Mary Lou Campbell Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: True. And the sewage plants that you've been involved with, can you give us some examples of how...

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MLC: They're out of compliance a lot. And it's-it's very unfortunate that they're out of compliance. And very recently, out latest-although we urge the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission and also the-the EPA to take stronger enforcement measures than they are sometimes willing to take, although I must say the EPA is-is-is being a little bit more reactive and so is-so is TNRCC. TNRCC is doing a study on the lower-on the Arroyo Colorado right now which I think will be a comprehensive study. At least, they're starting out that way. So we hope so. But if enforcement doesn't follow or if the people who are doing the poll-polluting are the people who are allowed to do the reporting, you know, without oversight, there is a tendency to make your plant look good. And we have found that to be true and we went to-to the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission protesting a permit application to enlarge a plant here on the island, which is the North Plant and they-it was to be enlarged-to be-the cap-the

017 capacity was to be doubled which would, we felt, for two reasons, we were against it. One was the pollution of the bay because they had been out of compliance a lot. And the other one was that we thought, at this time, it was not needed but-and it was being done to enhance further development on the island, on up the island, if you will, past the city limits. And under the rules, that-you're not supposed to-you're supposed to build for need but not to enhance need, if you understand, we're not to encourage, you know, growth but you-if there's-if there's a need there, yes, the permitting process goes forward unless, for some reason, you know, there are reasons why it shouldn't. But when the track record has been that they-that there has been pollution of the bay by the improperly treated-disposing of improperly treated effluent, well then we wanted to talk about that.

But it's very difficult to get into the process with-the permitting process at TNRCC. And so it-you have to-all-you're almost forced to go through legal means. And fortunately here in Texas, we do have a law firm in-in Austin that's a very good environmental law firm and they have helped us a lot. Now that-that-that case is still pending. We still-we still-we're going to have to sue, in other words, to get standing

031 to protest that permit. And we feel that, as citizens, not that-that is not the proper way to go. We feel that we should have standing as residents, to go before the TNRCC council, the three-the three members that are appointed by the governor, that we should go and be able to state our case or before the Executive Director. And-but you first have to have standing. And if you can't get standing, then you can't protest, you see. So that is why we must then hire a lawyer to get a standing, to go to court to get standing so then we can tell our story, which is not exactly an open process of government and it has not only happened to us but it's happened all over Texas with the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission, I am sorry to say. And I think it's well known. I'm not

039 blowing the whistle on anybody. I think anyone who's worked with-with conservation and particularly with water conservation measures, has found that to be true.

DT: Well I understand that you were active in the Democratic Party, as precinct judge and on the State Executive Council for the Texas Democratic Party. And I was wondering if you could talk just a little about that whole question of public access to government and your role and I guess politics' role in environmental regulation and protection of natural resources.

046 MLC: Well I belong to the Democratic Party because I think that-that with all its faults, it-or any-any political party's faults, that the Democratic Party is much more open than any other party that I know about. And-and that the process of-of, you know, it's all about process really. Any-any work that you do with-whether it's with legal work or conservation work or whatever, you have a process that you go through. And if you follow the rules, you should be able to get into the process. And we have found that the Democratic Party is-is interested in being-in having open government for the most part. And that's-that's what we're working toward. And that's why I, you know, that's why I'm a Democrat. And-and-and there has been a much more marked openness-openness toward conservation, although certain, you know, certain Republican presidents have-have signed very good-good conservation bills. But the-this President, Bill Clinton and Al-and Vice President, Al Gore, have, you know, campaigned on an environmental platform. And, for the most part, they have carried it out. There are-are-there have been pressures and they have not done all that they said they would do

061 but yet they have done more than-than has happened at any-any time in the-the recent future about-about conserving the environment. And-and people laugh at Al Gore about the greenhouse effect but it is a fact and it is a scientific fact. And the sooner that we recognize it, I think the sooner that we will be better off and can do more about it. You know, we just celebrated Earth Day in April and it was about earth as a water planet and if we didn't have water on this earth, we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't live here. We couldn't sustain life. And so conserving water and thinking about how you can work toward that is-is very, very important.

DT: I noticed that you had been a Precinct Judge-and since such important things are being played out on the federal and state level by our elected officials, can you explain why people are so reluctant to go to the polls and vote? I understand that turnouts have been very low in recent years.

071 MLC: I-I-I don't know. I wish I knew. If I knew, I could probably help to do something about it. And I think South Texas has a very good history of voting but they are not voting like they used to. And I don't know why that is. I don't know whether people think that vote won't count or whether they get too busy or whether-I-I don't know because certainly there's-in-around any election, there's enough noise being made and with all the different ways we have to communicate now, you would think that everyone would come out and vote because it's-you know, before election whether it's local or national, it's-that's all you see on television, all you hear on your radio. They're, you know, the traveling circuses that go through town and all of that. And so I would-and people are excited, you know, like when the president came to the valley, why people were very excited. And-and turned out in great numbers for him. And when he campaigned before-before the election, why, the airport at McAllen was just full and running over and-and it was 3:00 in the morning before most of us got home

083 but we stayed until he came. You know, his plane was late. And politicians are always late cause somebody else is always wanting to shake their hand. But, you know, I've seen President Carter come to the Valley and that was the same way. People turned out for him. It was wonderful. And-and the-the Valley is primarily Democratic but they are going toward a two-party system. And there are changes being made. And I don't-I don't say that a two-party system is wrong. I think it's good. I think it makes for some checks and balances. We don't yet have that particularly in the local races. There's not-there are very few people run in the local races of the Republican party but on the national-I mean, state and national race-races they are.

