Bill Clayton Interview, Side 2
- MP: [We're with] former House Speaker, William Clayton, and ... we were talking about. .. whether you as a freshman legislator in the early '60s felt any pressure from lobbyists or any other groups ... [W]as there a particular group lobbying the House at that time that was powerful?
- BC: Well, there were probably four major lobbyists . . . considered to be four, and it was ... at that time, the Texas Manufacturers Association ...
- [T]he oil and gas lobbyists . . . Chemical Council was one of them, and I don't remember now what the other one was.
- MP: Insurance companies? Were they a big lobby then?
- BC: You know, I don't remember now . . . not as much as so today . . . But anyway, those four . . . probably come before you asking your support on various issues more than anybody else . . . But... basically I've pretty well supported most of the issues they wanted.
- MP: . .. [B]ecause of the way your district lined up politically, it made it easier for you to deal...
- BC: Made it ... much easier for me.
- MP: ... Philosophically did you see your job as a representative to reflect the needs and desires of your constituents, or did you see yourself as someone standing in their stead and that if... after researching a bill, if an idea wasn't popular in your district you still felt the need to vote ... or support that idea . . . ?
- BC: If you're asking me if I believe in voting by poll... I do not.
- MP: Well... do you recall any particular moments where you had to take an unpopular stand with your constituents?
- BC: Yes.
- MP: What were some of those issues ... ?
- BC: Probably the first one was daylight savings time ... I was an opponent and carried the legislation for daylight savings time but my farmers didn't like it.
- MP: Why, what was the basis of their complaint on that?
- BC: You can't imagine all the complaints. It was everything we could think of. . . "My cows don't want to get up that early so I can milk them."
- Or . . . just all kinds of silly things ... I think it was just the idea of having to change time, two times a year ... And my reason for supporting it was that Texas was becoming a economic force in the nation . . . and I felt like we ought to be in step with everybody else.
- MP: ... I think only Arizona doesn't have . . . daylight savings time. So after it was over, was . . . there any pressure because of that? Did people get used to it pretty quickly ... ?
- BC: Oh, yeah, but I still hear about it. (Laughs)
- MP: ... [N]ow you were talking about lobbyists and you were talking about [how] . . . campaigns are different now ... Were those concerns about the influence of lobbyists as you served in the state Legislature . . .
- Is that what led to your creating of the State Ethics Advisory Committee, and do you feel that move was particularly effective? Do you think that that committee has served well?
- BC: Well, we had really no place to judge our own actions, as legislators. And, I just felt like that we ought to adhere to ethical standards, and consequently the creation of that committee, which is now the Ethics Commission . . .
- And, I regret that we don't even have more strength in the Ethics Commission and what it does now.
- MP: What powers would you like them to have?
- BC: I would like to have them investigators, investigating powers, subpoena powers, and things like that. . . and they did get some additional powers this last session . . . But up until then it was just kind of... "Maybe you shouldn't have done that."
- MP: . .. Now . .. [y]ou made water and conservation issues a major issue .. .
- BC: Yeah, I prided myself in that, and in fact, until I became Speaker, my previous years in the Legislature had been devoted basically to conservation and water measures and I was generally the House sponsor of just about all the water legislation in the House.
- MP: What was the program you felt at that time the state needed .. . to ...
- BC: We were working with the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation, and looking at additional water resources related to Texas, knowing that in the future we were going to be short...
- And the Corps and the Bureau had worked up some plans to bring in water from the ... very pronounced part of the Mississippi.. . Anyway, bringing that water over and distributing it in Texas . . .
- And the system would've worked, and we had to - you know, the bond to do it. It was a five-billion-dollar bond. Back in the early '60's nobody had heard of anything that big . . .
- And, it passed statewide except Houston . .. And so it was defeated by about a thousand or so, three or four thousand votes, statewide. Had that plan went into effect, our cities in Texas wouldn't be in the dire straits they are for water.
- MP: . . . [D]o you feel like we've made any positive steps toward supplying the water needs in the urban areas, or do you feel like they're still...
- BC: We have but there's an enormous short supply ... At one time you could build a reservoir for municipal water ... in maybe ten years, 17 million. Today it would take from conception to completion of a reservoir for a municipal water supply, probably in the neighborhood of 25 to 30 years.
