Tom and Nadine Craddick Interview
- MP: Mrs. Craddick, I want to thank you for participating in this interview. I am Michael Phillips. I am with the Center for American History, and we are interviewing Mrs. Nadine Craddick who is the wife of current Texas House Speaker Tom Craddick, and we are speaking at the Speaker's apartment at the Capitol.
- MP: Mrs. Craddick, I wanted to see if you could begin by talking about the fact that you live in the Capitol itself.
- You have an apartment that is part of a public space, and I want you to describe for us your feelings about the Capitol and what is unique about it, and the significance of this building to the State of Texas.
- NC: The Speaker's apartment is the only apartment in the United States that is in a public building, and in a State Capitol building. So that makes it very unique in and of itself....
- I never seem to get over ... the awesome feeling of walking in here, and living in the apartment has been an incredible experience. Texas has the only speaker's apartment in a Capitol building in the United States and that in itself makes it so unique and such a wonderful space to live in.
- We have had all kinds of people come in. I feel like it is a public space, it is a private space, and it is a semi-private space.
- I tried to open up this apartment and let people know that it is available and that it is here. We have tourists that go through here almost every day because we are all Texans, and we all have a shared history.
- And at this time, Tom and I are just passing through here, and someone else comes in behind us and maybe that's what makes it so special, is that we feel so privileged and honored to live here.
- MP: Does the Capitol building make you feel like the past is present here at all times?
- NC: Absolutely. I mean, I think anyone, any Texan, who walks in this building or any visitor who walks in this building, no matter what door you enter, you just have this incredible feeling of pride and the sense of the past in the way that it has been preserved back in the '90s for all Texans for so many years to come.
- It is beautiful. The splendor of it and the magnificence of the building, you can't help but be in awe of the surroundings.
- MP: ... [Y]ou grew up in Sweetwater ... Could you tell me a little bit about your childhood there and how you came to meet your husband, who later became Texas House speaker?
- NC: My family actually still lives in Sweetwater. They have been there almost 70 years. I am the oldest of the family. I have a brother and a sister.
- My family had, what they used to call a dry goods store, you know, they were merchants. And I went to Texas Tech and graduated from high school in 1965 and went to Tech, and I was a freshman when I met Tom.
- And I was in the library and I was very young, very new to the school, when I sat down at his table and somebody's books were there, but I did not know which was his table, so to speak.
- And he came back and informed me that I was sitting at his table and that I needed to move, and I think he took my pencil and broke it, or maybe, I took his pencil and broke it.
- I cannot quite remember, and we really did not start dating until I was a junior because Tom was in graduate school at the time.
- MP: He was in graduate school for what?
- NC: Well, he was finishing probably the year after that, I think, his BBA, and then he went on to work on his doctorate in finance and that is when he started running for the Legislature and did all the coursework but never finished the dissertation.
- MP: And you were there to study, what were your plans when you got to Texas Tech? What were you hoping to do?
- NC: I was a teacher, I got my teaching degree. I graduated in three and a half years, and then I did teach school in Lubbock after I graduated from college.
- MP: Are you still teaching?
- NC: I am not still teaching. Tom and I, when we married I moved to Midland and I am what you would call a community volunteer.
- MP: What was your impression of Tom when you first met him, when you had that first encounter at the library? What did that leave you with, that first encounter, and how did things go from there?
- NC: Well, I actually thought we were very different, and I never even thought about dating him at that time.
- It wasn't until I was in my junior year and I was up there for a summer, taking summer classes, and he was up there and we had a date, and I liked the fact that he had a strong sense of family.
- I met his sisters, and we just kind of hit it off. It was a very comfortable feeling.
- MP: So how long was it before you got married to Tom?
- NC: About two years. We dated for two years.
- MP: When did he run his first campaign?
- NC: 1968.
- MP: Was that during those two and a half years that you were dating?
- NC: Yes.
- MP: So what was that like, dating someone who is also running for public office? That had to make the calendar rather crowded didn't it?
- NC: It made the calendar very crowded, but you have to remember how young we were at that time. I mean, I was still in college. I was 21 years old at that time, and he was 24 or 25 at that time.
- And it was exciting, and it was fun, and I was in and out of Midland, meeting a lot of people, long before I ever moved there, and we are still lifelong friends with all of people he grew up with.
- MP: Did you have any sense during that first campaign of, "What have I gotten myself into ... this is kind of crazy" or were you excited to be a part of the political process?
- NC: It was exciting to be part of the political process, and to be real truthful, I do not think I really understood the entire picture of running a campaign until we were actually married.
- And then we ran the second time, and we had a very close, difficult race and that is when I really began with grassroots politics.
- MP: So what was that second race like - you were married by that point, right?
- NC: Yes.
- MP: What was that second race? You said it was difficult? Could you talk a little bit about that and what that experience was like?
- NC: Yes, it was a gentleman who spent, I cannot remember exactly, but maybe like $52,000 which is a lot of money back in 1970.
- And Tom spent like $7,000 or $8000, and we typed lots of lists, he walked door to door a lot. I type most of the lists every night, and he would go out and walk the doors of the undecided voters.
- We are very much grassroots people and that is just how we knew how to run a campaign. We would go to the football games on the weekends and have bumper stickers and had brochures.
