Reuben Senterfitt Interview, Tape #1 [side B]
- MP: ... .So you were talking about M.D. Anderson and .... you had introduced that bill in the legislative session.
- RS: . . . Well, another member, Arthur Cato, and I introduced the bill. "Coke" Stephenson's first wife had cancer and died. I don't know what she died of.
- Kind of skips me right now but... she died while he was lieutenant governor or governor, I'm not sure which. I think he was lieutenant governor . ..
- And, we kind of initiated [the M.D. Anderson bill] .... M.D. Anderson had a cancer hospital and it was growing bigger and bigger all the time .. . and M.D. Anderson .... had benefited the hospital some.
- And the thought came around that if you-if it's going to continue, it needed to be state-supported ...
- So we introduced a bill to create the M.D. Anderson State Hospital... and of course, in '41 we were still in that hard time, you know.. . .
- [B]ut some time in the session, Arthur Cato said ... he had more legislation than he could handle, and so he's asked me to- you know ... at that time . .. every member [got] .... what they called a one suspension one bill, during a session.
- And so he said, "We're going to use your suspension." So I used my suspension to take it up, and we passed it. And ... of course, it took some doing to finally get it all worked out and ...
- PC: Right. And by suspension ... you meant suspension of the rules . . .
- RS: Suspension of the rules to take it up out of order ... Because, the speaker was Homer Leonard at that time and he wouldn't recognize any special expenditures because .. .
- You know, at that time we didn't have the pay-as-you go amendment, I think. You just passed bills appropriating money, and . . . if you didn't have enough money to pay for them, you just took a discount... on your voucher.
- PC: . .. Okay. So that was your first legislation, though .. .
- RS: First legislation. PC: ... that you had worked on as a freshman legislator.
- RS: ... Then ... after I came back from the Navy .... benefits for veterans was a big question, you know.
- So I handled the Veterans Landholder Bill, sponsored it through the House and got it passed ...
- I guess it's '47 when we got there ... Bascom Giles, you know.
- PC: .... land commissioner, right.
- RS: .... I didn't brag about it for a long time because the scandals were so bad . .. But now I do kind of. (Laughs)
- PC: . .. [S]o you were one of the sponsors of the Veterans Land Program . . .
- RS: I was the House sponsor of it... Of course it was devised by Bascom Giles, and I think it's been a very good program.
- PC: You do housing now and all other kinds of ... But when you started that out, what did you envision? What was your original idea about the veterans program?
- RS: Well, I just thought it was something fair to do, and it was not nearly as costly. That shows my conservative side again ... [but a land program was] not nearly as costly as .... giving somebody a pension, which would be money gone.
- PC: Right, because it's set up as a loan program.
- RS: ... You know, being conservative reminds me of my ranch out here. You can go out there and you can start feeding your cows.
- And, they will sit there and.... if you don't feed them good enough they going to sit there and starve to death because they are going to wait on you to bring them some more feed. And I think people are a whole lot like that.
- PS: The cattle won't forage for themselves. They will eat grass but they wait for you .
- RS: Absolutely. Absolutely. Our son-in-law runs the ranch out there. And I teased him about that some time ago, and he said, "The cows are lazy." (laughter) "They don't go forage."
- PC: .. . Well, let me follow up just a second on the Veterans Land Board and the veterans program ... [T]wo things I wanted to ask you about it.
- The way it was set up, the state actually purchased the land on behalf of the veteran - correct - and then the veteran contracted to obtain the land after that .. . [I]s that how you originally conceived the bill?
- RS: No, uh-uh.
- PC: Did you have a different idea? RS: The veteran had to go out and look for his ...
- PC: Veteran's gotta find the land.
- RS: Yeah I don't know whether the state ever had a program where they bought the land ahead of time or not, I don't know.
- The only thing I ever seen was where .. . he had to get out and look for it, I think.
- PC: Correct. That's right. Well, when you were ... drafting and doing the hearings on the bill and passing it, did you ever have anything in your wildest imagination that would lead you to think that this system could become corrupt or abused as what happened back in the '50s?
- RS: Oh, goodness, no! ... I missed that. It was just a complete shock to me.
- PC: . .. [B]ut I'm sure you're glad you saw that it did survive, because all. . .
- RS: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, I mean, I participated in it myself.
- MP: ... Well, can I ask you a little bit about kind of the general political background, the atmosphere I guess, when you were in the legislature.
- [The] thirties and forties are a certain contentious time for the Democratic Party.
- There was a split developing at that point, and there was a group called the regulars, who generally tended to oppose a lot of the New Deal programs, and I was just curious.
