Tootsie Herndon Interview, Part 1 of 2

TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEWEE: Tootsie Herndon (TH) INTERVIEWERS: David Todd (DT) and David Weisman (DW) DATE: February 21, 2006 LOCATION: Spofford, Texas TRANSCRIBERS: Jenny Gumpertz and Robin Johnson REELS: 2357 and 2358

Please note that the recording includes roughly 60 seconds of color bars and sound tone for technical settings at the outset of the recordings.

DT: My name is David Todd, I'm here for the Conservation History Association of Texas. It's February 21, 2006 and we're in Spofford, Texas, which is south of Brackettville and we have the good fortune to be visiting with Tootsie Herndon, who is the mayor pro tempre of Spofford

and has also served on the board of the Kinney County Ground Water Conservation District and is a member at large of the Middle Rio Grande Economic Development Council and has been involved in a number of fights against proposed projects out here,

ranging from the Texcor Radioactive Waste Site to the Adobe Industrial Waste Site and then most recently proposals to explore a lot of groundwater from this area and, for all those reasons, is a wonderful person to talk to and I wanted to thank you for spending time with us.

TH: You're very welcome.

DT: I thought we might start by asking if you could tell us why water might be important to you and protecting it?

TH: Well, I was born and raised here in Spofford and Spofford has always had a serious water problem. And Spofford has been without water for thirty days at a time. So, you know its pretty devastating to go to your faucet and there's no water, you know, to wash dishes or use the commode or anything.

And during the Adobe fight we were cut off of our water supply due to the fact they wanted us to rescind the resolution against the Adobe and I had to call their Air Lackland-Laughlin Air Force base and they brought tankers in here and we went down there and the only water we got is what we went down each family and got.

We needed drinking water, we had to drive, you know, twenty miles round trip to get drinking water and for thirty days, that's a long time to not have any water. So, I was born and raised here in Spofford without any water. My dad had a little wagon he put two barrels on and we'd have to help him push this wagon across the railroad tracks to get water, you know, to bathe and everything.

I'm very concerned about all this exportation out of Kinney County until they have good science data to let us know how much water is in Kinney County to pump, you know, as much water as they're wanting to export out of Kinney County.

DT: Could you tell us a little about Spofford and Kinney County? How does Spofford get founded originally?

TH: It was founded as a railroad town. My daddy and, my grandparents moved here and my daddy ranched here and my grandfather worked as a boiler maker on the steam engine so that's how they originated here and lived all their lives here.

There's about four generations of us, lived here for a long time, course I left for several years but then I came back and built my home here in Spofford.

DT: Well, maybe we ought to just jump right into it and talk about some of the projects that might have forced some pretty severe changes on Spofford and Kinney County. I think the first project that got proposed was the Texcor Low Level radioactive waste site, I believe back in the early nineties. Is that correct?

TH: No, they came in 1988.

DT: 88, I see.

TH: And they came and met with the Chambers of Commerce and different organizations first before, you know, Spofford ever knew about it. I think this was in the making for several years, you know, before we knew about it.

And they kind of got the blessing of the county judge, you know, because they come in with their, I guess swift tongue about money, you know, and you're a poor community and they offer you jobs and they offer you a hundred thousand dollars a year, you know, that's pretty impressive to some of the people, you know. And, when they come in they say "Oh, its just a little N.O.R.M., you know, it doesn't hurt anybody or anything you know, but I guess

DT: What is N.O.R.M.? TH: Huh? DT: What does N.O.R.M. stand for? Is that Naturally Occurring Radioactive Waste Material?

TH: Yeah, but see they put, these licenses are real funny. They use, you know, that term but that terms means, you know, they can put several different types of waste in these facilities and that's where it's so bad till you, they really don't know a whole lot about N.O.R.M., you know, at this time they didn't.

DT: Where was the N.O.R.M. coming from?

TH: All over, all over the United States. DT: And these were from mines or from

TH: Well from mines and different, you know, that creates radioactive like, you know, the oil fields and all of that. That's, you know, natural occurring and that's where it was all coming from.

DT: Oh, so some of this was pipe stem, drill stem from fields that had radioactive strata? TH: Yes, yes DT: Okay.

TH: And see there wasn't very much known about it at the time. I think Utah was the only one that had one of these facilities, to my knowledge.

DT: And who is proposing to dispose of this here?

TH: Texcor, Charles Salsman was their, I guess you'd call him the one that was promoting the idea to put it here. You know, he came in pretty smooth talking, you know, and we had a meeting here after we learned that some of the people of the like the Chamber of Commerce and the bank president had kind of endorsed it and everything.

So we really didnt know much about it but my thought was I didn't really like the idea one half mile from my home here, with all the traffic from the trucks, you know, and our roads aren't too good anyway, you know, and then it'd blow that stuff will travel at least thirty-five miles from one of those facilities there so and they wanted to

DT: How did they pick this particular part of the country?

TH: Well because it's, we're a border region. They targeted the whole border with all, from their radioactive waste because its slow education, no political clout in Austin. You know, they figured they can come in and you're country people and you're going to believe what they say, you know, and they pick up on just, I think more or less Hispanic, mostly Hispanic, you know, and just low education people, you know, that don't have a whole lot of education and no money, of course that's the number one problem. When you fight these big companies, you have no money to start them and so they basically, low cultured people, I guess I'd put it like that.

