Bob Eckhardt Interview 1, Part 1 of 1

DT: This is February 19th[1997], and we're interviewing Bob Eckhardt of Legislature and Congress fame- Gary Keith and myself, David Todd. We're in Mr. Eckhardt's home, and- Gary Keith had a questionabout how you went from labor law into an interest in conservation.

BE: Well, I was interested in it from the very beginning, really. I- I came into the House of Representatives in 1959. I was a freshman at the time butI was pretty much experienced with- in that area as a lawyer. So, I began to work on a question of protecting of the beaches. At that time, there had been a decision holding that the beachitself between the sea and the high- and the Dunes were available for use of drilling under that situation, so that you could drill- owned by an oil company--to the point of the hightides. But I took the position that this is a qualified right. And there is a very good background that establishes under both the Roman system and also in- in Mexico, and before, Spain, thatincludes the right of the use of the beaches, and that's- still exists in Mexico. The thing is that all of this was done pursuant with the Roman law. So I took the position that though youhave a right to drill of an oil company, you still can be limited for the use of the beach itself, as a- under Roman law, and that there was sufficient basis for bringing a statute toestablish the- the right of usage of the land. Actually the question dealed [dealt?] largely with the question of the use of drilling. I was not concerned about that question, I wasconcerned about what the public could use, the beach. So I felt that that- it- that this is a right to include the use of a beach as a public right, in spite of the question of the usefor- and- of drilling at that time. But as soon as that was- decision, a lot of people thought that- particularly in Dallas at that time, they were trying to move into Galveston at that timeand build houses right up to the beach and exclude anybody to use that area, and actually they started to put drill- putting posts to stop people from- cross the beaches.

DT: Um-hmm. BE: It had been traditionally used for the open beaches. As a matter of fact, it happens that- it happened that in 19- in 1834, my great-grandfather andhis family came into Galveston at that time. Galveston was a island, unused altogether at that time. They were shipwrecked in that area. So, people used the beach from that time to the- toabout 1958, to utilize the beach. So I thought that is a right that could be established by statute. And I did that in 1939- '59, '59.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: I introduced the Open Beaches Act in the House. But people from Galveston, who- the Senator at that time, and also a Senator around the- the area alittle bit- a little to the south took the position- another position. So I offered the bill in- at that time in conference, the Senate tried to save- change this whole thing. Oh, it didn'tmatter anything- what it said, that- you have a right to the beach, up to the point of the high tide. Well, that's nothing. You don't get anything at all. So I offered an amendment on theconference at that time. A bill had been introduced by the Senate- and a worthless bill. There was a young fellow who was in the Senate down in the south part of Texas and- aroundBrownsville, who took the position of keeping the open use of- through the oil interests and so forth. So, they amended- they offered a bill as a Senate bill.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: And I knew that it was absolutely worthless. So, I came back the next day and offered an amendment which completed- changed it altogether and wentinto the House- I offered an amendment at that time. Hudson was the Senator at the time, and- and I said to Hudson, "You know, you can change this bill so it's absolutely worthless. But I'm gonna- what am I going to do, I'm gonna turn against with my people in my area,and- and change this question." And so I offered the amendment. Baker, and another member of the Senate, came in, and- they began- concerned about this question because a lot of people wanted touse that beach. So, they went on to the- close to the window at the hearing, and whispered with each other and- Baker came in and said, "Bob has got a little simple change here, and- I thinkwe ought to go with him on this point, just for this little amendment." 'Course the amendment absolutely changed it. It created the open beaches at that time, so- we got it passed. We had alot of trouble with it because we hadn't finished that during the special session- I mean, in the regular session. Bailey - or [Price] Daniel was the Governor at that time, and he was rather favorableto environmental questions, though he was quite conservative on questions- on some other questions. However, he and I were both favorable in opposition of the state's- in the state- the ...

GK: Sales.

BE: ... sales tax at that time. So the- the extension- the special hearing ...

GK: Special legislative session?

BE: ... special session came in at that time. And I tried to pass that bill and I was not successful to do it at that time, though Daniel had the rightto open only these questions, but--Daniel permitted this particular bill to be as a special that session, and in the second special session, I passed it. Now that was the history of theopen beaches, at that time.

GK: When you said that there were a lot of people who were putting pressure on the senators who wanted to use the open beaches, ...

BE: Yeah, it was ...

GK: ... who was interested?

BE: ... particularly in Houston.

GK: Really?