- With your conservative philosophy, how did you fit in with that - particularly when you became part of the House leadership?
- How did you relate to the different factions that were developing within the Democratic Party? What was your relationship with them?
- RS: ... The Depression and the war caused kind of a lull in the development of your state government history. I'll just give you some of my feelings about it.
- When I went to the legislature, it was . . . well, just trying to scrap by and save as much as you can.
- Then ... after the war . . . [the] economy starts coming back, and then you started to trying to develop a good system of government.
- I participated in trying to get the Budget Board established and Legislative Council established . . .
- [S]ee, lobbyists are always around to furnish information but you had nobody to check it on your own. So we established those, and it just finally developed where-I'm not against lobbyists. In fact, I'm-I lobbied some.
- But... when you've got five or 6,000 pieces of legislation and a bunch of resolutions in addition to consider, there's no way you can inform yourself on everything so you've got to rely on some information.
- So the Budget Board and the Legislative Council help members find their own independent source of information if they had some question about it. Lobbyists serve a very good purpose, in my opinion.
- Your labor unions have them, your teachers have them. Your business people have them ...
- [But] you know, I'm so opposed to..., the system we have now of financing politicians ... [Y]ou're not going to ever keep money out of politics.
- And, my idea of a way . . . to solve it, is to have all candidates declare exactly where the money comes from, make it instantly available, and let the people judge accordingly:
- if you've got too much from business, if you've got too much from labor, or you got too much from anybody. . . .
- Everything you do in life is going to have some impact on your thinking and your philosophy and of course your take.
- If you're a lawyer, or if you're a teacher or if you're a farmer or if you're a rancher, you are going to be an interest created that you can't get rid of. . .
- That's the way it should be, I think. I've had some problem with redistricting. The politicians try to do redistricts so that they'll be safe, so what you create is what you see now. ...
- [T]hey got it where they ... don't have to worry about getting reelected, and they stay on and on. Both sides. . .. [B]ut anyway, they're not going to adopt my philosophy.
- MP: Actually that came up during the early part of your term. There was a battle over redistricting, right? I think it was rural versus urban areas, wasn't it?
- RS: Oh, we bragged about the country boys in charge now, (laughter) you know, and like ... but the court passed a one man, one vote deal.
- I don't remember when it was they passed it. They held that you had to get it on one man, one vote.
- So, when I was speaker the first time, it was the first time Texas had to redistrict..... .
- And, so I was speaker and, I just said, "We got to get this job done." And so you can imagine. Now, they think they have trouble now?
- What if you had it when I first did, and you had never had any redistricting? The only . . . thing they ever did in the Texas legislature was to add a few members or something . . . until they got that maximum number of 150.
- So I had a real tough fight. And .... since I told you all I was a reluctant politician .... I told the committee .... "Don't pay any attention to me, I'm not going to run again anyway."
- And, so they combined me with A.W. Moursand. They went.... all around the state and had these counties left right in the middle ...
- And, then some time later they had about 15 candidates for speaker. And ...
- PC: So this was your second term as speaker then.
- RS: No, . . . first term ... and . . . they got so much dissension. I remember one remark Sam Hanna made. He was a member from Dallas, and he said, "Everybody that's not running for speaker, please meet me in the phone booth outside."
- So ... all of them but one finally decided, "Well, let's make Senterfitt -just keep him for a second term."
- MP: .... Which was unusual at that time. I mean, no one had .... well, Coke Stevenson was the only other person who had ...
- RS: Coke Stephenson, that was way back in the thirties. So, I had the problem with A.W. Moursand ...
- PC: ... They wanted you to be speaker again but you also had to run for reelection.
- RS: (Laughs) So .... they got together and .... they all got out and supported me except Bill Daniel, and he continued to fight on. And A.W. [came] up to me one day and he said, "I've just been here one term and it's not my big deal."
- He said, "I'll.... step out of the way." So ... he did. So I came back a second term.
- PC: That is interesting. So why do you .... think he just bowed out. . . did other people talk to him or-people wanted to see you back as speaker?
- RS: A.W. and I'd been good friends, even though he's a Lyndon Johnson supporter and .. . I'm a Coke Stephens supporter.
- He's effective in the Senate. He owns this bank right down here . . . but we were close friends ... he's dead now.
- PC: Right, he passed away last year.
- RS: Uh-huh. But anyway, I didn't have to pay him.
- MP: That's good. Well, Homer Leonard was the speaker you first worked under . . . And I was curious how you as someone who later became speaker - how you would, in retrospect, evaluate his performance as speaker.
