Betty Brink Interview, Part 1 of 2

DT: My name's David Todd. I'm here for the Conservation History Association of Texas. And we're in Fort Worth, Texas, at Betty Brink's home and we have the good chance to visit with her about her work on a variety of issues, especially about Comanche Peak and some of her work on that issue. So I wanted to take this chance to thank you for spending some time.00:02:00 - 2103

BB: Surely, I'm glad to be here.DT: Thank you. I wanted to begin with talking about your childhood and if there might have been parents, teachers, friends who might have first introduced you to environmental issues.00:02:15 - 2103

BB: Well, I grew up in this house that we're filming in and this is my home. And it was quite rural when I was a-a young girl. My grandfather was a fisherman. My father was a fisherman. They were very close to the land and I grew up in that kind of an environment. The-early in the years when I was in school, I had a very good teacher-an English teacher-who taught me to read critically. That was one of my first introductions to good literature and to critical thinking and it was a very small high school and I was quite lucky, I think, to have such a-a forward thinking teacher at that period of time. She encouraged me to go into journalism, which was my desired field at the time but I did what a lot of women of my generation did and got married and began to raise a family. So I put off my journalism career a bit, however, I did finally get back to it. But I think growing up in the-in a rural community where we had gardens-we always had a very large garden-my father, and grandfather, and grandmother, and mother were-did a lot of preservation of this particular area. They were-they were interested in making sure that the creek always had fish and that-they fought some battles to keep encroachment of industry and landfills and that sort of thing away from this area. So, yes, I think you might say I had-I had a good introduction to environmental issues early on.DT: And how did you first get introduced to the nuclear campaigns and perhaps particularly Comanche Peak?00:04:21 - 2103

BB: Well, the nuclear issue-prior to being involved in the-in the Com-Comanche Peak or the nuclear issue as it-as it related to domestic power, we were-my husband and I were living in East Texas. We lived in East Texas for maybe about 20 years. And we were deeply involved in the Civil Rights Movement, and the peace movement, and in the environmental movement there in the-at that time, the environmental movement in East Texas was focused on trying to save the Big Thicket. And the Big Thicket, as-as you know and anyone in Texas knows, is a very priceless jewel of environmental-sort of an environmental and biological crossroads. And there were-there were quite a few people all over the state-Austin lead the battle quite a bit-to save and preserve the Big Thicket. Well, it-it-what we saved there was not the real Big Thicket but there was enough of it preserved that we s-we still have some of that for our kids. That more or less got some of us who were involved, I think, in the peace movement looking at environmental issues a little more closely in our-in our state, at least, it did my husband and my myself when we were in-in East Texas. Later on we moved to Fort Worth and, having been involved in the anti-war movement, which ultimately lead, I think, all of us to become involved in-at-in the nuclear weapons protest and that was sort of a transition to get us to look at nuclear power. We moved to Fort Worth and we were involved-we became involved with some of the folks here who were fighting Comanche Peak.DT: Can you talk a little bit about the connections you see between the peace movement and the environmental movement as they've played out in your life?00:06:36 - 2103

BB: Well, the peace movement, I think, was a-was a defining moment. It-it-and-I will say that-that Civil Rights Movement, of course, was-was a larger defining moment for many of us in the south and for Blacks in particular. But I think that-that when-especially when Martin Luther King took the stand that he did in opposing the war in Vietnam, it-it moved many of us to look at the larger picture of what was happening and what Vietnam really represented as far as justice and-and peace and-and all of the larger issues. And I think that when-when that occurred, many of us who were involved rather narrowly in the Civil Rights Movement looking at local issues in particular, you know, just had a-had a larger vision where he-he opened for many of us a vision that was much broader. So, yes, I think that the-the peace movement was connected and linked not only from the Civil Rights Movement but then on into the anti-nuclear movement that fully developed following, I think, the-the Vietnam War.DT: And the link between the Civil Rights Movement and the environmental movement, is it about environmental justice?00:08:09 - 2103

BB: Well, yes. See, I-I think all of these issues are about justice. And I think they're all so intertwined that you really can't-well-whilst-while they were compartmentalized for a long number of years in this country, I think that-that you'll loo-if you look at the history of all of these movements, that the same people show up in all of them, you know. Eventually, many of us, whatever-wherever we started in whichever-whichever forum we started, that we became connected in those ways. And I think that's an interesting kind of analogy because it-it-to me, the beautiful thing about our environment and-and-and our-and the earth is how we are all interconnected, how everything is interconnected. And so, you know, everything has an impact on something else. So I think that that made us all linked, you know, to-to-to a common purpose and-and often that purpose was developed, you know, I mean, finalized in looking at not just environmental justice, but justice.DT: Thanks for introducing us to how you may have come to the environmental movement. Maybe you can go to the next step and talk about you became involved in the fight against Comanche Peak once you moved...00:09:39 - 2103

