Video cuts out DT: I see. BE: And, Schlesinger and his father did a lot of that. They talked to- they had about 55 historians about the quality ... DT: Oh, I did hear about that. BE: And I've been doing that. He did. He only arranged which are the highest and lowest, but mine follows a whole period of the presidency. There aresix different areas and I'm writing about that. No. 1, the period of the Federal- the period of the Constitution itself, the creation of the founders, which- and if you list them and touchthem as one through six, one at the highest, sixth as the lowest, and then you can take averages in that. You take that from the beginning till about 1860. The rating of quality is about2.3. That's really high. DT: Um-hmm. BE: In the period from 1860 to 1700, [1900?], the rate is one of the lowest. It's one of the lowest. It's about 4.3 or something like that, except inthe case of Lincoln. But if you count it in along with Lincoln, too, it still makes it go very low because actually Clinton- I mean, Lincoln was- was really a Whig. He did of course awonderful thing about slavery, but before and after, the Presidency has gone well low. DT: Um-hmm. BE: Then the third group would be 1900, including- would include Teddy Roosevelt, Taft, and Wilson, and then it goes way up, quite up. It goes to about,oh, say, to five or something. DT: Um-hmm. BE: The next period was the New- the days of the '20's, and that's the absolute lowest. That's No. 5. But then from the New Deal- and I'm using rateshere concerning with the- these 55 people--not my viewpoints, ... DT: Um-hmm. BE: ... but these views. It's high up than the first, and the New Deal. It would- it's somewhere around 2.8, as quality- as quality. And that runs- thatruns down through- even Nixon- even through Nixon. DT: Well, speaking of Nixon, when we were driving over here, Gary was mentioning how when you were in Congress, that- that Nixon got distracted. BE: Yeah. DT: And, that because of his distraction with Watergate and Vietnam, you were able to pass a number of conservation-oriented laws that probablywouldn't've been able to've passed through, if he hadn't been distracted. I'm wondering, how do you rate somebody in terms of his neglect? I mean, if ... GK: [Laughs.] BE: Well, I don't speak of it- I believe the ... DT: ... you'd think he'd actually improved. BE: ... I believe the division goes through- through next- from- from Roosevelt through Nixon and then beyond that. But in any rating, Nixon had about fouror five positions- strong position which were good. But the main thing is that in the '70's, and when Nixon was there, and Ford, and- and Carter, and- Bush, and Clinton- in that period, therate is- is the closest worst in that group, which includes Clinton. DT: Um-hmm. BE: And out of their failures on these is- the rate there is called low average. And I think that's probably correct. DT: Um-hmm. BE: But the thing is that I'm writing about- something about this whole situation because, No. 1, this shows how these areas swing from one side of- toanother, top first period, low. Top, low, to high- top, low. DT: Um-hmm. BE: But the last state is- is low today, and I think that's a sad, sad- bad thing. One thing is, look at some things about why- what has really happened.There's not a single person- this would- I'm including Nixon, of course, see, so- I think there's only one Senator in that group who became President. I think only Nixon. Not a single Senatorat that time. The time before, it would include Kennedy, ... GK: Johnson. BE: ... Johnson. GK: Yeah, Nixon was the last senator who became president. BE: Huh? GK: Nixon was the last senator ... BE: Nixon- and then of course- after Roosevelt, you know, ... GK: Truman. BE: Truman. So there're about four senators. The thing is that we don't have experience--the federal experience is so low. Not that they- Clinton is abright man. DT: Um-hmm. BE: But he has very little background on federal matters, ... DT: Um-hmm. BE: ... either federal- either domestic or overseas. The thing about it is that he also didn't- knew very little about dealing with Congress. DT: Um-hmm. BE: And most of that time, it was Democratic. GK: Right. How were you able to deal with Johnson and Nixon, as experienced as they were in the Senate when they were president? How were you inCongress able to deal with them and get things through, like environmental