BE: There were a lot of people in Houston who used it all the time and people in- and also in Galveston, because it- environmental- these environmentalinterests were more valuable in connection with tourists' work and all such thing and also- particularly the big people in Houston were interested in the use of the beach.

GK: Were they organized at all?

BE: Well, I kind of organized it actually. We were in- I got a petition- I think about 4,000 signatures or something like that ...

GK: Huh.

BE: ... and- I- all of these were signed and- from top to the bottom, stuck 'em together, and I sent to- sent to the House of Representatives and- in the- inthe- upstairs and they dropped ...

GK: Gallery?

BE: ... this thing from the top and it came all the way down and everybody says, "Point of order, point of order!"

GK: [Laughs.]

BE: But, it worked.

GK: [Laughs.]

BE: And we passed it in the House, and ultimately we established the bill. Actually the bill was under the Baker Bill, a Senate bill, but it containedmy bill, ...

GK: Yeah.

BE: ... and that's how it was passed

GK: Did anyone come to you and ask you to do the bill or did you draft it yourself and do the petition yourself, or who did you work with on it?

BE: No, I think I did all of that question altogether.

GK: Huh.

BE: The thing about it is, there was very little staff.

GK: Yeah.

BE: At that time, committees didn't have any background of any of that- of that information. So you had to do it yourself.

DT: And there was no organized environmental constituency then, other than the petition that you helped draw up.

BE: Well, the thing is, I was- I was elected, along with people- WITH Randolph--Mrs. [Frankie Carter] Randolph, and we were liberals down in that area, and about six of'em in Houston passed the bill- became members of the House of Representatives. Two more were also moderately liberal. So the whole delegation in Houston was favorable to environmentalquestions ...

GK: Um-hmm.

BE: ... as well as labor questions and matters of that nature.

GK: Bill Kilgarlin was one of them, wasn't he?

BE: He was one of 'em.

GK: He might be worth talking to. DT: One of your partners in crime.

BE: Yeah.

DT: Well, I understood that the coastal concerns that you had with the Open Beaches Act continued on for a number of years and you- you were active intrying to protect the bays, particularly Galveston Bay, against shell dredging.

BE: Yeah.

DT: Can you tell a little bit about how you became involved in that and where that took you?

BE: Yeah. I took the position that it was illegal to drill [dredge] - I mean, to remove the oil- the- this area, and I brought a lawsuit. I was, in fact, in theHouse of Representatives at the time. So I brought a lawsuit, with an- creating an injunction against- permitting coming into the beaches. But the difficulty was that after over- this was ofcourse a temporary limitation at that time, so you have to go then to a full case. And so my opponents took the- shoot, telephone.

GK: You want me to go get it?

BE: ***. So the- the opposition began to- the lawyer came in and said, "If you bring this case against one of the dredge- the oysters men," ...

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: ... they said- they said, "If you lose, it'll cost hundreds of millions of dollars perhaps, and you will lose your case- you might lose." So I had to go andtell my people not to go further, because it was too dangerous to do it. So I continued to work on that, and ultimately by- after I went to Congress, I had a hearing that showed that there'sa right, to keep people not booked- keep the shells- drilling [dredging] beyond a certain distance, and we ultimately won it by a procedural process under law. And the result is that the drillers [dredgers]- thepeople who picked up oil--dead shell, took their ships and went to Galveston- went to Corpus Christi and in that area. They left that area altogether. So we- we saved the- that part of thebeach- of the area about- the oysters areas.

DT: These are some of the reefs in Galveston Bay that ...

BE: Yeah.

DT: ... that you've managed to protect. And ...

BE: And that was most of it. That was most of it.

DT: So there really wasn't as much in Nueces Bay or Corpus Christi Bay. Most of the resources in ...

BE: There wasn't too much there.

DT: I see.

BE: Most of that was on the- on the- see, most of- well, oysters grow- are a mixture of sea- sea water and clear water, ...

GK: Um-hmm.

BE: ... out of the Trinity. And that combination of- mixture of salt and sweet water continued. So that was the richest area for producing oysters.Actually, that and Louisiana were the biggest in the world.

DT: I see. Can you remember much about the whole sort of contretemps at the Fish and Game Commission and Parks and Wildlife in the early '60's overshell dredging? I'd read a little bit about how they changed the rules in '62 or '63, about how close you could come to ...

BE: Yeah.

DT: ... the reefs, and there was- John Connally was involved and it sounds like it was- there was a lot of maneuvering going on.