BB: Well we moved...DT: ...back to Fort Worth.00:09:40 - 103BB: ...we moved back to Fort Worth and-and I-I had met some of the people at state rallies and at different-in different-different forums when we were involved in the Civil Rights Movement and the peace movement in-in east Texas. So I knew some of the people. When we moved to Fort Worth, we-we became involved again in the liberal Democratic group here, which is still quite small. It was small then but quite small, but vocal, and we heard that TU [Texas Utilities] Electric was building a-a nuclear power plant. And-and we were just beginning to question, you know, the peaceful use of nuclear power, which, I think, for most people of my generation, we were really lead down the garden path on that issue because the early leaders-Eisenhower in particular-were really touting the use of nuclear power as a-as an energy efficient source that, in effect, gave them the opportunity, I think, to continue to develop the bomb. And-and what-what was happening, it was a-it was just pure par-propaganda as far as I'm concerned, and it was-it was politically motivated because what they wanted the American people to do, of course, was accept the nuclear weapons industry. They wanted us to accept nuclear as-as something that-not to be afraid of. So, by introducing it into the-into the communities as a source of safe energy, it-it defused, you know, the fear of-of nuclear for a lot of people. And I bought into that a long time, you know, I don't deny that. But when we were-when we got to-when we came back to Fort Worth we became involved with some people who were fighting the plant.DT: And what year was this?00:11:53 - 2103

BB: This was 1971.DT: Okay.00:11:57 - 2103BB: The plant had been-had just been proposed and it was-they-whether they had even broken ground yet or not, I can't recall. I think that they finally broke ground sometime in the early '70's. But, at any rate, it was called Armadillo Coalition and that-that was a-a-a very scrappy group of people. There weren't very many of us and-but, they were holding rallies, and they were trying to hold meetings, and they were trying to educate people about nuclear power. And they were using many of the methods of the '60's to do so.DT: Can you talk about some of the events, and campaigns, and demonstrations and so on?(misc.)00:12:39 - 2103

BB: Well one of the thing-course, some of the-some of the things that-that-that were successful during the anti-war movement were the-the-the demonstrations, the marches, you know, the calling together of the troops and-if-if you will, and-and I think you could get-you could get many people out for an afternoon of camaraderie and, you know, picketing, where you couldn't get them into a auditorium to hear a long lecture from, you know, some professor on the dangers of nuclear power. So, basically, the-the leaders of the coalition here and I think throughout the country at that time, were using those same tactics that worked well for the-for the anti-war movement to rally people. And some of the things that we did I thought were kind of creative. We had-my granddaughter may not go along with this but we had a-we had a-one demonstration in front of Comanche Peak and the-the-we had a pickup truck with two empty barrels, of course, but these two big barrels had-had the nuclear sign on them and they represented nuclear waste. And we had people there with their children and grandchildren, and my grandkids were sitting on the bed of the truck with the big barrels and-to demonstrate, you know, the dangers to children. And they tell me now that that was-that the bed of that pickup was very hot and their little feet were-and their little were being-they weren't real happy with that. So-but they showed up-they-they-they were photographed by the Star Telegram and so they-that offset their discomfort, I guess, to some degree. But those were the kinds of things that-that they-that we were doing then. It did get publicity. They were good-what, you know, photo shoots for-for the Star Telegram so that sort of thing began to make the papers. And-and, of course, it pulled more people in.DT: Did you have any slogans or chants that you can recall that were hokey?00:15:05 - 2103

BB: Well, I'll have to think about that a little bit because it was at-during the-during the-the war, of course, the-the chants that-that became the most famous were, you know, dealt with LBJ and the war and that sort of thing. But Comanche Peak-the-the issue of Comanche Peak-the big domes, the-the nuclear symbols, those were the kinds of things that were used on the-on the pickets and on the signs and so forth.DT: What sort of media coverage did you typically get?00:15:41 - 2103

BB: Well, the-the media coverage was pretty good in the beginning because, I think, it was-the media was-was a little hungry for something like that, you know, there's-there-the-the Vietnam War had-was-had wi-wound down and was about to end. The-the-there had never been a large, I think, well strong movement in Fort Worth against the war. There had been a few anti-war protestors but there had never been a-a lot of big demonstrations. The Comanche Peak fight drew out a lot more people. It was, perhaps, a little bit more acceptable in Fort Worth. TU Electric was not the friendly neighborhood utility that they liked to present themselves to be. TU Electric was not an easy target but it was a target that people were not very sympathetic to, the monopoly electric company. So I think, in that sense, there was a-a lot more sympathetic-a lot more people who were sympathetic to the-the movement and to the protest. Right-money was a big issue.DT: Could you talk a little bit about some of the different camps of people that were involved in this opposition? I understood that some came from a rate-payer's background, and some from an environmental, or some from an anti-war background.00:17:09 - 2103BB: Right-right.DT: Can you discuss some of that?00:17:10 - 2103