DT: What was this facility that they were going to put this N.O.R.M. in?

TH: They were going to dig, the way I understand it, a big hole and put a liner in it and then just dump all their junk it.

DT: And how much stuff were they going to put in it, how many tons or cubic yards, do you know?

TH: I don't really remember exactly but I think I've got it there. I don't remember but it was going to be a huge one and if they'd got that permit, it was going to be eight thousand acres worth of toxic waste.

DT: Well, tell us about the fight, how did you organize to oppose this?

TH: Well, I didn't organize it, I was just here in Spofford and this rancher lady, Madge Elizabeth Belcher, she's the one who got it started. We all kind of met, about thirty people in the Episcopal church and then started a name for it. You know, and the more we divulged into it and realized what they were trying to do, put all this junk in there, then we just started, well it was hard at first because we had no money and see that's the big deal with these big companies.

They've got so much money and there's so many lobbyist in Austin till they, you know, the Department of Health was the one then, not the T.N.R.C.C., [Texas Natural Resources Conservation Commission] they listened to the big rich investors. You know, you can't trust none of the politicians in Austin.

I'm just going to be real honest, you cannot trust them, you got to get out and fight your own battle. First you've got to get community support. Without community support you cannot do anything. The first deal you have to do is get community support. Then we had to get resolution out of the Nine County Region, that's Middle Rio Grande Development Council, you have to get that before they'll make a stand.

They don't really like to get involved in none of this but I got on that board and we kind of put pressure on them. Then we got resolution from all the nine county regions. Then we got the Senator Judith Zaffirini. We got Bonia. We got some of our congressman involved in the fight.

You first have to get community and then you have to get resolution from surrounding counties, you know, like Eagle Pass, Del Rio in the nine county region, that's what we did.

DT: Well, what would you tell them because I'm sure they saw this as a facility that would provide some jobs and maybe some revenue.

TH: Well, because I think the first thing we did we tried to educate them also that, you know, that this was a big very big project and there was a lot of land down here, you know, that was going to be utilized for these huge massive dumps and from it coming all over this United States now, you know, we just convinced them what we thought that it was bad, you know, and then there's a fault zone laying here in Spofford, see.

And that's what we were afraid of it would contaminate and it would it would go all the way in the into the Rio Grande River and then that's when we started going over meeting with the mayor and the President Salinas of Mexico and got them involved in our fight. And they helped us a lots in this Texcor fight here.

DT: Well can you talk about some of your meetings with these different municipalities or with some of the Mexican representatives?

TH: Well, see, there was a La Paz agreement and that's what helped us a lots that they could not put any massive dump on the border within forty miles, you know, and Spofford's within forty and that's that's why I think Mexico was just real concerned that they were going to contaminate more of the Rio Grande River because, you know, it's already contaminated with all the maquilla waste.

That's why there's so many babies being born down on the at the Laredo and Brownsville and everything without any brains. It's due to the maquilla waste being put in the Rio Grande River.

DT: Can you explain a little more about that? I'm not really familiar about that.

TH: Well, there was a hundred cases diagnosed down there and now I read an article in the San Antonio Express about they're saying that at Laredo, there's a lot of that the babies being born and that the corn tortillas is contaminated. Well, you know, they watered the corn with the Rio Grande water there. And I'm I'm a firm believer that that's all that toxic waste that's that's being pumped into that Rio Grande River. That's my opinion and I've always thought that.

DT: Well, so the Mexican Government was concerned that the La Paz agreement was getting violated

TH: They violated, yes. DT: Because it was being polluted already TH: Yes. DT: By the maquilla waste and then TH: They did want all this from all over the United States being (?).

DT: More from the N.O.R.M. waste? TH: Uh huh. DT: I see, I see.

TH: So, they helped us a lot. You know, but it was a hard struggle. We we marched on the both bridges and stopped the traffic there, you know, and had our signs. And I used to wonder, why are people protesting? You know, why don't they just go and talk to the government? Well people, when the government won't listen to you, and they stand to make a lot also out of all these lobbyists and everything, you just have to you have to just do your own protesting.

DT: We see you said that the government didn't always listen to you TH: No DT: Well what would happen? You'd call a representative and what would they say?

TH: Well, you know, they, well (laughs) they they tell you, Well, you need to talk to this one. We don't have no control over it; you need to talk to the E.P.A or the Health Department. They've already been bought out, they're in bed with the investors, so what can you expect? You know, they didn't help us any.

DT: Well, did you see signs that some of these investors or lobbyists had already spoken to the representatives? TH: Yes. DT: How could you tell?

TH: Well, you go to a meeting, you know, when they had all the public hearing. You could just see their interest lied with the, with Texcor. You could just see it. You don't have to be a lawyer to know when when they (laughs) what side their sympathy lies on, you know. And they need a place to dump things and where would be a better place than here with the river coming right through here too. We have the railroad to contend with all the the stuff being dumped here. See this was a perfect place for their their dump.

DT: When you said that the representatives wouldn't listen to you, so you made picket signs? TH: We made picket signs. We went to Austin. DT: Well, what would the signs say?

