Turtles: An Interview with Mark Volman [Side A]

[Interview Transcript from the book "Psychedelic Psounds"] THE TURTLES: HAPPY TOGETHERThe origins of the Turtles began in 1963 as the Nightriders which was a surf band from Westchester High School in Los Angeles. Group later changed its name to the Crossfires and won several Battle of the Bands' contests. Local DJ Reb Foster became their manager and recorded group on Capco Records, but when British Invasion hit they changed their musical style and eventually their name to the Turtles (Reb Foster had originally suggested the Tyrtles after seeing the Byrds) when they are signed by White Whale Records. The original members of the Turtles were: Howard KayIan (vocals); Mark Volman (vocals); Al Nichol (guitar, piano, and vocals); Jim Tucker (guitar); Chuck Portz (bass); Don Murray (drums).From 1965 to 1970 the Turtles experienced numerous hit singles and personnel changes. 1'It Ain't Me Babe," a fine cover of Dylan's hit, reached #8 in September 1965. "Let Me Be" (chosen over P.F. Sloan's offer to record "Eve of Destruction") reached #20 and "You Baby" peaked at #29. Murray quit in 1966 and was replaced by John Barbata (later to play for Jefferson Airplane) and Portz quit shortly thereafter with original replacement being Chip Douglas (later to be Monkees' producer) and then Jim Pons (ex-Leaves bassist of "Hey Joe" fame). Despite the personnel changes, the Turtles resoundingly resurfaced in March 1967 with "Happy Together" which was #1 for three weeks. Subsequent hits included "She'd Rather Be With Me" (#3), "You Know What I Mean" (#12), "She's My Girl" (#14), "Elenore" (#6), and "You Showed Me" (#6).The Turtles toured constantly and appeared on numerous TV shows. Despite their image, which was essentially viewed as a clean-cut group, many of their songs had psychedelic references. An example of the contrast between the Turtles and their oxymoronic image can be seen when Tricia Nixon invited the band to play at the White House---only to have rumors later circulated that KayIan and Volman snorted cocaine off Abraham Lincoln's desk!The hits begin to disappear by late 1969. When the Turtles refused to release the Shell Shock LP and took the tapes with them, a bitter lawsuit with White Whale Records ensued in 1970 which lasted for several years and essentially meant the end of the band.Volman and KayIan, showing their uncanny musical ability to adapt, went on to record and tour during the 7Os with Frank Zappa's Mothers, Marc Bolan's T. Rex, and on their own as Flo and Eddie. They also did session work with such artists as Blondie and Alice Cooper.Volman and KayIan began performing as the Turtles again during the 80s which they have done with considerable success for the Lovin' Feelings concert tour that featured various 60s groups. Rhino Records has also released the entire Turtles catalogue.The following interview was conducted with Mark Volman on 9/27/1986.