- MP: Is that because of environmental regulations?
- BC: Yeah.
- MP: How should the state and the federal government balance the issue of ecological health of the area versus water?
- BC: In my opinion human life is much better than the life of... or habitat of. . . [an] endangered species. And, I've always seen that where you build reservoirs or where you put in canals and things, that habitat really don't go away.
- It's arguable that you can cover up land and that's what happens but - you look around our reservoirs today and you find more wildlife and game and fowl and various other kinds of species than you do anywhere else.
- MP: What do you think sparks that concern that has led to that type of environmental opposition to the water project you favor?
- BC: Anti-growth.
- MP: . . . And, they're anti-growth for what reason, would you say .. . ?
- BC: You know . . . I'm an environmentalist. I believe in protecting and conserving every way in the world that you can. But... I know I like to take a practical approach to it, saying that human life is a little bit better than some of the other species in life.
- And I think that a lot of that has occurred basically for people who want to go back in the past where ... when you walked down the city you were in the forest or in range land or something.
- MP: Do you think that urban sprawl has become a problem now to any degree . . . ?
- BC: Oh, sure.
- MP: . . . And ... if you were a king for a day what would you . . . ?
- BC: Well I absolutely would disperse some of the urban growth ... There's no question about it. I think some of these outlying areas, fifty-sixty miles away from some of the urban cities could well handle some of the development and economic industry that comes into the urban area.
- Then we could get jobs out there. There wouldn't be the environmental impact, out there, and I just think it could be done .... [A]nd the taxes would be cheaper for the industry ... I don't know why they haven't looked that way, I just flat can't understand it.
- MP: ... I guess you encounter that daily in Austin, the issue . . .?
- BC: Oh, absolutely.
- MP: ... I want to ask you one more question about this water issue. In California, for instance, there's always a big conflict between the farmers who have water needs, and then ... the urban areas, like Los Angeles, major metropolises like that.
- How do you think Texas should handle that conflict, because you alluded already to the fact that cities seem to have pretty dire water needs right now . ..
- BC: Well, first let me say I believe in land rights, and I believe in the rule of capture. But they have to be dealt with in modification in some instances, like when we passed the Edwards Aquifer legislation . . .
- That is a unique aquifer, in that it recharges so fast, when the rain falls ... Unlike the aquifer that I'm over in West Texas, the Ogalala, where you only get about a half a inch of recharge a year . . .
- And, so you have to treat it differently. You have to look at it differently, you have to plan conservation programs .. . but... if the rural areas and the cities can't live in harmony, who's going to pay them?
- MP: ... [W]hen you - you supported the Texas Water Plan in 1969 ... in fact, some environmental groups did criticize the bill. What do you recall about your dealings with those environmental groups, and how did you respond to their criticism...?
- BC: . .. [Y]ou know, really and truly, they weren't that big a concern around most of the state.
- Just in some of the more urban populations and spots, like Houston .. . because really environmentalists hadn't really come to the forefront... until then.
- MP: ... So, that wasn't a big issue for you, dealing with it?
- BC: No.
- MP: ... Now, in the early '70's, in '74 in fact, Lloyd Bentsen was beginning to talk about running for President, and in fact he did in '76, and you were very involved as a member of the Legislature in writing bills that many saw as being particularly advantageous to Lloyd Bentsen . . .
- Could you describe how you got involved with the Lloyd Bentsen presidential effort?
- BC: Well, I knew Lloyd as senator. And I thought he was a very, very fine senator ... And I wanted him to have an opportunity - some of the other states have laws like that...
- So why penalize Texas? Now maybe if we had a home state guy that everybody wanted to see and support him. And so I felt like that he ought to be able to run for the Senate.
- My primary goal was him being able to run for the Senate and run for the President at the same time.
- MP: . . . [Under t]he bill... the primary winner would've gotten 75% of the delegates?
- BC: Yeah, of the delegates.
- MP: Yeah, so basically it would set up a favorite son . . .?
- BC: Right.
- MP: Why do you think there was so much controversy over that bill and .. . how do you feel about that?
- BC: This again I think was the old split between the liberal and conservative Democrats.
- MP: . .. And, who do you recall as being particularly sharp opponents of that. . . ?
- BC: Well, I think Ralph Yarborough was probably one of the major opponents.
