't a whole lot of local politics ... I think Dad served on the School Board and ... things like that... But as far as county or state offices, no.

MP: . . . How were they viewed in the community, the Claytons?

BC: I think they were probably really a very substantial, upright family. They've done quite a bit of. . . family history written and they're very prominently noted . . . I'm really proud of my mother and father.

MP: . . . [Y]our childhood home. How would you describe that? What were your surroundings like when you were growing up in Springlake?

BC: Well, you have to remember, that was in the country .. . and we had no running water, no electricity, or no telephones. I mean, it was rural. ..

And, it was . . . [the] REA [that] finally came in and put up electricity ... but that was not till the late forties, I guess.

MP: So, when you were going to College Station that must've been a very new experience for you.

BC: Yeah, it was ... it was a sudden shock.

MP: So what'd you think about it, going to College Station? I mean ... coming from rural Texas. That had to be ... a very different life for you . . .?

BC: Well, in a sense, but in - you'll have to remember back then . .. See, I entered A&M in '45 .... And you'll have to remember, back then, most of the kids attend A&M were from the country .. .

And so, it was just a good camaraderie of. . . you know what. . . you found the people of your own stature pretty quick.

MP: . . . Now, how did you meet your wife . . .?

BC: Well, I was in A&M, my senior year ... And, one evening in The Battalion, the Aggie daily paper, there was an article about the formation of an Aggie F. Club in Temple, Texas . ..

And, the whole emphasis was on Aggies [who] wanted to come to Temple, and have a blind date. Call this club and they'd fix you up ... Well, when I came out that evening, me and a couple of my buddies got in the car and went to Temple . . .

And, sure enough, they fixed us up with dates. And then about a week or two later, we decided to go again, and they fixed us up with dates.

And as we were going over there, there was a guy by the name of Buddy Smith, going with me, and we'd gotten a description of the girls ... One of them was a tall girl and one of them was a short girl, and he had the date with the short one and I had the date with the tall one.

Before we got to College Station we decided - I mean to Temple - we decided to change ... because they didn't know us and we didn't know them. And the short girl wound up to be my wife.

MP: . .. How did she strike you on that first date ...?

BC: Well... I really liked her. One reason I liked her, I guess, is because she had a simple upbringing ...

I could just tell that she was a girl... who would be pretty ... and reasonably very pleasant. I liked her.

MP: ... [H}ow many children do you have now?

BC: We have two.

MP: And their names are . . .?

BC: Brenda . . . and Tommy.

MP: And ... what career paths have they chosen . . .?

BC: Well, Brenda is in Littlefield, Texas .. . She went to beauty college, and had her own beauty salon for a number of years. Finally got tired of that and sold it, and now works at the Bill Clayton Detention Center in Littlefield, Texas, as a receptionist.

MP: So she works at an institution named after her father.

BC: Yeah.

MP: And then, your son . . .?

BC: My son has always lived for me and . .. we've been partners and he now he manages a lot of stuff for me ... Soon as we're finished here I'm leaving to go to the lake, and he and I are going to fish over the weekend.

MP: ... [W]hat are your chief memories of your time at A&M, and I'm also curious if you got involved in student politics there.

BC: Well, I don't think ... in those days, anybody ever forgot their freshman year, because hazing was pretty rampant. . . And, in fact... in 1946 was when they had the student march on the then-president of the University, Gibb Gilchrist.

And it was because they started - or were trying to stop hazing ... So the upper classmen organized all of us and we marched and hung him in effigy.

You never hear much of protest at A&M, but that was one ... Because you don't forget... your freshman year because that gives you a basis ... you really learn the discipline of how to present yourself to people and how to accept them.

You felt humbled. You walked in the street, the upper classmen walked on the sidewalk. You rushed up to meeting everybody that you didn't know and you were expected to remember them.

And at that time of course they then didn't have but about 6,000 students ... it was the great camaraderie, but your freshman year really gave you that grounding.

MP: Must've been a little tough, too, with the hazing .. . Anything you particularly remember .. . anything happen to [you]... anything they did to you?

BC: I remember having to go to the shower and soap my shorts off a bit.

MP: Oh, really? What did they do to you?

BC: Well, they just bust you so much it'll make you bleed. But, you know, I wouldn't take anything for it... It was a experience I probably wouldn't want anybody else to go through but I wouldn't take for mine.

MP: .. .[W]hat subjects were you most drawn to while you were at A&M then?

