Jim Earhart Interview, Part 1 of 3

DT: My name is David Todd. I'm here for the Conservation History Association of Texas and we're in Laredo, Texas. It is February 23rd, 2006 and we have a nice opportunity to visit with Professor Jim Earhart, who is a retired professor of biology from Laredo Community College and was the Executive Director for a number of years at the Rio Grande International Study Center. And in both capacities he's been interested in studying and advocating for protection of the natural environment in this southwestern part of Texas and I wanted to take this chance to thank you for spending time with us.

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JE: Well, thank you, David, for the opportunity.

DT: I thought we might start with a question about your childhood. I understood that you grew up in the piney woods of northeast Texas and I was curious if that might have introduced you to the outdoors and to a love and study of it?

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JE: Very much so, David. And-but back then, we didn't think about it in the term of-terms of being environmentalists or activists. I just went out hunting and fishing with my dad in those rolling sandy hills of east Texas in the piney and hardwood complex and we enjoyed it tremendously. And I learned to love nature that way without even thinking of being an environmentalist.

DT: Can you tell us about any of those first trips, hunting or fishing or otherwise being in the outdoors?

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JE: Yeah, we used to go out and squirrel hunt. We like to eat-when we killed something, we ate it. We didn't just go kill it for the fun, we ate the squirrels. And I remember being out with my dad; we would come up to some friends' house in the woods. And they'd invite us in, we'd sit around the fireplace-this would be wintertime or fall of the year, when it was cool-we'd sit around the-the-the fireplace and they would have some baked potatoes and-and parched peanuts and so on and we'd sit there and eat and talk. And then get back out and-and-in the woods and look for the

00:03:23 - 2366 squirrels again. And of course, we went duck hunting, we went fishing, all those kind of things, tremendously enjoyable. My dad was-you know, y-you couldn't say he was an environmentalist in the modern sense of the word, but he greatly appreciated the out of doors. He enjoyed it and I think if we had a whole world with his attitude right now, we'd have a lot better environment.

DT: What was his attitude, you think, about nature and wildlife?

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JE: He-I think he had a-a deep sense of love for it. Those critters, he-sort of like the Native Americans. When he-there's a reverence, even when you go kill an animal, a deer or whatever, that you're going to be using for your livelihood, you kill it in reverence and with thanks. And I think my dad had that kind of attitude.

DT: You were telling me before about your dad and I guess other family and friends that went squirrel hunting and that you always ate what you shot. I'm curious if this attitude your father and your family had about wildlife would've seen something odd about trophy hunting, which seems like the more traditional kind of hunting, especially the high dollar kind of hunting that goes on now.

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JE: Right. That's something that we didn't do. There was no trophy hunting. I guess for one thing, you know, I just-I never thought about it at the time, but probably if my dad had thought about it, he would probably have figured it was kind of expensive to get the heads mounted. That's-you know, that-that's an interesting question. I had not thought about that before, but we just never considered trophy hunting. It was hunting for animals, fish and so on that could be used for food, plus the fact it was enjoyable just to go and be outdoors and-and do that kind of thing. We used to have big family

00:05:23 - 2366 picnics, for example, down on the Sandy Creek, which was one of the creeks that passes nearby Hawkins and-and-and is a tributary of the Sabine River. And so we'd gather together sometimes on holidays and Sundays and so on and somebody would've been down there maybe the night before with trotlines, catching fish. Big black wash pot out there with a fire cooking fish in a-in a deep-deep fat and then having fish and hush puppies and cole slaw, you know, and iced tea or coffee, you know, those kind of things. And then sitting around the-the-in the out of doors and talking. Those kinds of things made tremendous impression upon me as a kid.

DT: And as you grew up and then went to high school, were there any teachers that might've first exposed you to a maybe a more technical, kind of scientific attitude about the outdoors and wildlife?

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JE: Not so much again in the sense that we think about it today, but I remember, probably my favorite of all teachers, T.L. Green, taught social studies, taught me history and so-about the eighth grade. He was also my scoutmaster. I think being in scouting was probably one of the things that really gave me a-also a deep appreciation for nature and for wildlife. The scouting message, I mean, be prepared and also have respect for your surroundings. Have respect for nature and we used to spend times out camping, sometimes just a-a-you know, maybe a Friday evening meeting around the campfire. But other times, we would be out, you know, for extended trips. So those kind of things.

00:07:13 - 2366 I'd say the scouting program, which was, as I say, the scoutmaster was my teacher. But again, as far as a structured, ecological training in high school, not yet. But remember, I graduated high school in 1954 and at that time, we sort of still felt like there was a lot of space out there. And that space has greatly diminished, those woods have greatly diminished. When I go back to East Texas now and I drive from Hawkins to Tyler, about 21 miles, the place that I first remember as a country dirt road connecting Hawkins with Tyler, of course, was paved a long time ago and now it is becoming developed. The

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piney woods and the hardwoods are being ripped apart and removed. And I-I have to admit that when I drive through there now, it's hard not to sort of feel some emotion about the loss of habitat and so on that I see taking place since the days of my youth, you know.

DT: You mentioned that you were in the Boy Scouts and I was curious if you could tell us about any of these particular campouts or overnight trips that you took, some that might that be more memorable?