- At the time, you were going to home coffees. You did not have high dollar people helping you. It was kind of a local thing, and we still have the same campaign manager that we did 35 years ago.
- MP: Lots of club luncheons, I guess?
- NC: Lots of luncheons, lots of dinners, and lots of coffees in people's homes and that is how you met people.
- MP: I guess that would be called the "rubber chicken" circuit?
- NC: We did the "rubber chicken." Sometimes we weren't serving chicken. When you are a politician, you go to these functions, and to be real truthful, you do not have time to eat a lot, because people are talking to you.
- MP: ... So you got to the point, I guess, where you settled into the life of being married to a politician and splitting your life between Midland and Austin. What was that like, what was that experience?
- NC: Well, to be real truthful, I did not live down here for many, many years. I lived down here when our daughter was maybe six months old through that particular legislative session.
- And the next session I was pregnant with our son, Tommy, and toward the end of the session, I had to go home and stay at home because he was due in July.
- And then I really did not live down here for 30 years. I chose to stay at home. It was the times.
- MP: Now, what was that like? During the legislative years, during the sessions, you are having to maintain the marriage long distance. Did that put any stresses or pressures or were you guys able to bridge that difference?
- NC: I think we bridged it actually very well. Coming from the community of Midland where it is an oil and gas industry kind of community, a lot of our friends ... may not have been in the legislature but they might have been out on a well or they may have been traveling.
- So during the day you really do not miss them because they are not in the office anyway. It is only in the evenings when you realize that they were not there and Tom and I talked lots on the telephone, we still do, we had great communication.
- We had a great partnership and it just seem to work better for us to stay at home and to have the children in school and to keep them secure in their environment and that was the choice that we made.
- MP: Now what was that like as the wife of a public figure having to open the newspaper and knowing there might be something about your husband in the newspaper, what has the experience been like?
- NC: Well, in our own hometown community, I would say they have been very friendly toward us and we really never had what I would say were a lot of critical things written about us in our Midland newspaper.
- It has only been since Tom has become speaker that there have been articles that have not been very nice about him.
- I am very protective of him and of my children and I think most wives are. And I can't say that I like reading about it. Therefore, I just don't read it.
- MP: Now, if one of your children said, "You know, I am interested ... I think I am ready to run for public office." What would be the reaction be?
- Would you be supportive, would you try to discourage them from doing that or what would you say to them?
- NC: ... If my children decided to run for office, I would be very supportive because you are serving the public and it is public service.
- I came from a family that volunteered as did Tom, and I think that's what they've seen both of us do through our lifetime.
- I have been involved in many civic activities of volunteering through the schools, through other organizations in the community.
- And Tom is a true public servant and I think it is good that we have lived at home because it makes you in tune with your constituency and you don't lose touch with what your community's needs really are.
- MP: So did you moved here when Tom became Speaker?
- NC: Yes.
- MP: Could you tell me about the experience and then I would like you talk a little bit about, I guess, your life in this apartment.
- NC: Oh, it was very exciting. We literally moved in after he was elected Speaker.
- And I have had fun just finding some of the furniture that was on floor two and three which is considered the Speaker's area, bringing it down here, trying to bring it back to how it might have been in the 1800s when this building was completed.
- And we had a wonderful time living here. It is a building that never sleeps, there is something going on all night long.
- There are either the mail people coming, or they are refurbishing or refinishing or restoring or doing whatever they do here. It is pretty noisy to live here.
- But it has been very convenient. All we have to do is get up and walk out of this particular space, walk through in another door and he is in the office.
- It has been very convenient because the first session they met sometimes until 2 and 3 and we had meetings up here late at night or early in the morning so it has been a real plus to live here.
- MP: Do they have the sound from the chamber piped into here? Can you listen to the session?
- NC: There is a television that sits over here that we can turn on and you can hear what is going on in the chamber all the time.
- MP: Do you kind of look occasionally at the screen to see what is happening?
- NC: Occasionally, but I am really not in this space very often.
- MP: . . . [H]ow do you spend most of your time?
- NC: Well, I have a schedule just like Tom. I am usually out in the front when people are coming, meeting the doctor of the day or the minister of the day or people that get to go out on the floor.
- I have coffees back here either in the apartment or in the conference room for different delegations. We have had people literally from all over the world.
- We have got a group coming next week from South Africa. We have had people coming from Hungary, people from Mexico and people from Canada, people from all over the state and usually when a representative asks for a special coffee to be held, I am happy to host something back there.
- MP: Now, how would you define your role primarily as a speaker's wife? What would be your primary duties, I guess?
- NC: Supporting. That's how I define my role. I am in the back. He is the man that was elected. I am here just to support him.
- MP: And, do you see yourself as an unofficial ambassador for the state to receive all these visitors and is it your job to promote the state?
- NC: Absolutely. I think we are all unofficial ambassadors. Anyone that is out here meeting and greeting people from all over the state or other countries, you are an ambassador for your state. I am very proud to do that.
- MP: You are saying how the building never sleeps. Does it make it difficult for you and your husband to sleep here?
- NC: Well, sometimes. It is getting used to. It is like moving into another home. You get used to the sounds. I remember one night at 4 o'clock in the morning the noise was unbelievable.
- We both sat up straight and they were power washing stairs right outside the bedroom window . . . that is when they do all their chores.