DT: I guess the political playing field is where a lot of opposing personalities and perspectives get played out. And I was wondering if you could tell some of your memories of the different participants in these fights over whether it's dredging or the sewage treatment plant or other environmental issues and...

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MLC: Well we-we've been talking about the Laguna Madre but there's also the beach side. And there is a-a national protection, if you will, protection bill for-for beaches and it's-well it started actually in the '70s and has-has-some of the fight is still going on to this day. But-and then, of course, now Texas has coastal management too which they did not have. So that's another-whole 'nother story working on coastal management. Before that though, there was the Coastal Protection Plan which was-which came about in order to protect coastal areas that were not already developed. And so if an area had not already-did not already have infrastructure, than it could be declared within the coastal natural resources and then could be in-being in that would

108 then protect it from further development. In that, for instance, from beyo-there's a road that goes up the island for seven miles past the city limits. And that beyond there, it is in the National Coastal Resources Protection Act. And that means that you can build there but you have to build with your own money that you cannot receive-you can get a loan but you can't receive federally funded flood insurance. And so no one is going to give you a loan if you can't get federally funded flood insurance, if you understand me. And so because, of course, bankers want their-their money, the-the collateral. And that-this is an area prone to flooding and hurricanes. So all over the United States, there are beaches that are being protected by the-by the Coastal Resources Act. And the-we

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had a-a rather large fight about it and-because we felt that it should be right down to the city limits because that road-really that's the only piece of infrastructure that was up there but it was exempted to the end of the road. But the rest of it is-is-is in the-in protection and cannot be developed unless you develop it with your own money. It's basi-virtually what it comes down to the hammer is that you can't get the-the thing with the federally funded flood insurance. So you're not eligible for any of that. And that then is-there's a division on up the island called the Port Mansfield Cut which is a man-made cut in the island and then the other side is the national seashore. And the national seashore was-bill was enacted under Senator Yarborough from Texas. And Senator Yarborough was very strong in getting the national seashore. And that was one of

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his acts when he was-was a Senator from Texas. He also wanted it to come on down into-into South-what is it-now it's called South Padre Island, now it's called North Padre Island up by Corpus and this is South Padre Island. And-but he was unsuccessful in getting that portion in because of the real estate lobby on the island and they felt that someday the island would grow. And they were right about that. And so Senator Yarborough did not get his dream of having that portion in the national seashore. But later on, it did get in the Coastal Resource Act. So it's-it's in the inventory there.

But there have been several times that that has tried to be broken. And the latest was when an insurance company owned some land up there that they had gotten through foreclosure

140 called the American General Insurance Company that was home-based in Houston. And since then it's changed hands and it's been bought by another company. But they were going to develop it with a huge resort up close to Port Mansfield but on the beach side. And we got word of it and actually that's how the Laguna Madre Foundation grew out of that. And we did a lot of lobbying, mostly in Austin, not very much. We didn't particularly lobby in Washington about it but we did in-in Austin and there was quite a fight between Senator [Eddie] Lucio and Senator Carlos Truan because Senator Truan, it was-most of that was his-in his senatorial district. And Senator Lucio had some part in it but Senator Lucio was for the development and Senator Truan was against it. And Senator-ex-well we've always called him Senator Yarborough-Senator Yarborough was-was against the development and he helped us immensely in-in beating back the forces that, you know, the political forces that-things that were going on in the-in the Texas senate

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about allowing this infrastructure to come a-about. And there were several bills introduced that we believe were-were written by the American General lobbyists but they failed. And some of them failed because of Senator Truan filibustered them. And enjoyed it. Would bring his tennis shoes and get up on the floor and-and so he-he and Senator Yarbrough were both our heroes. And they-and they truly remain our heroes to this day. And several times, I got the privilege of going to Austin and-and going to see Senator Yarborough 'cause he was no longer working out of his office but he and Mrs. Yarborough would ask me to their house. And we would have wonderful conversations and he loved to bring out things, you know, from his past and the accommodations that

164 he-com-commendations that he'd gotten. And-and he gave me one of his books and-and autographed it for me and a picture and all. And, you know, I just felt that was such a wonderful thing to-to get to know Senator and Mrs. Yarborough too, 'cause she's a lovely lady. And it was-was fun. And he-they were always-anytime, you know, that you went to Austin and you-you wanted to call him and-and he-he'd want you to come out. Some-and as his health was failing, why you felt sometimes that you didn't go because it was an imposition but-but he was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man and a great, great asset to Texas.