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JE: Yeah, we used to go-we used to go to a-a Camp Tonkawa, which was down close to Henderson or Mt. Enterprise, Texas, in that area, kind of deep East Texas. And we'd spend a week at Camp Tonkawa. And I remember those kind-yeah, those were great times. Bug juice-I'm thinking about bug juice right now. Bug juice was the

00:08:58 - 2366 Kool-Aid that was in a big-a big container, a big barrel down by the mess hall. And of course, at lunchtime, we'd all have to-we'd have the detail to go down and pick up the food and bring it back to the campsite and then we'd go down with containers and bring back the-the Kool-Aid. And when you would open up the-or-or when you would reach down to get the Kool-Aid out of the barrel, I mean you got all these yellow jackets and wasps and stuff flying around in there. It's why we called it bug juice. And of course, in deep East Texas with the piney woods and again in the hardwoods and the

00:09:29 - 2366 sandy land and all that stuff, being out hiking in the fields and so on with the scouts, those were tremendous times. And, you know, I remember good old buddies that were there at the time and-and-and we greatly-greatly enjoyed that. Donald Williams, he was my-probably my best buddy along about that time and then there were a couple of twins, Dale and Gale McQuaid. Gale and I particularly used to spend the night out on-again, on Sandy Creek in Hawkins. We'd just go out, the two of us, and sit there by the campfire and look at the stars and just kind of look at the world out in front of us.

DT: Was this little Sandy Creek the same stream that was proposed to be submerged behind a dam?

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JE: Not-not yet. At least, not to my knowledge. Not unless it's happened in the last few months, but not-oh, no, no, no. Not that Sandy Creek. That Sandy Creek is-is still there. Now there are of course, Sandy Creek's in other places. That may be under Toledo Bend Reservoir, the Sandy Creek you're talking about. Very possibly. But I'm not particularly-I mean, I'm not knowledgeable of that particular situation. But the Sandy Creek I'm talking about still exists.

DT: Sure. I think the same one that I'm talking about, but there was one that, if I remember this correctly, there was a Sandy Creek Hunting and Fishing Club that donated an easement on their property along that creek so it couldn't be dammed.

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JE: Okay, now that... DT: Is that the same stream?

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JE: Okay. I think so, yes, because the San-okay, the-the-that Hunting and Fishing Club-one of my uncles used to be a guide. Yes, there was an Earhart Grocery Store very close to the turnoff to go to the-what they called a club lake. We always just called it the club lake. And I remember he used to-my uncle used to be a guide. And in fact, up Sandy Creek, there is a lake. Lake Hawkins is up-maybe that's what-yeah. There-up Sandy Creek, further up Sandy Creek, upstream there is Lake Hawkins. But there's still a good stretch of Sandy Creek from the dam all the way down to the Sabine

00:11:35 - 2366 River and-and in the area of the club lake. Yeah. I'd kind of-those kind-those things are back there in the recesses of my mind, but that's true. In fact, my dad-my dad was the first lake keeper and game warden-deputy game warden on Lake Hawkins, which-which a-yes, is a dammed up portion of Sandy Creek, that's true. And that was-that was built probably back in the 70's. It was after I had left home, but I remember I'd go back and visit him. I remember going down to the-to the lake, the boathouse close by where my mother and dad lived. And of course, he-he had the county boat down there and he would go down and-and feed the fish by the boathouse.

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And I remember going down and I-at this time, I really had never observed that particular phenomenon, but I walked to the boathouse and as I got close to the water, suddenly (sound), the fish started coming toward me, just like a bunch of chickens wa-waiting to be fed. And that's what had happened. He had been feeding those fish and I could walk up and down the bank and the fish would follow me in the water. They would swim along with me in the water, which I thought was a pretty interesting

00:12:50 - 2366 phenomenon back then and-and, you know, I know it's conditioned reflex, but I had not thought about it at that time. I was probably in my 20's or 30's-maybe 30 at that time.

DT: Let's see. After you grew up in Hawkins, you went to college at Texas Tech, is that correct?

00:13:06 - 2366 JE: Well, at first I went to Tyler Junior College. Oh, I just drove across there-I drove the bus. And I-I got a job driving the bus back and forth and I would pick up students along the route who were going into the college. That helped pay my college tuition. In fact, it helped buy my first old automobile, which was a-a '49 Ford with every color from the outside color down to the rust. And-but yeah, I-so I went to Tyler Junior College and-and there I got an Associates Degree and, you know, didn't know too much what I wanted to do at that time. I knew I liked the biology course that I

00:13:46 - 2366 took, but I wasn't really for sure yet what I was going to do. I went from there then to North Texas State University. And-well, North Texas State College, I think, at the time. I think it-they had already dropped the designation of teachers, but North Texas State College. And still I didn't know for sure what I wanted to do. I had my friend, Donald Williams, who was studying industrial arts, so I signed up for industrial arts for a while and was not very enthusiastic about that. And so I ended up getting a-a Bachelor's Degree in Business Administration.

And with that, I went to work in Dallas

00:14:23 - 2366 for B.F. Goodrich and worked there for a few months and they transferred me out to-out towards Borger-Borger, Texas. Lived there for a while and-and worked for the company. Then I got transferred back to Grand Prairie, which is between Dallas and Fort Worth. Working for B.F. Goodrich, it was that point that I met my wife and married her.