TH: Don't dump on us, you know, like the one with J.B. about BFI and Texcor. See Brown at first was going to, first they were involved as a partner with them but when they saw so much opposition they was smart enough to get out of it. They didn't stay, you know, but oh it was just don't dump on us and Del Rio opposes it and, you know, it was it was a lot of signs (laughs) made, you know, during that time. Even when we went over there at the Civic Center we had a lot of signs and a lot of people speaking out against it and you just got to show your anger.

You know, you just got to be angry about what they're doing to us because they will, like Charles Salsman, I even presented him with my my brothers flag that he was killed in Korea and I felt like they were taking our freedom away and the and like the health department said Well, you don't have any rights they don't care if you you oppose the dumping.

You have to have science to back you up, you know, and a lot of things for them to deny a permit, you know. They're not going to do it because you said I don't want it in my back yard. Really a citizen, you really don't have a lot of rights till you all band together and united we stand, divided we fall and, you know, it's amazing that this town, Kinney County, defeated two massive toxic waste dumps with the money they had, it took a lot of praying and a lot of God's help that that helped us that opened doors for us, you know.

We baked, we made tamales, we sold tamales, we did bake sales, we did anything imaginable, garage sales, recycled cans from the dump, we did everything it took to make money, you know and J.B. spent a lot of money personally and so did Madge Belcher. We spent a lot of money personally to fight the dump but you just got to band together and just and sometimes the good people does win, they do, you know. We're living proof that you can defeat a lot of money and a lot of lobbyists up there. I think Texcor had 62 lobbyists up there.

DW: Quick question, you talk about the coming together, it sounds sort of easy. I have to imagine there must have been some folks in the community who thought they were going to make out ok, I meanand

TH: Oh yes. DW: So not everyone was on your side in the beginning, were they? TH: No but there was so muchand. DW: You can tell the story to David.

TH: There was so much going on, till the ones that really believed in Texcor was very silent except my own brother, my sister-in-law. They firmly believed it and we didn't speak to each other for 6 years during the Texcor fight because they thought it was going to bring a lot of jobs, you know, and everything so we lost a lot personally to Texcor, you know, and because my brother got Cancer not too long after that and he died from cancer but we did get back together but for 6 years, you know, we didn't speak and we lost a lot.

They they really disrupted our lives I'd like to say, you know, because we had to send out so much material to the president to the vice president the to the Governor and anybody we could talk to that would listen. Some of them would run from me especially, they would actually run from me they didn't want to talk me, you know.

But you just got to get so many people involved, you know, it just it took us a long time to get even community support because it looked good to these people but like I told Charles Salsman, for him to offer us a hundred thousand, that's nothing for the amount of money they would make for their permit and they were speculating in the permit. They weren't going to stay stay here. They were going to sell that permit and it was worth about five hundred million dollars.

DT: How did you find out about the permit application and the facilities? TH: Well our, finally when Jim Saunders was our first attorney before we hired Rick Lowerre and he's the one, you know, just told us so much about what it was going to contain. Till you get attorney and somebody to help you, you know, you have no idea, you don't know what you're up against, you just so naïve.

And see, when he first come here he said If there's any opposition, we'll leave. They just lied and we were so naïve we believed them but they they're not going to leave, they see lots of money. This was a ideal place for them to put that that dump. And see they come back the second time that's what so weird, you know, they didn't give up the first time after all the millions they spent. They come back the second time.

DT: Can you tell us about some of allies that helped you in the fight against the Texcor?

TH: Well, we we had all the nine county regions, Del Rio, Eagle Pass, Dryden, and every place. See they was trying to put a big dump up at Dryden too. See it looked so obvious they just was picking all the border regions to and Dryden defeated them also, you know, by us all banding together and then they picked Sierra Blanca for nuclear waste during the same time. And in fact the former mayor of Brackettville and I went up there and made speeches to them because they were about to give up and I said You can't give up, you know. And the first meeting that we ever had, we went to Austin and I'll never forget it.

Panna Maria, where they had that big dump down there at Panna Maria, their citizens was there. They were they were appearing before the Senate because they had they had agreed and let them in there and that waste was coming out and it was contaminating their milk, the farm land. Their little dogs, when it rained would lose their hair and die and they couldn't imagine what was going on in there. And they so they were testifying up there so they had to gather up $75,000 dollars out of their own pocket to make this company open up to see what was going on.

Well, your health department hadn't gave them a permit and it was around 13 years I think and what they were doing was dumping it on the ground. And that's why I had no use for the health department and so that's what they were trying to do is to is to clean up that facility there and come and dump it on us and they hadn't even renewed their application or anything.

That company was bringing it out of France, Germany and every place and dumping it on Panna Maria. And there was a little lady there and she followed me out of there and she said I want to tell you something, ma'am, you don't have the contamination. Said a lot of our babies are being born down there, the pregnant women and said they'rethey are deformed and everything, Y'all dont have the contamination.

I'm going to give you advice, fight with every breath in you and then when you want to give up, you take a second breath and you fight more. And you just, you write to everybody, you get anybody you can think of that will get involved with you, to help you and said don't ever give up. A lot of times I wanted to give up, I'll be real honest, because its a tough fight.

You send out so many letters and flyers and you do this. You take one step forward and you'll take two steps backwards but you just keep fighting and ask God to help you. I did, I said God, just open doors for us and help us because well do the work if you'll show us the way that's the only way we succeeded. I will will say that.