and consumer laws? BE: Oh, sure. The thing is, he was- he's- well, I've been working on this question of industrial safety. And he brought in- not for me but he brought inthe- what is called, you know, the- the bill that- what it's called, in ... GK: OSHA? BE: OSHA, yeah. That was- that was my stuff. I started right in the beginning in my- and I passed it. I stayed there for ten years, and during thatperiod- eight years, and during that period, I was trying to get that bill through, and I wasn't able to do it. So in- when Johnson brought it in, within a year after ... [Tape 2, Side A.] BE: So when--Johnson brought it in, within a year afterward. And not as- not that I say that I did add anything with it, because the thing is that I wasjust a freshman and decided that I only had the one committee at that time and that had to do with my- it had to do with a- space bill, because that's all I could get. The next time I cameand won- got the best position possible in commerce. DT: Um-hmm. GK: Were you that interested in NASA and space issues? BE: Yes, I was interested, but the important thing is that it was a good committee because it had- they were- they used a lot of money at that time andhad some- some good movement at that time. But it was going down a bit at that time, ... GK: Yeah. BE: ... and the thing about it is that I had plenty of time--since there were very few let[?] bills, I spent most of my time on the floor. And I learneda lot more about Congress by being there instead of working in a committee. GK: Yeah. DT: The procedures of how a bill makes its way through now? BE: Yeah, yeah. Quite different in the- in the Commerce Committee. Commerce is just loaded with committee hearings and I- I became chairman of two of thechairmen, I- sequentially, you can't get- you couldn't have two of 'em. GK: Yeah. BE: But, it had to do- it included- in both of those committees, these covered more of the- covered more ... GK: Consumer? BE: No, the- administrative bills. GK: Yeah.BE: I mean, provisions.GK: Oversight. Yeah.BE: All of that's covered, including safety, and- not environment, but I was also in the- I was on the Interior Committee. I was not a chairman but I wason it. GK: Is that how you got involved in the Big Thicket issue was through the Interior Committee?BE: Yeah. Yeah, I really- I handled that, once I got it. GK: Yarborough had- had run with it until he got defeated. BE: Yeah, he worked very well in that, and then he was- when he left I took over and- and got it passed. DT: You make it sound just like- so simple and easy, and what was the full story of protecting the Big Thicket? BE: Well, it was a tough thing at that time. Actually, it was real lucky, because- what was that fellow who was- went to the Penitentiary in East Texas?Dowdy. Dowdy was in that district and covered that area, so he- see, he was completely out of the way. Even he- he was in the committee- in Congress, but I could run the show. DT: [Laughs.] GK: [Laughs.] BE: And then Wilson came in, and Wilson was a little bit more- he was in with lumber people. He was- he was- but I made a deal with him, a compromise, andwe got a bill passed- a bill that passed- I think it was 67- about 68,000 miles- I mean, ... GK: Acres? BE: ... acres. GK: Did you know Charlie Wilson before he got up there and ... BE: My--yeah, we were in Congress- in the House at the time. But, I just made a deal with him, and we made a compromise, and ultimately it's got to besaid that Wilson brought it up to about a hundred thousand- 100,000 acres. GK: Before it got to this point of being a bill in Congress had you ... BE: Well, I- we- we passed it.GK: Yeah. But before- before you got to Congress had you been camping in the Big Thickets or ... BE: Well, I'd been working with- with- with- and the people- they connected with Houston like that, and we were able to- to move toward the Big Thicket. And... GK: I know there are a lot of pictures in your files of you out in the Big Thicket, showing people around. BE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. DT: Well, was- was the interest in the Big Thicket a- sort of an aesthetic issue or was it habitat for wild life or was it recreation? What did peoplewant out of the park? BE: Well, at the wild area that- protecting the- that wild country DT: Um-hmm. BE: Let me show you a few things up here, and I'll be back in just a minute. GK: O.K.