And then I, through another friend from Hawkins, I found an opportunity to teach at the

00:14:58 - 2366 Duncanville High School. Now that was a real switch because all of my days in high school and my days in college, if somebody would've told me, hey, one of these days, you're going to teach school, I would've laughed at them. I would've really laughed if they said someday you'll have a PhD because I thought no way. But somehow, after I finished the-my active duty in military service, I thought well, you know, teaching sounds pretty good. And so I did get the opportunity to teach on an emergency certificate because I didn't have teacher training and so I taught eight years at-at Duncanville.

00:15:35 - 2366 And then I got interested in-well, I had always had some interest in biology and out of doors and they had me teaching all sorts of classes for which I was really not qualified. And so I said hey, if-if you have me do that, let me do a-a biology-take a biology class because I knew that National Science Foundation was giving grants for folks who needed further science training.

And so the principal gave me an assignment in biology and I applied and, sure enough, got a National Science Foundation grant to go to Texas Tech in Lubbock. And I went out there the first year and, boy, I-I got there and I

00:16:16 - 2366 realized hey, man, you're behind the eight ball because there were a lot of those folks who already had degrees and some of them certainly had more science than I did. I had eight hours of-of biology, basically, and-and maybe a phys-a physics class. And I got out though and I struggled and-and made good enough grades that they gave me a sequential program. So I got to go back then for three more years and by that time, I was able to finish a Master's degree and I got the Master's degree in zoology with a minor in

00:16:45 - 2366 botany. So that really got me moving into the field of biology. Then during that-that last semester, the semester I was about to finish up, I saw an advertisement on the-well, you know, in fact, Chester Rowell, who was one of my instructors there, told me. He said hey, you know, you interested in teaching? He said I saw a-an advertisement over on the bulletin board about Laredo Junior College at that time, before the name changed. And he said you know, that's a neat place down there. Chester Rowell was a plant-well, he-actually a taxonomist. He was really into naming plants. And he said I used

00:17:28 - 2366 to-and he said I'd go down to Laredo every so often to identify plants when the flowers are blooming and so on and he said you ought to try that. And I sent a-I worked up a-an application and handed it to my wife because I was busy with my work there and asked her if she'd send it toward the early part of the week. And so I assumed it was sent. Well, Saturday, I get a call from Doctor Laird at Laredo Junior College saying hey, you know, we'd like for you to come down and interview. And so I talked to my wife and she said you know, I just sent the letter Friday. I forgot, she said. So I don't know

00:18:03 - 2366 how that happened I can't imagine the mail service getting a letter from Friday to Saturday, but my wife's pretty o-objective and I-I think she was right. I don't know how that happened.

But at any rate, I got the call Saturday-I got the call Saturday from Doctor Laird, then we came down to Laredo for an interview and got hired on to teach at Laredo Community College and I ha-I still did not quite have the Master's. The Master's degree was conferred, I think, during the summer before I started teaching in

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the fall. And so then I started my tenure at-at Laredo Junior College and then finally finished it six years ago, I guess, in '80-I mean, '99 or something like that. About six years ago, I-I did my last year. 30-I believe, 33rd year. I've got-had over 40 years-about 40, 41 years in-in teaching altogether.

DT: Maybe you could tell us what it was that you were teaching while you were at Laredo, now Community College?

00:19:07 - 2366 JE: Yeah, I started out teaching general-the general biology courses. And during the time there, I-I-during the time I was at Laredo Community College, I taught not only general biology, but I taught physiology, I taught human anatomy and physiology. That was a course I ended up teaching most of the time, human-human anatomy and physiology. But I also taught the-the comparative anatomy course, which used to be required for medical schools. It's no longer and so that-that's been dropped from the curriculum, but I used to teach that class.

And then in the last few years of my tenure, we

00:19:48 - 2366 developed and started teaching a river curriculum course and that was focused on the Rio Grande. And in this particular course, we really stressed ecology, ecology of the river and so on. And this is something that I had not done previously. In fact, I-with my training in zoology, botany, lot of-there was some fieldwork back then. And then my PhD in molecular biology and biochemistry, most of the stuff was inside, kind of

00:20:20 - 2366 technical, inside the lab. And I had never really been trained in ecology and so when I was teaching the general biology classes, the ecology always was stuffed at the end. We started usually with chemistry and the ecology was at the end. And so I followed suit and really never got to the ecology and I think most of my colleagues were doing the same thing. Well, to me, that's totally backwards. We had it wrong. We had it wrong and-and one of the regrets of my career is that I didn't teach biology correctly. I did not have the ecology and the environmental biology toward the beginning of the semester, looking

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at the whole picture and then honing down into the details. You know, I-I'm thinking-I've been thinking one of these days of apologizing to my former student, Congressman Henry Cuellar, hey, you know, I'm sorry, Henry, I didn't quite teach that class right back there. If I'd a taught-if I'd a taught the ecology and the environmental biology first, I'd have probably given you a better understanding of some of this biological information that would be very helpful to you in making your decisions, your voting decisions concerning ANWR and some of these other items that-that are before

00:21:36 - 2366 us. But at least the last few years, I did begin to teach the biology-ju-the river biology curriculum and I think we were getting it right then. In that situation, we'd have people coming in from throughout the community. Doctor Rolando Guerra, a board member for the Rio Grande International Study Center, a dentist here in town, also has a Master's in ichthyology. We'd have him out for a section. He'd do a lab, take the kids out into the field setting, identifying. We'd have the-another individual who is the-who is a