AV: Can you briefly explain how you got started in music? I believe you initially started out as a surf band from Ingleside, California called the Nightriders and later the Crossfires.MV: Everybody in the group learned to play independently, as well as studying music a little bit in junior high school. Howard KayIan and Al Nichol, who was the lead guitar player at that time, already had this little band going in 1963 called The Nightriders. I saw the band at a high school dance and it was so exciting I asked Howard if I could join the band. They gave me a job carrying gear. Later on I got to sing on three songs. It was a strong surf band which played the best surf music in our area which was the west side of Los Angeles. I worked six months with them until my dad insisted they pay me as much money as the rest of them even though I wasn't playing an instrument. So they got me an alto saxophone and Howard began playing tenor sax. Eventually, we began playing more songs with vocals and and we started singing a lot more. There also was an upswing from England with the Beatles.The Rolling Stones and other groups were getting very popular. By this time we were called the Crossf ires and still playing in L.A. around the end of 1964. We had two guys who were going to college while me and Howard were still in high school. The guys in college were beginning to realize they couldn't earn a good living playing in a high school band since there was little work except on weekends. We were about to break up the band after playing for about a year as a house band in a club called the Revelaire Club which we had won in the battle of the bands. This club had the Righteous Brothers, Sonny & Cher, the Coasters, the Drifters, and maybe twenty to twenty-five other acts who came through that we backed up. You would have to learn their songs and immediately play it that night. A lot of times you wouldn't get a rehearsal much like the way Chuck Berry works even to this day: showing up and having a band who knows his stuff. He doesn't even have to go down until the minute he's going to play.We were literally going to break up with the band handing in its resignation as the Crossfires when these two fellows came to the Revelaire Club to hear the band. They heard us singing and liked the sound of the bands harmony doing the Byrds' songs. At that time we were doing "The Bells are Ringing," "Mr. Tamborine Man," and "All I Really Want To Do." They said why don't you work up some original tunes and see if you can find a couple of songs we can record. We said we would give it one more shot.We had done a bunch of recordings as the Crossfires besides "One Potato, Two Potato" which was released as a single on Lucky Token Records. We had released a record called "Fiberglass Jungle" and "Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde" on a label called Capco Records and had gone on TV and everything. We had had a little bit of California success with this band, but never really anything on the radio. So when we got this opportunity to do these three songs it wasn't the first time we had been in a studio. They took us to Hollywood with these tunes to work with an engineer named Bones Howard. Bones became the producer of the first album of the Turtles and, of the three songs we recorded, two of them were written by Howard. "It Ain't Me Babe" was the song Howard had discovered on a Bob Dylan album. It became one of the three songs we recorded. We finished the master tapes and there was still no idea which tune was going to be released as the single. There was also no idea of the name of the label and we were in the middle of picking a name which became the Turtles. We were managed by Reb Foster who was a disc jockey on KRLA. Reb suggested the Turtles might get confused with Beatles, but I think Reb thought the Turtles might be thought of as an English band in 1965 and it could open the door for more air play. We never fought that kind of press. We didn't build up the fact we were from England, but there was a lot of that used by promoters around the United States direct from England because of the LES ending. It had a feeling of being an English band and I think it broke us through on radio a little quicker.

AV: Did the success of "It Ain't Me Babe" overwhelm you?MV: "It Ain't Me Babe" began to happen in outer L.A., but it became a national Top 20 record within three weeks so we were immediately out of L.A. I graduated from high school in February 1965 and was on tour in June with a Top 10 record and on the Dick Clark Show. So we were literally swung out into the world from oblivion and who knew how long it was going to last. Even at that point we never really were thinking how long or will we make it or how big because we were young kids. This was like the beginning of college, I suppose, when you get sent on a tour like that. I look back at it as a beginning of a university education that you couldn't apply at the time. It lasted five years. The whole thing starting with that record and I suppose that is like some person going off to college.Yet those five years really put the spirit of what we're doing today in us. There is no doubt about it, with all the things that happened, as well as the ups and downs. It was like a Dow Jones report. One year we were the biggest group in America and the next we were floundering along through records in the Top 100 that couldn't break into the Top 50. We learned humbleness many times.The Turtles career covered about eight years and lasted from 1966 to 1974, but it really ended in 1970. The band broke up in 1970, but the reason I carry it on to l974 is because of the litigation that officially kept the Turtles' business alive that much longer. So during that entire eight year span there wasn't one instance we weren't in some form of litigation; whether it was from seven managers over a five year period or a record company that had been investigated and found to have had funds inexplicably lost amounting to $160,000 over a six month period of time. So began the illustrious education of the difference between music and music business.AV: That seems like a common story.MV: At that point, to say what happened then and for the next five years, began a period of highs and lows that reflects our hit records. When the records went up it was a high period; when the records weren't selling it became a period of deciding what we needed to do or if we should stay together. We lost every time. As records stopped selling we lost members of the band who believed that period of our lives was over as a rock band. That was Don Murray and Chuck Portz, the original drummer and bass player, who left in 1966 after we released a record called "Grim Reaper of Love" which didn't become a big hit for us. They both felt the pressure that our career was at the end and didn't want to battle the odds of coming back. They left only a year after our band had its first success, but we had been together for four years. I think their leaving was really the fact of being burned out by all our high school playing and having had three hit singles and our first LP. We also had two other records that floundered around. We replaced Murray with John Barbata (who later played drums for Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young and Jefferson Starship). Later on we added a new bass player in Jim Pons (ex-Leaves member of "Hey Joe" fame). Jim Pons we pulled away from the Leaves and Johnny Barbata we found playing with a kid named Lee Michaels. Lee Michael's group had a hit called "You Know What I Mean." Lee, Johnny, and Joe Scott Hill, who became the guitarist for Canned Heat, were in a little trio. Johnny came in and auditioned for the Turtles and that day we recorded a record called "Outside Chance." It was not an enormous hit, but it got us in the feeling that we could make good records with Johnny. Then we made "Can I Get To Know You Better" and then we found a record sitting in a pile of demos in one office which is becoming a classic story. One out of twenty songs would make us interested enough to hear a better version of a scratchy demo. The publishers of the song were so excited we liked their song that they flew the kids, who had written the song, in from N.Y. to sing it live for us. The record we picked out was "Happy Together." The kids were Bonner and Gordon. We had known them through a band called the Magicians, but didn't know they had written this tune.

