Carl Frentress Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: Let's resume, we were talking about some of your efforts in the waterfowl program in this district. Can you talk about some of the major efforts that you put forward?0:01:34 - 2128

CF: Well, as I said, we set forth to-to-to build a program and a lot of our activities, we were to use the duck stamp funds to do things, and there was a chance to buy a lot of land so we have some acquisition that-that went on and then also to develop better habitat on existing wildlife management areas. And we did that through their cooperative program with-with Ducks Unlimited. It's called MARSH which is an acronym for Matching Aid to Restore States Habitat and we get cost sharing from that and it-it makes the money go further.DT: Can you give an example of a MARSH project that has been pretty successful?0:02:14 - 2128

CF: Yes. The first one in the state was at Engling Wildlife Management Area that's-that's named after Gus Engling who was a biologist that was-that was murdered there. He was the first biologist on the area and it's just-it's about thirty miles from here. It's on Catfish Creek system, which is a tributary of the Trinity. And we had a chance to improve some habitat on those with kind of a flooded bottomland sales and enhancing some marsh environment-marsh and shrub swamp. You just-it's a construction project to better control the water. And then we had several acquisitions that were-that were done, a lot of those were on the coast using duck stamp money.

But my job was to-to assist the wildlife areas, to assist the acquisition. Dr. Dan Moulton was in charge of it in those days. Alazan Bayou at Nacogdoches is an example of one of those places.

And then also on Alazan Bayou we have another marsh project, Richland Creek Wildlife Management Area which is real close to Engling, actually in the Trinity flood plain, had marsh projects and we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, two hundred to four hundred thousand dollars to-to enhance or restore waterfowl habitat. At Richland Creek a lot of the bottom had been drained because they were using it for pasture and so what we did was restore the wetlands to functional condition for waterfowl with that.DT: Did you build levies, install pumps?0:03:51 - 2128CF: Yes, yes, right, to trap water, whatever we could do. Also...DT: Can you tell the story of [Gus] Engeling's murder, the biologist?0:04:02 - 2128

CF: Not as well as Hayden can. Hayden actually got a marker up but he was a biologist there and-and they were doing some work and he had known someone who was-who was-he'd heard shooting and they were-he supposed that someone was poaching ducks and he went off to look for this fellow and apparently encountered him. No one knows what happened but, you know, he was shot and he was hidden by the person and then there was a long man, you know, a search for his body. Some of the-the people that probably you have talked to or will talk to were there. If you'd talked to Charles Boyd, he can tell you because he was one of the members of the search party. His body was found and then they ultimately found the poacher who shot him and he confessed. I believe that he was a-he was one of the first persons where forensics were used. There was some wounds on the trees where the shot charge went and-he was shot with a shotgun. And then I believe this-this man was one of the last persons electrocuted in the state but it's a-it's a sad story for both sides. This person was-was the kind of0:05:31 - 2128people that we've talked about being on the land-deriving-he was hunting ducks to feed his family. And so I think there's stories to be told on both sides. I don't know it in detail but-but I know some people who were there, you know, during the-the episode. And Hayden and Engling bothered to-to make it a mission of his to get a historical marker up and to get the story told and get more recognition for-for Gus Engling. So that was done. And-and he would be better able to tell the story than me, he knows it in detail. Miss Lisa, his widow, still is employed with the department and, anyway...DT: You mentioned that you also were involved in acquisition of waterfowl habitat. Can you tell about the sort of places that you would look for and why they would be important to protect?0:06:29 - 2128

CF: Well these-the acquisition effort, I mean, this was another part of the [Texas Parks and Wildlife] Commission's direction to get out and-and build this waterfowl program. And so willing sellers-and it was known that, you know, we were buying land and willing sellers would contact us. Dr. Dan Moulton was in charge of the acquisition in our program at that time. And so what our role in the field was to-to be the eyes and ears for Dan. We would do field inspections and a lot of biological reports, ascertain if the property actually had value and if it was something that we wanted to put into the program. Prior to that-my first assignment on the program was to-was to update a, what we called a white paper in those days, but it was a guidance document of where the program would go. And we had some priorities set on what we wanted to buy and where we wanted to buy it. So there was direction and we had some, you know, we knew what we were after. Bottomland hardwood systems obviously were things that we were after here or degraded wetlands, things that had a lot of potential for being waterfowl habitat. And-and then also looking at using those-those funds for upgrading existing wildlife areas that we had.