DT: Well, was most of your help local folks or did you get any help from non-profit groups or from people in the agencies?

TH: Well, no mostly our help came from Mexico, you know, that and then there was a fight over the easement in the land down there with Joe York, Jr. And he he sued them at the last there because they wasn't going to let him have a easement through there and that was his land and that's what helped us a lot in the Adobe fight. This was later on in the Adobe fight, but mostly we had people from Mexico come over with signs and everything. We took buses to to Austin and we demonstrated up there, like I say we went and did the bridge.

We, every time they have a public hearing here in Brackettville, we demonstrated against them, you know. And we just just fought hard, you know, and it took a lot of time and effort and it got so we couldn't discuss Texcor when we went to bed because then we'd be up all night, you know, because this was our home, you know. We we built this house and and we had reporters come down here from Dallas and every place. We did attract a lot of attention in the T.V. and everything.

DT: Well, maybe you could tell us about what the media and news, T.V. and radio?

TH: Oh, John McCormick, he he works now for the, the San Antonio Express, he worked for the Dallas Times and he'd come down here and we'd had a meeting here and he he just started all his negative views, you know. Well, you can't do this; they're not going to listen to blah, blah this. And I said You know what sir? I think you ought to go back to Dallas, with your negative views. We don't need to hear your negative side of the deal. So I told Madge I said, Well I guess I blew it because I didn't have no, you know, I said We have rights as citizen.

I still think that in the long run we can defeat them. He said, No, they're a big company and it's going to be hard for, you know, the size of the community to defeat them. So then he come back, oh two or three, four, years later and worked for the San Antonio Express, he says

You remember me? I said Yes, I sure do and he says, I said You're the one from Dallas, the reporter I kind of chewed out he said Yeah, you did. (laughs) And he said I got to thinking about all the things you said and I said Well, you know what? They're, they're being pretty tough, they might succeed. So he kind of come down and did a lot of stories for us, you know, and in the Texcor fight, now Adobe we didn't get the attention we got in the Texcor fight.

DT: Well, let's not quite get there yet. TH: Okay.

DT: In 1993, Texas Natural Resources Conservation Commission rejected the permit for Texcor. Did you have any expectation that was going to happen?

TH: Well, we were hoping but see Ann Richards was the governor then and one of the big investor was real close to Ann Richards, and we were so afraid that, you know, that that I think it was kind of a deal made that denied the permit here and put one out some other place at Andrews. Now I was told there was a deal kind of cut there.

DT: Some sort of a swap betweenand? TH: Yeah. DT: A site here and then this current one they're putting in at Andrews County?

TH: Yeah because Mexico was coming down real heavy on them about the La Paz agreement and I think they just didn't want to take on Mexico, you know, about the La Paz agreement. And I think that's the one thing swayed her but see, these politics are so entwined with all the investors and the lobbyists, you have a tough time as everyday citizens fighting them.

DW: It seems like you had a chance to go head-to-head with like this Charles Salsman guy, I guess the chief executive of the TH: Yeah, he was the chief.

DW: Well, what's it like? Most citizens go against big companies never get one-on-one within five feet of the chief executives, so now you got him in your sights TH: Oh yeah. DW: How do you go at him?

TH: Well, it we just he came and he had meetings all over all over Kinney County, you know, but they had a lot of secret meetings before anybody really knew they were here, that Spofford did. Spofford was the last one to hear about, you know, Charles Salsman and he was very suave operator. He was and he had a P.R. man, George Bacarni was even more, you know, and they know how to work the public. Now you have a hard time till you convince like I say if you don't get your community support you're lost you're lost

DT: What sort of public relations pitch would they make?

TH: Oh, about they offered a lot of money and, you know, jobs and they went to the 4-H, you know, and bought the champion pig, you know, or calf and they just did a lots for the community. Of course they offered, dangled all this money before a lot of people and they they offered some of the commissioner money, also, you know, and I the judge took some money from them.

And you just have to just keep fighting one day at a time, you know, and then you wonder how you really did beat them, you know. But you just and Madge was a real wonderful person that she knew how to deal with Austin, you know. She was very well educated and she went up there. She had some friends up there in the in the health department, different places that kept her informed and then she knew Ann Richards real well too. So that helped us out a lot.

DW: And I recall you said that you had a first lawyer and then you later had a second lawyer? TH: Yeah.

DT: Could you tell us the difference between lawyers and what the role of a lawyer is and how it might or might not work out?

TH: Well, the two lawyers is you have to have attorney. When you get in the big court fight with the hearing examiner, you got to have attorney up there and then you've got to have your own expert because they've got their expert telling you how safe it is down here, you know, how what good ground and of course Spofford, no water here.

So that was a real plus in their favor. Your lawyers in turn hires experts to tell your side of the story and then they brought in the Spofford Fault that separates Edwards Aquifer, you know, here at Spofford because it just turns. So, without attorneys you're just you don't stand a chance because they keep you informed of what's going on in Austin, you know, or wherever you fighting, like in California or anyplace and they can find out a lots, you know, about the type of waste.