- MP: ... What did you think of Ralph Yarborough ...?
- BC: As an individual I liked him. As a philosopher, I thought he was way too far left.
- MP: Any particular issues that you disagree with him ... ?
- BC: Most of them. (Laughter)
- MP: Any two or three in particular ...?
- BC: ... I really can't remember right now.
- MP: .... Lloyd Bentsen obviously didn't have .... success but what did you particularly admire about Lloyd Bentsen ... ?
- BC: Well, I... looked at his Senate voting record, and I thought he voted down the line for Texas issues. And, to me he was just a good candidate ...
- MP: What did you think about Jimmy Carter when he won the election in '76 and what did you think of Carter as a president...
- BC: You know, I admired him in his race, and supported him. But, I think he made a poor president.
- MP: .. .[W]hat do you think his chief weaknesses were?
- BC: I think it was a lot of people he had surrounding him.
- MP: He was poorly staffed, in other words, his administration?
- BC: Yeah.
- MP: .. .[Y]ou've described yourself already in the interview and you've been described throughout your career as a conservative, and I was going to ask you about one thing. Some conservatives say that, well, politics should not be a longtime career, that
- ... basically people should serve three our four terms and then get out. You were in politics longer than that...
- BC: I probably could've [run] in the district that I was from from, you know, now on and they would've elected me ... My theory is if you're doing good for the people and the people like you, it should be their choice, not yours ...
- And, I think I could have stayed in the Legislature and ran for speaker, several other terms, because the membership liked me ...
- And I made a lot of changes when I've come into speaker, because that was not official to the matter . .. And, as long as you don't get the idea that it's yours, and nobody else can replace you . .. then I think it's all right to serve. If you get those kind of ideas, you need to move on.
- MP: Well, how did you stay in touch with your constituents? And do you think it's easier...
- BC: Well, when I was ... Speaker of the House it was more difficult. . . because I... needed to be here doing work ... And so, I bought a van . . .
- and hired a staff person who finally would eventually become Congressman to run that van throughout the county, and they had a regular schedule for. . .
- MP: And who was that?
- BC: Bill Sarpalius . . . We built a courthouse in the town squares .. . where people could come, and if they had questions or . . . something they needed ... we could take care of it. . . And they began to like that.
- MP: ... So that was your primary way of having direct contact with them?
- BC: Um-hmm.
- MP: And ... was there a difference in how your constituents related to you between when you were just a House member to when you became the House Speaker? Did they relate to you in a different way or did they communicate with you in a different way?
- BC: I don't think that they did ... I didn't perceive it. I think they realized that they were fortunate to have somebody in a higher office ... But I don't think that we communicated any different.
- MP: ... [W]as there a change in the nature of the Speaker's office between when you were serving under Byron Tunnell and you saw him holding office ... to when you became speaker? Had ... the office evolved in any way?
- BC: Oh, yes.
- MP: How would you describe that, what would you see as some of the big differences?
- BC: Well - and this was up through the Price Daniel era, and the fact [that] when I became speaker we changed the rules.
- But prior to that time, all the employees of the House - the chief clerks or the intern, Sergeant at Arms and all of them - were elected by the membership ...
- Well, that [became] an obvious problem to me, because ... they'd get around and talk to these guys and get them to vote for them because they didn't know anybody else or anybody else who wanted to run.
- And then when the Legislature left town, they pretty well run their own shop, they didn't answer to anybody ... So we changed the rules, and all of that [came] under the Speaker's office and the House Administration Committee ...
- And so we had the ability to hire or fire, and choose whoever we wanted to serve in that position. . . Well, that changed the whole attitude of what went on over there.
- For example . . . in previous years the guy that had done the janitorial service for the House . . . for a little over $400,000 a year . . . We decided to go out for bids, because I could find a replacement.
- We got a bid for less than $100,000 to do what he done for over $400,000. I could make those decisions administratively. And so consequently the Speaker's office became much more powerful.. .
- We also instituted the interim committees, standing committees, and we instituted charges to the committee to study issues that might be forthcoming, in the next session.
- We also began to establish more offices and more staff for members . . . So, we done a lot of things to change the whole complex or complexion of the Legislature.
- MP: Do you see it as a move towards greater professionalism or modern - make it more modern or efficient?