Another activity in that was to-to engage our field staff with more waterfowl work. When I came to work, a lot of the people-they didn't go into wetlands. They didn't own rubber boots, they didn't fool around out there, there's snakes and mosquitoes out in these places. And it was not very much of a program that the actual field personnel across the board did and we've come a long way since then. These people are in charge of some of these places now.

We have an ongoing waterfowl program, they advise a lot of landowners. They all own rubber boots and-and that landowner assistance thing was another deal that I did. We were to assist landowners with technical guidance and ways that they might want to improve their land. We had no money to help them in a cost sharing way, but we could give them technical advice.

And another big program in that was, as I said, I've always been interested in wood ducks and we set up a wood duck project with, again, it was another misunderstood program where the-the action kind of covered up and-and the whole mission was lost. My goal was to try to see if we couldn't enhance our production to the point that there would be a surplus of birds to hunt0:09:14 - 2128and if we were producing our own birds, then maybe we could hunt them, for instance, during the Teal season before migrant wood ducks got here and this would give East Texas hunters something because Teal are not as abundant in East Texas as on the coast or elsewhere and it would-it would help our stamp sales, it would give more hunting opportunity. And we set off to do that. We did it through a nest box program and we gave out nest boxes and we've given out probably close to twenty-five thousand nest boxes since 1986. And I'm still having trouble building a database to take to the Fish and Wildlife Service that they would listen to, but we're working on another paper and analysis of a lot-of nine years of data now to do that. But that was a-a special program.

But kind of the end result of the-of the goal got lost in this nest box program which sort of turned into a blue bird-blue bird house deal. And-and we were giving out so many boxes and dealing with so many people to let-all that action caught the eye of-of some of the higher level people and they forgot what we were trying to do. But nonetheless, it was a lot of activity and we've certainly helped the bird.DT: You mentioned that another way you helped private landowners that are interested in increasing and improving their habitat is through your work on the Wildlife Exemption...0:10:37 - 2128

CF: Yeah, House Bill 1358 or Proposition 11, it has lots of names. I think Proposition 11 is-is what's used nowadays. That's an interesting story and it's one that I'm, I guess I'm really proud of. Probably it's-if there's a high point in my career or something I've done, it was that. And-and that law and that opportunity for landowners is-is one of the most significant points of conservation progress in this state. I truly believe that. Hopefully the appraisers and-and taxing entities will understand the opportunity. But I have a very close friend here who's-he's a lot younger than-than I am, but he's a good friend. His name's Lee Tackett. At the time that I was district biologist and shortly after becoming a waterfowl biologist I knew Lee, soon after I got back here I met him. I had known his father who used to be county agent here. Anyway, he was an agriculture appraiser and we were-we hunted and fished together and I had a land loan on this place here with him. And I began to tell him what I was seeing in terms of-of land taxes being a disincentive to landowners. You could get an agricultural exemption and reduce your taxes greatly if you would impact the habitat. That is, put goats out here or clear it. We-we had case records that-that were used in the-in the discussions of appraisers telling landowners, "Well, if you'll go bulldoze this place, we'll give you your exemption, or if you'll put goats out there we'll give you your exemption." And that's a...DT: [inaudible]0:12:30 - 2128

CF: That's right. And-and that can be as much as-as fifteen times more-in this county at that time, it was fifteen times more for market value appraisal than for agricultural appraisal. And I began to realize this and I talked about it with Lee and I, you know, I just kept it to myself and-but I-I talked to the tax people in Austin and they told me that the first exemptions, the reason that the exemptions were granted in the sixties in the first place was to protect the rural countryside and the rural way of life. And, all of a sudden, we're seeing this revenue generating motive becoming, you know, pretty strong.