AV: The Turtles name was chosen by your manager Reb Foster. Did he give any reason for selecting the name the Turtles?MV: No. We had thought of a couple of name, but looking back they were silly. He said he had a good name that he thought would work for us. We laughed when we heard his suggestion, but we said we'd think about it. Looking back it fits the era of the time.

AV: How did Reb Foster get you signed to White Whale records?MV: Reb Foster had this club and the two guys were promotion men for two separate record companies. Lee Laseff had worked for Liberty and UA and Ted Feigen for Columbia Records. Lee and Ted were beginning to start a record company and they came to the club that night due to some buddy who told them about us. Consequently, they asked us if we wanted the opportunity to make another record and they put up the money for us to do it.

AV: Many of your hits were actually written by the teams of Barri/ Sloan and later Bonner/Gordon. Did they write songs expressly for the Turtles?MV: Yes. There were some smart people in the world of publishing who owned the publishing rights of these people you're talking about. They were directing the energy of these young songwriters to write for certain artists who were getting on the charts. They were writing songs for us as well as the Lovin' Spoonful and the Grass Roots.

AV: What did you think of the Grass Roots version of theBarri/ Sloan song "Is It Any Wonder?" from their Live and Let Live LP?MV: We did the first version, but I've never heard their version.

AV: Did you know Warren Zevon when he wrote "Outside Chance" for the Turtles?MV: Yes. Warren was a real good friend of mine and Howard. He was in a group at the time, Lyrn~ and Sybil, on White Whale Records. Lynn was the name Warren used and he wrote their songs. They did a record called "Follow Me." We used to hang out with Warren in the early Hollywood days when the Turtles were real popular. Warren was just a real young, striving songwriter of complicated emotions. Warren, Howard, and I did a lot of hanging around Hollywood during the psychedelic period. That was why we recorded "Outside Chance" and "Like the Seasons." We were big fans of him as a songwriter. We pretty much discovered Warren for White Whale. If you ever meet Warren ask him about the famous Rasberry Dance that we used to do.We went through some very interesting days with Warren for about a year. We did a testimony to Warren by putting "Like the Seasons" on the B side of "Happy Together." Warren probably owes both Howard and I a car for the writing royalties off that record alone. That record was on our Golden Hits and a lot of other places. I haven't seem him at all since he started his new career.

AV: The Turtles incorporated some notable musicians. Besides John Barbata and Jim Pons, the Turtles also had the services of drummer John Seiter (Spanky and Our Gang) and guitarist Gary Rowles (Love).MV: That didn't happen until we were playing as Flo and Eddie. We only had one guitarist in the Turtles from beginning to end. He was the only member of the band that went completely from the beginning of the group until the demise and that was Al Nichol. Al began working on a solo career directly after the Turtles and still is involved in music.