- That is when they are polishing the floors, they are cleaning the outside of the building. Everything goes on at night, so there is literally a crew that is working 24 hours a day to keep this building so pristine.
- MP: Do you have a sense of privacy here or do you feel you can create that space where your husband can relax and you know feel like he is not the fish bowl at that moment or is it that hard to do?
- NC: It is hard to do. He spends most of his time in the office. Very seldom does he actually take the time to come in and sit down in the living room and basically the only private space is our bedroom and that is kind of an off limits too.
- MP: Do you have family events here? Do you have their children come here or do you go back to Midland.
- NC: We go back to Midland.
- MP: Have you had any unintended interactions with the public, because some of the earlier Speakers - I imagine it is a more secure building now - but there have been stories from previous Speakers' families where tourists have accidentally wandered in. .. .
- [Y]ou know, you had some people ... who aren't supposed to be here end up here. Have you ever had any of those experiences?
- NC: We had one that I can recall last session. The door was unlocked and I think all tourists, they're curious, and they just opened doors and come in.
- And at that time there was a guest book on this entry table in the foyer and all of the sudden the girls looked up and there was a family coming up with a stroller and everybody was coming out and they obviously were very excited to be here.
- They did not even know what they space they were coming in, they signed the book and they just looked around but as far as me being here and being surprised, no I have not.
- MP: Do you find you are able to relax here? It is a public space but it is also a residence, so do you sometimes feel like you are sort of in a museum or do you feel like this is really home, a place you can make yourself relax.
- NC: I think I can relax here sometimes, but it is a museum ... it is not like I leave my sewing sitting around or the newspapers.
- I always feel like it needs to look like a space where people would be proud to come in and see what it looked like.
- MP: . .. [Y]ou are really active in documenting the history of this apartment and you know the history of Speaker's office. Could you tell me a little bit about this, the story of how you can got involved in that and why you were interested in doing this?
- NC: Well, we got here and I tried to find information about former Speakers and families that have lived here and I realized there really wasn't any information.
- And it really started one evening at the Speaker's dinner two years ago and I was visiting with Ben Barnes and I told him I had his idea about really doing a project about the speakers and had talked to some people at University of Texas.
- And he encouraged me to do that and he told us some wonderful stories that I thought needed to be documented for history because it is such a wonderful place.
- And that sort of started my interest and I talked to Larry Faulkner who is the president of the University of Texas.
- And he thought that it would be a good idea and then, I think, he talked to Dr. Carlton who confirmed that there had been nothing done on this space and that there would be a wonderful place and that UT is the largest repository of Texas history in the United States and that we will need to have something done on it.
- And so it just sort of took off because I am a real history buff. I love history.
- MP: Did you do any redecorating of this space since you have been here? Is there anything that you have done yourself?
- NC: As far as changing the walls, changing the wood, changing any of that, no that is all done by the Preservation Board and we cannot change . .. these are the actual colors of the wall, what they would have been when was completed in 1888.
- What I have done is bring the furniture down here and have it re-covered in fabrics that would have been here during that period.
- MP: ... [Y]ou have this program where you have the artists, the Texas artists, could you tell me a little bit about that?
- NC: That really is a project of the Preservation Board and it started back in the '90s. And the prerequisite was that it be a Texas artist and they painted here between 1880 and 1920 and so some of the art hanging in this room and in the dining room are pieces from the Preservation Board, that are presently just on loan to the Speaker's apartment.
- MP: And is there a favorite part of the apartment, or a favorite piece of furniture or anything that you would like to talk about?
- NC: I particularly love this room because I think it is very comfortable. It has got comfortable chairs in it and it is a nice space to have people in and just to sit and visit. I have really enjoyed this living room very much.
- MP: What would you characterize as most memorable event you hosted here? What sticks in your mind?
- NC: Last spring, during the last session, we hosted the families of the young men and women who had died in Iraq, and that was one of the most memorable events, and most touching and moving events that I have ever attended. I was very honored to have them be here and to honor their families.
- MP: I really appreciate it Mrs. Craddick. Thank you very much.
- NC: My pleasure.
- MP: Thank you.
- PC: This is Patrick Cox and I am with the Center for American History. This is a segment of our oral history program that we are doing with the House Speakers from the State of Texas.
- Today, we are with Speaker Tom Craddick. Speaker Craddick was elected Speaker of the 78th regular session in 2003 and re-elected this in January in the 79th session of 2005.
- PC: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for being with us today.
- TC: My pleasure, thank you.
- PC: The first thing I would like to ask you about is about the residence in the Capitol itself. The speaker's residence is unique in being here in the capitol . . . tell me about the history of this building and this office.
- TC: Well it really is unique. It is only one in the United States where any member of the legislature or officer lives in.
- And it is really intriguing when you go to other states or go to conferences, they say, "Tell us about, you really live in the Capitol?" and I kid and tell people that we live in the biggest house in the state of Texas . . .
- It is fun living here. It's unique. It's also noisy. The Capitol never sleeps and so that is an interesting part of it. We have really opened it up more and it has changed a lot.
- My wife Nadine has gone across the Capitol and found old pieces that belonged up here and re-covered them and then we opened the Speaker's apartment out more than it has never been done before since I have been here and we are seeing tours go through here.