And I spoke at one time to a commissioner who came down, it was Peter Beck. He came down to a conference and I had a chance to talk to him privately and I told him my little story and he said, "That's interesting and you're right and the time will come, keep working on the grass roots with this and but right now the legislature is grappling with school funding and this is not the time to do it." And so I didn't and-but I got stronger and I guess a little bit more vocal. And I had to be careful because we-we have a-a very strong admonition about going to a legislator and selling a program. We can't do that, it's against the law.

But Lee felt strong enough about it and we had a-a very good legislator here as a representative, Clyde Alexander, who still is a representative. And Lee asked him for an appointment to discuss something that was on his mind and asked that I come with him. And so Clyde granted us an interview or an opportunity to talk with him, an appointment. And he had no idea. He was totally unaware. And Lee and I told our story and he-when we left his office he said, "I promise you I'll do something about this." I heard some things as this went on because I kind of-I remained in obscurity to a certain extent. But I heard that there was other people talking about similar things so it could have been concurrent, I don't know. I do know that Clyde had no idea and that he suddenly became a big factor in this. He did help introduce the legislation.

He asked my department to assign me to assist him as-as a technical consultant and I did that. And I'm very proud of being part of that because it's brought to landowners an option to do something else, to make their choices about how they want to use their land.

And it set in place a tool that can be a motivator to0:15:36 - 2128creativity. And there is an example of what I'd like to explain about that. There is some opposition to this, they see this as tax evasion. But there are people-and that's a traditional, you know, the Scotch-Irish hammer the land type deal. We're not going to let them get away with that kind of thing, putting a blue bird house out there and getting away with it. Well, that's not what this is about. This is about true habitat restoration and protection.

And as an example about creativity that certainly wasn't, in-in my mind, it may have been in somebody's mind, but-but in this county there is a substantial subdivision or ranchette type thing, it's a pretty good size ranch. And when that ranch was bought, the developer, the first thing he did was secure a wildlife management exemption and it works like this. There is a small homestead site, about an acre I think or something like that, in the middle of twenty or twenty-five acres. But the whole block has the wildlife management tax valuation on it. It is a deed restriction that is firm. And so you're allowed to move in there and build a house and that has the homestead, that's not under the wildlife management thing, but the surrounding property you must maintain and participate in this overall plan.

And so, what I'm trying to say, it's this kind of thing that's going to be important to preserving biodiversity and maintaining and-and-and either ameliorating or stopping or somehow or another positively affecting urban sprawl because it is the little places that count. The big ranches, the big places, they're going to be able to serve wildlife habitat for a long time whether or not they have an agricultural exemption through ranching or through wildlife management. And wildlife management is merely a kind of agricultural exemption. But it's these-this innovation in these areas0:17:39 - 2128where it can be applied that's going to save wildlife habitat in areas where it would be coming under a lot of threat. And I see that-that subdivision, that large subdivision that allows those people to live out there on a little piece of property and the rest of it they're getting tax advantages on and they're motivated to keep that habitat in place by their tax advantages. That's very powerful. I mean, that has kept and preserved a piece of wildlife habitat that would have been chopped up and who knows what done with it. And so these are the kinds of things that-that the argument needs to go that way.

I know that there are appraisal districts that are fighting it and sometime before or right after, I'm not quite sure, we went into Proposition 11, which was a referendum to approve this kind of thing. The-the legislature issued to the appraisal districts, you know, a letter saying, "We want you to-this is a law and we want you to do this and we want you to do your job, you know, valuate the land." And Clyde told me that-that Proposition 11 passed 60/40 in favor and he felt that was some kind of testimony to environmental concern. I don't know whether that's the true thing that's in the heart of people, but-but the vote went that way and this is a-an extremely important opportunity and-and I hope we'll grow on it.

The-the governor established a conservation task force this year and the report has just come out and some of the items in that have to do with incentives to landowners to keep doing positive things and we need this kind of approach, a lot of flexibility and the choice to do what you-you think is right in land use and not be steered under the threat of-which is substantial-the tax threat.