AV: Did you have anything to do with selecting Dean Torrence (of Jan & Dean) and his company Kittyhawk Graphics to provide the graphics on your Turtles Golden Hits LP?MV: That was our choice. Dean had done a cover for the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band that we really liked and we went to White Whale to hire Dean. They weren't really aware that Dean Torrence was doing graphics. We had to show them all the stuff he was working on. Dean had created the graphics on some of our ads for Billboard Magazine and yet some of our record people still hadn't seen his work because they were created for the music business. Dean did some fabulous ads for the Turtles. When we did The Greatest Hits Volume I we had Dean do the cover and also The Greatest Hits Volume II.

AV: I remember watching the Dating Game Show one time and I saw a Turtle on there. Who was that?MV: It was the drummer Johnny Barbata. We all went. The girl won a date with the Turtles and the drummer got picked by the girl. We went on this boat fishing with another couple.We did a couple of other interesting shows. We did a TV show called That's Life starring Robert Morris which was one of the first live television play shows and the Turtles were at a club where they met. We also did the Smothers Brothers, Hollywood Palace, and Ed Sullivan. Since we were a real good clean 60s band, we received a tremendous amount of television exposure.AV: That must have helped your sales.MV: I think so, plus we toured a lot. We were on the road an awful lot during that five year period. I think that built up a good strong following which I think has stayed with us. People now know our live show. They know they can count on it being something where they get their money's worth whether we have a hit single out or not. They know it's going to be fun year to year and something they can count on. That's something we built up by being on the road thirty or so years and making people come out when we didn't have hits. During the existence of Flo & Eddie from 1972 to 1983 we were out touring. As the resurgence of the 60s hit big at the end of 1983 the agencies came to us about why don't you go back and use the name Turtles. The agency said it wouldn't really change our show and what we were doing and so we experimented with that possibility. We had been away from the Turtles thirteen years since the break-up of the Turtles and the time Howard and I put it back on the road. It is remarkable how fast the Turtles concept took off. Just this summer alone we set half a dozen records at various shows. It is amazing what has happened to the name, the logo, and the concept; consequently, the merchandizing of the Turtles seems right around the corner. You can say the Beatles can't come back, but the Monkees have brought back a hysteria that nobody really thought possible.When we start concentrating on the good bands of the 60s who were solid musical contributors, not a TV show with actors playing musicians, then people start looking at the history of the people who created the history. People can't believe the Turtles are still singing. Even though we sang with Alice Cooper and John Lennon, we also have recently sung with Bruce Springstein and with Andy Taylor of Duran Duran. So we've picked up fans from various times and places whereupon people think of us as having a historical importance to rock. And not just as contributors, but because we have the ability to articulate a lot of history in rock for those who aren't here to talk about people like Marc Bolan.