- You're having groups that come in and meet in it. We have a lot of receptions in it. We've been having lunches and dinners in here and this has never been used like this before. We really feel like it is part of Texas history and everyone needs to enjoy it.
- PC: During the legislative session, you live here, work here, you entertain here. Tell me, what is a typical day like here during the session of the legislature?
- TC:... I get dressed between 6:00 to 6:30 because the cleaning staff does not clean at night in the Capitol. They clean in the early mornings.
- And so, in fact, my biggest goal in this session of Legislature is we have tiled floors on all the hallways and that all the cleaning parts have plastic wheels and they go click, click, click, clank, clank, clank.
- So my goal was to have rubber wheels put on the cleaning facility. But the day is pretty full where both Nadine and I are up early and the staff comes in, the cleaning crews are in and then we usually start meetings by 7:00 or have breakfasts.
- And so like this morning we have the governor and the lieutenant governor and I meet once a week and we alternate places to meet.
- We either meet at the governor's mansion, the lieutenant governor's office, or over here, so we have something going every morning and generally we are not through until late in the evening.
- PC: Well, I would like to step back a few years to go back with you when you were growing up and could you tell me where you grew up, what your parents did, and where you went to school?
- TC: Well, I was born in Beloit, Wisconsin, and we moved to Midland when I was like 8 years old, and my dad started the first toy store between Dallas and El Paso.
- He came down to visit his best friend one year just to visit with him and was in the heating and plumbing business up in Wisconsin. He came to Midland.
- Midland was in a era boom in the early '50s and they did not have a toy store. And of course the wealth was great at that point because of the oil boom and he went back and on his way back from Midland to Beloit, he went through Kansas City and bought these toys.
- And he went and told his mother and rest of us that we were going to move to Midland. So we moved out there and I grew up in Midland.
- I went to a Catholic school through the 8th grade and rode a bus over from our side of town over there. My dad got into the toy business.
- Then he started a drug store known as Craddick's Drug which had a lunch counter and so a lot of people knew my father.
- He sponsored a lot of ... high school and junior high and grade school baseball teams and all of this, and my dad had a small business and we were a middle class family and I had sisters that were there.
- My oldest sister was already at the University of Wisconsin Nursing School and my other two sisters were in Midland with us.
- So we just were, I guess, an average family and we watched Midland grow and we grew with it.
- PC: Your dad, you said, was active in a lot of civic affairs.... [W]as he or anybody else in your family involved in politics in Midland before you?
- TC: Actually, I said my dad was a Democratic precinct chairman when I ran for the Legislature as a Republican. My dad was involved and my dad was involved somewhat when we lived in Wisconsin.
- He was very involved in community life, both in Wisconsin and in Midland. So I think we get our civic activity from my parents, both of them.
- My mother worked in the drug store and the toy store with my dad was also very involved in the schools for with us.
- PC: ... [G]rowing up in Midland, how did you view politics and what did you think of political events and what were your early memories of political affairs?
- TC: I guess that my earliest memory was really when I was in like junior high and high school and during presidential years we would have mock conventions and things like this.
- And actually when Kennedy ran against Nixon, I was a Democrat and I was for Kennedy and I, you know, didn't know much about the philosophies at that time and we had a mock debate in our high school.
- And my best friend was the Nixon head and I was the Kennedy one. And so that I kind of got involved in and just got interested in issues and really got more into it.
- I ran in junior high and high school for offices, then really got involved in college in politics.
- PC: When you were growing up, of course, this was in the age prior to and during the civil right movement ... [D]o you have any recollection of... any issues involving discussion of civil rights and ... or segregation? Do you have any memories of segregation?
- TC: I really don't. Not in Midland. I mean, we just did not have that problem out there.
- And we lived over an area of town as I mentioned earlier, my dad was involved in sports teams and I played baseball and that we had a real mixture ... on that team way back then so there really was not anything noticeable in our community.
- PC: Tell me about when you first met your wife, Nadine. What was the occasion and what prompted your interest?
- TC: Actually, Nadine and I met in the library and it was interesting. I tell you the story because I was over there studying and I was in graduate school and she was in undergraduate school and I really spent a lot of time at the library and in the student union.
- I played a lot of bridge too, when I was in college, so I would just leave my books over at the library on a certain table and I really never took them back to my apartment and I'd just leave everything there.
- Back then you could do that and so I had all my stuff stacked on a table over there and one day I came over and Nadine was sitting at the table and I told her "You're sitting at my table," and that is how we met.
- She was beautiful and ... we did not really start dating then and then I... started a business while I was in school. I built a car wash with some other people and she was involved in sorority rush and her lodge was next door to our car wash we built.
- And so one summer she was out there for free rush and I was I working in the car wash and I saw her one day and asked her for date.
- What is interesting, she fell asleep on our first date but other than that it worked out pretty well.
- PC: When were you all married and how many children do you have?
- TC: We were married in 1969 in the middle of the special session of the Legislature and we have two children. We have a daughter Christine and a son Tommy.
- PC: Well, speaking of the state Legislature in 1969, what prompted your interest and how did you become involved in running for state representative?
- TC: Well, a lot of people would tell you if you go to Midland that when I was 12 and 13, I decided that I want to run for the Legislature and I just really had this interest in it early on.
- And then I continued to build interest in it and got involved in college and actually I was going to run two years before I ran and I quit school.