So the-the wildlife management tax valuation for me being part of that, I don't know whether I-I know it came to me in my mind on my own thinking it out, I don't know that I thought it up as the only person in the state. I think the record would probably show that's not true. But I do know that-that bringing it to Clyde, being part of bringing it to Clyde and-and seeing him act on it is a-is a real accomplishment. I think for me as-as a biologist to be part of that kind of thing and deliver up to the land and to the people something that can truly be effective and-and it is effective.

We have a substantial amount of acreage going under this opportunity now and I have my property here under that and most appraisal districts I understand take this in stride and go on about it. If you-you get your plan in and try to do what's right, they're going to stick with it. So I think this has a lot of consequence to the future.DT: Mentioning this place here, can you describe some of the projects that you have in mind for wildlife?(Talking at same time)0:20:39 - 2128

CF: Well, these things are-are kind of weird in-in terms of-the law is quite simple and there are seven practices and these are huge blankets. The titles are huge blankets, and you have to do three of the seven. I tried to do all seven. some of them things like being like census, but I don't have any deer here to census. So we would census herps or non-game birds or something like that. But habitat control is one of them and that's a lot of what I have going on here. Supplemental cover is another one which almost-for a biologist, is hard to tweak these things apart. So the habitat control, off to the left here, is I have-there's a-that's not a real fence, it's a simulated fence. And that fence just has one wire on it and birds will perch on that. Their droppings will carry the seeds and sooner or later we'll have woody plants proliferating running along that fence. I have brush piles out here, I plant stuff everywhere, you know, there's-in the drought...DT: What sort of things do you plant?0:21:49 - 2128

CF: Woody-woody species, shrubs and native shrubs and trees. There are some redbud behind us there that's made it. I had some Chinquapin [Oak] but the drought-the drought is really rough on this sandy land so things don't make it. I move cedars in to make cedar breaks. I planted some pine to give some shelter for winter birds and-and that kind of thing, lot of brush piles. The-one of these days-and I don't-I don't have to do this all at once as long as I'm following my plan. One of these days, I'll have a-a pond out here for the thing that's called supplemental water. But the-the-the law and the regulations are quite flexible and there-there-there's a lot of opportunity there. So, I'm-I'm glad I was part of that and I-I think it will have long ongoing consequences for wildlife habitat in the state.DT: Are there some other efforts on behalf of wildlife that you might like to mention that you've been involved with?0:22:54 - 2128

CF: Well there's one other I think that-I guess when I look back in my-my philosophy of things is that society tends to forget what a natural resources base means to our well being and that's why I try to urge everybody. I think that-that-that youth should be brought up with this ethic, all youth, whether or not you're hunting or fishing or whatever. But you have a strong appreciation and understanding of the eco-ecological consequences of natural resources and we're part of ecosystems. And, in fact, we can't exi-exist without these-this resource base and yet that tends to be overlooked.

There's a real good example of some dual purpose things here that's-that's happened. The Tarrant Regional Water District which is a water supplier for the City of Fort Worth, built Richland Chambers Reservoir and as part of the mitigation for that, we got Richland Creek Wildlife Management area. They have embarked on another kind of water treatment activity that biologists have long known, and certainly in-in my work, is that the ecological functions of marshes are-is to clean water. And so Tarrant County is spending several million dollars and will spend several more million dollars building marshes, created marshes on Richland Creek Wildlife Management area, which will serve as duck habitat and-and non-game bird habitat to pump water from the Trinity, under their reuse permit, into these marshes and to let it flow through natural plant communities and be purified and then picked up and simply pumped into the lake and they save about two-thirds of their water treatment bill by doing that. And so this is a marvelous example of a recreational value here and whatever other spiritual values and other things that come out of going to marshlands and then a strictly utilitarian thing, that is cleaning the water.

But we tend to forget about how-how natural resources, the land cover and all of the-the biota that's in there, we call it biodiversity now in its habitat, contributes to our well being. They-they-they give us better quality air, water, they control climate. And now we're beginning to see things that make us wonder, you know, there's this ongoing debate about global warming and reasonable fix. But-but when Yucatan Peninsula catches fire, we see smoke in East Texas, then you are beginning to understand large scale ecological consequences. When Malaysia catches on fire and they can't put it out, then there are things going on there that-that are bigger than we've ever0:25:41 - 2128seen before.