BB: Yeah, I think the rate-payers were probably one of the strongest groups that became involved in-in opposition to Comanche Peak. Certainly, Juanita Ellis' group in Dallas, which we were-were companion group to for a long number of years-her group grew strictly out of a rate-payer opposition group. And the...DT: CASE, is that right?00:17:39 - 2103

BB: CASE, yes-yes. Citizens Associated for Sound Energy, I think-or Safe Energy. It's been a long time to remember all the acronyms and what they stood for. But the-I think the rate-payers were one of the strongest groups. The rate-payers, of course, were not real comfortable, I think, with the tactics of those who had been in the anti-war movement and who-and the peace movement and their tactics to-to these demonstrations as a-as a method of calling attention to the dangers of nuclear power. But, ultimately, the groups began to meld in a-in a real, I think, effective way. Armadillo Coalition more or less evolved into a group called Citizens for Fair Utility Regulation, which none of us were real happy with that moniker but we somehow got stuck with it and I'm not sure the history of that at this-now. But it became CFUR-is what it was called. The Armadillo Coalition s-maintained a presence for a long time but, eventually, the-the-the folks in the Armadillo Coalition became very active in CFUR.

The-the-both groups, CASE and CFUR, used a-a tactic that was effective then and that was that they challenged the licensing of the plan. And that was a-that was an-that was a right that was open to rate-payers that is being closed off in, you know, in many-many ways now be-because of NRC regulations that are trying to close off citizen participation. Because citizen participation challenging the-the licensing of a nuclear plant could-did and could extend its opening date for years. And this is basically what happened here. Because of the two groups, CASE and CFUR, both asking for intervention status in the licensing of the plan and-and we were granted intervention status by the NRC. Then that gave us access to documents. It-it's like-it was like a lawsuit where we-we were able to get documents and the plans for the plant and we were able to ask hard questions because it was-it was-we were-we were-we-we had the access to-to all of their records through discovery. So it was-it's a type of lawsuit that-that allowed us then to get into the inner-inner workings of the plant and also to ask hard questions of TU Electric.DT: Before you get too much into the permit process, I'm still intrigued that there were a couple of other groups that I think were involved. I wonder if you could briefly describe them. I think they'd been active in the fight against Comanche Peak. One was called the Comanche Peak Life Force...00:20:59 - 2103BB: Right.DT: ...and another was, I think a group that's still around, called Texas Citizen Action.00:21:04 - 2103

BB: Right, Texas Citizen Action actually came on the scene a little later but the Comanche Peak Life Force was a-a-grew out of the Armadillo Coalition. They were, as I told-as I said earlier, a lot of the same-a lot of the people involved in different movements will show up again, you know, under a new name for specific purposes. The Comanche Peak Life Force was a group-Mavis Belisle and Jim Schermbeck were, I think, the two crucial leaders of that group who had very good methods of-and had been-had been trained well in their-in their earlier life as anti-war protestors. But they were very dedicated and are still. Both of them are still involved in-in some form of environmental justice issues. But what the-what the Comanche Peak Life Force did, and which created quite a bit of publicity-and bad publicity at that for the plant-they ac-they participated in acts of civil disobedience. And that was a-that's a very new thing for Texas. I mean, acts of civil disobedience were very-at least, for Texas and it's nuclear protest movement-because acts of civil disobedience had been occurring quite frequently in the east at plants that were being built in Vermont and New York but here that was an unheard of kind of tactic.DT: What sort of acts of disobedience would they have?00:22:49 - 2103

BB: They trespassed. They went over the fence. They-they did this on several occasions and they were arrested and they were put into jail in Glen Rose, and they had a-they had a-a-a-it was an-it was a fascinating period with our involvement with the folks of Glen Rose. I was there. I didn't-I didn't participate in-in the-in civil disobedience. I didn't go over the fence but I was there in the role of a sport-support person. And that is basically how we more or less supported each other. CFUR acted in the support role for those who decided to become-to go over the fence and be arrested. So when Schermbeck and-and Mavis and, oh, I think about ten or fifteen others-I'm not sure of the exact number-but there were quite a large number. They filled the jail to overflowing in-in Glen Rose. When they-when they did that then we backed them up by trying to-and-find attorneys and expert witnesses to come in and speak at their trial because they demanded a jury trial. And so that was quite a-an exciting period, if you'd like for me to talk about that a little bit.DT: Oh, yeah, please do.00:24:27 - 2103