That's what you got to worry about is all the types of waste they can put under one permit, you know. They can tell you N.O.R.M. permit then when you really look there's a lot of waste coming in under that N.O.R.M. permit. And they're speculating on the permit so they don't care who is going to clean up the mess. See, that's number one, you superfund, that's just a big laugh, it ended up in court. There was 2,000 dumps for them to clean up.

They didn't clean up any because it bogged down, the attorneys got it all. So who after they closed it up, after 60 years, who is going to clean it up? Who has the money? You don't think your government is because they're sure not.

DT: Well, following up on David was just asking, you're saying that it was really key to have an attorney involved becauseand TH: Oh, you have to have one. DT: It was such a complicated procedure but you had two attorneys, one after the other, why did you change from one to the next?

TH: We didn't change. We just needed another attorney to help us because oh, massive depositions. You won't believe the paperwork that it took those two lawyers full-time to do all the paperwork. It's unbelievable what they the paperwork, the boxes that you have.

DT: And you also mentioned you got some technical help on the geology of the area? TH: Ahh, huh. DT: What's TH: Well, we had one geologist, what was his name? His last name was Berlango from Mexico. He'd come over and help too, you know, and then we had to have different experts too, the salt in the water, you know, and how it runs and it's a big deal.

DT: What were some of the geologic problems they found? You said there was a Spofford Fault?

TH: Well, that's what they finally proved there was a Spofford Fault and see when Mexico had their earthquake over there, J.B. went over there one of our neighbors said that something was wrong with this pipe line. And J.B. went over there because he had no water at all and there was a big hole where the pipe had separated and they think it was from the the Mexico because that's when it all took place. It left a big hole down side of the road too, you know. And we think that when Mexico had their their earthquake that it affected Spofford here also, you know, because it just something separated the pipe.

So we went on that, you know, and and then and if you got a fault right close, you know, all that contamination is just going to go right on in and if that, you know, like Camato and then all the way to Brownsville in time, you know. And they were wanting to bring in 45 trucks per hour down to this dump that was on their permit. That's a lot a lot of tonnage.

DW: You say that the Chamber Of Commerce types, who think they're going to make a lot of money on this deal, are in favor of it? TH: And the bank. DW: And the bank, and you and the citizens aren't is there anyway they retaliated against you locally? Is there anything they'd take out on you that somehow just to behind the scenes or even in front of the scenes trying to push you out?

TH: Well, in the Texcor fight, I don't remember them doing much personally to Spofford but in the next fight with the Adobe, a lots was doing personally to Spofford, you know.

DT: Well, maybe this would be a good time to go towards the Adobe, which I think was was started in the mid-nineties, is that right? TH: Yeah it well Texcor I think was denied, if I remember correctly, 93 and I think the Adobe came in 95 or something like that, in the nineties DT: And this is a TH: Well, maybe earlier than that. The one year later, I think, after the Texcor permit was denied, then Adobe came. DT: And is it Adobe ecosystems and it was to be a and

TH: Well, they first come in here with it being a regional well it was kind of a tradeoff with, I think, with the attorneys and and the CARE group that after the permit was denied, if we'd let a regional landfill come in here, Spofford never agreed to it. When they called us over there, we never agreed to any type because we didn't want no part of the dump because you can't trust them anyway, you know, but Madge and them kind of agreed with Jim Saunders and them that that we wouldnt put up a real big fight if it was a regional landfill. And so Spofford never we never agreed to no regional landfill even.

We would just kind of wait and see, you know, deal and I said Well, a regional landfill wouldn't be quite as bad as toxic waste, you know. Well anyway then they came on the picture and it was the same company with the same investors, same attorneys and everything that was put in the regional landfill.

DT: In the same site? TH: In the same site and what they were going to do is probably use but I can't imagine them wanting to do it since we beat them on the, you know, the sites on this. I don't know what they're idea was unless maybe they thought we wouldn't fight them. And then they brought a man from Mexico, Joe York, Jr., the one that owns all the land down there and Tim Ward, the former judge, he brought the this Spanish guy here.

They said it's not going to be nothing but a small regional landfill and I thought Mmm and then they had this Mexico investor and he was sitting right there and I asked him, I said Are y'all going to put maquilla waste in here? Oh no no we're not going to have any maquilla waste nothing. But when I saw the Mexico investor, I knew they had to be maquilla waste.

There's no, there's no money in a regional landfill people! You cannot even make any money off regional you have to bring it in from all over and then what nobody didn't want to get involved in the Adobe fight, you know, they Ahh, its just a regional landfill the commissioners of Brackettville and the city council, nobody wanted to get involved.

So I started and I thought well, what can I do? So I said well, I got to go educate the people. I'm going to get a petition signed. So I went door-to-door and got a petition signed. So then I took it to the county judge and thats Tommy Sergeant the main one down that's the judge for all this.

He didn't want to listen to me and he didn't want the commissioner to do a resolution. So I had the time and I talked to him and everything and they still wasn't real convinced, you know, that it wasn't real good. It was a regional landfill and it was going to bring money in so, at first, I didn't get a resolution signed.

So I kept on, you know, and the more Rick Lowerre was our attorney and he investigated what they were trying to do. And finally I got a friend in Fort Clark, her name was Jean Struthers and she started putting letters out about the maquilla waste and all of that, you know. And I really didn't have a lot to go on but I just had a hunch that what they were trying to do.