And so I guess that's kind of the message of-of an insight from a career to advance forward is-is that we all need to be thinking about, there's more here than just hunting and fishing. Our very well being has to do with the fate of how our resources are handled. And I actually can foresee into the future in-in my mind that-that entities, government entities, whether it's a city or a county or whatever it is, may be required to purchase and maintain a bioreserve just for these kinds of services to society. Nothing to do with-just our survival services, so that these bioreserves sit out here helping whatever population is there in terms of humans continue to exist.

And-so I think-we'd talked about challenges to-to future conservationists whether professionals or-or just people who are devoted in that way. I think it's going to be a broader scope and a-a deeper understanding. And we have more of that now in terms of the level of understanding and the technology that's associated with it, but I think we're losing general awareness. I can see even a dwindling of woodsmenship in hunters. They're urban people who-who-and-and their kids who are-who don't even know what's going on when they go to the woods to hunt. They want to, but they don't even know how to. And myself and my-my peers, when I was a child, we were effective predators. We knew how to do what we set out to do.

And-but-but the appreciation level and the-and the-an awareness that's motivated to the level of taking action, that is, vote0:27:33 - 2128our way, in the future. Changing attitudes and behavior is done from a child up and then it must be maintained. So I think that where we could serve professionally is-is being able to demonstrate strongly but yet transfer that information into a form that's-that's understandable by the general public and that can be embraced and taken on.

And then secondly, society urging that education of youth follow that trend and absorb that sort of thing and then continue right on through adulthood as-as a steward. You-each-every citizen, I mean, I say that-that-that stewardship of natural-natural resources is a-a component of citizenship. That every citizen should be concerned with this kind of thing. Not just so we can go hunting and fishing, but so that we can have the same kind of-of viable society that-that-that I've had and that we-we've had and known and that it can persist for a long time. Because we do know that they can happen. We know how to manage systems and-and we're going to get a better idea of how they work one of these days. But if we don't have the actual organisms and the rest of the environment out there where it can happen, then that will not happen. And every society that's crashed in history likely has crashed because of-of abuse, overuse, or some failure to be good stewards of natural resources around it. and I-I think that's-the record would show that that's the case too.DT: Could you give some examples of civilizations that you think have fallen because of overuse of their natural resources?0:29:17 - 2128

CF: Some of the middle east civilizations, you know, it's-it's pretty clear. You know, Ethiopia was a forest, there were cedars in Lebanon. Some of these things may be climatic, but they're certainly known to be abused. The South American civilizations, we're now learning that they pushed pretty hard on-on their natural resources. Their whole culture evolved to the point to where to maintain some of the-the-the rituals or the morays of their culture, they had to push their resources to the limit and-and they exceeded their capabilities. So that's, I guess that's what I'm talking about is-is over exploitation and losing the-there are African countries that look at-at other African countries besides Ethiopia that look at-at wealth in terms of-of livestock owned. And that leads to quick land abuse and-and those-some of those societies are having a difficult time maintaining themselves while their people live in, you know, very tough conditions. So, that's what I'm talking about.DT: How do you make the case for protecting natural resources in a state that I guess is twofold, that Texas has long had kind of a pioneer attitude and then also it's becoming increasingly urban where people don't have that connection to the land that someone like yourself might have.0:30:51 - 2128

CF: Well, that's what Pete Gunter and-and Max Oelschlaeger-they-they look at it kind of as-in the opposite or mirror image of that and they call it the frontier spirit, which I-I think as I read their works, the frontier spirit is sort of a, "We're going to do what we want to out here," and-and is not necessarily a situation that has a-it derives from manifest destiny and over exploitation and using up all these resources. Within this frontier spirit certainly there are people who have a lot of land ethics and-and I think a lot of landowners in the state are the best stewards.