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coyote control person for this area and we'd take the students out to his area and he would show them how he traps the coyotes and all that kind of stuff and a-and the other animals. And sometimes, you know, students didn't like that but they can kind of see hey, this is what the situation is. Another former student of mine, David Gonzalez, works at the bridge with the USDA. And of course, he would come over with my students and do a taxonomy program and he would explain to them how he's making his living by using taxonomy to identify plants and insects and so on down at the bridge. Things that

00:22:49 - 2366 are coming across the bridge that maybe are going to blocked at the bridge to keep spreading-to keep from spreading disease and so on. And so I think this kind of situation-and we had numerous other individuals coming in who are actually putting their work-who are putting their biological and scientific information into making a living. They came and spoke to the students and sometimes the students went out in the field with them and I think this-these students had a-a much better understanding of how biology relates to their lives than any of the other students I ever had. And I had

00:23:26 - 2366 some good students in the past, it wasn't their fault. It was my fault and I guess that's kind of the way the system was working. And I will at least-I'm at least happy that I found out a little bit of it a few years before retirement.

DT: It seems like you're not only using your ecology class to teach kids the practical applications, maybe how they can make a career, how they can make a living in biology or related disciplines, but also using the local ecosystem, the Rio Grande as a kind of a case study or a test bed for some of these ecological theories, is that right?

00:24:04 - 2366 JE: I think so. I think very much so. And in fact, you know, talking about our local students here, you know, our first and second year students, I'd also like to mention that now-for I guess for about five years or so-I've worked with the South Texas Environmental Education Research Group in which I have some students who are already-some-many of them are medical school students, many of them are in the Master's of Health program. In fact, some of them are already practicing physicians. But I'll have them, say, for nine or ten months out of the year, I'll have them for one day out

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of the month when they come down to do a rotation. And so we're-we're actually using the river. We spend the morning out on the river, looking at various types of processes that have been taking place, like the raw sewage entering the river from-from the Laredo. Pointing out also that raw sewage also enters the river sometimes from Laredo. We're looking at such issues as erosion; we're looking at issues such as warehouses located along the river and its tributaries containing no telling what, probably everything

00:25:08 - 2366 under the sun. We-we make these students aware of that just as we have made a-our local younger students aware. But I think these folks, you know, have a background when they come, these folks with the STEER program, and they have a background, they have training already. And this is always good for me because I have these people, many

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of them that have trained as much as I have, and some in different fields, like I say, medicine or veterinary medicine or so on. And-and so I'm learning a lot every time they come down and talk to me because some of them come from Canada, some of them come all out through the Northeast and occasionally we've had someone from across the Rockies, like California. But most of the time, it's the eastern half of the U.S. So that has been a-been a big help to me in this whole program to-to realize what's happening throughout other places in the country and that-that, you know, they

00:26:08 - 2366 always-we always have this session in the afternoon where they give me feedback. I-I like to get it when they've been here at least a week and I get their reactions to Laredo and the border and how it compares to places where they're from. And very often, I'll get some good feedback. And I'm always trying to get them, hey, folks, why don't you come down here and work on some of these problems along the border because they're-they're seeing the problems when they're here.

DT: Well, maybe you can give us some examples of two things. One is, in these younger students, maybe epiphanies. You know, the first exposure and kind of awareness of some problem or theory. And then with these older students, maybe some of the connections or the differences that they're seeing between their home community and Laredo.

00:26:59 - 2366 JE: Yeah. Let me start talking and maybe I can hook something or-to make those connections. Talking about the younger students and-and-and thinking about how this kind of program can stimulate them as compared to our older program where you come in the first day. You know, we're going to start talking about chemistry today and you go to the lab. No, several years back, you probably remember the big fanfare in Austin over the nuclear waste dump in Sierra Blanca and I realized that my friend from Sierra Blanca, Bill Addington-in fact, I met Bill first at a meeting in-in El Paso. The Rio Grande Rio Bravo Coalition meeting. And he took this (?) in fact; we gave him a ride back to Sierra

00:27:57 - 2366 Blanca and that's when he gave me the videotape that had been put together, I think-I don't know if that was Sierra Club or who actually-there were several people involved in putting that together. And of course, a lot had already transpired in Mexico and-and throughout the U.S. But Laredo was kind of in the dark, like it-it often is about a lot of things. But we brought-I-I brought the videotape back that Bill gave me and we had this river curriculum class going. I believe this was the first year, maybe-the first or second year that we had it going. And on the Friday afternoon meeting where we gathered everybody together, all the instructors that was involved-it was kind of a

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team-team teaching effort and we had different classes that were all hooked together. And we had them together on a Friday afternoon and they showed the video. Well, I mean, boom, the students were really struck by that video. And one of the students asked me would you like to get this on-on Channel 13? And I said well, sure. And she said well, I got a sister over there. And somebody else, well, would you like to get it on the Spanish station, KLDO? Well, yeah. And so they got this on TV. Then, Tricia Cortez

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with the-the Laredo Morning Times came out and did a story, then it was front page in the Laredo Times. And then the mayor, after it came out front page, and Henry Cuellar got very interested in it. I had talked to Henry a year before and I said Henry, we need to do something about that Sierra Blanca waste dump. And he was saying well, you know, it's kind of a preemptive strike. We're doing this and that will keep something else from coming down on us. I don't remember the exact argument. But anyway, nothing happened over that year. But suddenly when it came out front page and was on the TV,