BB: The jury trial itself was in the old Glen Rose court house and-let me back up just a bit-the Sheriff who arrested these folks, of course, knew in advance that-what they were going to do. It was-it was well planned so that no one was-would get hurt. The Sheriff allowed them to go ahead and step over the line and then he went in and arrested them. And-and it was sort of pro forma as a matter of fact, and took them to jail. And that got a lot of publicity, of course, in the press. So, within about six weeks, I guess, I c-they made bail and were released. But, within about six weeks they were back in Glen Rose in the old Glen Rose courthouse for a jury trial. And basically their defense was pretty unique and what their defense was-it was self-defense. And what they said was that-what they-what their lawyers argued was that they could break the law in order to save their laws. And they thought that-they saw the threat of nuclear power to be so great that it was a threat to their lives. So therefore, the law didn't apply if they were acting in defense of their lives, which was, I-I thought was an interesting defense. Well, of course, they also were able to bring in some expert witnesses, Dr. Schermbeck-no, I'm sorry, Schermbeck was Jim-I'm sorry-Sternglass, who was a-who was a kind of a maverick scientist from the University of Philadelphia. And he had for-he has for a long number of years been studying the effects of radiation on people living near nuclear plants. And so he was one of the expert witnesses. There were-there was several others, scientists who are outside the mainstream but who have long studied the effects of-of radiation on humans. Well, their testimony-the argument swayed three of the six locals on that-on that jury and we got a hung jury. Which was-it was-was really quite spectacular because Glen00:26:59 - 103Rose had been one of the poorest-it was, I believe, the poorest county-Somervell County, where Glen Rose sits, was the poorest county in the state when Comanche Peak was built. TU Electric sold the residents on the benefits of-of the nuclear plant there strictly on the money that it would bring in in tax revenue. It's now one of the richest, by the way. But, at that point in time, of course, the plant was under construction and when this hung jury came back it was a body blow to TU Electric because, obviously, you know, they hadn't done their PR really well.(misc.)DW: Given that you had rather vocal, outspoken opposition to this, do you feel you were ever in this type of role as a journalist at all? Were you targeted or harassed in any way by the people from inside the nuclear area, or did they have any kind of smear campaign to try and discredit those of you on the outside?00:28:07 - 2103

BB: Yes, and-and-and th-and they-primarily, the-the smear campaigns were-were-at that point, were targeted at Schermbeck and-and Belisle and the-and the groups that were going over the plant-I mean, going over the fence at that plant. There were other-the-they-they-the discredit that they tried to bring against us was to paint these people as, you know, the radical-radical-and people who had-had broken the law and that sort of thing and had a past history of doing this sort of thing in the-in the anti-war movement. And the anti-war movement didn't click in-in Fort Worth early on or very strongly because Fort Worth was a-was a-had Carswell Air Force Base here. Fort Worth was a huge depender on the military for its economy because of-of the bomber plant as we called it for many, many years. But that-that-where-where planes were built and-and so Fort Worth was so dependent on the military that-that people in the anti-war movement were already painted with, you know, a tar brush. And so things were brought up from the-their past and publicized about them. Some of us-and-who were-who were working in the-as-as-on-what I would call on the mainstream side, which was trying to fight the plant by challenging the licensing, were simply discredited as-I remember they used terms like, "These are just emotional housewives and, you know, they know nothing about nuclear power. And they're-they-they're well meaning but they're silly little women," and, you know, it was-there were-there were much-there was much political incorrectness, let me put it that way. They used our-our-the fact that we were females, many of us-myself and Juanita Ellis-as-to discredit us. So they-there were not death threats, that sort of thing didn't happen. They came later, there were some-some of the whistle blowers received death threats. So there were some-there were some-some violent acts committed against some of the whistle blowers later on.DT: Can you talk a little bit about the whistle blowers that were involved in bringing some of the first criticisms of the plant to light?00:30:55 - 2103