The-the problem here is that-is that that land ownership component of society is-percentage wise, when you think of percentages and the vote is dwindling, their power is dwindling. They are-they are beholden to what the urbanized society and-and urbanized society is not as aware. They're fulfilled by other things and completely unaware of ecological functions that-that they're getting just for free. What's happening in-in these river basins as they-as floods go down through river basins and floods are held up or water is cleaned or whatever. You know, Houston or Beaumont does not-they do not-they're not aware of that. The forest in East Texas as it moderates our climate, has something to do with our air quality, most people are unaware of that.

So that's why I say youth education and making it real-it doesn't take much to connect young people with the outdoors. David Sobel in his book called, Beyond Ecophobia says, you know, "We should ask our-our children to learn to love the land before we ask them to protect it." And the best way to do that is just to get them into their backyard. If you learn to love your vacant lot or backyard or park, you can make that jump to rainforests in South America. If you don't make that connection in talking about rainforests in South America and the loss of those in a classroom is meaningless to the child because there's no connection. It doesn't make any real sense to them. Once they learn to love the land deeply and-and-and fulfill themselves in their own development, I think that's a very powerful part of education that's not there nowadays.

We look too much to some of the classroom strengths and not so much personal direct hand on-hands on experiences. And so I guess that's how I would talk about it, how I would challenge people to do it is to-to make it a stronger0:33:44 - 2128part of-of education and education is not just completely classrooms and lessons. There are things to be learned from personal experiences and-and that free creativity that-that a developing youth has. Once you get to that state, then the-the young adult and-and the more mature adult is ready for a deeper approach to education and learning and-and then being an active steward. And I-I see that as a strong answer. I know there's a lot of activities going that way.

Conservation agencies have been criticized for not doing that, but remember where our funds come from. It's sort of like being a non-game biologist, you know, we were taking about earlier that there were a lot of people that-that were doing game management work and were criticized but they were paid for by-by hunters-their activities. So they were doing their job and we-we will learn how to-to bring funding to cover the whole gambit of natural resources education and management one of these days I hope.DT: You mentioned that one of the ways to introduce kids to being stewards of the land is to teach them to love a piece of land and I was curious if there's a tract that means a great deal to you that you enjoy visiting.0:35:16 - 2128

CF: Well there is. Unfortunately I can't see it anymore, it lives in my mind and I'm thankful for having spent a lot of time around it because I-I do live there in my mind a lot. I can visually be there right now. That tract of land is-is about a couple miles away from here and it's over in the bottom of Lake Athens. It was my grandfather's farm that had this huge bottomland forest and he owned a little piece of it and a creek ran-Flat Creek ran right through the middle of it and-but yet the whole countryside for miles either way was, in those days, folks just kind of went, you know, and it wasn't a problem. There wasn't-there wasn't a huge concern about trespassing because you were more or less welcome wherever you went. And so I can remember a lot of places on my grandfather's farm in that bottom that were-were a lot of fun and I still think about it.

So I guess a favorite place for me is-is-is any good high quality bottomland hardwood forest, I like being there. There's a piece of land on the Neches River that's-that I can be there right now in my mind and it's still there and I hope it stays there for awhile. Big systems, big river bottoms, big creek bottoms, big trees, all that elegance that's in a bottomland hardwood forest. Those are the favorite places for me, I like it.

I like being out here on this sand hill because there's a lot of family heritage and a whole lot of other things that I can't get out, but-but I feel comfortable here and-and so this is a favorite place. It's not very pretty but I have lots of challenges and it's-it goes back a long way and I-I think it will stay in the family for a long time in the future. So, I'm not one of those persons-I'm glad the-the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is up there and-but I'm happy. I'm a very provincial person, I like being in East Texas, I just like it, I like being right here. I understand the country, I understand the people. And so in a region, it's my favorite place. And then there's a whole lot of small places in that that I like to be but, yeah, that's it, being right here or-or in a river bottom forest or here on this land.DT: Well, thanks for sharing that with us and teaching us a little bit about the people and the land around here.0:37:41 - 2128

CF: Well thank you. Yes sir.DT: Thank you.End Reel #2128End Interview