00:29:50 - 2366 Henry said well, you know what, well, I'm on the appropriations committee. If-if they pass this thing, we can block the funds to it. And I-and I-I give credit-I give Henry credit for that because what I see in a good politician, somebody that's responsive, somebody when they see is going to be able to move and change. And, you know, over the years, we've seen those kind of changes take place. Sometimes in-in local politicians, if you can get around and-and show them and-but after all, let's be fair. A councilman, a commissioner, a state legislator, national congressman-that's a lot of

00:30:25 - 2366 stuff going at-even at the city council, there's a lot of stuff. And so they're going to have to depend on other folks and I think the big thing is they better try to find the folks that's going to steer them right. And that sometimes is not so easy. But anyway, that did happen and so when all the big meeting was in Austin, you may have been there when the-when the TNRCC commissioners were meeting. Well, we had our city bus with the-the mayor and a whole group of us going up there and we joined that crowd that

00:31:01 - 2366 day. When the commissioners said well, you know, okay, we're going to, you know, vote that project down. Well, that's-was kind of interesting, you know, too because that was-that was just before George [Bush] was getting ready to run for president, right? He was then governor. I think it would've not been too good for his campaign to have that blight. And th-this is my speculation, right? My speculation. I don't want to have any facts here. But it seems kind of reasonable. I think if I were running for president, I would not want that Sierra Blanca thing behind me. But I-with-I know that I have had trouble in

00:31:48 - 2366 times past with TNRCC, now which is TCEQ, sometimes in getting them to be involved in some of the situations that are going on in town. Not to say they've never done anything because I think they were working on one of the big dumps that we had in the river downstream. Last I heard, it was in court. I'm not sure how that-I need to check one of these days to see how that's come out. But maybe that's-maybe that was, you know, part of the background of getting a current president into office. I think it was a factor and I don't think we had that much to do with it locally, but at least it was good to

00:32:25 - 2366 see that our local people were involved. And I think the fact that-that Henry was on the appropriations committee could've been a factor, right.

DT: Well, you said that your students saw this film that featured Bill Addington and discussed Sierra Blanca and I'm curious if you have any ideas about what really caught their, your students' interest? Was it the aspect of public health out there or some idea of environmental justice, the equity of there being Hispanic community, poor community that was going to have this kind of sacrifice zone out there? Or was it a more selfish concern, well, if this thing leaks, it's going to come down the Rio Grande and it's going to affect our water quality here in Laredo?

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JE: I think it was probably-I think it was probably all of the above. I think they were kind of incensed to see that, here, you've got this small community that's going to get this crammed down their throats, right? And even though some people there didn't want it. Now I know some did agree because you always got that group around, maybe you're going to make a little money out of it, who are ready to take it regardless. Just like now, we're talking about, you know, somebody wants to put a ten-story high waste dump out on Highway 359. Well, we got one commissioner who's running now who has

00:33:44 - 2366 come out diametrically opposed to that. And I-I just don't think we ought to be taking garbage from everywhere in the country. But I think they were concerned about probably all those factors because we didn't-this was sort of a-a new program that we had tried to put together. And in fact, we had a-we had a NSF [National Science Foundation] grant for that and it was something that was supposed to get going and-and we wanted to keep it going. And we do have a rigor-rig-river curriculum course now, but it's not quite the way it was then. This is the hard thing to keep. It's hard sometimes to keep this thing going because your administration-your school administration may not really support you the way they

00:34:26 - 2366 should. But, no, I think-I think we had students in there who did care. Most of them-most of them were elementary education majors in that particular course and I think they, you know-I think the fact that they were going into elementary education, they were concerned about students, they're concerned about people. And I think they were concerned about the whole thing and this idea of-of the potential of radioactive materials leaching into the water and affecting us downstream, that obviously is going to bother them. But I-I sort of think they were concerned about a number of issues there.

00:35:04 - 2366 Well, you know, we used to-we used to sit and some of the students before NAFTA-really, when NAFTA was being discussed so much, and we would sit around and try to visualize the effects of NAFTA. What's that going to do to our community? Is it going to be good or bad? And it was interesting. We could get students engaged. I mean, I find-I find that when you expect a lot of students, even in this day and time when a lot of people bemoan and complain-when you really-when you find students and you expect a lot out of them and you give them something interesting that they can get their minds and their teeth into, now you can get some pretty good responses.

DT: Well, you mentioned NAFTA. What were some of (inaudible)(misc.)

DT: When we broke, we were just talking about NAFTA and some of the discussions pro and con about it. Maybe you can elaborate what your students and you were thinking?

