AB: I had some real good people working with me as- I was chair for two years. And we had some really good people working with us. It's not easy. When you're out begging people for all of your money all the time to keep an organization going, it's very, very difficult. And if we'd have a special lawsuit or something like that come up, you'd have to ask for money for that in addition to your regular money that you needed to- to keep the office going and activities goings. Now, there's- first of all, Texas being the huge state that we are, it's not very convenient for people up in Amarillo or, even in Abilene, to run down to Austin to lobby. And in order for the Sierra Club to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish in the form of getting bills passed and- and monitoring the agencies and such as that, we had to have somebody there locally to do it. And that meant hiring someone there to stay there and maintain that office. And we were very fortunate and are very fortunate to have Ken Kramer. And, then, he had Scott Royder working with him, also. And they- they were very good, and- and we would have to tell people we've got to have the money in order to support their office in Austin and the staff there. Because we can't afford to be missing work and running down to Austin to lobby. So, that was a difficult task to do to take care of. And we just- we were constantly talking about budget, how much are we spending and such as that. And we had a volunteer treasurer at that time, it was hard the first year I was there- I was chair- it was hard to get a hold of her to get her to write checks that needed to pay the bill, and everything was just one big mess. The second year we had another treasurer who was very good about paying the bills. But, he also realized that we were not going to be able to continue as we were financing as it was. And it- so it- one of the last things that I did as chair- or, that was passed while I was chair- was to make it such that Ken Kramer ran the show basically. He was made the Executive Director. And that ga- and we turned the checkbook over to him. So when he had a bill, he could pay for it 00:14:41 - 2101right then. And I think that helped to get things on a better keel. But, at one point, we had a part time person working for us that Ken really did like and really appreciated his work. And he was doing a good job. We didn't have the money to pay the fellow with. And, so, we had a vote whether to keep him on or let him go. And the board voted on it and it was split. And that was the one and only tie vote I had to break. And I had to vote to let the person go because we just flat didn't have the money. And I received letters of complaint from members as well as people from other organizations. And they said, "You can't dissolve the office, we rely too heavily on Ken Kramer." And my response would be, "I know you do. Ken is wonderful. Help us keep him. Send us money." But, of- if- if- you know, whether that ha- they every said anything...00:15:44 - 2101EB: Of course this wasn't Ken that was being- it was a- a lawyer that was working at the time.00:15:48 - 2101AB: Yeah. Working part time.00:15:49 - 2101EB: (talking over AB) It was in order to be able to keep Ken.00:15:51 - 2101AB: Yeah, because we had to keep Ken.00:15:53 - 2101EB: They wanted to keep Dan McNamara also. But, couldn't.00:15:57 - 2101AB: But, it's very trying. And I had people ask me over and over. And the one person who repeatedly asked it was Jerry Acres, who was the conservation chair during that time. He said, "How do you manage to be a chair and work full time at teaching and bring all your teaching stuff home?" Well, it wasn't easy. But, it- it was rewarding, too. So- and I enjoy it. But, two years was enough.DT: How do you think environmental groups, which almost are always strapped for money and short on active members, can deal with such big social problems like those that cause environmental impacts?00:16:46 - 2101