DT: Lucky to have friends like that. Can you tell me about some of the people who have been not so friendly, maybe some of the opposition to some of the conservation initiatives you've had?

175 MLC: Well I think I may have mentioned that the real estate lobby that had kept some of these things from happening that we were working on happening, so I think that's probably been the unfriendliest although some of the other things that happened later on with-with maquilladoras in Mexico and-and there were some of us who weren't from down here actually against the NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement] or the NAFTA as it was proposed. We wanted to see rather than side agreements, we wanted to see environmental safeguards built into the NAFTA and they were not. And it-it's worked out that we were right that, you know, the things that we were afraid would happen, have happened. You know, the side agreements have really not worked. I think we're really making a giant jump

185 here but I agree with you that-that-that they do tie together because we, you know, it's not all friendly and it's not all sweetness and light. A lot of it is-is overcoming disagreeable circumstances by-by working within the system. We always try to work within the system and within the legal system. If we have to resort the courts, we do. But we think we gain much more or I personally at least feel that I-I gain much more by being reasonable and by buying-having all my facts together if I possibly can. You know, learning as much about the situation as I can, trying to be as truthful as I can about not being-sometimes environmentalists are accused of being hysterical. I mean, oh, you know, they're just saying that or it's a scare tactic. Well I don't think it's ever really a scare tactic because when you're dealing with the environment, you don't know what will upset the balance. And the balance is so upset now or we wouldn't have endangered

200 species. So I-I sometimes don't think it's too hysterical but it's better not to use sc-scare tactics. It's better to just use the facts. And get as much knowledge as you can, get as many people who know, you know, who are experts in their field together. And that's what's happening with the dredging of the Lower Laguna Madre. That's, you know, there's an-there a professional panel that's dealing with this and dealing with the environmental impact statement, that we're not doing it. We ask that it be done.

And when-when we were working against what was known as the Playa del Rio Resort which is another resort that was planned below on Boca Chica, very close to the-to the mouth of the river. Why we worked with Texas Parks and Wildlife and-and U.S. Fish and Wildlife and the Environmental Protection Agency and all the agencies that we could

213 find actually that had anything to do with it, in order to beat back that particular development. I will say that-that our delaying tactics and our way of-of, you know, putting so many obstacles in the road eventually paid off because the Savings & Loan industry collapsed. And that was a house of paper. The-the-there was not actually, you know, too much real money in it. There were a lot of loans in it but the-the gentleman who was developing the-planned the development was basing his ability to pay it back on sales, of course, of his development. But he never got to do the development so, of course, there were never any sales. And several Savings & Loans-loan organizations did collapse because of that. And, of course, it went back to the FSLIC and the-and the federal backup there. But eventually and just very, very recently happened, that U.S. Fish and Wildlife and Texas Parks and Wildlife received the-the area that was known-it was about twelve thousand plus acres, known as the-the Playa del Rio development on Boca Chica. And it is now in federally protected hands and will

231 be a wildlife refuge and is. And they're working on a development plan for it. And by a development plan, I mean, they're working on how best to preserve it. And yet, include public access. The beach, of course, is open beach and so it will remain open but they're working on the-on the dune areas and other areas. In fact, dune areas to see what they can do to-to protect it as well as allow the public to use it. And-and so we-we feel really that was a wonderful victory, we feel very good about it.

DT: Congratulations. I think that's wonderful.

238 MLC: It wasn't very long ago either. Just, oh, actually just about two months ago that the-that U.S. Fish and Wildlife finally did-did the last acquisition. And they had to buy it from-from the federal government of, you know, FSLIC, through the Land and Water Conservation Fund which is money set aside to-to purchase fund-U.S. Fish and Wildlife sanctuaries and-and refuges.

DT: Well, I guess that the Boca Chica site is right near the border. I was wondering if you could we talk about some of the international issues you've been interested and involved in. I read that you served as a member of the International Committee of the Sierra Club. And I was wondering what you might be able to say as being major, international, environmental problems?

252 MLC: Well, of course, pollution is one and then around the world, and particularly in undeveloped countries, it's the cutting down of the forest, the pollution in the rivers because of the cutting down of the forest and the runoff. Recently because of the El Nino effect in many cases, they say the El Nino effect, there have been vast forest fires in the rain-in the rain forests also. But there's been much clearing because there's population growth every place you go and people need to eat. And so it was a-land has been cleared for-for grazing and cattle raising and for farming and for big production

262 farming. Much of our farming has gone south. You know, which are the citrus farming in the valley and-and vegetable far-farming has gone south. The big companies have-have moved. And in-in some of the countries like Nigeria and there's-there's been mining of different kinds of-and oil production. And it's been not carried out as environmentally safe as it could be. And-and that happens in Mexico also. That we see that-that enviro-Mexico has environmental laws. That's not to say that they don't but that they have not always been enforced or carried out. And that's true in the South American countries, I mean, the emerging African countries. And there's actually been, you know, people have been persecuted for-for taking up for the indigenous population. And-and the indigenous population, the natives have been moved off their