- BC: I see it... happening in two ways. It may be that some of the members now rely more on staff than they should . . . and let staff speak for them more than they should.
- Then on the other hand, there are those members who . .. direct that staff, and they know what the staff knows, who they're working for . . . And they assign them to research, and they'll have a good job ... So it works both ways.
- MP: ... [D]o you think that also is a factor that made .... people wanting to do business with the state more interested in the Speaker's office, and therefore they lobbied it more heavily . . . ?
- BC: Than in the olden days, yes ... Most of the lobbyists and some of the major lobbyists in the olden days? They wanted an issue, they went to the Speaker's office. The Speaker took care of it, and passed the word down to management.
- When I became Speaker my door was open to everybody. But I never made any of the decisions. I let my membership make the decisions, so they consequently began to have to lobby everybody .. . which made lobbying a heck of a big job.
- MP: . . . [A]nd made it more expensive, I guess, too.
- BC: Oh, yeah.
- MP: So then .. . lobbyists had to become more interested in all... the state rep races.
- BC: Absolutely.
- MP: . . . [D]o you feel the lobby has a heavy role in choosing who becomes speaker? Do you think that they influence that process in any way?
- BC: I hope not because that's supposed to be a very internal election. But I really am concerned that it may have [begun] to slip a little into there. I hope not but...
- MP: Well, what prompted your decision to run for Speaker? You had mentioned that story where you saw Mr. Tunnell's office and you said, "One day I'm going to have it." But. . . was there anything that really intrigued you about that position?
- BC: Well.. .I'd served . . . twelve years in the Legislature and I decided, you know, it's time for me to move up or move on ...
- And, so .. . Price Daniel had made the commitment he was only going to serve one term and quit... So it'd give us an opportunity to go ahead and crank up our campaign, and there were three major candidates in the race - Carl Parker, Fred Head, and myself.
- MP: ... And what do you recall about that race?
- BC: It got nasty.
- MP: In what way, what do you recall?
- BC: Carl Parker and Fred Head ... got pretty bitter at each other . . . And, of course it accrued to my benefit because I sat on the sideline and picked up votes.
- But, I went into the race, wasn't supposed to win . . . And, we had a very interesting Labor Day blitz, where we had about 20 or 30 of our inner circle . . . come in and we rented a whole top floor of the Driskill Hotel and had additional phones installed, and started calling the members . . .
- And I'd made the press release and I was going to the press the day after Labor Day and announce 76 members supporting me . . . So . .. that blitz when we started we didn't have but about 40 or 50 . ..
- What happened ... we had the 20 or 30 members up there. They were calling from those rooms to the members. The members didn't know they were calling from Austin.
- They thought they were probably calling from their districts . .. Well, after each member got, say, 15 or 20 calls, they said, You know, there may be something to this, and we'd get a commitment... It was probably one of the smartest things we ever did.
- MP: .. . Was that your idea or was it. . .?
- BC: No, it was my idea . .. and when we started to go down and make our press, we - we still lacked two members . . . And as we started down, there were two members coming up ... I'll never forget it. They pledged too and made it exactly 76.
- MP: So you just had the amount . . . ?
- BC: I just had the amount.
- MP: Now . . . that was an interesting time to be Speaker because . . . there had [been] a few years earlier . . . the Sharpstown scandal and a lot of heads rolled . . . and . . . you had another period where you had lots of freshmen legislators. You had that 1974 Constitutional Convention . . . [a]nd that had failed . . .
- BC: Well, it never did go to a vote.
- MP: ... [A]nd Speaker Daniel was very involved in that effort, so what was the atmosphere like being the Speaker right after that. . . ? Also, just going back in time a little bit, why do you think that convention failed - the Constitutional Convention?
- BC: Well, I think we tried to take on too much, to write the whole Constitution ... If you took a section or article at the time, then you wouldn't get so many [opposed] . . .
- [I]f you wrote the whole constitution and ... say, somebody was against Article Five, but just for the rest of it. They'd vote against it because of Article Five.
- So, it was hard to get everybody together and to rewrite it . . . But, when I became speaker I appointed Ray Hutchison, Chairman of the Constitutional Committee, and charged him to take that document that we'd worked on the whole year at taxpayers' expense, and put it out to the people and let them vote on it. . .