BB: Yes, when we-when we first started, we-all we really had were the documents from the-the TU Electric and-and background history on-from other plants and what had happened at other plants, and some guidelines from some of the other groups that had fought. And one of the things that we knew from their history was that we had to have workers who were willing to talk about what was happening inside the plant. We could talk until we were blue in the face about the dangers of nuclear power but we had to prove that some of those dangers were-were going to occur at Comanche Peak because of sloppy construction. We suspected sloppy construction just from-from what we were seeing from their documents but, until we had workers who could actually testify to that, we couldn't-we didn't have really much proof to present to the public. But within I would say, just a-a-a few months of some-some serious publicity about the hearings and about the fact that there were people in the community who were fighting the plant, and both CASE and CFUR and-one of the things we did was we ran ads in the newspaper in the personals. And we said, you know, if there's anyone who wants to talk to us, here's our number. And I didn't know whether we'd get any phone num-phone calls or not but we did. And we got phone calls from at least three whistle blowers early on. And these were folks that-one of them in particular, it was an ex-Navy man who had worked in the-in the Nuclear Submarines Division of the-of the Navy. He had been-he had been in-he'd been on nuclear subs so he understood nuclear power. And he was hired as a project manager by TU Electric for Comanche Peak. Well he had only been out there, I think, he'd been out there about six months when he called us. We talked to him-he was one of the early-early ones to-to call us. He was not opposed to nuclear power. He had no problems with nuclear power. He believed nuclear power could be a safe form of energy but he said this plant was being built-it was-it was a disaster waiting to happen because it was-this construction was so sloppy. So he was one of our first ones. And then about three or four others began to trickle in and then CASE got some and so I think by the time the hearings were in full swing, there must have been at least ten or more whistle blowers.DT: And had the whistle blowers gotten so much pressure from TU to try and prevent them from speaking out?00:34:13 - 2103

BB: They got a lot of pressure from TU to prevent them from speaking out. Several of the whistle blowers were women and they were making really good money. Brown & Root, course, had the contract-Brown & Root Construction Company out of Houston had the contract to build Comanche Peak. They were also building the South Texas Project at the same time. And Brown & Root had no history in-in nuclear construction so that was a-that was a negative going in. But they were paying well and Brown & Root, you know, pays pretty well to maintain a-a-a work force and keep the unions at bay. So they go ahead and pay well but they're not-they're not-they're not the best employer. But what happened was that Brown & Root began to put pressure on-because these whistle blowers worked for Brown & Root, not for TU Electric, so that-Brown & Root was the big bad guy who-whose goons put pressure on some of these people. And the pressure at first was subtle. One woman who had been a-a supervisor and she was-she was an inspector and she had-she was a young woman from a little town near Glen Rose and she'd never made that kind of money in her life. It was-it was a great job. She was making eleven or twelve bucks an hour and that, you know, at that time that was really good money too. But, at any rate, she had the job of supervising some of the other workers and she was also an inspector. So she was looking at the plant through a very critical eye and she was reporting what she saw. And-and what she saw was bad. So-and-but they would not-they would not listen to her, and they discredited her, and they dismissed her-her calls for rebuilding or re-re-piping and so forth. She contacted us and immediately she was-she lost her job as supervisor. She lost her job as inspector and she was put in a small-a little temporary building away from the plant site and given some unimportant paperwork to do. So that was her first-that was the first thing that happened to her. Later on, because she didn't back off-she continued to talk to us-she also continued to find documents to get to us-later on she was beaten up badly in her backyard one night. I mean, very badly, hos-she had to be hospitalized. She never knew who did it and she-but she was very sure that it was a-Brown & Root thugs who-who beat her up. No one ever found the people did it, even though she had a license plate-her husband got a license plate number and so forth. So that-that was the things that happened. They were-there were others who were beaten.DT: And some of them also got death threats? Is that right?00:37:19 - 2103

BB: Yes they did. They got death threats. They got-they-there-there-they were threatened that their children would be taken, that they would lose-it-it was the usual kinds of threats that would-that were designed to be-to terrorize people. It w-they were terrorist tactics used against the whistle blowers. And many of them, while they had job protection under-under the government Whistle Blower Act-excuse me-they had job protection and they couldn't be fired for blowing the whistle, their lives were made so uncomfortable out there and so miserable, and working in a big construction place like that, with so many places where they could have been killed easily, you know, without anyone questioning how or why, many of them finally had to quit.DW: At any time during this battle a lot of time we go places and some times you'll hear that the local folks have a-there's always a legislator or some local representative who can be a hero in that particular area. I'm wondering if there was a state representative or someone who was an ally in this region, any one representing them at the level of government? It seems to be more about acronyms for citizens groups and stuff like that, any one from the political spectrum step in to champion this?00:38:49 - 2103