BC: I thought I wanted to be an electrical engineer . . . But by the time I got through with my first semester ... I decided I better go back to my roots . .. And so I changed it back to agriculture and economics.

MP: . . . Now did you run for any student government positions, or were you involved in anything heavily?

BC: I was ... I... think I was president of it. We didn't have a lot of student activities ... I helped on the bonfires... just the normal things of students everywhere.

MP: ... Now, when you graduated, what were you hoping to do? What was your plan at that point?

BC: I really had thought in my mind I wanted to teach .. . But, sad circumstances happened about that time. My father had a heart attack.

In fact, it was about two weeks before graduation, and I had to leave and go out and be with him. I didn't get to walk across the stage and get my diploma. They sent it to me . . .

I'd always believed in work. . . And, of course back them days they didn't know how to treat heart attacks like they do now ... And bypasses - well, nobody [was] even thinking about bypasses ...

And, my father was very serious. So I stayed and kind of helped looked after the farm then and farmed part of his land, then for the next few years.

MP: ... And, what was that like? ... [F]or a young person who just got a college degree to suddenly manage the family business .. . ?

BC: It was emotionally tough but, you know, having been around a farm all my life, I was in a good place to do what needed to be done, and how to do it.

MP: And how long did your father live after that?

BC: He lived ten years after that.

MP: And, so you were heavily involved with the management of the farm for quite some time then ...?

BC: Yeah.

MP: ... [W]hat did you see as ... the problems and the issues facing farmers at that point. . .?

BC: Well, again, like I said before, we were awful[ly] rural. .. But by that time, electricity had gotten to most of the community area, and most of them had, you know, indoor plumbing at that time ... Used to we didn't.

And the only thing that was lacking [that] was rural was telephones . . . And ... we did not have a Chamber of Commerce or anything like that, and so mainly, we had a Lions Club. Our Lions Club kind of acted as the fathers of the town to try to promote things and get things done ...

When I was president of the Lions Club, about three or four years after I left there - I had graduated from A&M - we started trying to pursue getting the rural telephones . .. and . . . [we were] a success at it when ... we got General Telephone and Bailey County Electric was also putting in a cooperative telephone system.

And we kind of got them getting together and finally wound up with a pretty good system. At that time, we had a few four-party lines and quite a bit of two-party lines, and it was not until mid sixties I guess until we got single party.

MP: . . . Now, were there any issues in dealing with the state government or with the federal government farm policy that you became aware of that concerned you?

BC: Yes ... During that time, I went to Washington several times and toured the state several times, on some farm issues.

And ... they were basically concerned with water conservation and water development, and unfair gas prices, you know, for our electric [and] ... for our gas engines for irrigation.

MP: .... Now ... I guess your first plunge into big-time politics you got to be a delegate in the ... 1960 ... Democratic presidential nomination, and you were a delegate for Lyndon Johnson, correct... ?

BC: Well, and that's kind of funny how that happened ... In Lamb County, we had a county chairman who would not commit. And so, a group of us decided to organize the county and take it over .. .

And so, we had all the precinct conventions pretty well set, and we took the county over and they elected me chairman ... And I went on to be a delegate.

MP: What did you think of Lyndon Johnson at the time, what drew you to him as a candidate?

BC: Well... you know, I always liked Lyndon Johnson. He disappointed me some as president...

But, you know, our alternative then was John Kennedy, and I just assumed that he was too liberal. Come to find out, well, Johnson was more liberal than Kennedy really in actions.

MP: ... [W]hat were you most concerned about with Kennedy? What were you most alarmed ... ?

BC: Well, I think you've kind of gone over my background. And, being brought up in a very religious community and particularly Protestant, the big concern was basically, Kennedy and the Catholics ... And, before my father died, he said, "We'll never elect a Catholic." ...

And of course when I went out to the convention, and met Kennedy, and when he won the nomination, I got to escort him around to the Texas delegations, and begin to know him a little more, I kind of liked him. I came home and campaigned for him, after the convention.

MP: ... But that was a big thing in the state, too. I remember W.A. Chriswell in Dallas was really sounding the alarm about that. So did you find that, in Texas, there was a lot of that concern . . . ?

BC: Oh, yeah, it was. No question about it.

MP: And Hubert Humphrey of course made an issue of it, too, during the campaign.

BC: Yeah.

MP: So Kennedy won you over. You mentioned that you met him. What was that meeting like, and what were the circumstances?