- Pass or fail, who cares . . . But at least give them the opportunity, since we spent the money on it. . . Well, as you might remember, it went down about ten to one.
- MP: . . . Why do you think ... the voters didn't like it?
- BC: I think it was the same reason the members didn't like it.. . Too big a bite at one time.
- MP: So, you would be in favor of phasing in a new constitution or just amending it?
- BC: It's just . . . if you're ever going to do it and I think we probably should, just take smaller chunks at a time.
- MP: ... I was going to ask that later, but why do you think the constitution should be changed or what do you think are the chief flaws of it now?
- BC: Did you ever go through the constitution? (Laughs)
- MP: ... It's a really lengthy document.
- BC: Yeah ... [and so many] antiquities in the constitution and .. . time changes and, you know, we do things different now . . .?
- MP: ... [Y]ou explain why in 1974 it failed but... this comes up frequently, you know. It has since the 1870's. Why has it endured for so long when it has all these flaws, do you think?
- BC: Well, again, I think the reason is, everybody's tried it too big a bite at one time.
- MP: .. .[W]hat would you like to be the chief differences, you know, in a new state constitution . . . if you could write it . . . ?
- BC: I'd sure like to see it simplified ... and ... brought down to a understandable document.
- MP: Do you think the process of legislation by amendment - would you do anything about that or do you think that's a good idea, to have people vote on all these [issues that] I guess what would in other states be just part of the legislative process?
- BC: Well, that's .. . when we have to do it, according to our Constitution.
- MP: . . . Would you like to change that?
- BC: I think there are certain issues that people need to vote on . . . But there are other issues that probably they don't. . . And so, consequently, if you revise the Constitution, you try to find out which of those issues to go on each side of the ledger.
- MP: . . . [W]hen you entered the Speaker's office, what year was that again?
- BC: Well, it was '74... or'75...
- MP: . .. [W]hat did you have to accomplish, what was your vision for how you would . .. spend your time at the beginning of that term?
- BC: Well, I wanted to be a speaker that the members could say . . . "he's a members' speaker." .. . And, so we looked at all the improvements in the rules and things and we went along and tried to modernize.
- We were the first ones that put the House on computerization . . . We used to do all of our journals by hand. All of that kind of stuff. The old Water Development bulletin board had some excess computer space on there.
- We didn't have any big computers at state, they had only the board. And we leased space from them and put our business ... on line . .. And I wanted to see it run like a business.
- I wanted to see it operate efficiently, and I wanted to see everybody be pleased with the way it operated.
- MP: Okay. So for you, the most important thing right off the bat was just streamlining the process and . . . improving ... I guess the infrastructure of. . . doing business
- BC: Right.
- MP: And you feel pretty good about how that went ... ?
- BC: Yes ... I really do.
- MP: . . . [A]t that point, what did you see is the relationship between the speaker, the lieutenant governor's office and the governor . . .?
- BC: Well, ironically, I think the speaker and lieutenant governor have more power than the governor . .. And, my thinking is if a speaker can serve more than two terms ... he gets his feet on the ground and he's more equal than the lieutenant governor ...
- I don't think there's any difference in the power between the two . . . other than one who can finesse the other.
- MP: . . . So . . . you were working with Dolph Briscoe, right. . .?
- BC: And Bill Clements.
- MP: Bill Clements, and .... do you remember who the lieutenant governor is?
- BC: Bill Hobby.
- MP: . . . What was your relationship with Briscoe and Clements and Bill Hobby?
- BC: We got along good . . . They listened. We had a meeting nearly every morning, and discussed the issues that were coming up. I don't think there could've been any more camaraderie.
- MP: Did you feel like you had a common perspective politically, [so] that. . . you were seeing issues ... in the same way with these other office holders, the governors and lieutenant governors?
- BC: Particularly with the two governors.
- MP: ... [D]id anyone play the role of initiator during that time? ... [D]id you see yourself as the initiator or Bill Hobby as the initiator or either of the two governors or .. .
- BC: It kind of concerned the issue . . . and each of us played the role when it was necessary.
- MP: ... Was there a difference in working with Dolph Briscoe and working with Bill Clements? A difference in their styles . . .?
- BC: They were certainly different personalities but I found them both very easy to work with.
- MP: ... How would you describe the difference in their personalities .. .?