BB: Yeah. No, not at that time. We now have-one of our-one of the-one of the persons who was a protestor at that time is now state legislator, who is Lon Burnam. But, of course, he was not-he was not near that position at that time. There is-there was no-there-there were no real supporters from the legislative branch or the government branch at that-at that time to-to give us any-any support. Occasionally, there were city c-ac-commissioners in Somervell County who would listen to-to some of the things that the protestors were saying and that we were saying. But we never really got anyone to come over and say, "I'm going to stand with these people." Now, there-there was one judge in Somervell County-the-the County Judge, who finally began to question the safety of Comanche Peak and he was defeated and a new judge was-took his place. And that was-that was the only person who really ever stood up in-in opposition to the plant. But the-the county was so solidly behind the construction of the plant that politicians there were reluctant to say anything negative about it because they could lose their position. The Sheriff had some re-developed some respect for the protestors. He never changed his mind about the need for the plant but there-there became a kind of a-it was an interesting kind of dynamics that developed between the Sheriff and the protestors when this-during the time that they were being-engaging in civil disobedience. And the Sheriff himself became very close to some of those people and they became, you know, friends actually. It was-it was kind of interesting to see the dynamics that developed almost like between the captors and their captives sometimes, you might say, you know.DT: Speaking of the government, could you talk a little about the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and its role in the permit hearings and the process of trying to review the plant?00:41:32 - 2103

BB: Well, the Nuc-the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, of course, is-I don't think there's any-any one with any sense at all, and any-an-an eye to see because they-the NRC is not a promoter of nuclear power. It-it-it-its-its role is not to regulate, although it says it is and it-it makes an effort to regulate, to en-enforce the regulations, but its-its role also is to promote nuclear power, which it does really well. So I think the-the role of the NRC in the early days, when we were initially involved, was a very difficult one for us to break through because they NRC was very much on the side of the plant. Their reasoning is that we don't-that-they will deny that they promote nuclear power. What they will say is that, we make them build the plant safely, we make them follow the regulations, we-that's our job, to make them follow the regulations. But, in fact, we saw that that was a fraud when Comanche Peak was being built because the NRC was allowing-even though they had the evidence from inspections-their own inspectors were bringing them solid evidence that that the plant was being constructed poorly but the NRC was-was-was not stop-they-they-they had the power to either stop it, make them-make them correct all those mistakes, to fine them heavy, hit-hit them with heavy fines so that they would, you know, straighten up, or to bring in-force them to bring in new-new project managers to-to make sure it was built correctly. The NRC, in fact, has a tremendous amount of enforcement power. They just don't use it in the-in the way that-that we saw on the outside that should have been used.DT: And when you would have appealed to the NRC, were your criticisms about the basic design of the plant, or the way it was built, or sort of a combination?00:43:45 - 2103

BB: Well, the basic design and the way it was-and the way that design was being built. There were a l-there were so many things wrong with the design of the plant, that this interview could go on for about two days as I, you know, would-would go into it. But-but the things that were wrong-the big things that were wrong had to do with piping, it had to do with fire insulation. They had fire insulation inside the plant that actually caught fire. And-and s-and they had-they had pipes that were-they had pipe hangers that were so-the welds were so poorly cons-so poorly done that the-the engineering-the engineers themselves-the plant engineers themselves had written that in-in the case of-of any kind of an accident or any kind of a-not-and even a small rumble of an earthquake, that-that these pipes would-would break loose from-from their connections. These were pipes-these were huge pipes-some of them were, you know, eight feet in-in diameter. These pipes were carrying-were carrying nuclear water-hot water and heated water and water with radiation in it. So if those pipes had ever broken loose, of course, it would have flooded the plant and it would have breached the-the integrity of the plant. It would have gotten into the environment. So there were things like that that were huge and that were-were visible.

Now when-when that-when those things finally were resolved and-I won't say they-they were resolved-when those things were finally recognized as-as problems, they were recognized by a-that the-that the licensing process itself, when we had whistle blowers who were willing to come forward and testify that these things were wrong with the plant and they testified in front of-in front of judges from the NRC, and there was one judge who heard them. And this-this was when every thing changed down there. There was this one judge on the NRC panel who said something's wrong here, you know. So this was the one time that we had a breakthrough with the NRC. And that-at that point, that was when the plant was-basically, the NRC ordered TU Electric-based on this one judge's refusal to accept the plant as it currently had been constructed. He ordered the NRC to tell them to go back and redesign it. So about fifteen years into construction-maybe ten years into construction I would say-TU Electric had to go back and redesign that whole plant.DT: This was in the mid '80's I think.00:46:50 - 2103BB: Yeah-yeah.DT: Do you think that the final plant reflected some of the trial and error and other experiences of other plants? From what I can tell, Comanche Peak came on line in '93, long after most other plants had been...00:47:05 - 2103