So then I felt like the Lone Ranger, you know, I thought oh my gosh (laughs) there's nobody wanting to help me, they all think I'm kind of crazy, you know, and everything. But then the preacher that was so against us in the Texcor fight, he kind of got on our side and started he wasn't real comfortable with Adobe because they had no former experience or nothing.

His name was Jim Speman. So he didn't really know a whole lot so he kind of got on my side and then Jean Struthers, then I got the mayor of Brackettville. She kind of got on my side and we started putting out what we knew and finally Rick Lowerre sent a deal they were going to hospital waste and they were going to bring maquilla waste and just all kinds of toxic waste, you know, from like radiation from cancer, you know, the old machines, you know, that they do radiation.

They were going to dump all that here so, I kind of finally got started getting Kinney County involved, the people, you know, got them behind me and they'd come and put pressure on the judge and the commissioner. I got a resolution finally ought of it. Then I went to the city, of course Spofford got their resolution in and then the next thing we knew Tommy Sergeant called the Texas Ranger on J.B. and I and said that we had defrauded the government out of grant money and that I had took money that I earned and he wanted an investigation into it for the City of Spofford for the CARE group.

So the Ranger came here and investigated J.B.of course we were audited in every grant we got, you know, from we still hadn't got any water yet but we got water money for a new pipelines. And then he investigated us and of course he'd come here and ask me What did you do with money?

I said, Well, which which are you talking about, what I earned for the City of Spofford for a pump? because Spofford didn't even have a pump and we had to earn money because the budget had six dollars when J.B. become mayor. And so but, I had give it to our city secretary and she deposited it in the bank at Brackettville.

The money that I earned for CARE, well, I turned it over toto Brett Trent and Debbie Trent because they were the one kind of handling all the money. So, nothing ever come of it, they investigated Middle Rio Grande and us, you know. Then they got the some of the people stirred up here. So, then they filed on us that we never had election, we just kind of appointed because there's no salary. There's no money here, you know, to pay anybody so, we just for a year Spofford just appointed mayor of city, whoever wanted to serve that had a good back, then that's how we got our mayor.

So, then we faced that, you know, and then they sent a letter they were going to sue me for some article I put in the paper but I was always very careful to state the truth and nothing else, you know. But, and then Joey York calls us one morning says see we had got water while waiting for our grant from Fort Clark Springs through his pipeline that run through Spofford, he agreed to let us use his pipeline and then he'd get water too from Fort Clark.

Well when Adobe came along he wanted that that to sell all that land 8,000 acres to him. So, he called J.B. one morning and said Well, if you don't rescind your resolution and Tootsie give up her her fight against Adobe, I'm going to cut your water off. J. B. told him Well, I guess you just better cut the water off because were not going to rescind no resolution.

So he did then we were without water for about a month and then the C.B.G Grant kicked in and then we got emergency pipeline just on top of the ground till we could get our our water in place, you know. But Spofford suffered a lots through all this fight with these dump people, you know, because see Spofford refused to let them have water.

We were about to get water when Texcor come on the picture but then if we'd got water, the whole town voted not to do it until we get rid of them, you know, because we didn't want to let them have water. So, then in turn in 98, Adobe goes, buys a bunch of land over there adjacent to Fort Clark, its got about eight artesian wells on it.

So, then that was the master plan to when their permit was denied to sell water out, they got with a few farmers and ranchers and that when they started in on this water fight. (misc.)

DT: You've been telling us about this Adobe facility and I had read that the site was going to be something like 100 feet tall, is that correct? TH: Oh yes. DT: Over 200 hundred acres in size?

TH: Yes, they were starting out with the first permit. They it was going to be 100 feet in the air. And then it would contain some municipal waste and then toxic waste and everything. And we were right down we didn't have no money, this community had just gave to the Texcor fight till there was no money left, you know. Then we seemed like we couldn't get Del Rio involved too well again. You know, they didn't want a massive because they they spent a lot of money in the Texcor fight.

And then we thought about getting the Air Force involved but, you know, you think you'll pick up the phone and get the Colonel over there and get an appointment uh. It don't work like that. And so I Rick Lowerre said I think we're just going to have to give up the fight.

We had a meeting over there with Don Parks and of course Madge was already passed away and Debbie Trent and Brett and they were ready just to make the best deal we could with the Adobe. And I said No, Spofford is not going to make no deal with the Adobe. We're going to keep our resoour, what do you call it? I can't even think now. DT: Resolution?

TH: Yeah, to to, you know, we're not going to rescind our resolution against them. We're going to stay and pat and if they come in here if CARE wants to just and I hollered at Rick Lowerre because I was real upset too but he just couldn't work. He said There's no money, we're just going to have to some...

Well, the next day Spofford was all irate about because we'd fought so hard and everything, we just didn't want to give in to all this waste from all over the United State and the maquilla waste is the worst, you know.

DT: And it was supposed to be about 5,000 tons a day? TH: Uh huh. That's how much it was going to be.

And so, I went to Brackettville that morning. We all come together at a little place called the Crazy Chicken to drink coffee and all the way I Lord, you got to help me, you got to open a door today, do something for me, and this is the honest gods truth.

I prayed all the way to Brackettville, got there and was talking, you know, our usual talk about Adobe and the dump. This this black person was sitting right across from us, he was taking it all in, he says Ma'am, are they what are they trying to do to y'all down there? And so I went through my spiel and he says Well, they put one by my mother in Louisiana and said Boy that's a bad deal there.