BE: Let's see. Well, actually, the main thing that happened at that time was when I brought that lawsuit, along with the attorney general of Texas, toshow that the beaches are rolling beaches, that you don't determine geographically where the sea- that area. So when it moves- when it rolls, and is- when it's in, in effect, a beach, ...

DT: Um-hmm. BE: ... we protected that beach- those beaches. They were taking the position that once this was- had moved, and ultimately that land would then becontrolled by individuals, because the beaches had been moved from the- from the sea at that time, so we brought a suit at that time, along with a couple of members of the attorney general,and they did an excellent job. We worked- the three of us worked together on that thing and we won. So, the ...

DT: Oh, this is that ...

BE: ... the rolling beaches was protected at that time. That was the main thing that we were running into difficulty with.

DT: This is, I guess, during the '80's, after Hurricane Alicia? Is that what you're ...

BE: Yeah.

DT: ... talking about and ...

BE: Yeah.

DT: ... Ken Cross and ...

BE: That's right.

DT: ... over at the attorney general's office.

BE: And, let's see, Cross, and--and the woman we had there, too, what's her name? She's- I don't think she's there anymore but she was excellent in thatarea. I can find out for later.

GK: Was that Nancy Lynch?

BE: Huh?

GK: Nancy Lynch?

BE: No.

GK: No?

BE: I ran into her just about- a few months ago.

GK: I remember seeing in some of the papers back in the '60's, though my recollection is later in the '60's, Connally and then Preston Smith with allthe- the controversy you were mentioning on the Fish and Game Commission--on who they were appointing to the Commission, who was favorable to the dredging companies, and you werebattling- even when you were in Congress, you were involved in trying to battle against the Fish and Game Commission, on the dredging issues and ...

DT: Oh, the Parker Brothers and some of the other ...

BE: Yeah, Parker.

DT: ... shell dredgers had really put in some pressure.

BE: Well, that's- that's the case I'm talking about. That was ...

DT: Yes.

BE: That was what was happening.

DT: I see. I read once that- that there were- the reefs were so extensive at one time that you could drive cattle across Galveston Bay.

BE: Huh.

DT: Did you get into any of this sort of historic- extent of it?

BE: I understand that that's true, and actually when my ancestors, who were on that- that deserted island when- nobody there and they were- man, the peoplecame on the shore and the ship was wrecked. And they got their wine and- and all of their goods and so forth ...

GK: Yeah. BE: ... and put up a tent, ...

GK: Wow.

BE: ... and began to dance in the- in the sand. They were tickled to death. It was a wonderful country at that time. It was in the early- December, andyoung men were hunting. They had their guns, and they went- killed a lot of deer at that time. The deer had apparently been- swam- swam across--just like you're talking about, walking acrossthe sea, in that area.

DT: I see. Uh-huh.

BE: And ultimately, they came back to- to the shore.

GK: Was this about in the 1830's?

BE: Eighteen thirty-four. December in the- in '34. They were--my great-great-grandfather was only about a year and a half when he came into the Battleof San Jacinto. He was at the Battle of San Jacinto. His wife was on what was called the Runaway Scrape, with a baby on one arm and a rifle in another on horseback.

DT: So how many ...

BE: I've got her picture in- in this house.

DT: She would've made a good statue.

BE: [Laughs.] Yeah.

DT: Dave and the gun and- running on the ...

BE: She was quite a lady, because she was- actually she had no background of- of wild areas because she was a noblesse- noblist.

GK: Um-hmm.

BE: Her husband- her family- her father was a Von Rader. And she married a Kleberg. That was my great-great-grandfather.

DT: I see.

BE: He was along with Sam Houston and ultimately, Sam Houston appointed him as one of the- leader of the Land Commission.

DT: I see.

BE: and she was- he was twice a district judge in Austin, Texas- Austin County, ...

GK: County?

BE: ... out on- county and DeWitt County.

DT: Hmm. I see.

BE: He was undoubtedly the most- oh, his name- Kleberg County was his- named that way, ...

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: ... because a lot of the people who fought in the Battle of San Jacinto were named in heads- the peoples of the head of- head of the counties.

DT: I see.

BE: His son, of course, was Robert Justice Kleberg the 2nd. He was the one that married--Captain King of the King Ranch.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: But my great-great [grandfather] was not a rich man. He was- but a very prominent one.

DT: Well, it seems like you've got long precedent and prominence to be concerned about Texas, and the Coast as well, so, ...

