Ben Figueroa Interview, Part 2 of 2

  • DT: It seems that politics often plays a role in these decisions about sites, and one prominent politician is Carlos Truan who has often spoken out about the environment. Could you tell a few experiences with him.
  • BF: Well, you know, there's a, a couple of stories, but the Senator, I think because of his background from a rurural community, Kingsville, Texas, in fact, was sensitive to the needs of the, the common man and the common good.
  • But I remember a story that he, that he told, and, and, you know, when, when you're involved in politics, there's the powers that be. Well, he applied to who it was, he applied for a job after he graduated Texas AandM with a BBA, he applied for a job with an oil company that was called, at that time, Humble Oil.
  • And they said, no he hadn't finished college yet, and they said, well, "You're not qualified, you know, you need to finish school". And, he said, "Oh, okay". So he came back after he got his BBA and he applied, and they said, "You're, you're overqualified".
  • So when he became a representative, Humble Oil had access to federal funds for various reasons, whatever reasons they receive federal funds for, and he caused an investigation and really opened the floodgates for Hispanics to start working with what is now Exxon. And, 25 years later, many of them are retiring after 25 years with Exxon, but he's the guy that opened that door.
  • And, and he's and example of, here's this little guy that said, "Wait a minute, you're not going to treat me this way". And they heard his call. And all he wanted was just a little fairness.
  • But, I think that that's the kind of guy he is and when it came to, to the corporate politics of the uranium company, he knew that and he knew we were the little people and he wanted to help us. And he did, he sure did.
  • DT: Do you think that this is sort of an instance of environmental injustice, of racism?
  • BF: Racism? No. In, in, in the environment? No, no. I, I don't think that, I think these guys just wanted to make a buck at the expense of our environment, at the expense of the, the humans that lived here, whether you were black, brown, or white, it didn't matter to them. I don't think it had to do with racism at all.
  • DT: Speaking of finances, eventually I guess, the market isn't right, or the ore runs out and these mines get shut down. I wonder if you could talk about the closure on one of these mines.
  • BF: Well, I, I don't, I don't feel that there's ever going to be closure because of the, the process of, of, of restoring water, number one. And, and also, the, the water cycle, it, it, it's something that doesn't happen in a year, two years, ten years,
  • it's a long cycle and it goes through a long process. So, when you talk about restoration to the way it was before, and of course, some of these mining companies claim that, that now the water is cleaner because of reverse osmosis, cleaner in, in what way, you know. I, I don't think it ever ends.
  • Restoration, I have to use the oil industry. I think we're suffering from it, there were no rules. We just, you know, dug wells all over the place and we're suffering for it, and we're going to suffer for many years to come. How do we clean that up?
  • Well, there, there's so many wells out there that, that we don't even know where they are that are left uncapped, for instance, or, or maybe even used to, to dump in, how do we know? And, and so, life goes on, you know, and we're going to suffer for it because there were no guidelines.
  • And, and I think maybe we have a little more in place now when it comes to uranium, but we still have the, the process of restoration. And I, I have to allude to Panna Maria and those places. When you have to go and take 18 inches off the topsoil, you know, come on.
  • A guy has, lives on, on a farm and you have to take 18 inches off the top soil so, and they say, "Either that or buy another farm, but not exactly like the one you've got". You know, it just doesn't make sense, it can't happen.
  • And, you know, we would, we would fight it anywhere, anytime. And, I think we still are. The STOP Group has, has taken up that challenge, the, the restoration process, and we're right there, you know.
  • We, we know what they're doing, we're advising them, we're and, and anything political that I can do, and I am a political person, by necessity, I try and use whatever little bit of influence that I've got, and it's not very much, but I try to use it if I can to save our environment.
  • DT: You spoke about the farmer, did you ever get any assistance in the course of the mine or the waste site disposal later on, from the landowners who owned the land adjacent to the mine?