00:35:54 - 2366 JE: Yes, because we, you know, we said well, we're going to have the NADBank [North American Development Bank] and we're going to have BECC [Border Environment Cooperation Commission] and so on, which is going to provide funding to do studies and to sort of keep the environment intact and, you know, maybe that will work and, of course, it's going to provide a lot more international trade and so on which will provide funding for doing these kinds of environmental actions. And so we would-we would talk about that and, I think, you know, pretty intellectually honest, trying to think which way is it going to go? I would have to say at this point, from the standpoint (?) from

00:36:37 - 2366 the standpoint of environmental quality, I-I would say NAFTA has been a negative for this area and I can elaborate on that a bit. Course we already had-we already had 25 or 30 million gallons of raw sewage entering the river years ago. And then, even before NAFTA, we got the wastewater treatment plant. That-the-in Lar-Laredo, that was started sometime before by some forward-thinking individuals. We got that online and that cut the wastewater effluent tremendously. We still have a lot going in and I'm told

00:37:19 - 2366 by some folks that within a year, that infrastructure's supposed to be there to capture the rest of that. So we'll see what happens on that issue. But why do I think NAFTA is a negative-a net negative for the environment? NAFTA has stimulated tremendous growth. Laredo has been billed as, sometimes as the fastest growing city in, at least, Texas or I've heard somebody say the US. I don't know about the veracity of all those

00:37:55 - 2366 numbers. But I know it's growing rapidly, I know that. As it grows rapidly, that means more warehousing and-and the warehousing has traditionally, most of it, has been along the streams and along the rivers, along the tributaries entering the river. Commercial growth has grown tremendous-I mean, retail businesses and so on. House construction has been tremendous all the way around Laredo, and of course Laredo has only got north, east, and kind of southeast because we got Mexico on the other side. So all around the periphery of Laredo, north to south, we have a lot of home building. There has been little

00:38:44 - 2366 regard given to the preservation of streams-and I'm not just thinking of that from the standpoint of yeah, it would be nice to have green spaces to look at, nice for birds and so on. No, I'm thinking of situations where conditions have been set up where people's houses flood, where their foundations crack, sometimes even their walls crack. This is, I think, related to very, very rapid growth. Really, I would say, pretty much uncontrolled growth. Think of this for a moment. In the city of Laredo now, I guess approaching, what 180, 200 thousand, somewhere in that neighborhood. I don't know what the official

00:39:36 - 2366 figure is. Closer to 200 thousand. We've got-for the whole city, we've got two general plumbing inspectors. Sounds kind of like a small number and I was talking the other day to a plumber who is a former student of mine who's kept up with this. And he says those guys are doing anywhere from 25 to 50 inspections a day for each. And I just heard that one of those plumbers has been suspended for some reason, so right now, we've got one plumber inspector working for this whole city with all of the growth that you can see.

00:40:17 - 2366 You've probably seen it just here in town.

I was also told by the plumber that there's really no control right now over the lawn sprinkler industry-that there is-that there has been no enforcement of backflow-plumbing backflow for the last five years. Now that's pretty scary when you couple that with the work of Doctor Soriano, Asuncion Soriano, who's a pediatric gastroenterologist here in town and she treats numerous children with gastrointestinal disorders, giardia, for example, as some bacteria gets-probably H pylori and so on, that-that could be entering the drinking water system

00:41:22 - 2366 through these backflow situations. And I'll explain kind of what I'm talking about there because a lot of people are not familiar with that. But see, before when she was talking-and I met with her once before because the-we had looked tentatively at some kind of grant proposal-but I had thought well, maybe, you know, because I've looked at the water plant-water treatment for a good while and I think it's pretty decent system. So I'm thinking well, I don't think it's the water treatment plant. But now that I've talked to my former student who's the plumber and I-I realize all these problems out there. Let's

00:41:54 - 2366 say, for example, you have a lawn sprinkler hooked into your-your potable water supply, which is the way they are. And let's say that there is no check valve to stop backflow and that sprinkler, it's-the sprinkler heads are in the lawn. And let's say that there is a leak in the pipe or something and the pressure drops back in the main line. That's just going to be a siphon, sucking the water back in from the lawn. Now let's say on the lawn, of course, you've got soil there. You maybe have fertilizer, you may have

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pesticides and you may have feces from pets. You could be pulling that in to the water-to the drinking water supply. Let's assume-let's assume that somebody has a con-they're out there-they're fertilizing or, you know, putting chemicals on their lot and they've got a bucket there, a gallon or five gallon bucket, water in it. They leave the hose in it because they've been filling it. Pressure drops in the line, guess what? (?) I mean, people have died from that kind of thing in-in places. Not in Laredo that I know of, but you know, across the country, people have died from that kind of backflow. Let's

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say, for example, and we had-we had a spill out on the Mine's road here in Laredo a year or so ago, which one of the main sewer line broke. And it sent hundreds of thousands of gallons of raw sewage into the river above our water intake. But now, let's say that you had, during that time, a break in the water line and water lines and sewer lines are very often really close together. Let's say that you had a break in a sewer line and you spill all this stuff out the same time you had a break in a water line. Maybe something hit them, you know, and broke them at the same time. Or you had a break in a

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sewer line and sometime later you have a break in a potable water line. I mean, that-those bacteria and so on are going to stick around after a while in that soil, so you-they could be picked up and put into the drinking water line. So when I hear these kind of things, I'm thinking, boy, you know, maybe Doctor Soriano is onto something here with those cases of gastrointestinal problems in-in young people here in the community. And I know I've digressed, we were talking about the course and-and-and-and-and

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our students and how we hooked them in. And I wanted you-I-I guess I wa-I wanted to point out there how these students can become very interested in what's going on. How they got interested in the-in the Sierra Blanca thing and-and how they took action. I mean, these students-I credit the students. Look, I brought the tape back, but without the action of these local students, we would not have had the press. Without the press, we wouldn't have had Congressman Cuellar and Mayor Betty Flores involved.