BE: Well, as a matter of fact, I ...

DT: ... you know.

BE: ... I- in my family- there've been four Congressmen in my family, in Texas.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: One was my- a liberal, myself, Democratic liberal. The oldest one was named Rudolph Kleberg, who was a supporter of Bryant, so he was pretty much inmy side.

GK: Um-hmm.

BE: But, Richard Kleberg was- was on the King Ranch. He was- he was kind of a- a rather conservative land man, of course, in that--questions. He didn'tlast but a- I think one term. And then, my uncle, Harry Wersbaugh, on the other side, was a Republican. But, he was very favorable to blacks and Mexican-Americans. He was one of the typicalLincoln Republicans.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: So, those were my ancestors and kinsmen.

DT: I see. Well, you talked a little bit about the sort of liberal side of your family and- and then I guess the more conservative land-owning- landbarons almost.

BE: Yeah.

DT: And I'm curious that in recent years there's been a lot of uproar about environmental regulation's effects on private property, and I guess there'sthe Sagebrush Rebellion and the Wise Use Movement that's come out of that and--pretty strong in Texas. I was wondering if you have any perspectives on how private property rights confrontsconservation and ...

BE: Well, I don't know. Well, actually, my cousin- my father's cousin was named Caesar Eckhardt, who ran the Norias branch of the ranch in thatarea. And he left most of his money for environmental- stuff at that time.

DT: Um-hmm. BE: He was one of the chairmen- one of the members of the- of the state authorities at that time.

DT: I see.

BE: A very interesting man. He- he actually ran- that was the biggest part of the King Ranch.

GK: So Caesar Eckhardt left his ...

BE: Caesar Eckhardt ...

GK: ... left his money ...

BE: No, he's Caesar Kleberg.

GK: Caesar Kleberg. He left his money to whom? BE: Most of- most of--he was a bachelor, and he left most of the environmental provisions at that time.

DT: The Kleberg Foundation, I guess. Is that ***?

BE: I think so. I think it's still in existence, if you're looking' ***, yeah.

DT: Sure, I think they do a lot of wildlife research on the environment.

BE: Yeah, he was- he was more active in- than anybody--put up more money than anybody else in the thing.

DT: Probably so. Well, so, in your view there's not a real necessary conflict between private property and- being a landowner and conservationissues.

BE: That's right. The thing is that- there was a tendency to utilize--other uses that- 'course he- actually, he went to Washington, D.C., and hemade- actually there was- there were two people at that time who died. One was- the name was- the daughter- the husband- the wife of Richard Clay- I mean, of- of Dick- of King, Captain King.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: And when she died, and then her daughter, who owned most of the King Ranch, they- she also died shortly between. And they- it would take- causes--thecost of- of taxes after the deaths cost about a million dollars at that time, so- Caesar Kleberg went to Washington, and went to the- the Humble Oil Company and they made a deal for using landin that area, and in that way they actually continued to run the ranch. But actually the King Ranch was more oil than cattle but--though they continued a very- and they still exist nowactively in the- in this land. And their holdings in the King Ranch include not only Texas but also things in Australia and--and Argentina and so forth, and some areas in Kentucky becausethey had horses there.

DT: I see.

BE: And some of those King Ranch horses won ...

DT: Um-hmm. Oh, yeah.

BE: ... runs and that type of thing.

DT: Those beautiful quarter horses that they developed.

BE: Yeah. Well, these were actually- these were ranch thoroughbreds.

DT: Oh, thoroughbred.

BE: But actually the cattle- the horses were a mixture of- of quarter horses who were- largely through thoroughbred ...

[Tape 1, Side B.] BE: But actually the horses were a mixture of- of quarter horses who were- largely through thoroughbred, the- and other- and the horses- the nature- horses,the nature- the old horses, ...

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: ... the mustang.

DT: I see. Wild horses.

BE: You know, my grandfather was- same- my name, Robert Christian Eckhardt. My grandfather went to the Battle of San Jacinto on a mustang. And he...

DT: A fast ride.

BE: ... he would catch his mustangs in what was called the mustang motte. They'd put up brush around- to hold the horses, and then roped these horses androde them over to the- over to Yorktown, which is- my great-grandfather. That was- it still exists. The Eckhardt Ranch commenced with- about 1850 and it still is- exists. Some of the membersof- are still there. Rudolph Kleberg Eckhardt is a doctor in- it's called Galveston but he- it's plain that he owns that area.