- BC: Well, Governor Clements was just, I guess, more direct. . . When he said something he didn't hem-haw around or try to soften it or be politically correct.
- He just said it. . . And Briscoe on the other hand was a pretty gentlemanly ... a lot softer.
- MP: ... Did you find one style to be more effective than the other or did they both work . . . ?
- BC: I thought they both worked.
- MP: Did any governor in particular stick out in your mind in your many years of service [who struck] . . . you ... [as] a governor who you felt did the best job and that you were most impressed with, during your time in office?
- BC: Well, every one that I recall having a different way of serving us did. And considering their different personalities ... I think they all did pretty good.
- MP: Okay, you didn't see anyone as being particularly ineffective either.
- BC: No.
- MP: . . . [O]ne of the constitutional issues you mentioned was the governor's not as strong as the lieutenant governor and the speaker. Do you feel it should be that way, that that's a good thing, or do you think that's one of the things that you could change?
- BC: I've looked at and questioned that, a number of times. And, I think probably the executive ought to have a little more power ... But, I'd certainly take it away from the legislative branch.
- MP: ... I was going to ask you about your experience living in the capitol. From what I understand, it's unique for the speaker to actually live in the state capitol.
- That's only in Texas that that happens, and I was curious about what your experience was in the speaker's residence and whether it was an advantage or a disadvantage, to have your residence right where you did your business.
- BC: Well, I didn't live in the Capitol... I changed the Speaker's apartment into staff offices ... I kept one little room with a bed in it. In case somebody got sick or something . . . they could use it.
- MP: Why did you do that?
- BC: But then we kept the dining room ... and used it for receptions and conferences . . . But . . . we just didn't like that.
- MP: Why did you make that change?
- BC: I felt like I needed the space, and I didn't feel like Texas owed me a place to live.
- MP: ... So there was a substantial change in the makeup of...
- BC: Yeah.
- MP: . . . that area, so basically the big effort was to convert the space into office space again, right? And yet add phone lines, I guess, and to do things like that... at the Speaker's residence? Was there a lot of renovation going on to turn it into an office?
- BC: No. No.
- MP: Okay. Did you find it was a good thing to not have to live there where people .. . would be like they had access to you all the time?
- BC: Well, I felt like I lived there anyway because I was always down there around seven, seven-thirty in the morning, didn't leave till nearly midnight every night, and days. Well, I was there enough.
- MP: ... You thought you didn't have to sleep there.
- BC: Yeah.
- MP: ... [W]hat was your relationship as speaker to the factions you've mentioned already - the liberal factions and conservative factions - and how did you balance ... the need to be the speaker with your political ideology . . . ?
- BC: Well, that one's a kind of a tough nut to crack, running for speaker . . .
- And, with Fred Head and Carl Parker basically picking off all the liberals' support, and then me having the conservative support or the core of it, it was suggested that I needed a mix in my team, that I needed some liberal legislators.
- I had an interesting experience. Fred Head finally had a bellyful and pulled out of the race. Well, that left a lot of members out there wondering where to go to. I got on the phone, and I called Houston.
- I called Mickey Leland and Craig Washington and Benny Reyes and asked them to come to Austin and I'd pay their way - [to] come over to my house. I wanted to talk about them joining my team.
- We spent two or three hours in my living room, and they wanted to know what I'd give them. And I told them, "I'll give you exactly what I've given everybody else. No promises. But I will listen to your issues, and I will be open-minded."
- And, Craig Washington then said, "Can you really understand my urban area?" I said, "I can, Craig, but you're going to have to make me understand it, and I'm willing to do that."
- And, they kept on though, trying to get some commitments out of them, and ... I told them, "I want to be your Speaker, but I am not going to make any commitments to anybody. You're gonna have just as fair a shake as anybody."
- Well, before they left, they . . . agreed to support me ... And so that kind of broke over into where I began to pick up some liberal support.. . And they were basically those that had committed to Fred Head actually jumped out.
- MP: So during the course of your term as Speaker, did you feel like you had fairly cordial relationships with both sides?
- BC: Oh, yes. Yeah.
- MP: . . . [W]as there something about the nature of the House then that was easier to cross that ideological divide .. . ?