BC: Well, I had a couple of meetings with him at the convention. I went over to one of his caucus meetings . . . and met him, and then, when he was to be presented to the Texas delegations to make a pitch, I got to be the one to go escort them over . . .

And ... I really liked him. I never did like Bobby or Teddy . .. But I did like John.

MP: ... [Y]ou said you liked him. Anything particular drew you to him . . . ?

BC: Well, he was really easy to get acquainted with, he was very easy to talk to ... And he was - seemed to me, like, more willing to want to talk .. . [to] visit on issues than either Bobby or Teddy.

MP: ... I got the impression when I read some biographies of Lyndon Johnson that sometimes Bobby had problems with Lyndon partly ... because he was from Texas...

BC: Yeah.

MP: Is that the impression you got... ?

BC: At the convention ... we, the Texas delegation, was divided . . . We had the Lyndon Johnson delegates and then we had the Ralph Yarborough delegates ...

And, the liberals didn't want to go along with Johnson . . . And they were kind of preferred at the convention in the seating, and amenities, such as hotels and things like that.

We were staying . . . and they put our group and the press in the old Clark Hotel, which is a run-down, ratty place . .. And I never will forget the evening before the nomination, Johnson came here .. . before us and said, "You know," said, "We never will take a second position, and we're going to take it all or nothing."

Well, sure enough it was nothing. And then he came back, and, you know, said the same thing to us again with big ol' crocodile tears in his eyes and - you know, everything - second place.

And that night Sam Rayburn got ahold of him and got ahold of the Kennedys, and the deal was cut, and it was cut and dried. He was going to [get] the vice presidential nomination. And I don't think Kennedy would have done gotten elected if it hadn't have been for Rayburn.

MP: What was your reaction as a Johnson delegate after being told twice that...

BC: I was disappointed. I really was. But then, you know, after we'd settled down and thought about it, what the heck?

MP: . .. I'm interested because ... this is a given because Texas politics has always been contentious . . . But that was a particularly contentious time with the Texas Democrats and the national party because you had . .. Allan Shivers, who had very publicly campaigned for Eisenhower twice ...

the faction was called the Shivercrats so basically it... functioned as the separate body within [the Democratic Party]. There had been, dating back to the forties, some Democrats who, you know, supported the ticket in Texas and then . . .

BC: Well, Frankie Randolph ... was the kind of leader of the liberals . . . And, it was a split Democratic Party.

MP: Where did you feel you fit in, or did you fit in a third faction ... ?

BC: I filled in basically for the conservative Democrats . . . When I ran I ran as a conservative.

MP: .. . . And what were the chief issues that aligned you with the conservative Democrats ...?

BC: Well, I've always favored fiscal responsibility . . . And at the time I ran, just the third called session prior to the time that I ran that fall, the state Legislature passed a sales tax . . .

And I had black cards printed up with silver print on them, that said, "I do not believe that the state should go into the black." . . . And, you know it kind of caught on out there .. . because . . . I wasn't supposed to win.

MP: . . . Well, was that the issue that got you into politics initially or . . .

BC: It was one of them.

MP: . .. What were some of the other issues?

BC: Well, actually, though, when I was . .. going to run for county judge, because after having [taken over] over the convention at the county level and being a delegate, it kind of got in the blood . ..

And so I decided, you know, I can run for county judge. I can be the county judge and still maintain farming operations . . . So I went over to announce to the news office in Littlefield, Texas, which was the county seat, to announce for county judge.

And the news editor was a friend of mine, and he said, "Well, have you seen this?" And he handed me a news release from Jesse Osborn, who was serving as our representative at that time in the state Legislature.

And I said, "No." I said . .. and I picked up the phone and called Jess and they were in a called session then. And I said, "Jesse, you can't quit us." I said, "We need you."

He said, "No." He said, "I promised my wife after the last election, which was a very hard one, that I wasn't going to run again." He said, "Why don't you ... how did you know that?"

I said, "Well, I'm at the news office fixing to announce for county judge." He said, "Don't do it!" I said, "Well, Jess, I kind of think that's what I want to do."

He said, "Well, let me ... just promise me one thing. You'll talk to five people ... and I'll give you the names of them . . . before you make your mind up." ...

I said, "Well, sure, I'll do that." Well, there's five counties in the district at that time. And I didn't know I was getting set up ... He gave me the key name of everyone in each of the counties, the five leaders . . .