  • BF: Some, some of them sold out, of course. They were they they the uranium company came in and leased, and leased, and leased, and leased, and of course, some said, you know, "This is, this is an opportunity for me, I've been farming, I've been dying by the vine here, you know. I, I, all of a sudden I can be rich".
  • But there were some farmers, like the Cumberlands, that, that fought back and they are very actively involved today. Yes, some farmers fought back, some didn't, some were bought off.
  • DT: Did all of them understand that they were leasing uranium rights?
  • BF: Yes, yeah, they knew it. They, they knew that they had to join the uranium company. They had to join the Chamber, they knew that. They may not have understood the process.
  • I can't imagine anybody understanding the process says, "Go ahead, go ahead, pollute my, my farm". You know, I don't know that that's the case, it's possible that they did not know. But money talks. And they sold.
  • DW: Letters talk too. I'm wondering if in California, from videotaping an anti-nuclear group by this Ward Valley proposed dump and the Native Americans protested, that the key person they had to get to was the Governor.
  • The Governor on a community-active television show says, "No Ward Valley". To the hearing, they bring the video of the Governor to the board of commissioners and they show him the tape. And you hear the commissioner off camera saying, "I don't have to listen to what the Governor has to say on some TV program".
  • That would be damaging evidence. So the Governor is the last word on that kind of thing. Is it the same in the state of Texas?
  • BF: No. No, not at all. No, no the, the process here ends with the appointees of the Governor. You know, we have a system, we have a system of agencies and at that time, the Texas Water Commissioner was appointed by the Governor, so it wasn't the Governor's last word. I suppose, that, if you call the Governor, and since he made the appointments, he would call up Joe and say, "Hey, Joe, we need to do this".
  • Obviously, I mean, that's the way politics work. But, but the decision, I can not say that, that somebody called the Governor, I, I don't know that they went that far. I think that they went right to, to the Water Commission Board because we have a system, we have a lobby system in Texas.
  • It's, it's ripe, I mean, it's they're, they're out there, they're out there lobbying and moving, and they're at every agency, you know. They're, they're working the legislators, and, and they're working the commissions.
  • We have umpteen commissions. I think that's the system that's in place. And, I know from, from the experience, like I said, when we first went up, there was no lobby. We had a good argument. They had an argument, we had our argument.
  • Why was the argument for staff and for the water commission so good that they denied them a permit the first time around, and after a little bit of politics, it changed. Why? We had a good argument. I mean, we wanted to save our water. And they agreed with us as long as there was no opposition. It changed. We know that. And from that experience.
  • DT: Did you ever meet any of these lobbyists to see how persuasive they are?
  • BF: Yeah. There, there was one that, that I met that came down and he didn't know who I was, but, he came down and his I forget his name. He was a big guy but his name was small.
  • That, that's what I remember. And he went and he told this, this guy that I knew at the King Ranch, he said, "What's going on? The, what are you all worried about? Who, who's causing all this rigamorole for you?"
  • And this guy that I knew, I turned around and looked at him square in the face and he said, "Just sit down, just si--. He didn't want to comment because I was sitting right there. And I wanted to hear what he, what this comment was from this guy that worked for the Ranch. And, and I, I said, "Tell him".
  • "Nothing" "Hey, these are little people, what are you worried about?" And I was laughing.
  • And, and this guy's name was Kellet, he's a friend of mine: Rod Kellet was the accountant for the King Ranch. And, and I laughed, I seem him every once in awhile, you know, he shows up at Senator Truan's annual or Solomon Ortiz's annual bash at Corpus and, and he's no longer with the King Ranch.
  • And I kid him, I said, "Hey, they didn't need you anymore, you're gone". He said, "No, no, I, I quite". I said, "Get out, they let you go, man. If they don't need you, they let you go, don't give me that".
  • But, that lobbyist said, "These are little people". He was right. We were little people in his system. Absolutely. We were crushed at that time. We from that time on, we lost battle, after battle, after battle. We only won the first round.
  • DT: Could you talk about the more recent rounds, this whole proposal to use the mine as a waste dump.