BB: Yeah, it came on line in, I think, '90, '91 and '93. It came on line-it was-we thought it was going to be the last plant licensed. It-it wasn't. There was one prior to that who had been-ha-that had been under construction longer that finally got its license but Comanche Peak was next to the last plant licensed, I believe, in the st-in the country. It-I think it was the last-it was the first-or the last, I'm sorry-double unit plant licensed in the country. It was probably well over fifteen years in construction when it finally got its license. And they did have to go back and redes-redo all of it, they had to rip all those-all those pipes down and they had to rewet-you know, redo all of that. They had to-they had to redesign some of their waste storage facilities. There-there was tremendous amount of money. I-I know that people think nine billion dollars is the final cost of Comanche Peak but the final cost of Comanche Peak-of course, the final cost we're still-is-is still ongoing, we're still paying for that plant. But the-the final cost was over eleven billion dollars, and we have documents from TU that support that. So it was one of the most expensive plants in the country.DT: What do you think the long-term role of the plant is going to be? I understand with deregulation, the future of some of these nuclear plants which did go so heavily over budget and cost a great deal more to create a kilowatt than a natural gas plant, for example, do you think it's going to survive and live out its useful life or be shut down?00:48:55 - 2103

BB: Well it is surviving. That-that much we know because, of course, the opponents finally lost. I mean, we finally had to accept the fact that-that the plant was licensed and that it was going to be a part of our environment here. CASE, the-the group in Dallas that fought it for a long, long time, had a five year contract with c-with the owners-with TU Electric-to oversee the first five years of the plant. They did do-they did do some good oversight down there and they raised red flags about a number of things that were going wrong. And the first five years of the plant, I think, they had some serious problems and they-they corrected them.

Nothing got out into the environment that we know of although, the last time we did-I, myself, did any monitoring of the plant, they had-they-their outside monitors, where they were monitoring radra-radiation, about half of them were broken. I think-I think the monitoring of ra-radiation monitoring around these plants is a joke because, I think, most of the time the monitors don't work and plus nothing's ever told to the people who live around there. If there is, you know, an-an-there are ra-are-are-are increases in background radiation around the plants, then that-that means that the people should be told. But no one is ever told anything. The-the folks in Glen Rose have no idea how much radiation they're being exposed to. But since-your question, the future of it, I think it's going to be there and I think that TU is going to keep it as a baseload plant for as long as it can. It has about-I guess it has at least thirty more years on its license. Now, what they're going to do with the waste and what they're going to do with the site once they decommission is a very big question. No one has come up with any s-solid plans for that. It's going to be a highly polluted, radiated site once they ha-do close it down when that happens.DT: You mentioned the waste, can you talk a little bit about Sierra Blanca and Yucca Mountain and some of the final repositories for the waste?00:51:26 - 2103

BB: Well, of course, Sierra Blanca was the site designated in west Texas to become a low level repository for waste from-from Texas nuclear plants, as well as nuclear plants in Vermont and, possibly, Massachusetts and New Hampshire-and maybe Connecticut. Anyway, several of the eastern states had-had contracts with Texas to send their low level waste here to Sierra Blanca. And, again, most of the folks who ha-had fought Comanche Peak took up the banner to fight bringing that waste in s-to Sierra Blanca. Sierra Blanca is-is such a-one of those-this is where environmental justice, I think, raised its ugliest head in Texas, was at Sierra Blanca, because it's tr-primarily a Hispanic community. It's a poor community like Glen Rose was, a very small community with very, very little political clout in the state. And so it was a great target, I think, for a nuclear waste dump. However, there was a-there was a-another hero in the movement who lived in Sierra Blanca, and you'll have to help me remember his name, because I'm drawing a blank right here...DT: I guess there's the Lynch family...00:52:50 - 2103

BB: Yes-yes. And-and they were, initially, the ones who began to raise bloody hell about the-the people coming in there to put nuclear waste in that-in that barren stretch of Texas. But, at any rate, that fight went on for a long time. They began to get allies from all over the state and especially Austin. But-and it was finally stopped and-and-and, course, Bush, to his credit we'll have to say, although he was a proponent of it for a long time, finally vetoed the bill. So Sierra Blanca was not t-w-was no longer the target. A lot of money and a lot of time, a lot of energy went into fighting Sierra Blanca. I find I-I see that as a victory for environmentalists.