DT: I see. BE: But the interesting thing is that he wrote to- went to the Civil War. And when they lost and he was coming back, he- it was found that the horse wasin- had come to DeWitt County, Texas, which must've been at least a hundred miles away. Those horses were ranging all over that area. They were wild horses, and horses have- know--theyhave- know where they are. It's very much like dogs.

DT: Um-hmm. BE: Much more so, and horses- probably because they traveled so far. So, here came the horses. This horse, all scratched up with- with the saddles and soforth loose, came home. You can imagine what they thought.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: You know, and like the old poem, you know, "To hang him came the horses but there's- another came he."

DT: Um-hmm. The riderless horse, huh?

BE: Yeah. So, about- a couple of weeks later, his grandmother would come in the evening and- hoping that he was coming in. And it got- it got a littledarker, and somebody came up. You heard a- a whistling of an old German song. He was walking home.

DT: [Laughs.]

BE: It's a wonderful story.

GK: Yeah.

DT: It is. Well, I- I'd like to hear a little bit about your immediate- I guess ancestors, your- who your parents were and how you- where you were born andhow you were educated, or- some more recent things, too.

BE: Well, ...

DT: Your father was Robert Christian Eckhardt, is that ...

BE: No, my father was Joseph Carl Augustus Eckhardt.

DT: Yeah. And where does he live?

BE: He's dead now, but his brother- my brother has it- under that name.

DT: I see. But, your- your ...

BE: My father ...

DT: ... your family was living where when you were born?

BE: My father was raised in the- in the Eckhardt Ranch in the- in DeWitt County in Yorktown.

DT: I see.

BE: He was a- he was a pretty good cowboy, too.

DT: Uh-huh. He was a rancher, then, or ...

BE: Well, ...

DT: ... how did he spend his time?

BE: ... well, the thing- there were 11 children in my grandfather's family. Seven were men, and six were the women. All of the women had been educated insome way or another through those--playing- those various things at the schools there at that time. And then all of my- most of the men were educated very well at that time. They- actuallythey had a very light interest in- in matters like that. My father was a doctor. That was the youngest son, and the second oldest was also a doctor. And there was a- a banker, and a druggist,...

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: ... and a- and then two ranch men. My uncle Rudolph- my- Marcellus Eckhardt, which graduated at Washington Lee, that--he was- became- he was a- arancher.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: So all of these people were either ranching people or professional people.

DT: Do you consider any of them of- sort of a mentor or- as far as conservation concerns go, is there somebody who was an example to you?

BE: Well, I think the greatest of my family were the two Klebergs that--Uncle Rudolph- I mean, my great-great-grandfather, Justice- Robert JusticeKleberg and his wife, Rosa. They were- there's- however, there're some other things that affected me a great deal because my father was always very friendly with both blacks andMexican-Americans. I remember I ran into a dentist, a black man who did a lot of work, was with- supported me a great deal at that time. His name was Smith, and his son- and he- and I askedabout him, and I- and I know that he comes down that- south Texas there and 'course they're much- so many Smiths. He said, "Well, that was my uncle." And my father would ride- when a little kidhe would sit on the knees of the- of Smith, driving the- he was- it was part of the- of the farm area and the- Rosa's and the Ranch area.

DT: I see.

BE: And then, there's a wonderful story about one time, her best friend was a Mexican-American, who- was- they were both cowboys, they were cowboystogether. And--the two men were working cattle, and his father, the- his brother, who was a older man who ran the thing. The cowboy, who was Mexican-American, was a very able man, and heroped a cow too rough, threw the horse- hurt the cow- and Uncle Marcellus fired him on the spot. So he picked up and saddled- threw it over his shoulder. The horse was owned by the ranch, thesaddle was his- the rider- his son, so my father pulled off his saddle, threw it over his shoulder and walked with him.

DT: Hmm.

BE: And ultimately, the- and he used to write letters, when he was in Galveston, in Spanish to his friends. So my family was pretty close to blacks andMexican-Americans.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: And my father was- my mother was the same way. There's one story that was told about me one time when I was- I was working- I was in Congress at thattime and my mother was telephoning people and- support me and so forth and- something was going on there on the phone that sounded like somebody saying, "Well, he's O.K. on many things but Ithink he's too soft on this- this Nigra stuff."

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: "And I can't- I can't go with that position," and so forth. A friend wrote about that- I mean, heard that. My mother said, "Oh, that's my fault. Iwas raised as a Christian."

DT: What a great response!

GK: Yeah.