- BC: Well, in our appointments as committee chairs, we appointed Hispanics, blacks, Anglos, conservatives, liberals, and even appointed . . . one of the first Republicans to a chair, because there weren't many Republicans involved.
- And, it all worked good. I think every one of them depended on me to do what was right. [I] wasn't because of some ideology going run over somebody. It was going to be done on an even base, the Legislature was going to seek its own level.
- MP: Now, once you were Speaker and you had to consider . . . the whole state . . . you weren't representing just the district anymore . . .
- BC: Right.
- MP: You'd mentioned that you had grown up in a town that was very rural, almost entirely white . . . was there an education process from your time in the House when you were dealing with urban legislators? .. . What do you think you learned from that experience in terms of I guess the urban experience and the African-American [experience] . . . ?
- BC: Well, I saw the other side of life. (Laughs) I mean, I saw something totally different than what I have been accustomed to.
- MP: Did that in any way change your political philosophy ...?
- BC: I began to see needs in, say, the Fifth Ward Houston that were different from needs in my district. . . and realized that the state was very diverse and that the whole of it needed to be accepted and worked with.
- MP: So ... how does your conservative philosophy, I guess, fit with that when you were seeing the different needs? How did you apply your philosophy to problems ... that existed, say, in the Fifth Ward in Houston?
- BC: Well, an urban area's no different than a rural area, as far as that's concerned because ... any issue you take there's a . . . probably liberal way to do it and a conservative way to do it.
- From the conservative standpoint, I tried to do everything that was fiscally sound. From a social standpoint, I tried to be open and understanding.
- MP: Now, one of the reform measures you pushed through the House was to allow members to file bills before sessions were called, and allow these House committees more time and input into the budget process.
- Is that one of the flaws of the state constitution [you think], that... up to that point, at least, the Legislature could only look at the state economy and the state budget once every two years, and do you think the Legislature even now should be given more time to work on these issues. You know, the need to call special sessions. Do you see that as a handicap?
- BC: I don't see it as handicap . . . if they do their own work. And if you're suggesting which I prefer, an annual budget or a biennial budget. . .?
- MP: Yeah.
- BC: ... I would not change a biennial for an annual at all.
- MP: Why is that?
- BC: Why is that? Any time you've got the bureaucracies, the agencies come through the Legislature. They want their hand in the bucket... And, dealing with it one time every two years is a whole lot - dealing with it two times every two years ..
- MP: Do you feel the legislature should meet on a continual basis . .. ?
- BC: No . . . Absolutely not... I think you get away from the citizens' legislature that way . . . Now I think they ought to be paid more, because they do a lot more work ...
- But, I don't think they ought to be in session all the time, and then you'd have a Congress.
- MP: Okay. What do you think about the school finance situation right now . . . ?
- BC: It's a mess.
- MP: Well, what do you think is the chief problem with it? What's going on?
- BC: Well, the chief problem, I guess, is the way these funds are distributed. It's fair and it's unfair. Robin Hood, some love it and some hate it. And I really haven't given it a lot of thought.
- However, everybody has given it some . . . And, you know, I think when we got away from a state ad valorem tax for our schools, we might've made a mistake.
- We did that basically when. . . [we] went through [Orange Rep. Wayne] Peveto's Bill where we set up the tax appraisal districts, to try to make all property fairer in accounting.
- But we should've [gone] ... probably a step further, and tried to figure up an appraisal system that would - appraised all state property on a equal, fair basis .. .
- Then, we could've collected an ad valorem tax on a fair basis and then distributed it to the schools . . . on a ADA basis. But, there's such a differential in the way property's taxed in one district than another district, that that still seems unfair.
- MP: Do you feel like - on issues like education, it should be treated as a state institution rather than a series of local. . . ?
- BC: Oh .. . don't get me wrong. I think local control is very important. But, it is public schools. And . . . the old Hale-Akin, Gilmore-Akin bills funded public education - about 80% from the state and 20% from the locals.
- Now it's just reversed. And, so I think we probably need to get back to some other ratio, maybe a 60 or 70% from the state, the rest of it from locals but I don't think we oughta usurp local control of the school board.
- MP: Do you think a state income tax would be a good idea to fund public schools . ..?
- BC: I'd rather see probably a broad-based tax, like a value-added, or something like that. However, I've always said I was against the income tax. Texans get really rooked be cause we have no way to deduct...