- I was in graduate school and I quit school and I came down to run because I thought the incumbent was not going to run for re-election and he announced he was running for re-election and I knew I was in trouble.
- My dad suggested I go back to finish my graduate degree and I went around and I visited on this with two or three people in the community and they told me that if I wanted to run to go back and finish my education.
- I did that and then two years later at Christmas I came back and went on to see those same people and they offered to help me.
- PC: In 1968, you did decide to run for the Legislature?
- TC: Right, I came home at Christmas time. I was in graduate school and I was teaching at Tech and I came home in '68 and I spent the Christmas holidays going around visiting with people and the incumbent, Frank Cahoon had told me he was not going to run.
- I went by to visit with him first and I went around to see the county judge, Barbara Culver and some other people.
- And my father's best friend . . . came down when we moved from Wisconsin, his wife was the head of the League of Women Voters, so I went over and visited with her and I got some people to help me.
- And they had what they called a candidate's committee back then, the Republican Party did, and actually both parties offered me a chance to run on their ticket.
- And the Democratic chairman in Midland County wrote my announcement because he thought I was going to run as Democrat and I ran as a Republican.
- I went before this candidate's committee and at that time I weighed 75 pounds more than I do today. And the main question they said they didn't think I could win because, one, I was Catholic and they did not think I could win in that community and, two, they thought I was too young to run.
- And the third question was can you lose 20 pounds in order to look better on television, so I lost 75 pounds. I met that goal but the other two I didn't work too well on.
- PC: Interesting you mention television, because is television already was playing a role in state representative races of the time?
- TC: It is, and we were in the one county race at that time and so it was a big factor. Mainly 1600 people is all that voted in the primary and I walked most of those people and we took everyone that voted in the primaries.
- PC: So television was a factor in the 1960s in your first race in Midland?
- TC: It was. Television, as you know, was not used that much in politics but it was cheaper back then in relation to today. We mainly ran it in newscasts.
- And we had very small turnout at the primary, so we mainly concentrated on handouts, which we used wooden nickels rather than cards which was kind of unique and that was my idea.
- And my campaign people did not like it at first, but it caught on real well and we used mail. We only had 1600 people vote in the primary so we were able to almost go door-to-door and talk to each one of them by looking at who had voted in the last two primaries.
- PC: When you were elected, in your first session you came to Austin, Gus Mutscher is speaker, correct?
- TC: Right.
- PC: Tell me about your first encounter with Speaker Mutscher and what transpired.
- TC: Well first of all I had never been in the state Capitol before I ran for the Legislature. We came down and took a picture outside of the Capitol, so I looked like I had this look of knowing what I was doing and I will tell you a funny story that happened to me and I will go into Mutscher.
- The day that I got sworn in ... my parents came down for the swearing. I was not married at that time, and so you pull into the Capitol grounds, as you know, and go around it and I pulled into a parking place where they told me to park.
- And the parking guard would not let me park there because he did not think I should be there and I told him I was a member of the House. He didn't believe it.
- My parents said they can vouch for me, so they finally let me park there. But anyway, I met Mutscher actually that day. I had never met him beforehand and I met him that day that we were sworn in and he was very cordial and we visited a little bit and visited with him more the next week or so.
- PC: When you met with him, did you discuss ideas that you would like to accomplish in the Legislature or express your preference for a committee?
- TC: I did express my preference for a committee as most members do that when they meet with the speaker, or first meet him, or at least when the session starts and at that point, we had a couple of issues.
- We had a college issue in our district at that point, so I talked to him about that. You know there were eight or nine, I guess eight Republicans when I got here and I was the youngest member of the House at that point and I was not high on the priority list for everybody to listen to what I wanted to do.
- PC: During the term when Speaker Mutscher is serving, he becomes involved in what is known as the Sharpstown affair and at what stage did you develop a concern about the transactions that were going on and the actual politics that was going on in the Speaker's office?
- TC: When the Sharpstown activity came out there was a lot of concern immediately and what I was real concerned about was a bill passed for money or not. . .
- And I think that everybody wanted disclosure from the Speaker and so it kind of mushroomed from that point. And as you probably are aware, there were 30 of us that cast a vote on a disclosure issue.
- And at that point, we were nicknamed the "Dirty Thirty" or the group that really wanted ethics reform and wanted to push for some type of, if not an investigation, at least a disclosure by the speaker.
- And that grew and grew during that legislative session and into the special session that we had and then Mutscher resigned.
- PC: Of course, during that time period after you and the others went on record, of course redistricting was also taking place and your district was altered somewhat.
- TC: Right. They split my district down the street I lived on in Midland. And Midland ended up instead of being united as a county of one district, part of it ran from our side of the street, on Stanolind, all the way over to Abilene.
- So it ran from Midland to Abilene and the other part ran from Midland to Del Rio and I sued and took that to the Texas Supreme Court and they through all that out. And that really is the lawsuit that set up the basis for all redistricting in Texas today on House suits.
- PC: Did you have some conversations with Speaker Mutscher about that process while that was taking place? Do you recall any conversations with him?
- TC: Not really, I do not recall anything with the Speaker Mutscher, I visited with committee chairman at that time and of course we talked about what was legal and not legal.
- And I believed from reading the constitution and some Waggoner Carr, who also at one time was speaker and then had been Attorney General, I [remember] reading some statements he had made that it was illegal to split county lines.