AV: Why did the Turtles break up in 1970?MV: At this time we were floundering around after a concept record called Battle of the Bands where we played as ten different bands each of whom had their own musical styles. One of the groups we recorded as were the Crossfires.After that we had a production company called Blimp which was modeled after Apple and was a means to express ourselves by hiring other writers. We signed a couple of acts to our own production company and a songwriter named Judee Sill who went on to record with Electric Lighthouse.We had the idea we could produce ourselves, handle our own business, and our own records. We asked ourselves who would we want to work with of any producer in the world. We all decided we wanted to work with Ray Davies of the Kinks because we were big Kinks' fans. We called Derek Taylor, who is a friend of ours in England, and ask him to put us in touch with Ray which he was able to do. Ray was thrilled to be asked because he had heard of the Turtles and knew of our success in England with "Happy Together" and "She'd Rather Be With Me," which we had done while touring England. We were quite a popular United States surfing-harmony-type California style band. (The English guys we met in those rock bands --- such as Brian Jones and Jimi Hendrix --- were all enormous fans of the Calfornia harmony and surf sound. For example, when we worked with Keith Moon on his album we did "Don't Worry Baby." We also did the Springsteen record "Hungry Heart" as surfing music. It was a Beach Boys-type parody of a Springsteen song which became a hit.) Consequently, we recorded an album with Ray Davies called Turtle Soup. Everything went downhill after that.We started working on an album called Shell Shock. We had repackaged a mishmash of garbage that White Whale put together after we broke up. It had nothing to do with anything we wanted out. White Whale put unfinished masters from 1965 together in order to release them because the band was not going into the studio. We didn't want them to have the Shell Shock LP so we took all the tapes. We lifted them all out of the studios and wouldn't let them have any of our stuff. Several of those songs showed up on some of our later albums. We are going to eventually repackage the Shell Shock record on Rhino Records.Since Howard and I were the basic writers of the album Shell Shock, we found it compatible writing together. We started to record the album, but Howard and I began getting very frustrated at the preposterous idea of our songs having to filter through every member of the band. We became so frustrated we decided we didn't want to be a part of this album. We really felt the easiest way out was to break up the group because all the litigation had really taken its toll on us. The wear and tear of depositions for four years had left a very bitter taste in our mouths. Things had gotten so overbearing that breaking up seemed the easiest way. So we basically broke it up before we had conferred with people what it would mean to do it. The band took it upon themselves that no matter what they said we weren't going to reform anyway. We broke the band up under tremendously cloudy proportions. I mean there were litigations flying all over the place and two weeks after we broke it up Howard and I were in a stupor. I mean a stoned stupor of trying to ignore the reality of the situation. Then we got an offer to join Frank Zappa and go to Europe.Invention which included Frank, Ansley Dunbar, Donnie Preston, and Jeff Simmons. It seemed like a great vacation for us to get out of town, so we did. One of the things that was happening was that we couldn't use our real names. Once we went into litigation we slapped a suit on our record company based on an auditing. When the group split up we sued them for royalties, estimated punitive damages and so forth and they re-sued us because of our non-knowledge or lack of investigating. We signed as a group collectively and individually which is the way groups signed with a record company. When we broke the band up it was collectively and they didn't own the Turtles except individually. If I and Howard made a record they owned us individually for any recording profit. The only way we could get out of it was to sue them and win the lawsuit so we could use our real names on the record. Basically, they owned the names Turtles and Mark Volman for records That's when the litigation began. It took four years to free up our names individually. We couldn't use our real names on the album we did with Frank Zappa. The first LP we did with Frank was called Chunga's Revenge. We only did three or four tracks on that album. That was because he had a bunch of stuff in the recording can and when we came along Frank said "Wow, let's put them on."We sang a few numbers on that album and we're listed as the Phlorescent Leech and Eddie. The two guys were actually road managers with the Turtles. One was very flamboyant and freaky looking while the other was real straight. We named the Phlorescent Leech for the wild one and the other guy Eddie. We jokingly kept saying we'd make an album for them on our own production company which was Blimp. When we joined Frank we needed two names so he could give us credit on Chunga's Revenge. On the credits we're listed as the Phlorescent Leech and Eddie because it was the only way we could get credit. On the next album, which was coming out about four months later after the European trip, Frank asked us to play for a while. We stayed in the Mothers for two more years and did three more albums: Just Another Band From L.A., Fillmore East, and 200 Motels which also was a featured film. I think 200 Motels was always in Frank's mind, but it heightened when we were able to provide him with a pop music band that he had never had before. He had always had this idea to do a satire of an anti-pop band and now he had the ability to mock pop through the faces of a pop band. It became satire on satire. It was really perfect for what Zappa wanted.