BE: [Laughs.] DT: Good.

BE: So that's sort of- my family was pretty much friendly to- black and Mexican-Americans, and actually that uncle- my uncle, Harry Werzbaugh, I was- atthe time was- I guess I was about 17- 16 or 17. I was a pall-bearer at that. And I- I remember how many, many blacks were in- and Mexican-Americans were in San Antonio at that time- all came tothe funeral.

GK: Um-hmm. ***.

BE: Yeah. So that's kind of my ...

DT: Well, that- that helps explain I guess your interest in helping working people and being a labor lawyer and ...

BE: Yeah.

DT: And, I'm curious how you made, I guess, the other sort of foray off into conservation. I mean, was there somebody who was a- interested in wildlifeor the outdoors that you ...

BE: Well, actually, ...

DT: ... you knew as a child or when you were growing up?

BE: ... I guess the order of my interests at that time- at about five years old, I was- I wanted to be a steel- I wanted to be a steam-rollerdrover- leader.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: Next I wanted to be- I wanted to be a fireman. And then I decided to go- to be- go into- to- into medicine, 'cause my father was a doctor.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: I didn't think there was much a premium for bullshit so I moved into law.

GK: [Laughs.] Your chosen field.

BE: [Laughs.] DT: Right, right.

BE: But the reason I did it- one thing is I was very favorable to labor matters at that time because I was concerned about- with the poor and withminorities, and with the- workers and so forth, so that's what- that's the reason I got into the law.

DT: Right. BE: Beside that, it was much more interesting. Law is pretty dull. When I first started in practice, I had to do every kind of stuff, you know,in- looking into deeds and business--stuff like that, a lot of it was dull, and a lot of it happened over a long time. You bring a law to suit- suit that extends for the- perhaps years. But myinterest was in- in labor because these things happened and- suddenly in a strike, for instance, you could bring an injunction. Somebody brings an injunction and stops a strike, and I learnedthat you could remove from the state to the federal court- you can move it to the court because it's federal law.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: And I was able to stop these things. For instance, I was representing- well, a good part of that area of- representing Southwestern Bell. That wasthe CWA [Communication Workers of America] or- at that area, ...

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: ... so that was the largest of all of the districts therein, from Missouri through Texas, and part- and Arkansas and Oklahoma. So that was a verylarge group, and then- and so I represented places all over that area, and also in Southern Bell and another CWA. I- I went there, too, and to Georgia and tried some of those cases, and inthe west, all the way in Washington state. So I traveled all over the country for that purpose, and it was very enjoyable because it happened quickly and effectively and I took a lot of- dida lot of arbitration, which can be done quickly, and I could do that on weekends when I- though I was in Congress, first- in the House--a representative at that time in Texas. So, I- I gotvery interested in law, for that- I mean, as- labor because it's helped me greatly in connection with- in politics at that time because- around 1965 was practically the hottest area in laborsupport at that time, and it continued through most of the time of my period in representing the Congress at that time. It would extend from about '65- and I was elected in '66 and thencontinued through 1980. That was the peak, peak, of labor operations, and it's gone down- constantly down with- to the point to- for instance, I represented places like C.W.A., which- mostly Irepresented them, but also the steel workers, and the ...

DT: Did you ever represent the Atomic and Chemical Workers Union, because I understand they were interested in environmental and worker healthissues.

BE :Yeah, I- I was in that, too. I was- I was in a suit in West Texas in that case.

DT: Then I guess you represented some of the oyster men, too, so did that introduce you to the environmental things?

BE: That and their view- yeah, yeah, that- that, and- and, let's see, the- I represented the Teamsters. The Teamsters are interesting people because theyare relatively smaller organization- business organizations. But they're the biggest- probably the biggest group of people anywhere today because they try these- they're- covered the wholearea. So I did a lot of labor law.

GK: Well, I bet a lot of the cases you were involved in did involve some worker safety.

BE: Huh?

GK: Worker safety issues and thus ...

BE: Oh, yeah. GK: ... some health and environmental health issues?

BE: Well, yeah, that- as soon as I got into- even before I got into the House of Representatives in Texas, I brought a bill to- on questions of safety inwork situations, particularly the case of the- the things that affected clean air and clean water.

DT: And you were involved with the Toxic Substances Act, weren't you, "TOSCA" [Toxic Substances Control Act]?

BE: Yeah, yeah.

DT: Um-hmm. Well, the- I'm curious how you moved into that.