- And we used actually a memo that he had written in court to help us win that lawsuit.
- PC: Well after, of course, Speaker Mutscher there is going to be a succession of speakers. Of course, Rayford Price was in briefly, and then Speaker Clayton and of course then Speaker Lewis ...
- TC: Daniel was in between them.
- PC: Right, and Speaker Daniel too, the late Speaker Daniel. Can you tell me a little bit about your relationship with the some of these Speakers and anything that you noticed about how the actual office of the speakership changed in those first 10 or 15 years?
- TC: Rayford Price is elected when Mutscher resigned and then, of course, he was beat in his own primary. But Rayford really won because the number of Republicans, I don't remember the number, [but] there were 11 or 12 of us as I remember ...
- We voted, as a bloc ... for Rayford and I put that together. We all voted as a bloc for Rayford and he won by one vote.
- And at that point I was close to Rayford and Ed Howard was his best friend and he and I were roommates and office mates in legislative process, so I got to know Rayford really well and of course he wasn't here long.
- Because that was like in April as I remember and then he got beat in the runoff in like June or July so he wasn't speaker long.
- And then when he got beat, Daniel had been trying to get pledge cards ... in case that happened, because he anticipated it, and was elected speaker and I did not have a great relationship with Daniel.
- We got along personally all right. We just had a real difference in philosophy and actually I was one of the few members that never voted for him for speaker.
- Then after that came Billy Clayton and actually I got along great with Clayton. Clayton was the Chairman of the Natural Resources and real involved in water issues.
- I was on that committee and when he got elected speaker, he named me chairman of Natural Resources and I became the first Republican chairman of a House committee in over 100 years.
- PC: In what year was that?
- TC: That was '74, '76, I guess, somewhere in that period.
- PC: And from that time on with Speaker Clayton as well as Speaker Lewis, you served in various positions and different committees or responsibility in chairs and vice-chairs, is that correct?
- TC: Right. I served through whole Clayton era as the chairman of Natural Resources. And then when Lewis was elected speaker ...
- I became chairman of Natural Resources and then I became chairman of Public Health. And when Laney was elected speaker, I moved over and became chairman of Ways and Means.
- PC: In the last few Speakers that were mentioned, of course, with Speaker Clayton, Lewis, and Laney and then yourself, each of you are from what we would consider Western Texas and ... generally, west of I-35.
- And in years prior to this most of speakers have been either from Central Texas or Eastern Texas ... [I]s just a coincidence or do you see some type of meaning in that speakers from this particular area of the state for the last 20-25 years ...
- TC: I think a lot of that had to do with the seniority at the time they had served. We had a turnover in the East Texas side and West Texas members had kind of stayed there and have established a base.
- And Gib really was a real prominent force in the Clayton days and so he kind of stepped up into it and there were problems at the end of Clayton's term and then Laney ran against actually another West Texan ...
- PC: In observing the number of Speakers that you have served with over the years, what particular areas of interest, or really leadership qualities, have these Speakers exhibited that you learned from?
- TC:... I think each of these Speakers were different and each had different interests. You know Clayton was really into the water in the state and actually Lewis ended up in part of that too but Billy really was in through the natural resources aspect.
- Lewis was very interested also in water and the environment and in the Parks and Wildlife aspect of it. And Laney was interested in the rural part of the state, did a lot of stuff in that area.
- So we had different ideas and different movements and you had to go through different eras where Texas was.
- We had shortages under some speakers as far as financially and then all of a sudden in the '90s we had huge amounts of surplus and it allowed a lot of programs to expand. So all of these different things worked into how the Speakers did their programs and what programs they were able to pass.
- PC: Did you also notice during these years an evolution in the staff and the administration of the speaker's office itself? Was there growth? Were there changes in responsibility? Was there expansion of their influence and respect?
- TC: Well, sure. When I first started, got elected, we got $400 a month for total staff. That was it, and that included stamps, stationary everything you got.
- And obviously as the state grew, our districts grew in size, we got additional staff dollars, we got additional mailing dollars, and you know everything like this.
- Well, so did the speaker's office. The speaker's office grew at the same point and the speaker's office became over more and more parts of the House operations.
- Where we used to have separate House operations ... [but] House administration ... and the payroll office, all that became under the Speaker's office.
- PC: . . . [T]he speaker, of course, has to deal with the governor and the lieutenant governor ... before you came into the office did you see a change in the relationship that the speaker had with the individuals who occupied those two offices?
- TC: Well, I think they have always worked together and that is part of the process but I also believe that we've seen a stronger relationship in the last couple between Laney and President Bush, or then-Governor Bush, and myself, and Governor Perry.
- I think we have seen more of a working together and a binding. The reason for a lot of that is we have seen a switch in philosophical and party leadership on the floor, so I think that made a big difference.
- PC: What about in working specifically with the lieutenant governor's office and the governor's office and your staff?
- Do you have a particular approach that when you are dealing with the Senate, because you dealing more with obviously legislative issues than with governor's office with more of the executive assignments, how do you distinguish, how do you balance, how do you really view those two relationships?
- TC: We have a great relationship and the governor and lieutenant governor and I have breakfast once a week and we work together and did a lot of joint press stuff and we worked on issues before they come out in the House floor the Senate floor.