Yucca Mountain-yeah, I think Yucca Mountain is-is going to be a disaster if that-if that is finally used as a-if-if-if that is finally used as a-as a repository for all of the nuclear waste in the-in the country. Because I think that-I-I think all the government wants to do, at this point, is quickly get all the stuff put somewhere, because it is a-it's-it's a growing disaster and it's a growing embarrassment for the government. But it truly is, I think, a-a-a disaster waiting to happen. I don't know what we're going to do with the stuff. But I think Yucca Mountain-Mountain is a-is the wrong place to put it. And I think the Shoshones and I think the people of Nevada-I think that they're going to ultimately win their fight to stop it.(misc.)DW: There's a fellow with the Nevada State Government Department that opposes Yucca Mountain. I think it's, like, Steve Frishman or something like that?00:54:57 - 2103BB: Yeah, I believe you're right.DW: But, you don't happen to know him.00:55:00 - 2103

BB: No, I-I have-I have talked to him and I have talked to people in Nevada. The DOE has had-at-at one time had an-a series of hearings throughout the country and I testified at some of those hearings when they were here. And people from the Nevada Task Force and from the Nevada opponents and-and representatives from the Shoshone tribe were here testifying and I met several of those people. And-and they were very convincing, and that mountain is not stable enough to-to-to-to take on what the burden of nuclear-of radiation that it's going to have to take on for the centuries and centuries that this stuff is going to be active and alive.DT: Betty, we talked about the opposition to Comanche Peak and to a number of these nuclear facilities, and the campaign has brought together a really diverse group of people and a large number of organizations. And I was wondering if you could talk about how sometimes these groups work together and sometimes they can't manage to agree on the right route and strategy to take, and maybe talk a little bit about the tensions that grew up between CASE and CFUR and some of the Comanche people and the other groups, and how those fault lines appeared and how they were eventually resolved.00:56:31 - 2103

BB: Right-right. Well, at-at-some-sometimes they got almost to be a critical mass. You know, we were wondering if we were going to have our own nuclear explosion within these two-these groups. I think that part of the problem had to do with the backgrounds that all of us brought to-to our positions and-and when we all came together to-to fight a common foe, as we saw it, which was TU Electric and-and Comanche Peak. With CASE, the-the group in Dallas lead by Juanita Ellis, who did a stellar job in the beginning and I can't-you-you can never fault them for the work they did as far as providing documents and-and getting documents and the-the grueling paperwork that goes with this kind of-of effort and-and knocks a lot of people out early on because it's very expensive and it's also just deadly dull. But Juanita had that ability to do that. She had the dedication. And-and she was just one of-she was an ordinary housewife.

It was an interesting dynamics of how she became involved because she got angry about the cost of-of the rates in Dallas. And when she found out that they w-that they were planning to build a nuclear plant-they had a-a hearing before the Dallas City Council. At that time, rates were set and approval of any new construction for the electric company, which was Dallas Power and Light at that time, and we had TU Electric, we had Texas Electric Utilities over here. They had a common-they-they had a common father in TU-Texas Utilities-but they were still separate utilities. And they-they had to each go to their own city council to get approval for either raising rates or building a new plant. Well, the-the Tyler Power and Light, which was also owned by TU, Dallas Power and Light, and T-and Texas Electric Service Company were the three owners of Comanche Peak. They went into partnership to own-to build this one nuclear plant that would service all of their-all of their rate payers. So, in Dallas, there was a hearing to get approval. TU went down to get approval. Juanita Ellis went down with a group that she had become involved with, led by a-a pilot for Continental Airlines [Bob Pomeroy]. This pilot was really the leading foe of Comanche Peak at that time in Dallas, and Juanita Ellis was a member of the group. They spoke against-against the licensing00:59:23- 2103of Comanche Peak. And a lot of it was based on the economics of it. They-the-not enough was known about the economics. It was a vague proposal, which TU Electric is good at doing and was good at doing in those days, because they would go in with all of their experts and all their suits and they would, you know, present their case with lots of charts and-and lots of gobbledygook to a basically ignorant on these issues City Council. And I don't say the City Council. I mean, there'll be some in Dallas who will say that they are but I won't say that they were ignorant but they were ignorant on this issue. They were not experts on-they were not engineers or experts on-on these. So they could dazzle them. And I won't say with what because that, you know, it goes un-unsaid but they could dazzle them with all their figures. And-but, at this particular junction, they had some opposition-citizen opposition. The Continental pilot was very vocal and he spoke that day. There was a-there was an old Socialist in Dallas [Carl Brannan] and I can't remember his name but he was-he spoke against the plant, Juanita Ellis did and several other people. And basically what they were asking Dallas City Council to do was to hold off and look at this more closely and get more information and so forth.

Well the Continental pi-pilot-when-when the question was raised earlier about harassment or things that happened to people, this particular guy really was targeted. And they put out-the Department of Public Safety here began to follow him. He was-he was targeted by the-the DPS. They f-they-their-they had a file on him. It was discovered later-they had a file on everybody who spoke that night. One of the funny things that-that came out in the-in the-later investigation when these files were made public was that this Continental pilot was-one of the-one of the sins against him was that he was seen in the presence of a known Socialist. So anyway there-there were those-that knocked him out early on. TU Electric actually-or the Depart-I'm sorry, the Department of P...End of reel 2103.(misc.)