- Did he influence you in any way when you took the office, or did any of the other Speakers you worked under?
- RS: ... Homer Leonard was my good friend and he was humorous. I don't think he was real ambitious but.... everybody liked him and he was friendly and he ... .
- had a quick sense of humor and didn't-oh, accept the term of speaker, but I want to mention one other thing.
- The other day I picked up a book that was written by Sam Kinch and Stuart Long and they said that Bill Daniel withdrew because he was thrown from a horse and was too severely injured to continue his race ...
- Well, this is a story I have not told but once or twice in my life. Price Daniel had been speaker, attorney general, had been elected [to the] United States Senate.. ..
- and his brother was running against me for second term as speaker . . .
- Anyway, one day I just decided that. . .when you face that kind of power you might have trouble and I just wanted to know whether he was really . . . trouble or not. Well, I thought I-you know, it was a pledge system? ... [ T]hey called your pledge cards.
- PC: So you actually had cards that you distributed.
- RS: Yeah ... So one day I just ... went down to Price Daniel's office. He was still attorney general, been elected to the United States Senate.
- Jim Lindsey called me and said could he talk to me. So I went down there. And I walked in and I said, "What's this about?"
- And he said, "I would like to get George Hinson to come, and you get your cards out and Bill'll get his cards out and whoever's got the most is to throw it - let them get out....
- Well, I said, "I'm not going to let George Hinson count a thing I got," because he was Bill Daniel's campaign manager ... And, I said, "I'll-well, I'll tell you what I'll do.
- All right... I'll let you do it. You can take my cards and you can take Bill's cards, and if there's any conflict, you can call them and ask them who they're going to support. And, we'll let that decide it." ...
- Price said, "I can't do that." So I said, "Okay. End of conversation?" "Yeah." So, I said, "Price, I'm going to go back up to the capitol press ... you can go with me if you want to.
- But I'm going to tell them just as nearly as I can exactly what our conversation was." He said, "Wait just a minute." And he went in and he called Bill, and Bill withdrew from the speaker's race.
- PC: Did you hear the conversation, between them?
- RS: No. I did not hear it because ... he went into private room, but he came back and he said, "Look. Bill will send a telegram withdrawing." Now that's the true story and it's not what the daily press wrote ... I have a lot of problem with the press . .
- PC: Yeah, that's good to know ... with the capitol press in Austin?
- RS: Yeah.
- PC: Okay. What were some of the problems? What were some things that happened with the press?
- RS: To me? . .. Oh, I think they treated me real kindly until the last. And then . .. they found some old ugly pictures of me. I wasn't very good-looking anyway, really.
- PC: So this is when you were speaker, right, in your second .. .
- RS: No,... [t]his was when I was beginning, filing in over the governor's race.
- MP: ... In '56.
- RS: ... And I had so many nice things, editorials and things like that. People were awful good. And then when I mentioned the governor's race, the whole world came down, it seemed, (laughter)
- PC: . . . [B]ecause that was really ... the first time you had looked at or participated in a statewide election, correct?
- RS: That's right. PC: Or as a statewide candidate. It's a big jump going ... .even from house speaker going to the governor.
- RS: See,... I never did run but one race, and that was the first time .. . [T]hey put my name on, some way, the second time.
- Then the third time I just wrote out a statement of quitting the legislature. .. . [M]y main big love was practicing law . ..
- And, Judge Raymond Gray, who was running for Harrison county attorney .. . came up on the floor and said, "We hear you might be speaker."
- That'd already been mentioned because, if I go into anything I try to do the job. That's the way I feel about things. So I said, "I can't. I can't just... until I change my mind I don't want to kill the manager."
- So they got out and got the petition up, and .... got the number of signatures and put my name on the ballot... So I never did run but one race, and that was when we first came to the legislature, so ... .
- MP: ... [Y]ou know, while you were just a member of the legislature and you were seeing the process, was there something that you saw that made you interested in eventually becoming speaker, and did you see the office of speaker evolving during the time that you were just a state rep?
- Did you see any changes? ... [I]n other words, was it different from the time Homer Leonard was the Speaker to when you actually took the office? Had something happened to that office?
- RS: I remember the state government began to grow, and you had no involvement, you know, all the time.
- And then they got involved in this - it's a real interesting story about the educational system ... [T]hat Gilmer-Aiken thing came along.
- We had the worst educational system .... that you could possibly have . . .
- Claud Gilmer was Speaker at the time and he was, Gilmer and Aiken, the one that worked out the Houston Program which is in effect today of course.