- I think we have a good close relationship. Our staffs communicate a lot, as you know in the last session of the legislature, we changed some things where the lieutenant governor used to be the head of the LBB and he headed the legislative council.
- Now it is the lieutenant governor and the speaker who co-chairs those things, so we have more of the dual responsibility than we've had in the past.
- And there is a real advantage of the Speaker over the governor or lieutenant governor in that they are both elected - the governor, lieutenant governor - statewide.
- The speaker is elected in an individual district. And sometimes when you look at an issue out there, the speaker has the advantage of saying, "Well this is how my district feels on it."
- And, yes, I have 149 other members out there but it is a real difference than what the state as a whole is looking at.
- PC: So since you are representative of a one particular district but yet as speaker you are, in effect, are a statewide official. Or do you consider yourself a statewide official?
- TC: Well I do not consider myself as a statewide official but a lot of people do and I think the speaker has evolved through the years to become looked at as more of a statewide official.
- In most of the articles you see about the Legislature and things happening during the Legislative sessions, you'll have what the governor has to say to and the lieutenant governor and the speaker.
- So you will see the three in there and almost all of the old publications you looked at during the sessions have the three of us in there.
- But I still have a priority that I have to take care of my district because that is where I have to go back and run and get re-elected in. And the people in my district still expect me to take care of their individual problems, just like the other 149 members.
- PC: I guess that it is nice because you have this good perspective of being able to look over the last 30 years as a representative.
- Think back when you first came in when Speaker Mutscher was here and even I would say even going up to the Speaker Clayton era.
- There is a considerable amount of difference between what you as a speaker and what you have to do in dealing with, not just the governor, and lieutenant governor, but with the other state agencies and the other responsibilities you have. Is that true?
- TC: Absolutely, and there is a lot more open process than there was when I first got elected and I mean it was, again, at first there was totally one party control.
- There were a very small number of Republicans in office at that point and that did not matter whether it was a Republican or Democrat, you would just have this domineering force out there.
- Now you have got a... much closer split in the makeup of the House and in the Senate, and I think we have evolved into a more open form of government.
- The agencies were over here more and we used to have an appropriations bill, it used to be almost done in silence in somebody's back room.
- Now we have hearings everyday during the whole process, the legislative process, so it has really opened up a lot in that the lieutenant governor has the Senate having hearings, and we have hearings, and we have a lot of joint hearings.
- It is really a different type body than it was when I was when first got elected - much more open and really more bipartisan and friendlier, not only for the members, but I think for the people in the state that come down and try to participate in the process.
- PC: ... [F]rom the lobby side there has been tremendous growth in the number of people who are professionals, who are representing different issues and causes in organizations during those years, and how do you see that role has evolved and how much influence are they playing now with the Legislature?
- TC: Well, there is a tremendous amount of influence out there. In the early days, they used to tell you that when your lobbyist came to see you, to make sure you got the other side of the issue and that is true.
- But when I first got elected, probably there were eight to ten really strong lobbyists out there. Now there are hundreds, and where there used to be one, maybe you worked for one group and you were their lobbyist, and now maybe today if you were a lobbyist you would have 20 clients or 30 clients.
- So it is a huge difference and the associations have really gotten stronger like the realtors, the doctors, and all those groups. They are really come into their own and gotten much stronger and realize that they got to participate in the process to get what they need more.
- PC: So along with this growth and this change from all these organizations, how do you see, how this has affected the legislative process?
- You commented about being more open, but is it actually becoming more difficult to tackle so many real difficult issues that you have to face in state government such as public education, health care, or some of the other really big issues?
- TC: I don't think the lobbyists had a negative effect.. . [Y]ou got to realize that if you are lobbying for one side or the other, you got a lot of information, you got to look at and put that together and look at both sides.
- And they really have helped a lot for members that need information on the issue and they will tell you that information. And I think that if you ask the members on the House floor, they will you that if you are a lobbyist you got to tell the true side.
- And you may tell your side and you got to be truthful with the members because if you don't and you turn around later, then they are not going to believe you.
- PC: . . . During your three decades that you have been here, it has become much more urban and suburbanized, but of course we have also seen growth and expansion in representatives from the Republican Party.
- So is there a corollary between this, or what you account for the increase of Republican membership?
- TC: I think, early on the big part was that we went from multimember districts like in Dallas and Houston and Fort Worth - the large counties to single member districts - so back then Dallas County would have "x" number whatever it was and they would run on a ticket and everyone would win.
- And then when we went to single member districts you got this huge flight to the suburban area that is basically Republican and so we started electing people that were Republicans out there and the normal transition has been in the state.
- I think we have seen the conservative Democrat when I grew up, or first started in the Legislature, is now Republican and all this shifted as we saw the districts shift.
- PC: ... [A]s you have pointed out, there were always divisions within the Democratic Party during those years, even though there is a single party domination, there were distinct divisions within the Democratic Party.
- Now that the Republican Party is expanded and has seen is a lot more growth of their representation, do you distinguish, do you detect, some different groups within the Republican Party itself?
- TC: Well you always got different views in any kind of party, and I think the Republicans are pretty much united on the major issues. But you've got members, like I said, that are always is going to differ on different types of things or the way it should be handled.