276 land to-to develop it. And-or are used as labor, very poorly paid labor and child labor and people have been killed. There have been, you know, there are several national, international heroes and same thing has happened in Russia where in the far north in Russia, there's been a lot of oil exploration that has not been carried out in a environmentally sensitive way. And-and much of the radioactive pollution that's gone on up there, the-the sinking of the-of the Russian submarines which, of course, have-without being properly decontaminated from their nuclear-nuclear submarines is what I'm talking about. And there are a lot of-of international environmental heroes actually.And we, you know, we hear about them and learn about them through the international committee. As an-as a committee, we only meet twice a year. And I would say that we are not terribly effective because we, you know, there's-what can we do. But we do

293 give a-a-a presence. We do know about things. We do try to publicize them. Some of our Texas companies have not always been good neighbors when they've gone south. And Freeport McMoRan is one which is (?) in the Austin area. And I-I think that's been real publicized. I don't believe I'll talk about it today but, at least, we have discussed it in an international committee. I am on the international committee because of my knowledge about Mexico and yet, there are so many things going on around the world that it's very hard to get the committee's attention to Mexico. I'm-and I have a terrible time sometimes and I get very unhappy about it. And yet there's so many things going on. We're called, as you know, we're called NGOs, we're non-governmental officials. And so in many places, we're not paid very much attention to. But in Mexico, there is some progress being made. And there are some groups rising up in Mexico. There are no Sierra Club groups in Mexico but there are groups that-that at some-at some point, we might be able to affiliate with. There is a-a Sierra Club group in Can-in Canada that-that is affiliated with the National Sierra Club. And their issues are mainly forestry issues. But, of course, they're so close to the Arctic Circle that they work on some of the Russian issues also.

DT: What sort of reception do you think you get in the domestic realm when you start talking about international issues?

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MLC: People are interested. They're-they're very interested but they think it's so far away that it doesn't really mean much to them. I mean, a lot of people do. Not everyone. There-there are a lot of people who realize that the world is growing so much smaller that what happens in Asia, you know, the-if the banks sneeze in Japan knowing they have a-that-that type of thing, both economically and environmentally. And if we lose-what the effect will be if we lose those rain forests, what would be on the world climate. And many rains are formed over those-over those rain forests. I mean, that, you know, the upsweep of the tropical environment. And will we continue to get drier and drier. We've been in a-we're-we have, you know, climactic changes that are-that go back and forth. We have rainy seasons and dry seasons but the Valley is-is really in a water shortage and it's not going to be helped by rain or hurricane. It's a

340 chronic water shortage. We-we-we will now talk about it and recognize that the river (?) is finite, that we must search for other ways of water. I think we will eventually have to go to a-to desalinization which has its pluses and its minus-minuses environmentally but I think it's probably the only way we can go. I don't think conservation is the answer. It's one of the answers and it's certainly we need to learn it but it is-it is short-term. And if-I think that-I-I (?) Regional Planning Group and I think that the people on there are pragmatic and realize where we are and that if we're looking toward a fifty-year horizon which we're planning under Senate Bill One, why we'll have to-to look at desalinization. I don't think any of the water transfer schemes, you know that water transfer scheme that's an old one from-from the late seventies, early eighties, none of those I think would be practical for us. That-very expensive but beyond that, they're not practical cause those people need their water too. I'll go back to Earth is a water planet, we've got to conserve the water and have the water or we won't,

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you know, we won't live as we live now.(misc.)

DT: Well that's a good place to break. Let's take a short break.

DT: Well let's get started again. I wanted to talk about the groups that actually do a lot of the conservation work in the state. You have been involved, lucky for these groups, have been active with quite a few of them. I noticed that you'd been involved with both the Frontera Audubon Society and the Lower Rio Grande Valley Group of the Sierra Club. Can you describe how the culture of those two very large membership organizations differ and how they might be alike as well?

380 MLC: Well I think, down here, they're very alike because we-we're both activist groups. And we work primarily on habitat, habitat protection. And we're called sometimes in emergency situations where people don't know anybody else to call, and they suddenly think of our names. For instance, if someone is doing some dredging or filling that they don't think is proper or something like that, they'll call Audubon or they'll call Sierra. Actually Si-Audubon has more of a presence in the Valley because they have an office and they have an Executive Director whereas the Lower Rio Grande Valley Group of Sierra Club is done out of-in our pockets, so to speak. We don't have-we're not a professional, organized group as far as that goes, although we think that our work is professional. But we work with Audubon. Sometimes Audubon calls us and says this is more your line, can you do it? Or-so we work together, go back and forth or whoever. Sometimes it's whoever has the time or the interest to go to a meeting or a-or something that's going on hearing, we'll go and represent both groups because

403 we do-we do work together very closely. I think it helps too because Jim Chapman is our Chair of our Lower Rio Grande Valley Sierra Club and Cindy Chapman is the Executive Director of the Frontera Audubon Society. And they're both members of each other's organizations too. So we have a very close relationship there.

DT: Good communication.