So to me, that's the kind-that's the kind of biology that we ought to be teaching. That's the

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kind of science that we ought to be teaching. And in fact, we had integrated in that program, we had instructor from Speech, we had a instructor from English and-and Algebra and we were trying to get Government hooked in, which is, to me, makes-is the way we should be teaching our curriculum. It should be built around some kind of theme where you bring students and teachers in from all areas-all the academic areas. And then things become meaningful and it's actually less work on the part of students because rather than having a term paper in this-in English and a term paper over here in

00:45:34 - 2366 Biology and so on, they can be working on one term paper and getting input from all these other folks. To me, that's the way it should go. Now I'm not sure that I've still answered your question about hooking the-the-two-year students in with the STEER group, although at times, I have had-I've invited-it's always open for students to visit with the STEER group and we've had some of them. And in fact, some of the students-I'm trying to think right now. I believe I've had a couple of students that I had had earlier who recycled in the STEER program. They had gone off to either medical school or to, you know, public health school, maybe in-in San Antonio somewhere and then came back in to the STEER program that way.

DT: Well, I guess I would have a follow-up question. You said that the river curriculum course seemed to work well, but as time has gone by, it's evolved somewhat and I'm curious if you got any sort of, to use your analogy before, any back pressure from the administration where they might contest an academic course becoming one that becomes more of a political exercise.

00:46:53 - 2366 JE: That's an interesting question. I think I've-basically I think I could answer that by saying I've had pretty go-I've had good support from the administration and I-you know, back in (inaudible) let's give you an example there and I still want to stay with that, I-if-if I can. But I-I want to come back and-and talk about that administrative support. Back in 1998, when the US Army Corps of Engineers was coming down to construct the Border Patrol Road-what we call the Border Patrol Road here. Joint Taskforce H, which involved a number of law-law enforcement agencies. We-we

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took an active stance and, in fact, the Rio Grande International Study Center, which is a nonprofit organization, was one of the plaintiffs in that court-in that-in that case because we did not want the road passing through the trail, the Paso del Indio Nature Trail that we had constructed. And of course, that joined in with, I think, MALDEF was

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involved in it-the Mexican Amer-Mexican American Legal Defense Fund and that involved some people down in the Rio Bravo and so on. So we were involved in that. Now President Dovalina to his credit-president of LCC-told me, he said well, you know, I had some board members saying man, you ought to throttle this guy. And Dovalina told them no, it-he's got academic freedom. And I was still working for the college at that time. I was director of the center but I was working-still working for the college. And I have to credit Doctor Dovalina for that. So that was a positive thing

00:48:37 - 2366 there. I-I-I didn't, you know, a-he very pointedly-he-he made the point that I wasn't under pressure from my job in that situation. Now let me take it further though, let me take it further.

We had the-we got the National Science Foundation grant to develop this river curriculum program, this integrated program that's going to bring in students and teachers from throughout the college to focus on the Rio Grande. Each semester, I had to scramble every time to get the-to make the course because it was never well advertised. We worked on it and worked on it and it-for example, it was not

00:49:29 - 2366 in the telephone registration, what they call OLAY, the telephone registration program for enrolling in classes. And finally, the last semester that we had the grant, I finally-I went personally to computer folks and I said can we get this in OLE [On-Line Enrollment] because I was told before we couldn't do it. Oh, yeah, we can do that. So-but you'll have to go talk to the academic dean. And so we did. He said well, you got to okay it with the registrar. We did that. That was in the spring, before the-the fall semester in which, you know, would

00:50:14 - 2366 be the last funded semester. So I thought hey, we're-finally we're going to have this thing done. I got back in the fall and they told me in the computer department that the dean had cancelled the telephone registration. Not cancelled the course, the course was still there. But then one last semester, I had to scrounge and advertise and have all kinds of things set up around the time of registration to make the class. I hate to have to say that, but that's what happened. It's the truth. And I-I feel really bad because I-I think that was an opportunity for us to get something going that could've been really

00:51:08 - 2366 continuous, to have this interaction. We still have a rigor-river curriculum course. We have Miss-Miss Waneth, who actually took my place as director at the center. She still does that and does an excellent job, but you know, it's just not supported to have that broad, campus-wide interaction. Now someone was telling me the other day, you know what? They've been talking now at the administrative level about this, how are they calling it, integrated teaching or whatever. Kind of like you were doing. I don't know. But I feel like we let a lot of-I feel like we let the students down. I feel like we did not do what we said we were going to do as far as our promises to the National Science

00:51:48 - 2366 Foundation. And I really regret that because that's one of the things I had seen for years and years that we needed to integrate. We need to pull this whole thing together so that students can get a better understanding. And you know where I got that idea; I learned so much from my kids-my own children. My son, who's a physician now in Hillsborough, Texas. I used to watch what he did and when he came to community college. And I told

00:52:17 - 2366 both my kids, look, if you can show me why it's important for you to go to some other place to start with, some university where-you give me your program, I'll go with you. Otherwise, you're going to go right here. And they were okay with that. And-but-but my son was the kind of a kid, you know, even in elementary school, he had all his work done. Before he'd do anything else at night, his work was done. When he came to LCC, I no-he always kind of competed with the instructors. Whatever the instructor knew, he needed to know. And I watched how he integrated his chemistry, his physics and his

00:52:52 - 2366 mathematics and his biol-I saw how he sort of did this. Then I realized that most students were not doing that and that's-that-I think that's where I got the concept.