- And .... L.A. Woods had all the county superintendents in Texas behind him because he was . .. just a complete political machine. Whoever patted him on the back always got the money.
- And, Gilmer-Aiken changed all of it and had a ... decent formula for the minimum foundation issue. They're getting in a mess again about education . . . you know, with this Robin Hood thing, which I think is terrible.
- PC: Well, tell me, because you represented a rural area .... when Gilmer-Aiken was being passed ... did you get a lot of pressure from your county school superintendents to oppose the bill?
- RS: No, they didn't - they didn't even start... But.... Claud Gilmer was speaker .. . Gilmer-Aiken was served, and there'd always been a fight between the L.A. Wood group and the new deal.
- And Claud Gilmer said, "I know that you're thinking about. .. running for speaker." ... [H]e said, "Why don't you . . . take the gavel.. . and you won't have to get involved in this scuffle?" . . .
- And, so I took the gavel and was whaling away and took the vote and it tied. (Laughs)
- PC: He thought he was getting you off the hook and you had that tie vote ....
- RS: (Laughs) It wasn't over the passage of it but it. . . [was] an amendment... So, I broke the tie but - broke it in favor of Gilmer-Aiken. Caught hell from my superintendent.
- PC: What was the amendment on? Do you remember?
- RS: I don't even remember.
- MP: ... As I was asking, you know ... you were saying the state government was becoming more complex, so I imagine the Speaker's office evolved to keep up with that, right?
- RS: Uh-huh.
- MP: Okay? And how was it different by the time you got there . . .
- RS: Well.... the agenda. When I first started you just came down and . .. [for] 120 days you tried to do the best you could, you know.
- But now you have all these interim committees and ... there's a lot of planning done . . . [T]he speaker has . . . all these-arrangements for work during the interim.
- Actually, so much of the work now is done during the interim, you know ... instead of waiting for the session.
- And of course the whole fabric of what the government does now changed so rapidly from after the war was over.
- Education and the economy and race relations - all these things just made it imperative that... the government take a bigger role.
- MP: And so .. .by the time you were Speaker, were they already doing a lot of the work in the interim, or .... is that something that you were really involved in?
- RS: Yes, and then . .. they finally got this review committee, what'd we call it? Sunset Commission.
- Of course ... I've been opposed to the way they administered it, but it's a good thing, I think ... [T]he way they do it now is they come in with ... their recommendations and they put it in bill form.
- [W]ell,. .. [t]hen they make all these changes and they put it into legislation and then they introduced it in the legislature.
- The speaker and the lieutenant governor have helped .... it's just like any other legislation ... they get down to where they [are] either going to sunset it, or they're going to change it, and that gives pressure groups an advantage, because they can demand that this be done.
- And sometimes you take a lot of things that are bad, just to be sure that the whole department's not abolished, you know. See what I'm saying? .. .
- And what I think would be a better way . .. if the Sunset Commission would come in with their recommendations of what changes should be made, and let them introduce bills to make those changes, then they could stand on their own, see. But anyway, it's just my personal opinion.
- PC: Well.... you've made this point a couple of times but I just want to clarify this.. .. Of course, you had the advantage of being in the legislature immediately before the war, and in the immediate postwar era.
- But you're saying . . . it's really this immediate postwar era-late '40's and the '50's-that you're seeing a really distinct change in state government and the state legislatures .. .
- RS: Absolutely.
- PC: .... as far as their responsibilities?
- RS: Uh-huh. I had to tell you, my one best accomplishment was the budget system. [W]hen I was speaker the first time, I wanted a fellow named Henry Rampy as chairman . . .
- [A]nd I went to Governor Shivers and I went to Ben Ramsey, the lieutenant governor ... and told them that I was unhappy with the budget system in Texas because they'd come in and they'd introduce legislation for the hospitals and for the courts and for the legislature - every agency.
- And, every interested group would have those bills, and ... time you got through you'd pass one and you'd get to another one and ... it wasn't an even apportionment of the assets that you had to the whole of them across the board.
- PC: And did the Appropriations Committee handle all these different requests at this time?
- RS: They handled them all but they never did combine them, and so they . . . would pass one, and then they would run out of money and they would pass another in a different way ... So I.... told the governor and lieutenant governor that I was going to try to establish a ... budget system for Texas.
- And I got my chairman and we had a press conference to come up with a new precedent and the governor and lieutenant governor finally joined me. So for the first time, in 1951, we had a unified budget for Texas ...
- You know . . . they tried to circumvent that budget system by passing them ahead of time, so I got the rules changed so that... no single-shot deal could be passed before the main budget was passed. And, as far as I know, it's still working.