  • BF: Well, the, the recent, the recent work has been done by the STOP Group. And, they were permitted, no they were not permitted to, in a limited fashion, to use it as a dump ground, I think they went to, to Bruni, I believe that's what happened.
  • But the STOP Group had a lot to do with that. And, and since '92, '93, the STOP Group is the one that's really questioned what they're doing and restoration, and restoration of sites. And the latest correspondence I read is just like last month's, they posed some questions of TNRCC and about bankruptcy and what's going to happen, and do they have enough money to clean up.
  • And TNRCC came back and answered each one with half-truths. Yes, the money is there; no, they're not bankrupt; yes, they're still continuing; no, we're not going to let them do this, just, in a, are, are we in danger or not?
  • That question is not answered in this document I read. Is the water polluted or not? That's not answered. I think that's what they were asking. How polluted is our water, basically. Why can't they ever answer that?
  • DT: How long is ever? When do you think there will be closure on the site?
  • BF: Well, they were talking about the, the price of uranium. I don't know long they can hold out. But they put out a, a publication in the Dallas Times, I think the morning news, that, that they were having financial problems.
  • And it's just a, and so when, when somebody picked that up, the STOP Group questioned TNRCC and TNRCC assured that they had bond money in case restoration was, was needed. But as, they said, as it is right now, they have not gone under.
  • That, that's what they were saying. Yet, they were publishing in a newspaper just a month ago, that they were having economic problems. So, you know, they couldn't get a straight answer, you know. What's the answer?
  • We want to close and we might close, so when do we start restoration was the question, you know. What, what are you all going to do? Are they going to walk out and how much money is in there? Is it enough money? They never came down to the figure.
  • Is it enough money to restore? They said, "Yes". Well, how do you know that? "Well, because we know that that's enough money because we've had other problems". Come on. We don't know. We don't know if there's enough money there to restore the water.
  • I think the, I, I can't remember the figure, I don't know if I, I, I have a million dollars in, in the back of my mind, but I think it's more than that.
  • DT: Was it likely that they would try to restore the site before proceeding with using it as a waste site?
  • BF: Well, they're still mining. So, they're going to continue mining. If, if uranium were to shoot back up, they'll continue mining. They've got a permit.
  • So, that, that's not going to end. If they could, if they could do the only thing that can stop it right now is economics, not any process. Because, the STOP Group has asked for public hearings, has requested more, more information and this and that, and, and are fighting it.
  • They still have a permit. Those permits were granted under their model system, you know. So, and, you know they have this system where Site 1, Site 2, Site 3.
  • Well, when are you going to start cleaning up Site 1? Well, we're not through mining. Well, wait a minute, we don't want you to go to site 4 until you know that you can accomplish Site 1 effectively. Well, that's not the way we do it. TNRCC.
  • We know that they can they're, they're still mining, they're going to get through it. But we're going to give them unless you have something in particular that you're, you're, you're not in agreement with, we're going to let them go to Site 4.
  • Well, way back then, we were questioning why go to Site 2 when you haven't finished Site 1, what's the purpose? Why are they mining so many sites and they still haven't finished Site 1? We see a problem. There's a problem.
  • Why not mine until you finish Site 1, restore it, and then go to Site 2? Oh no, that's too, it's too costly for us, we can't do it that way. Well, those are the arguments that are that are still being fought today, this very day.
  • DT: How do you, I guess these mines sort of multiply and divide, how do you make sure that other communities don't have to struggle as you have and stop after you?
  • BF: How do we make sure other communities don't struggle?
  • DT: Yes.
  • BF: I don't know that, that they're not going to. I don't think there's a system in place that, that will prevent them from struggling. The system is, is, it was not meant for John Q. Public.
  • DT: Who was it meant for?
  • BF: Ah, the, the system that's in place there is to facilitate mining. So that they can mine uranium.
  • DT: In the business of issuing permits?
  • BF: It's the business of issuing permits. That system is, is not built for, for, you know, preserving the environment, it's there to facilitate uranium mining.