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MLC: Yes, but there are people who-who work with-with both groups and then there are some people who just work with Audubon or just work with Sierra. But it truly doesn't make any difference because our goals are the same. We have not done as much in education as Frontera Audubon has. Frontera Audubon has actually put an educational program in some of the schools, in the-in the lower Valley. In a prog-there's a program in Rio Grande City and there's a program in Brownsville so they're anchored at both ends of what is considered to be the lower Valley. And that was put

019 together by a-a-a group of consultants who Cindy worked with. And it's quite a-quite a good educational program. So-and we didn't have any part in that but, for the most part, we do work very closely together. And particularly, as I say, in things that-that we need to turn out people for, that we need to educate people about. And a lot of our work is done simply by giving interviews to interested news people because as anyone who reads the newspaper knows there-the newspapers like conflict. So they like to know both sides of the story. And we're able to-to do that. And we know most of the news people in the valley and so we-we appear on television and radio and-and talk about our interests and try to go to as many hearings, public hearings, as we possibly can cause we do believe in the public process.

DT: While we're on the topic of media, I was curious what sort of reception you feel they give you? If you feel that they are fair? Do they give you enough copy, and so on?

031 MLC: Most of the time, I think that they're very fair. We don't-we don't seem to have any great problem with the media. Sometimes they're interested more in the sound bite as they are nationally it seems like, than in hearing the whole story but we work very hard in trying to get our stories out. And, for the most part, it works out well. Most reporters have inquiring minds. That's why they're reporters and so they want to know the story. And they'll generally listen to you and give you the benefit of at least a line or two. Even in-and particularly if you're a participant in a hearing but oftentimes, they'll know

038 that-what side you're on and they'll come up and ask you afterwards too. So we have a good relationship with the press. I think environmentalists as the rule do. I-I-I have not, you know, traveling around the state or going to Washington or different places where I've gone, I've never felt that the press was not willing to listen. And that's both-you know, (?). And radio, radio is listened to a lot in the Valley cause we're in our cars a lot. And so we-we use the radio too. And they use us.

DT: It's mutual! You've also been active at different levels, not just within different groups. I noticed that you had been active for example with the Lower Rio Grande Valley Group of the Sierra Club but also that you'd served on the Executive Committee of the State Chapter, the Lone Star Chapter of the Sierra Chapter. And I was wondering if you could talk a little about how those two experiences differ and how they might be the same?

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MLC: Well it-they're the same in that you-you-you have a position where you-you hear most of the things that are going on and you have an opportunity to-to make some things happen that you might not if you didn't take that interest of going to the-either to the state group or the-or the-the local group. I had not been involved in the national organization except in the international committee and then there was a weapons committee that I was-but it has since been dissolved and gone into a-more of a water committee and-and I'm not involved in that anymore. But I was in the-on the National Weapons Committee too and that was-that was very interesting. And also I

056 worked with the-it's called the Gulf Coast Regional Conservation Group which is made up of the Gulf Coast states and people from Sierra are delegates to that and then they talk about common interests. And, of course, we have many-we are a Gulf Coast state so that was of interest because the people from Florida on around serve on that.

DT: Do the national and regional groups tend to be more interested in policy regulations, laws and less in the specific permits and precise areas that it's more generic. How would you split the two groups up?

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MLC: As you know, overall their national priorities are set and then the-the chapters and the groups are supposed to work on things-on the national priorities that have to do with their region. For instance, if you're in a forestry region, there's a national priority on forestry or like-of course, you work within whatever is going on with the forestry problems or the forestry region. And-and what the national priority is and, at one time, the national priority was-was NAFTA and-and, you know, and getting good environmental law and labor law into NAFTA. And so we all worked on that together because that touched us down here in the valley very severely and strongly. But some of the things we don't work on as much simply because we don't have as much time and then the state sets priorities also. And then we have our own priorities. So there's-

073 there's a difference and then there's a like thread that runs through too because it's all-works on conservation. And then there's, of course, the very famous Sierra Club saying is that everything in the world touches everything else. So you get involved in a lot of things that-that one wouldn't think that you would be involved with but one thing leads to another. And so it's-it's never without its interest. The-to me, it was-it was satisfying to work on the-on the Lone Star Chapter business and to be an Ex Com [Executive Committee] member because we heard about problems all over the state and sometimes we were able to help with them and sometimes we were (?) projects. And also gave us an opportunity to bring our local problems to the Ex Com and ask for help there. And often we got help. I was never turned down on anything that I, you know, requested like interest or funding or-or to be able to go forward with a lawsuit or an inquiry or to be part of a-part of a lawsuit,

085 even if it didn't involve money to-but to be going as a friend of the court or something like that. And so it's a very good clearinghouse. I enjoyed the work but it's time consuming cause you have to travel to Austin, usually to Austin once a month. And, although they were kind enough to come down here once or twice too.

DT: I guess one of the differences between the local and state levels is that oftentimes there's staff at the state or the levels and it's mostly volunteer run when you get into local groups. And I was struck by how much you've accomplished while you've been working and trying to carry on a career and yet doing all this stuff as a volunteer. And I was wondering if you could talk about how you managed for balance, your very time-consuming hobbies...