And, then he called before I got the chance to see them ... But after I come away talking from five leaders ... I had really been set up and I didn't know it but I just... you know, what the heck? I can't lose. So I decided to run for the Legislature.

MP: . . . [W]hat did you hope to accomplish as you got to the state Legislature, and what do you remember most about being a freshman, because that has to be pretty daunting. And you're - how old are you at this point.... how old were you when you were a freshman?

BC: I was thirty - thirty-something, I guess. Thirty-one or thirty-something I guess.

MP: So you're a young man, and you're entering the state Legislature, and this is your first public office. What do you most remember about that experience, and how did you learn the ropes?

BC: Well, ironically, back in those days campaigns didn't cost so much. If people ran campaigns like that - I don't believe I recall a negative campaign.

You were always talking about what he could do or wanted to do for the people . . . The issues. And, I never came to Austin, nor did many others when they were running for the Legislature, for fundraising ...

Because they raised all the money in the district... And ... my first race I had two opponents in the primary, I had a runoff, and a general election opponent, and all those races together only cost me $6,000 . . .

And you know, we have what we call pie suppers and maybe a auxiliary clubó auxiliary meetings, coffees. Then you went to all these places and made your little spiel, and it was ... a contact thing . . .

[S]o when I got to Austin, I found there was a lot of people just like me in freshman class because that freshman class had 76 members.

MP: What year is that again?

BC: That was 1963.

MP: .. .[W]hat had caused that turnover? Do you recall?

BC: Passage of the sales tax.

MP: Was very unpopular, I take it.

BC: Was very unpopular, and that just.. . happened in '62, the third called session.

MP: Now, I want to talk about this later, but that is an ongoing issue ... the state of Texas has to draw its budget two years in advance. There's not a income tax . . . but the state is growing,...

so just philosophically how do you feel the state should deal with the fact that it's more populous, it's more complex, it's a more diverse economy now? How fiscally should the state deal with that?

BC: Well, I've always felt that a value-added tax or a flat tax of some kind would be really a more fair tax than what we have today.

A sales tax is a fair tax, but you don't tax everything. And some escape. Well, I think the tax burden ought to be spread evenly.

MP: Well, back then . . . what were the specifics of the sales tax that had passed that bothered you ... ?

BC: It really didn't bother me ... But it did the people ... [It] was something the people were not accustomed to ... And that's what caused the turnover in the Legislature . . . But I mean, you know, I hadn't had any experience in it, and so I didn't really have an opinion.

MP: ... [S]o you're a part of a very large freshman class ... [S]o who's there to . . . teach you how the legislative process worked, or did you just observe, or how did you learn?

BC: Well, I went and got myself in trouble right away. Before we came to Austin to be sworn in, I wrote a letter to all the freshman members.

I said, "Look, there's 76 of us. Why don't we get together? And we can just about name what we want to do." Well, of course those kind of letters get out pretty quick . . . And the leadership got ahold of that, and I found out that I wasn't supposed to be doing things like that.

MP: Who was the leadership at that time?

BC: Byron Tunnell.

MP: .... So ... you got in, right away the Speaker was unhappy with you.

BC: Very unhappy, and I was also supporting Alonzo Jamison for Speaker against him . . . [B]ut, after I began to study the two, find out where they were . . .

and Bill Heatly, who was chairman of the Appropriations Committee at that time, came out to see me on behalf of Byron Tunnell... And, I guess what impressed me more was Alonzo Jamison, who was running, came to see me personally . ..

But, Heatly convinced me that if I was a conservative, I wouldn't vote for Alonzo Jamison .. . And so I didn't make my mind up and didn't tell him one way or the other till I got out.

MP: . .. And who did you ultimately support?

BC: And I ultimately supported Byron Tunnell.

MP: . . . And what were the stands that Mr. Tunnell took that you particularly wanted to back him on?

BC: Well, Tunnell was very conservative. And, I got good committee assignments out of him ... I got to know corporations which is kind of unusual for a person ...

And I sat right next to Bob Johnson, who advised me and always handed me questions to ask ...

[B]ut I was a West Texas conservative and we knew where he stood on all the issues.

And then, you know, unless you had some real objection to him ... be with him or his program. But if your district disagreed . . . you know, he knew you had to vote your district.

MP: Well. .. what did you learn from him, I guess, since he's the first speaker you worked under, and . . . later you would serve in that office.

Was there anything in particular you learned from Tunnell, or were there other speakers who were particularly influential on you . . .