Why don't we integrate this thing? Why don't we have this curric-river curriculum program, building it around the river and sort of engineering this understanding? Not leaving it up to the individual student to have to kind of put it together. I mean, some students can do that. Some students will get it all and put it together and that's great and

00:53:23 - 2366 they're going to make it. But what about those students who have a hard time putting it together. I don't think I could've put it together back then. I-I think my son is-is ahead of wherever I was. I don't think I could've put it together. I think I would've been better to be in a structured program where I was helped put it together.

DT: Well, speaking of this integration. It's kind of a holistic way of learning. Is there a connection between the teaching that you were doing and maybe some of the research that you were pursuing as a professional?

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JE: Yeah. I think-okay, for example, the 1994 and 1997 binational studies of toxic materials in the Rio Grande. Had I not had the PhD in-in molecular bio, in which we had talked about heavy metals-you know, worked on heavy metals, in fact, did a project-did my actual lab work at Texas Women's University in Denton, looking at the effects of methyl mercury chloride and (?) radiation, (?) on the bat brain-blood-brain barrier in-in rats. I just think having that kind of background, that kind of training, even though I'm in the field here and looking at these studies, these grab samples that were done by the TNRCC for those two studies, '94 and '97, I think really gave me an

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understanding-a better understanding of-of what was reported so that I could interpret it for the students, and also interpret it for individuals because that first-that '94 report came out, was just a bunch of drab reading, statistics and so on, and if you look at the-and this is what bothers me about TNRCC and now TCEQ. If you look at the presidential summary, if you look at the-the summary. The exec-I'm sorry, the executive summary at the beginning. I look at that-if that's all I looked at and I'm a bureaucrat, I'd deep six it because there's no problem. Yet when I went in and we started graphing-we did bar graphs on a lot of these things up and down the river, particularly in our area-we began to see wow, you know, there's some-there's high levels. I think we had 19 different chemicals that reeked-exceeded certain standards. In the 1997 study, over by our water treatment plant, they-they filleted a bass over there and the-

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and the bass fillet had methyl mecury chloride of one milligram per kilogram of body weight. I-and I called right then. I called the-the Food and Drug Administration office in Dallas and I talked to a lady and I said what-you know, what would-how-what does this mean to you guys in the regulatory agency there? And she told me if we were to find-if we were checking the fish, if we sampled a fish that was crossing state lines under interstate commerce, we would see-that had that level of mercury, we would seize that fish and we would start an investigation to get to the bottom of why that

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level of mercury was there. And yet, that fish was taken in a grab sample. That should've triggered-in my mind, should've trickered a very-should've triggered, by TNRCC, a very careful study of the area. Coming in and taking bass tissue, that species and working on that species, finding out, you know, was this a fluke? Or is this statistically significant? It rocked on with no study. Finally there was a subsequent study and that study involved a number of different species of fish-not a huge number, but a number of different species-some of which were taken above the mouth of Manadas

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Creek where I suspect the problem was coming from because that was, you know, had been 65 or 70 years, an-an antimony smelter which processed ores from all over the world, including China and so on, which had in there not only antimony, but mercury and chromium and other heavy metals. But these fish in that subsequent study was taken from upstream of there in different places. I think-I thought the whole study should've focused right there at the water intake and it should've been the same species in which

00:57:48 - 2366 the mercury was found before and the same tissues. I mean, really control that experiment. To my knowledge, there has been no, what I would consider, good scientifically controlled experiment yet to answer that question. So that question again, I-I'm still-I digressed again, I think, from your-the question originally was...?

DT: About how you integrate your teaching with your research.

00:58:14 - 2366 JE: Yeah. Okay. Then teaching. Having that-that research background helped me with teaching the students in this course, but it has also helped me teach, I believe, people in government. For exam-let me-let's say, for example, after we did our bar graphs in the-the 1994 study, I talked with one of the gentlemen from TNRCC and he said yeah, we pribly-we should've had that kind of stuff and when they did their second study, they had more assistance. The second-first study was about that thick and the next one was about like that. So I-I think you can have effect, but it is difficult because-I don't

00:58:58 - 2366 know, what is it? I'm-I think I mentioned to you earlier, the big problems I see, the two big culprits, part of our human psyche is greed and ignorance. And ignorance is tied in with laziness, I guess. I mean, to be educated to know something-in fact, we're all ignorant. We've got these few areas that we lighten up, but if you-if you're too lazy to dig into it, you're not going to know. And I'm afraid that that's true in-with all people, in general. I mean, not all people, but certainly it's too common in our bureaucracies, in

00:59:42 - 2366 our teaching, the institutions, everywhere. That people, you know, kind of, that's a little bit further than I'd like to go. Takes a little too much effort. And so when you don't know, then you've got a problem. And then when you cook in that human nature of greed, and we all have it. We all have it. I have it, you have-we all-we-we've got a certain greed, it-it's built in. We have that. Now it can be taken too far. But when you hook that together-and like in our local situation right here, I mean, we've got some people with a lot of money that-that was probably inherited because they inherited land

01:00:26 - 2366 which got oil and gas and, you know, maybe they've got fairly good intelligence. I'm not saying they don't have good intelligence, but sometimes maybe they haven't developed it the way they should and they've got money along with ignorance and tremendous technological capabilities can create terrible problems. I mean, in the course of an hour, you could wipe out something very significant with bulldozers and other heavy earth-moving equipment. For example, right on the Laredo-well, just off of...