- And I do not I think the division in the Republican Party is like it was in the Democratic Party because the Democratic Party was the party, so you have a conservative aspect and you have middle-of-the-road aspect, then you have the liberal faction in there.
- But the Republican party today, we got a conservative faction in there and got some that are more conservative than other, but you don't have liberal faction, so you kind of go from the middle-of-the-road to conservative. So I think there is a big difference in that.
- PC: During your term, primarily, as a member of House of Representatives, we talk about Speaker Mutscher and the first redistricting session, but how many redistricting sessions have you actually gone through up through last year?
- TC: Five.
- PC: Five. Okay, and tell us, are each ... different or are each contentious?
- TC: It is. It is the most partisan every ten years in the legislative process and unless you appoint a commission, or introduce something, that is not going to change.
- If we do redistricting this year or we do it next year, we are going to still have it put down along the party lines. And very rarely, do you find a Democrat that votes for a Republican plan, or a Republican who votes for a Democratic plan. So, it is the one issue every 10 years, that is just purely partisan.
- PC: Did you detect any type of movement to try to essentially take it outside the Legislature making decisions, to ... some type of panel or board or appointed group?
- TC: I really don't. There are bills introduced every session of the Legislature to do that, and I do not think that there is any support for that at all.
- PC: Of course, in this session there are a number of key issues that people are talking about. Public education is always one, and financing state government, and health care.
- You . . . have to look and address those issues during the session. But what do you also see looking down on the road that are going to be the key issues in the long term that you are going to have to be dealing with?
- TC: Well, I think the budget is always the major issue. Really all we have to do during legislative sessions is pass the budget and go home. And I know we are going to have 7,000 to 8,000 bills or resolutions this session, but the budget is the main key.
- Public education has been here, I am sure you are aware that the big dispute at the battle of the Alamo was that Mexico refused to set up a public education system in Texas so it has been here forever since we've been around.
- And it still out there as major issue, but we need to solve public education not forever, because it is going to change. Our growth is going to change, our districts sizes are going to change.
- We are getting more Hispanics into the state, so we need more bilingual just for things like this. But we look out and I think we should have some school finance [plan] that lasts 20-25 years.
- If we can do that, then that is a major factor for us. Also workmen's comp is a big issue for us now. In the late '80s, '88, and '89 we had a real problem with it.
- We fixed it, here we are in 2005 and it's broken again. So you look at a lot of these issues and think, oh well we fixed them. But maybe you fixed them for this small period of time then you go out and they are going to come back again.
- PC: . . . Mr. Speaker, if a person came up to you in your community or from anywhere in Texas today and said they were thinking about running for House of Representatives, what kind of advice would you give them?
- TC: Don't do it. [Laughter.] Seriously, actually this happens a lot because I talked to a lot of candidates. I think they have got to be aware of the time factor it takes.
- When I first got elected, it really was a part time job, and it is part time if you look at the job description today, but it takes a lot more time than it did back in the late 1968-69.
- We are down here in interim committees and it takes more time in a district, and more problems, as the economy has grown. I think they need to look at do they have the time.
- Can they afford to serve? I mean, we still are paid $600 a month, so it is not something we can live on, by the time we get everything taken out ... We just cannot do that.
- I'd make more of that and also the campaign side. A lot of members that we have out there, I think, enjoy serving the Legislature. They do a good job, but they do not like the campaign aspect, and unfortunately, for them you have to get elected before you can serve.
- PC: I think you can safely say that every speaker from now on is going to be dealing with what they characterize as a bipartisan atmosphere.
- And Representative Puente, I remember at your nomination a couple of weeks ago . . . told the story that after the redistricting session last time, when he came in and his first visit with you after he a had come back in and that you all had some discussions about redistricting and his concern was how he was going to be treated on this.
- Could you tell a little bit about that story? Is that what you would say is an example of your philosophy on how to deal with members, regardless of their party?
- TC: ... When Puente came in, he felt I was going to take away his chairmanship or give him a lecture about leaving the state.
- But really my idea was let's get back to work and get the process going again and let us finish the session and that is my philosophy.
- I tried to work together with the members. I have never asked a chairman of the committee to kick the bill out or vote for a bill that they did not want to vote for and that is my philosophy.
- I think the committee system works well in the legislative process and we have today. In fact, I think it works extremely well and we need to just let it work and I try to let the members do that.
- PC: So as speaker . . . would you say that you try to delegate responsibility to your committee chairs or do you have some other people that you rely on as who you might call key lieutenants or key supporters?
- TC: I am probably not the right person to ask, but I really do not have key lieutenants out there working on the floor like a lot other Speakers have been.
- I was a key lieutenant for some of those and I have more of a letting the members work process. We count votes like everybody else does. And we've got a bill out there we want to know whether it is going to pass or fail or where we are or what our weaknesses are.
- And I think if you are the speaker, you are there to be kind of a director of sorts and to make sure the process continues to move. But I do not think there going to be a dictorial type process.
- PC: Whenever you decide to leave office after being a speaker for however many of number of terms that is, how do you want to be remembered? How would you like to see your name in the history books as speaker?
- TC: Oh, obviously, I guess, I'll be looked at as the first Republican in 130 plus years and so we had a change in philosophy and change in the way we did a lot of things on the floor and a change in the type of bills that passed.
- And I hope that people look back and say, well, he was fair and let the process work and that is the key to me.