Said they'll put anything under a regional landfill, said that's what they do. They come in with three or four different types of waste. I said I know it! And he says Well, what have yall done?, and I told him about the bit about the attorney and everything, that we didn't have no more money and I needed to get Laughlin Air Force Base involved because they were going to have, you know, waste, household waste and everything which will attract the birds and everything and get in those jets and it causes mamassive damage to jets.

He kind of looked at me and smiled and he says I'm going to give you two names, said I'm retired out of the environment deal in Del Rio, can you believe this? This is the honest gods truth and he said I'm going to give you two names to call in San Antonio but you don't dare tell nobody where you got these two names.

So, the first one I called she wouldn't even touch it and the next one, her name was Peggy Stone, and she says Well, ma'am, I don't know what to tell you. I said Well, she said You need to hire an attorney. I said No, I don't need to hire an attorney, we got one, we can't pay him.

What I need is appointment with the Colonel at the base over here because it's going to cost the Air Force a lot of and that's when they were trying to close Del Rio and a lot of the the bases, you know. So I said They will be on the hit list if it goes in and two or three planes, you know, crashes.

So that kind of got her attention, she says Okay, let me see and Ill call you back in thirty minutes. And I said I hate to tell you ma'am if you don't call me back, I'm going to call and bug you because I'm desperate. So she said Okay, and in thirty minutes, she called me.

She had J.B. and I appointment with the Colonel over there, that's how we got the and we I we went over there and met with the Colonel, stated our case, what they were trying to do and everything, and then one thing led and I gave them Rick Lowerre's number.

And that's how it all come about and they got involved and I think basically they're the ones helped stopped it the second time. Mexico wouldn't get involved at all because they were some of the big shots was wanting the maquilla waste put in here at Spofford so they wouldn't get involved.

DT: Now they were saying this was going to be a regional waste site but was there not enough room in the landfills in Brackettville and Del Rio?

TH: No, there's not see Brackettville ships theirs out to San Antonio. See, that's why they they and we were we take ours to Brackettville and they pick it up. No there's not room but I knew it wasn't going to be no regional landfill. It was the same deal. They just come in with their lies because they won't tell the truth.

They say they're going to tell you the truth but they don't, they can they can out lie anybody. And and I knew when they brought the the investor from Mexico, that was their first mistake.

DT: Well, now, speaking of investors I understood that the Adobe site was applying for a loan for the North American development plant. TH: Well, that's what they first did. DT: Can you tell about that discussion?

TH: Yeah, they were trying to borrow money from the the B.E.C. [Border Environment Conservation] and I don't know how Rick Lowerre found that out but he found out that they were trying to borrow money, so they had a meeting in Del Rio.

That's when we went over there and Lee Weatherby, he was a former city council, very strong for environment and we went over there and met with them and that was the article I gave you, that they said I was bullying the B.E.C., you know, but you know what? Their their name is Border Environment Conservation, you know. And I said you're on one hand trying to clean up the border and one hand you're going to loan money to them.

See we I even went to El Paso too to meet with the Border Environment Commission up there, you know. And I couldn't see them loaning the money so we raised so much heck about that because that's not what they're there for. They're there to clean up the border not to put more contamination in the border, you know.

And so, we got that. They didn't get to borrow that money. So but they kind of said I bullied the Border Environment Commission but I I felt like that, you know, you got to bully and do what it takes to to defend yourself against these rich people because your your I really, I guess I don't have much confidence in our state government because they're so many lobbyists that they're like a bunch of sharks. They just you know, so it's whosever got the most money to pay for their re-election campaign, that's who they listen to.

DT: So that's what it comes back to is campaign finance? TH: Sure it is. Sure it is. Absolutely. It's that's what it's all about. You look on the computer now and see they got the computer now that you can be so much you'll see the money trail, you do.

DT: And so some of these representatives get sort of compromised and they can't listen as well to you? TH: Really, that's what happened? Yeah. (misc.)

DT: I guess part of the effort to try and make your case opposing Adobe was to tell the media. Did you get much help or opposition from local newspapers and T.V. stations and radio?

TH: Well, see, we were fortunate the Brackett News helped us out a lot, then we kind of had the San Antonio Express. You know, they kind of gave a fair deal to both sides, you know. They wasn't just so so bias, you know, they kind of, you know, and but we didn't have the I don't think we had the news like we did in the Texcor fight, you know. It was such a big deal then. We had some news coverage but not like, you know, like we did in the Texcor fight.

DW: You also mentioned, and I don't know whether I didn't hear you right so, I dont' want to confuse Texcor with TH: Adobe. DW: Adobe, which is the one where there was one were you say that a local religious leader was kind of opposing you?

TH: Oh, yes that that was DW: Because I know that can sometimes affect a community too. Maybe tell David a little about TH: Yeah (misc.)

DT: Well, thinking how the clergy is often and the church or is often part of the community and helps organizes people and hear people out, well, what was the response to the clergy in those two cases, the Adobe and Texcor case?

TH: Well, I really don't really know what changed for Brother Joe Townsend's view unless it was my neighbor over there was so against the Adobe, you know. And he was very good friends of theirs. And I think it was just because he thought they didn't know anything, they'd never put in a facility or anything.