BC: Well, Joan Hollowell was his secretary . . . And she tells the story and I vaguely remember. I walked in there when I first came to Austin, looked around the office, said, "Some day this office'll be mine."

Now, you know, that's kind of a crazy thing to do . . .. But, she tells that story and I liked Byron very much. I've become a member of the team, helping every way I could to make things move along.

And Randy Pendleton, Jack Crain, and myself... it was a little team, and that not only helped Byron Tunnell but we also promoted Ben Barnes .. . when Tunnell went to the Railroad Commission.

MP: ... [W]as there a particular mentor you had in the House that first term . ..?

BC: Well, there were several. But I'd say probably Byron was one of the most notable. Bob Johnson, of course ... A lot of people that had an influence on me.

MP: Was it really possible for ... a citizen politician in that era to get involved in the process and not be just lost in parliamentary procedure ... ?

BC: Well, I think so .... I think there was.

MP: Is it different now, do you think?

BC: Well, ... the whole attitude of the legislators, it seems to me, has changed. And I regret the way the change has occurred and maybe just my thinking, I don't know.

But it seems to me like - and I always believed this - that as a member of the Legislature, my office was open to anyone who had a problem and wanted to come see me, you know, and that office belonged to them .. .

And I perceive that sometimes today we get people in office who feel like they own that office, and they'll see who they want to . . .

Now, under those circumstances ... as costly as these races are today, you've got somebody who contributed $50,000 to your campaign, and somebody that contributed a hundred dollars, who do you think they're going see first? ... And I think that's what's the matter with our system.

MP: Well, I was going to ask you about this because this business does lobby with the state government, right. . .?

BC: Yes.

MP: So you've been on both sides of that relationship . . . ?

BC: Right. MP: ... so that gives you a unique perspective. What was the influence of lobbyists on the state Legislature in those early years of your career, and how do you think that affects the process?

Do you think it's a positive thing ... it's a way for citizens to organize and get their agenda pushed or is it a negative thing?

BC: It's very positive, and I say it for this reason. As many issues - when you come before the Legislature . . . Back then we didn't have staff.

And the only way you could get the information was from lobbyists, because usually you had proponents and opponents, and each one of them would give you information, and you could glean from that, and learn more about the issue.

And, if the lobby ever ... lied to you . . . you would never trust them again ... So ... it was a source and a check and balance.

MP: It was a check because they had to be up front with you ...?

BC: Absolutely.

MP: Do you feel they curtailed the information or they shaped the information in order to push their agenda?

BC: . .. I'm sure anybody that'd tell the best story, with your best foot forward. But it's just the fact when you give erroneous information, that you're putting yourself in jeopardy.

MP: ... Now . . . you mentioned .... that... if someone's in the Legislature and someone's given a hundred bucks .... and someone's given five thousand, that the guy with $5,000 is going to get more . . . [W]hy is that more of a factor now than then? Is it because the races are costly?

BC: Well, because you never heard of people giving money like that before the races . . . And you have to - the races are costing so much more now ... I hate to think of it but it probably takes big contributions to get a war chest enough to run.

And see, I think public office ought to be sought on a level playing field . .. where an incumbent doesn't have all the advantage, where anybody who wants to seek office will have an equal opportunity to do so ... I think the money situation is changing.

MP: How would you change that if you were given power today?

BC: Well, I've looked at it in several different ways and I've got about an eight or ten-point program. It'd be too big to go into today.

But, there needs to be several ideas tossed out there. I think there needs to be some type of public campaign finance.

And I don't know whether it's in the form of .. . giving a certain air space, or what it might be. But then I also think that there ought to be caps on contributions.

And I frankly think that if you're going to have contributions . . . I'd like to see them do away with PACs . . . And if labor unions or corporations want to give, fine. Just make it, by golly, where everybody knows what's happening ... Just go for a record.

MP: So both the stockholders would be able to check off or union members would be able to check off if they didn't want to . . .

BC: Absolutely.

MP: ... [B]ecause a lot of times people say, "Well, unions should have to do that," but they don't mention corporations. You feel both should be subject.. .?

BC: Oh, I think they both ought to be subject.

MP: .. .[D]id you feel any pressure from any source .. . did want people to have a reason for lining up one way or the other and ... some times I guess you felt pressure as a freshman from the House leadership then to vote a certain way .. .?

BC: Well... as far as I'm concerned, we did not. . . because I think my district was conservative enough ...