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MLC: Sometimes it didn't balance.

DT: ...the conservation work, and the 9 to 5 part of your life?

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MLC: Well all of this happened after my children were grown so I didn't have the housekeeping duties that I might have had. You know, I mean, as far as children to school and back to school and their activities. So-so that was one thing that I was eased up on. So I could work in the evenings or whenever I wanted to on this. And then dealing with the two things that I worked with, public relations and then the art gallery, meshed very well in that I-I was my own boss so I could take time off. And, as far as the art gallery, if I had to go to a meeting, why I simply put a sign on the door and went because I didn't have any employees and it wasn't lucrative enough to have employees probably because I didn't spend enough time with it. But I enjoyed it immensely and I found artists to be, most of the time, very interested in the environment and interested in working, you know, for a clean environment and-and very interesting people to talk

107 with. And so that was-that was a plus. It wasn't a minus to-to what I was doing. Sometimes I could enroll them in certain things also so I did a lot of recruiting but artists are also very busy people too. So it's not always easy to and they get-if they're professional and really that was the only type of artist that I wanted to work with because you-you want to have good work. If you're-if you have an art gallery, you want to-to be able to be proud of the work you-you sell. And so you-you try to get people to-to either consign or you buy work that you think will fit in with what you-what you

114 offer. And I tried to have local work as much as possible and there are many fine artists in the area. In fact, that's why several of us started the art gallery and then it fell back to-everybody went other directions and let-and I was doing it but-which was all right. They went onto other things. I mean, it just was one of those things that happens. And but we started because there were several good artists in the area who didn't have a place to show or who said well why don't you? And we were lucky enough to have a very nice building at that time that-that wanted us. And so we, you know, that worked well together. But balancing, you know, every-I think-I think almost every woman in the United States does that now. They balance. You know, they balance their lives out between-between working and child care and home care and-and a friend and companion to their husband and-and the rest of their families. And so it's-we've

124 grown to a very complicated lifestyle but fortunately, we have washing machines and things like that. Somebody said to me one day, well, you know, you're always talking about the environment. You don-you-do you want to go back to the good old days? And I said, well I-I grew up in the country and we had running water in the kitchen and we had an outside shower and that was it. And the rest of the water, you know, was hauled. And I said, fortunately, we had people who helped us. And-but we, you know, we didn't have washing machines. And I said, the one thing that I would not want to give up is a washing machine. Said, I think I could give up a lot of the others but a washing machine is something I really don't want to part with. So-but I still hang my clothes out on the-on the line because I like it. I think I'm one of the few people on the island who does that. But that's getting away from where we were. And...

DT: How do you think these environmental groups, and I guess this goes for a lot of volunteer groups, how are they going to manage without this supply of people I think they've grown accustomed to who had the spare time to come and contribute to the non-profit?

138 MLC: Well I think there needs to be balance. I would, at one time, in fact, we did apply for a grant to have a South Texas office. It didn't come through because actually the-the money wasn't there at national that we had thought there was, you know. And we applied through the-to the region of-of-of-and-and because we had hoped that maybe we could do some work in Mexico through that office. In other words, if we had the money, we could-we could expand a little bit, maybe not set up a chapter in Mexico but at least serve some people in Mexico and get some of the Mexican problems, at least some (?) some help. But I-I do think that it's very good to have a balance. We work well with the Austin chapter but it's not always-there-they have many priorities and it's not always easy to get all of our-of attention that we would-we truly believe that we need. But-so we-we pretty well do it ourselves.

DT: Do you think that's the trend is that where there's enough demand, those jobs will become paying jobs?

151 MLC: Well I think so. And I...

DT: And that the working women will help contribute to that and the working men as well?

152

MLC: They're-there just isn't quite enough money to-to go around. You know, you have to-I mean, to-in order to have a-a professional office and-and professional workers all over the state. It just has not-it's-it's not that way. You know, it just isn't because we're-the-the-in the first place, we're not-for-profit group so how do we get that money? And we get that money-as-as I'm sure you know, from grants and-and institutions that are interested in furthering the environment and furthering the relationship and recognizing that it's important and through educational groups who-but we don't ever have enough. And I don't know whether we ever really will or not because as we get more problems, the demands grow greater. And so we-we've learned how to make do, you know, we-we-we-we pay for some of it out of our own pockets and we go and ask somebody else to-maybe they'll, you know, run us off a thousand copies of

166 something or something, you know. So we have a lot of in-kind that is given to us. And we carpool a lot and do things like that. So-and room at hotels together when we go on trips and-and-and-and there are a lot of the foundations that are willing to, you know, both large and small that are willing to-to work and to put their money into-into the bettering of the environment or into environmental education.

DT: Something else I wanted to ask you about .. it seems like environmental groups have traditionally been white, middle class people. And the society is changing and it's not white and middle class as much as it once was. And I'm curious how you see the future playing out for environmental groups, whether they're going to come sort of a marginal, odd bubble of whiteness or if they're going to become more integrated? And, if so, how's that change going to happen?