And I don't know and see when I started going out getting petitions signed, they put a real bad letter out on me. They flooded Fort Clark Springs and Brackettville with a letter that I had stolen all this money and I did this and that. I tried to find a copy of that letter I know I have that they put out and I went to the post office and asked who put it out.

And I knew it, I knew who it was and they said we don't know. They were all in boxes sitting out there. They sent them out all over Kinney County. And what they were trying to do, I guess, I to they knew I was taking a petition up and they wanted to stop it, you know, so that I couldn't get any resolutions out of the town, you know.

And they were trying to discredit me, I guess, you know. And I knew it was Tommy Sergeant and the judge and Adobe, you know, Jim Stevens and them because it took a lot of money to just send it out to, you know, stamps and everything. And they tried to discredit me there too but, you know, people knew me all through the Texcor fight and they know what I stand for that, you know, I'm trying to protect our community. I have no hidden agenda on the water or or, you know, like these dumps. They offered to buy me out. They did everything trying to get rid of me out of Spofford here.

DT: What were some of the things they tried to do besides, I guess, in a sense, discredit you? And they also tried to provide you with some money or opportunities?

TH: Oh yes, Adobe did. They sent my neighbor over here and they wanted to buy him out and he said if I would sell out, that he would sell out to them. And I it was one Christmas, I remembered so well and I was outside and she'd come over. She said Well, Tootsie I need to talk to you about Adobe. And I said What about it? and she says Well, they've offered Paul Malone a deal and they will offer you a good deal also. And I I looked at her and said You know what?

I might sell out someday but it sure wont be to those people because I know, I've learned so much in the Texcor fight what theyre trying to do to this community and I have to look in the mirror and like myself. I will never sell out to them and they tried another person too to to, he called me up wanted to buy my house, you know. And I said What do you want to buy my house for?

He said oh, I just want to buy I said well, if the Adobe sent you, you just tell them my house is not for sale. They're still going to have to look at me 24 hours a day and they're going to have to get up before daylight before they out smart me in any of this fight because I've had I had years of experience with Texcor, you know. And they just, you know, I know, I guess I was so determined to protect this town, you know, because the reporter just says nothing here but old mesquite trees and everything.

There's not a thing here, I said maybe not to you but I was born and raised here and I'm pretty proud of these mesquite trees, maybe the snakes also, you know, because its where your roots are. And I learned so much where they put these dumps what it did to the community, you know, it don't bring no jobs in.

Who who's qualified to work down there, like I told my brother you're not qualified, how could you even work down there? They're going to send people in that's going to (?) out bogus tickets and tell, you know, what's not true, what's going in there like they did at Panna Maria. And see, you can't trust your government. Why did they re didn't renew their permit in 13 years?

You can't tell me you're going to trust anybody, you're not. You just have to be smarter than they are and just be tougher and that's what it takes, a lot of prayer and being tough and persistent. That's all I can tell you.

DT: How did this whole Adobe issue get resolved in the end?

TH: Well, they they denied their permit also, I think due to the fact that Joe York filed a lawsuit against them. They all got in a fight and Adobe apparently didn't pay Joe York what he had coming and then they had the easement through there and Adobe see, you can't put a facility in with a easement through the land, you know.

That's got to be all locked up. They're not going to let you have a easement and due to the fact that they could not get no water down there, Spofford denied them water and we we held fast to that. They would not get no water through this town.

DT: So they needed water to wet down each layer? TH: Oh yeah, wash all the trucks and everything down there, you know, they got to have a lot of water.

DT: I see, and then the access question was that there was some kind of road coming from this main paved road into the site and it crossed over Mr. Yorks property?

TH: Yes and see, he had a easement see that Yorks is estate deal. You know, his daddy died and left all this and he gave it to the grandkids and everything. So the first one that sold was P.H., the Joe Yorks sister's boy see. The bank was about ready to take it so they come along and paid him some money. So he sold it but then when it come down to it, they all got in argument I I suspect, I don't know for sure about money and then the easement and then Joe York filed against them.

So, that helped us a whole lot right there, kind of turned the tides, you know, and then we had all the the land issue and the fault and everything and in the Texcor. See, they did not have anything like that. You know, they were just relying on the other data from the Texcor deal so

DT: The geologic information? TH: Uh, huh. Yeah. So, we didnt know if we were going to win or not, you know.

That's something you don't know. You just got to fight hard, you know, and of course we went up to Austin several times and rallied up there and did whatever. We was kind of seasoned by the time Adobe came. We wasn't so naïve and then the second thing I did after I got resolution from Kinney County, then I went to the Nine County Region and then I had to get resolution for them.

That's when Middle Rio Grande did a resolution against it too because see, they should of went down there and talked to Middle Rio Grande, you know, at the Solid Waste Committee and and got permission or something for them to start, you know, a regional landfill but they knew it wasn't going to be a regional landfill. That was just a bunch of malarkey but they had a lot of people in Brackettville convinced, you know, they well that's better than the N.O.R.M. waste, you know, but actually it was worse.

It was a whole lot worse, I think than the N.O.R.M. even.

DT: Well, I think that may wrap it up for the Texcor and Adobe. [End of Reel 2357]