AV: Just Another Band From L.A. is a tremendously funny album. Can you discuss some of the songs such as "Billy the Mountain"?MV: "Billy the Mountain" on the album was only twenty-two minutes, but in our show there was another fifteen minutes. Frank wanted it to be a two record set, but Warner Brothers said no way. Side one and two were suppose to be "Billy the Mountain" with sides three and four the stuff that appeared on side two such as "Call Any Vegetable" and "Eddie, Are You Kidding?" They said no. So Frank cut it down to one album with all that material. "Billy the Mountain" we learned over a three or four month period in pieces during rehearsals.

AV: Did everybody write together or did Frank take full credit for "Billy the Mountain"?MV: Frank took full credit. Out of that script came a ludicrous amount of spontaneity and improvisation.

AV: How did Frank come up with the idea for "Billy the Mountain"?MV: Frank just made up a story about a mountain and a tree that lived on his shoulder whereupon they decide to take a vacation. Frank wrote a visual script of "Billy the Mountain" and I have the script at home. I think Frank originally visualized it as an animation and to make a feature like a cartoon. It was fun to do as a live show. I believe it was the first or second live show of "Billy the Mountain" that we recorded at Pauley Pavilion in 1971. We recorded almost every concert we did with Frank live in person.

AV: There is a reference to a phone number 347-8932 in "Call Any Vegetable." When I got the album I tried to call it with the L.A. area code, but I was told the number had been disconnected.MV: Every time Howard and I went somewhere we did a lot of research for our material. We'd go to a town and go through phone books such as at a university. Frank would make sure we would talk to members of the student body so Howard and I could find out a professor's or student's name which would get laughs.

AV: What about "Eddie, Are You Kidding" which was written by yourself, Howard, John Seiter, and Zappa?MV: That all took place at rehearsal. Frank had never seen the commercial for Zachary. It was a clothes manufacturing company in L.A. that makes cheap suits. One day we were explaining to Frank what Zachary was all about. John Seiter was there and there was a big chalk board in the rehearsal hall. Seiter was really funny and between the three of us we told Frank this whole story. Frank used this concept for the lyrics and that's why it was written as a team.

AV: Did they make fun of you at one time? I know you were a little heavier. I think you've lost some weight. Is this the part about the portly size clothes in "Eddie, Are You Kidding"?MV: That was all part of the dialogue on the commercial where if you're portly and irregular you could get fitted. All that stuff was right out of the ad.

AV: I thought those songs from Just Another Band From L.A. are among the best material the Mothers ever did. Incredibly funny.MV: Some of the funniest stuff on that album is about Howard Johnson's and Studebaker Hawke. Those things were created night to night because you test them, people would laugh, and then they became part of the show. I don't know if it started out as a Howard Johnson, and then all the stuff about "Howard Johnson, Howard Johnson" and "Wanna' eat some clams" that carry on the dynamics of humor. Those were things that happened spontaneously. That's why even in 200 Motels, Howard and I get special credit for material, but not as writers which is silly because the special material is about seventy per cent of that.There's a story in 200 Motels about a rock star and the groupie singing a big hit record. I always say to Zappa fanatics who understand or have seen 200 Motels and who know the concept, to listen to 200 Motels and listen to side three. We sing a song called "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy" about going to a club where he meets the groupie at the club. At this point you have to take your white Fillmore East album and there's a song, "Do You Like My New Car." If you insert the entire white album at this point in 200 Motels where the rock star and groupie are going back to the hotel ("Do You Like My New Car") and singing the new big hit record with a ballet, then it ends the white album with us singing "Happy Together" and the groupie finally getting her thing. Unfortunately, in the movie we never got to shoot that. That was all part of the script and it never appeared in the film. So for the Zappa fans the continuation of the movie takes place on an album we recorded a year before the movie was made. And that was supposed to have been in the movie with me dressed as the girl. When we leave the club I'm dressed as a girl and I do this whole thing about the size of your penis. We even have this whole orchestra playing it.

AV: Is it true the Smithsonian wants your bra from the movie?MV: I hope I never see that movie again. It may be okay for collectors, but not for me.

[Interview continues at http://av.cah.utexas.edu/index.php/Vorda:Da_00]