183 MLC: It's going to take work on both sides. And down here, down in the Valley, we're about eighty-five percent Hispanic, Hispanic roots. And yet I will say that our Sierra Club is not eighty-five percent Hispanic. And I don't know when that day will come but I know that through environmental education, there are more and more children wanting to become involved. And-but also there are, oh, that's April-and, excuse me-and more and more wanting to preserve their environment, preserve their homeland.

DT: We were talking just a moment ago about conservation and race, I think you said when we were off tape, that some of those encouraging things is how the staff of some groups have changed. I was wondering if you could mention that?

196 MLC: Well I know that-that the-the state office of the Sierra has-has a consul-actually she's on as-as a consultant now I think but, at any rate, she works out of the state office. Her name is Leslie Fields and she's a very fine lawyer who used to work for the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People]. And so they have taken on-through Leslie, they have taken on a number of-of issues that have had to do with Black neighborhoods and I think that that has been a very forward move and something that eventually will pay off by having more members of all different races and colors. And that's really what we're working toward because that's what the United States has become. We-down here the other night, we had a meeting with Ken Kramer who's our State Executive Director and we had to call people to come mainly from the Ex Comm [Executive Committee] or people we knew that were particularly interested in-in meeting with Ken. And it was over half Hispanic. And we were very pleased because

210 we have a number of teachers particularly who have joined our group down here. And, to me, that is wonderful because they're teaching the children and the teachers-I think there were seven teachers here the other night out of a group of about twelve people. But that is-is one of the-the jobs in the Valley that is needed and that also draws that middle class that is having more time to do things and you wouldn't think teachers would really have more time to do things but they do. They take it on because it's part of their work-work ethic or-of good teachers I think. And so that-that, to me, is-is very important. I-Senator Truan, for instance, is one who is constantly telling me that we need more Hispanic members and I say, Senator, I agree with you. You just forward them our way and we'll take them in. You know, we're not-not wanting to-to exclude anyone. But-and there are some people that simply don't have the leisure time and won't have the leisure time until we have a better job market down here. And for so

226 long, we have been the leaders in the Valley of-of-of the lowest income and the lowest salaries and the lowest employment rates. And so it's-it is difficult for people who don't know where their next meal is coming from to think about the environment. And yet, those are the people who are most affected with unclean water and-and unclean living conditions that-that are caused by environmental problems.

DT: Well said. Something else I've noticed over the years: a lot of the non-profits, particularly the ones in the conservation field have had women as officers and volunteers and as founding members. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about why that is and how that's been part of your life. I noticed that you were with some of the first female appointees to some of these conservation agencies. Why is that?

243 MLC: Well, of course, there's been more awareness and there's been, you know, equal opportunity laws and talks about having more women in-as well as, you know, more races in-into-into decision making-into the decision-making process. And also it's not always-it's not always easy. Sometimes, for instance, I am the only woman on the policy-water policy group for the Lower Rio Grande Valley. And I'm one of two women on our regional planning group for-under Senate Bill One. The majority are

251 men and are business men and are white business men. So, you know, we're not entirely there but I-couple of years ago, I went to a-a rewards party or lunch or something given by the American Association of Uni-University Women and it was on the-the anniversary of women's right to vote. And so they asked several of us to come who had done things. And since I'd been a-an election judge and-and active in the Democratic Party, why I was asked to come. And they, you know, asked you to say a few words when you accept your plaque and whatnot and so I said, well, you know, it's-it's-I'm really honored to have it because when my mother was, you know, this has become within my mother's lifetime that women could vote because my mother couldn't vote when she was a young woman nor could she have been an election judge or-and yet I

265 have an aunt who just retired from being an election judge. At that time, she was-so she had-maybe I followed in her footsteps except I really didn't know for a long time that she was an election judge. She was a business woman and she kept busy doing so many things and we didn't really talk about her being an election judge. So or maybe it's just built into a-a family to want to do things, I don't know. So I-I think that that is more, you know, there's much more equality between the sexes and the races than-and it's coming more and more and should-I think the environmental field should be a leader in it.

DT: Well you're helping that happen.

275 MLC: Well I hope so.

DT: Let's talk about how things have changed over the past. I was wondering how do you think times have changed in your conservation field and in your work since you began this kind of work?

279 MLC: Well really the reason that I became affiliated with-with Sierra Club is because I started trying to do some things on my own here on the island, you know about wetlands, or about beach conservation. And-and one person really can't do a whole lot. I mean, you need to be a group. You need to have a group behind you, not only for the exchange of ideas but-but for-well mainly for the exchange of ideas but if you say, you know, I'm with the Sierra Club or whatever group that you're in and particularly if it's a national organization that has a good reputation as I think Sierra and Audubon both do, why, that is behind you and they know that-that you're not just speaking off the top of your head. But if you have an organization behind you that trusts you, that feels that you are doing something right or else you would not belong to that organization and you feel that the national organization is there to back you up. And this has happened, you know, several times. And people will say, well what organization is you with-are you with. Is you with, not with the National English Teachers.