  • DT: Have you changed your expectations of government after dealing with TNRCC and some of the local and county?
  • BF: No. I've dealt, I've deal with government in, in many different ways and, and, you know, if you look at the number of bills that, that were introduced and passed, or if you look at them, every biennium you know, you, you start looking at, at this entire process that it's not perfect.
  • But it's a process, you know, and, and we, we try to function within it. I think we have a good system, but no system is perfect and, and we have to work within it. And, again, you know, one day, one person will jump up, and maybe Truan has jumped up.
  • He, he's tried to pass a lot of legislation, and not all of it has past. Maybe sometime the consciousness will seep in through osmosis with, with these guys that are elected up there.
  • You know, the criteria to be elected to, to any office is 18, age 18, and a citizen, you know. They don't require you to be a hydrologist, to be up there and making decisions, or a medical doctor. Although I think the last time I, Congress is the majority attorneys, State of Texas is a little bit different, you know.
  • I don't know that, that, I've seen the Senate, I don't know that Congress is that way, the House, but, you know, the criteria, if you go up in the State of Texas, you start looking at these guys, you know,
  • what, what, what drives them? You know, you need do a whole, you know, psycho history on them, you know, see what, what their purpose is because, I, I don't think the system will, will change drastically with the mentality we have right now.
  • DT: Speaking of mentalities and osmosis, do you think the osmosis is going in the right direction or is it reverse osmosis?
  • BF: Well, no, no. Let me say that, that there's been strides made, there's been advances.
  • DT: Do you think osmosis is improving?
  • BF: I think that it, it has improved because we have media. Where there wasn't an Endangered Species Act, there is. We do have a board up there, you know, we can go talk to them. I mean, it's not as if it's not there.
  • So, I have to say to some degree, you know, that it's there. Now, maybe the direction needs to change because it was, it was geared to, to serve, to facilitate the progress from their point of view. And, and you have to understand that some of these people are out there cutting lumbar, mining uranium, what, coal, whatever.
  • They're looking at it in terms of progress, you know. We need to progress, we need to build a, a bypass to progress. The mentality of bypass is, is movement. The Department of Transportation, another issue, they want to move people.
  • Well, if you're sitting in rural Kingsville and say, "Wait a minute, bypass means nobody's going to stop. I, I, I need somebody to stop at my grocery store to buy a few candies and things, buy some gasoline". This whole concept of bypass, well they'll, they'll argue with you and say, "Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, that's you're problem, we're only here to move people".
  • Well, come on, you know. Can we talk about it? Can we, can we look at this whole bypass I know we want to move people, but we also want to keep people in a town for a period of time to facilitate economics. We're not quite there yet.
  • We have some issues at hand right now that, I-69 super-highway is leading into Mexico, we're not on the same page. And we're not on the same page with the environment, but it is a process, it's there, we have to perfect it a little bit.
  • And, and maybe, you know, through time, I, I guess, we have, we have a constitution that we've tried to rebuild, I don't know how many times, but we've spent some mon-, some bucks on that and haven't accomplished that. And then we, we, we come back to, you know, every other year and, and try to pass all these bills.
  • And, and I, I think some of them just sit there, you know. You, if you pass a bill nobody does anything about it, then what's the use of passing a bill. But we haven't passed one that says, "Let's give the people a right to vote if a company can come in and possibly contaminate their water or contaminate the environment". I don't know that we'll ever see anything like that.
  • DT: Do you think that water contamination or some other issue is the big environmental challenge for the future. What would you pick out as being the big problem facing the next generation.
  • BF: In terms of pollution, or in terms of energy?
  • DT: Whatever sort of conservation issue.
  • BF: Well, I, I would say that, that water is at the very top. We, we, we're having water problems right now in Corpus Christi. We pipe water in, we have South Texas Water Authority because that's, that's unpredictable in terms of whether we're going to need it, but the assumption was we're going to run out of water.