BE: Well, that was my bill. I passed that.

DT: But I remember reading some interviews with you where you considered it your baby.

BE: One thing about it is it's this- it's probably the strongest people--bill of all because it has a procedural provisions that can cover these suits.So- only trouble is that after 1980, Reagan began to do- not follow any action at that time. Same with- case was Bush.

DT: Did you try to put a private attorney general provision in there, a citizen's suit provision, in TOSCA or ...

BE: Well, I brought several suits while I was in Congress, and added 'em to- as a- into a- what do you call it, a- persons who are interested with ......

GK: Amicus Curiae?

BE: Yeah, yeah

GK: But in this Act, you also did try to get private citizens the right to sue themselves, right?

BE: Yeah.

BE: Did that go in or not?

BE: Well, there were several things on the- in that area.

GK: It was a hard-fought battle.

BE: Well, on the whole, we were doing pretty well, actually. I have been working on something about the quality of the Presidency- or ofSchlesinger's- has a- recently a article- had a article about what, the quality of presidents.

DT: Um-hmm.

BE: And, I have been working on that. I'm trying to work out a- following each of the presidents, and which- in which group- how good they were, acompetent who ...

Video cuts out DT: I see. BE: And, Schlesinger and his father did a lot of that. They talked to- they had about 55 historians about the quality ... DT: Oh, I did hear about that. BE: And I've been doing that. He did. He only arranged which are the highest and lowest, but mine follows a whole period of the presidency. There aresix different areas and I'm writing about that. No. 1, the period of the Federal- the period of the Constitution itself, the creation of the founders, which- and if you list them and touchthem as one through six, one at the highest, sixth as the lowest, and then you can take averages in that. You take that from the beginning till about 1860. The rating of quality is about2.3. That's really high. DT: Um-hmm. BE: In the period from 1860 to 1700, [1900?], the rate is one of the lowest. It's one of the lowest. It's about 4.3 or something like that, except inthe case of Lincoln. But if you count it in along with Lincoln, too, it still makes it go very low because actually Clinton- I mean, Lincoln was- was really a Whig. He did of course awonderful thing about slavery, but before and after, the Presidency has gone well low. DT: Um-hmm. BE: Then the third group would be 1900, including- would include Teddy Roosevelt, Taft, and Wilson, and then it goes way up, quite up. It goes to about,oh, say, to five or something. DT: Um-hmm. BE: The next period was the New- the days of the '20's, and that's the absolute lowest. That's No. 5. But then from the New Deal- and I'm using rateshere concerning with the- these 55 people--not my viewpoints, ... DT: Um-hmm. BE: ... but these views. It's high up than the first, and the New Deal. It would- it's somewhere around 2.8, as quality- as quality. And that runs- thatruns down through- even Nixon- even through Nixon. DT: Well, speaking of Nixon, when we were driving over here, Gary was mentioning how when you were in Congress, that- that Nixon got distracted. BE: Yeah. DT: And, that because of his distraction with Watergate and Vietnam, you were able to pass a number of conservation-oriented laws that probablywouldn't've been able to've passed through, if he hadn't been distracted. I'm wondering, how do you rate somebody in terms of his neglect? I mean, if ... GK: [Laughs.] BE: Well, I don't speak of it- I believe the ... DT: ... you'd think he'd actually improved. BE: ... I believe the division goes through- through next- from- from Roosevelt through Nixon and then beyond that. But in any rating, Nixon had about fouror five positions- strong position which were good. But the main thing is that in the '70's, and when Nixon was there, and Ford, and- and Carter, and- Bush, and Clinton- in that period, therate is- is the closest worst in that group, which includes Clinton. DT: Um-hmm. BE: And out of their failures on these is- the rate there is called low average. And I think that's probably correct. DT: Um-hmm. BE: But the thing is that I'm writing about- something about this whole situation because, No. 1, this shows how these areas swing from one side of- toanother, top first period, low. Top, low, to high- top, low. DT: Um-hmm. BE: But the last state is- is low today, and I think that's a sad, sad- bad thing. One thing is, look at some things about why- what has really happened.There's not a single person- this would- I'm including Nixon, of course, see, so- I think there's only one Senator in that group who became President. I think only Nixon. Not a single Senatorat that time. The time before, it would include Kennedy, ... GK: Johnson. BE: ... Johnson. GK: Yeah, Nixon was the last senator who became president. BE: Huh? GK: Nixon was the last senator ... BE: Nixon- and then of course- after Roosevelt, you know, ... GK: Truman. BE: Truman. So there're about four senators. The thing is that we don't have experience--the federal experience is so low. Not that they- Clinton is abright man. DT: Um-hmm. BE: But he has very little background on federal matters, ... DT: Um-hmm. BE: ... either federal- either domestic or overseas. The thing about it is that he also didn't- knew very little about dealing with Congress. DT: Um-hmm. BE: And most of that time, it was Democratic. GK: Right. How were you able to deal with Johnson and Nixon, as experienced as they were in the Senate when they were president? How were you inCongress able to deal with them and get things through, like environmental and consumer laws? BE: Oh, sure. The thing is, he was- he's- well, I've been working on this question of industrial safety. And he brought in- not for me but he brought inthe- what is called, you know, the- the bill that- what it's called, in ... GK: OSHA? BE: OSHA, yeah. That was- that was my stuff. I started right in the beginning in my- and I passed it. I stayed there for ten years, and during thatperiod- eight years, and during that period, I was trying to get that bill through, and I wasn't able to do it. So in- when Johnson brought it in, within a year after ... [Tape 2, Side A.] BE: So when--Johnson brought it in, within a year afterward. And not as- not that I say that I did add anything with it, because the thing is that I wasjust a freshman and decided that I only had the one committee at that time and that had to do with my- it had to do with a- space bill, because that's all I could get. The next time I cameand won- got the best position possible in commerce. DT: Um-hmm. GK: Were you that interested in NASA and space issues? BE: Yes, I was interested, but the important thing is that it was a good committee because it had- they were- they used a lot of money at that time andhad some- some good movement at that time. But it was going down a bit at that time, ... GK: Yeah. BE: ... and the thing about it is that I had plenty of time--since there were very few let[?] bills, I spent most of my time on the floor. And I learneda lot more about Congress by being there instead of working in a committee. GK: Yeah. DT: The procedures of how a bill makes its way through now? BE: Yeah, yeah. Quite different in the- in the Commerce Committee. Commerce is just loaded with committee hearings and I- I became chairman of two of thechairmen, I- sequentially, you can't get- you couldn't have two of 'em. GK: Yeah. BE: But, it had to do- it included- in both of those committees, these covered more of the- covered more ... GK: Consumer? BE: No, the- administrative bills. GK: Yeah.BE: I mean, provisions.GK: Oversight. Yeah.BE: All of that's covered, including safety, and- not environment, but I was also in the- I was on the Interior Committee. I was not a chairman but I wason it. GK: Is that how you got involved in the Big Thicket issue was through the Interior Committee?BE: Yeah. Yeah, I really- I handled that, once I got it. GK: Yarborough had- had run with it until he got defeated. BE: Yeah, he worked very well in that, and then he was- when he left I took over and- and got it passed. DT: You make it sound just like- so simple and easy, and what was the full story of protecting the Big Thicket? BE: Well, it was a tough thing at that time. Actually, it was real lucky, because- what was that fellow who was- went to the Penitentiary in East Texas?Dowdy. Dowdy was in that district and covered that area, so he- see, he was completely out of the way. Even he- he was in the committee- in Congress, but I could run the show. DT: [Laughs.] GK: [Laughs.] BE: And then Wilson came in, and Wilson was a little bit more- he was in with lumber people. He was- he was- but I made a deal with him, a compromise, andwe got a bill passed- a bill that passed- I think it was 67- about 68,000 miles- I mean, ... GK: Acres? BE: ... acres. GK: Did you know Charlie Wilson before he got up there and ... BE: My--yeah, we were in Congress- in the House at the time. But, I just made a deal with him, and we made a compromise, and ultimately it's got to besaid that Wilson brought it up to about a hundred thousand- 100,000 acres. GK: Before it got to this point of being a bill in Congress had you ... BE: Well, I- we- we passed it.GK: Yeah. But before- before you got to Congress had you been camping in the Big Thickets or ... BE: Well, I'd been working with- with- with- and the people- they connected with Houston like that, and we were able to- to move toward the Big Thicket. And... GK: I know there are a lot of pictures in your files of you out in the Big Thicket, showing people around. BE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. DT: Well, was- was the interest in the Big Thicket a- sort of an aesthetic issue or was it habitat for wild life or was it recreation? What did peoplewant out of the park? BE: Well, at the wild area that- protecting the- that wild country DT: Um-hmm. BE: Let me show you a few things up here, and I'll be back in just a minute. GK: O.K.