DT: I know what you mean.

297 MLC: So-so, at any rate, it's-it's-I think important to belong to-to organization. There are all kinds of organizations and-and I'm not particularly a joiner and yet I-when I go through things, I do see my name attached to several things but I try to-to not be in anything that I can't be active in.

DT: So you think that that's one of the big changes, is that these groups have grown much larger in the last twenty or thirty years?

305 MLC: I think they have and then, you know, we go back to maybe women having a little bit more time or being able to take more time. I'm not sure which it is. And yet, most of the people-I-I think it's about half and half in our Valley group of-of-made up of men and women. And we-I think I'm the only one now that doesn't work. I think the rest of them are employed.

DT: Locally, what do you think is-of this period that you've been involved with things down here, is the most important conservation effort or problem that you know of?

316 MLC: Well they keep coming up, you know. So I think the water right now-what I'm working on with water-not that I'm going to make a change but that the people-you know, that all of us together concentrating on water, I think will-will...

DT: Supply or quality or...

319 MLC: Water supply and quality both. Is-and then working with the lo-with the Laguna Madre trying to protect it is important. The-the victories that we have had and the growth of the Lower Rio Grande Valley National Wildlife Corridor which is the-a refuge system that is primarily along the river to-to retain and keep or reforest riparian woodlands along the river. That's-that's a very important one and it's a-it's federal-federally funded in that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service manages those lands but we work as a-as a group who can lobby for them and-and work toward retaining the lands. We actually, in the case of the Boca Chica area, filed a lawsuit. Sierra and Frontera Audubon did - to clear the title. To help clear the title so that-that the land could be purchased by U.S. Fish and Wildlife. So we have played an active part in-in gaining that land. We-Audubon has-has a-Frontera Audubon has a ha-part-time person in

341 Washington. It's-she is paid for by a-a-some monies that were given sev-several Audubon people who are in the Valley whose families had wanted to contribute to Audubon. And so they gave the money for this woman to be-to work part-time in Washington. So she can keep up with what's going on in Washington and then let us know what's going on so they-we, in turn, can lobby our officials. And-and it's a-it's been a great help.

DT: After your many battles, and skirmishes, and wars, do you have some advice for people who are interested in conservation, any comments about what is important and not?

356 MLC: Well it goes back to the idea that everything, you know, is important. Everything touches everything else. But I think it's important to be involved and to-I think it's important to get to know your elected officials because-or the policymakers because you're going to have to deal with them. It's kind of popular now to say, you know, to look down on elected officials but truly they-they are the ones who make the laws. They are the ones who-who-that actually make the policies. And if you don't interact with them, you may get some things that you don't want. And so the-the best part is to at least, if you don't feel friendly toward them, at least try to work with them. And work through their offices. They all have public representatives who-who they by, almost by law, have to-to listen to us and-and work with us. It doesn't mean they're always going to vote the way we want them to. But we-they are accessible. And so that's one very important thing that-that anyone can do. You know, anyone can-can write a

375 postcard. You don't have to have fancy stationery or letterhead. You can write, if you feel strongly about something, you can pick up your pen and write or call. Telephone is very economical now. And so it's-I think that people need to get involved and if they have a problem, call someone from an organization that they know something about and get directions. Sometimes that organization doesn't, you know, maybe they don't do wetlands or they don't do this but they will-they can point you to someone else who does.

DT: One last question that I've got and then maybe you've got something to say instead of me rambling on.

389 MLC: I think I've said a lot.

DT: Do you have a favorite outdoor spot that you can describe, both how it looks to you and why it's important to you?

394 MLC: Well it used to be my first home, if you will, in-in Oklahoma where I was born. And it-it still means a lot to me and I-but I go up there on such an infrequent basis now. I-I used to go at least twice a year and I haven't been in two years now. So that, you can see that I haven't visited my favorite spot. But now I have another favorite spot along with my daughter and son-in-law own a small farm outside of Mercedes. And we raise horses and-and dogs and children. And-and we have a lot of old, old trees out there and it is so wonderful in the evening, about the time the moon comes up, to sit out at our new barn and listen to the horses munching and listen to the coyotes and hear the evening sounds and the birds and maybe we'll hear an owl or two hoot and watch the moon come up and just sit there. You feel like you've done a hard day's work and you probably have but not, you know, not as hard as if you'd been out making hay or something. But-but still, it's-it's probably my favorite spot now. We have some comfortable chairs out there and we generally take a little something to drink and we have our cocktail hour out there and watch the moon, listen to the horses.

DT: Sounds nice. Well thanks for telling me about that and all these other things. This has been wonderful and I really appreciate your time.

421 MLC: Well thank you. Well I appreciate your asking me. I feel really honored and, you know, if it doesn't work out or if you listen to it you don't like it. Or if you want to ask me something else. Or you decide you can't use it why that's OK too, I've enjoyed the day.

DT: Well thank you. It's very useful and a big help.