  • So we created this South Texas Water Authority and spent a good buck on it. And now some people are saying, "Well, we might not need it". So, the attitude is, well, at least we have it. We don't have nothing if Corpus can't solve their problem.
  • You know, if they can't get water down to, to their area, we're not going to get water. I mean, you know, we're down, down this way. I would say water is, is, is a major problem. And, and, I, I don't know that there is any body other than the people that ride the rainbow warrior fighting all those other people out there, you know, when, when you start looking at, at pollution issues and, and people that are fighting it, they're just not in the news a whole lot.
  • They do movies about them after they kill them, but that's about it. I, I don't know who's out there, what, what they're doing. I know I read a lot about our forests. I read a lot about the water issues, energy issues, nuclear issues. I guess those are the ones that are the most important, in my opinion anyway.
  • DT: We've discussed some of the problems and the ills and the pollution and so on, perhaps we can look at the flip side of this. Are there special spots in Texas or elsewhere that you like to be outdoors, pieces of nature that you've enjoyed visiting.
  • BF: In Texas? DT: Yes. BF: My own backyard. Yeah, I go fishing right here at Baffin Bay, I fish there, my son fishes there, my father fished, my ancestors that lived here for three generations. We enjoy the, the wetlands, we enjoy the birds. We, you know, now hunting is managed. You can't hunt. I used to be able to walk a few yards from where I lived down this way and I could go hunt deer because we'd make tamales when we killed deer, you know. And, you can't do that anymore.
  • It's managed now. You have to pay $300-$500 for a deer if he's got over 14 points, you know, or ten points, whatever. So, we don't hunt anymore. But, but it's here, you know, it's protected. That's really protected, I, I suppose because of the money involved, again, economics.
  • The ranchers all have leases now and there's more game wardens than I can begin to imagine. But when I was a kid, they, they just weren't around. And, I think that there's a lot of environments in West Texas, I, I know that that has been a site for, for nuclear waste and the people have fought it.
  • The Pecos area, I've been in that area. I've been up in the hill county, that's protected. The Edward's Aquifer is protected. I hope they keep on because those are super places to be around. The Guadalupe River.
  • Vic just went, as his last vacation a couple of years ago, he just took his whole vacation down, I think he went down Guadalupe, you know, rafting all the way down. And you can't do that if we pollute these places. So, we, we visit the outdoors. It doesn't cost us anything right now.
  • DT: Do you remember where you were on the first Earth Day?
  • BF: The first Earth Day. The very first Earth Day, I believe that, gee, we celebrated many Earth Days through a student council because we were sponsors for a student council and we did that for 15 years or more and we were at the high school because we did that often. We did a lot of environmental projects with the student council.
  • DT: Do you remember reading Silent Spring or, at the time, was that part of your curriculum?
  • BF: No, no, no. At the time, I'll tell you what we did a lot of, we put in a lot of oak trees. We, our projects all had to do with planting something, adding something to this environment and we didn't do too much reading. We, when we worked with the student council, we took them out and we, we planted a tree, we visited the we, the wet lands here, visited Baffin Bay, things like that.
  • DT: Do you have any advice that you give to young people, the student council members, or to others on how to take care of the environment?
  • BF: Well, we haven't been with the student council sincesince my wife was the principal involved in, in, with students. But, I, I suppose that my advice to a young person is to garden as much as possible. And we do that. And, in fact, if you went into my backyard, you'd see a super, super garden. And, we do that from the heart. I mean and-
  • DT: Vegetable garden?
  • BF: No, it's not a vegetable garden, it's just different plants that are indigenous to our area. And, we've got a pond and, you can almost take a, it feels like a sauna bath out there sometimes, it's something that we just, like a jungle our own little jungle.
  • DT: Do birds come in?
  • BF: There are thousands come in there. We've got bird feeders all over the place, yeah. And I think I would encourage people to, to do that. Maybe it's therapy for us, I don't know. But we like it.
  • End of reel 2080 End of interview with Ben Figueroa