Tootsie Herndon Interview, Part 2 of 2

INTERVIEWEE: Tootsie Herndon (TH) INTERVIEWERS: David Todd (DT) and David Weisman (DW) DATE: February 21, 2006 LOCATION: Spofford, Texas TRANSCRIBERS: Jenny Gumpertz and Robin Johnson REELS: 2357 and 2358

Please note that the recording includes roughly 60 seconds of color bars and sound tone for technical settings at the outset of the recordings. You can select Interview Start in the Table of Contents to skip this section.

DT: Ms. Herndon, you've told us about the fight against the two waste proposals, Texcor and Adobe, shortly after that I think there came in proposals to mine some of the groundwater that lies under Kinney County and export it to other areas particularly San Antonio...

TH: Yes. DT: And I was wondering how that first started, how you first became aware of it?

TH: Well, see, Rick Lowerre had sent me a I guess what you'd callI guess Rick found out they had bought this land adjacent to Fort Clark that has all these Artesian Wells. So, he sent the master plan that they hadthey were going to sell to Laredo and San Antonio and how much water those wells produced and blah, blah, this, you know. And so I went and met with Fort Clark but they wasn't real worried about it or anything, you know, and I was real concerned about it because a neighbor that I know in Brackettville told me that Jim Steven, Adobe was meeting with Zack Davis and McDaniel out there on the water in the Edwards Trinity. You know, thatthat the Pinto Creek runs through there.

And I talked to Zack Davis and McDaniel and they said no they wasn't going to sell water to Adobe. I thought they were trying to cut a deal with them to sell water out of Kinney County, all of them together. Zack and McDaniel said no. So, then it kind of just rocked along and then everybody started hearing rumbles about selling water out of Kinney County.

So, Tully Shahan andhe's a county attorney of Brackettville and Kinney County decided that maybe we needed a water district, you know, toto help protect the water because they were getting real concerned about San Antonio. They been kind of looking at our water for quite awhile to, you know, export it out of there. So they formed the Kinney County Groundwater Conservation District. So, then I wasn't real involved in it and then one day I got a call at the last session.

They wanted me to go up there and speak before the senate about the water, you know, and I thought goodness, you know, really by then didnt know who to trust because you heard about the (?) its kind of deal, you know, that they were trying to sell water and that the Davis's is kind ofjust a big deal among allsome of the ranchers and farmers. So, I didn't really know who to trust when I went up to the senate, you know.

So I went up there, made a speech concerning the water, that I felt like, you know, they were again, trying to discriminate against the poor people of Kinney County, you know, because if they export all this water out then what if Los Mores springs is in Fort Clark Springs, you know, and Fort Clark brings a lot of revenue in Brackettville and there's Pinto creek. There's several springs there at Brackettville. So, I didn't really get involved until then, they had an election for the board of directors, you know, they just kind of appointed, you know, they were trying to all get, you know, and they wereback then they were trying to dissolve the water district, you know, (?) we hardly got started. And so, then we had our election...

DT: The district was started in 2002, is that right? TH: Uh, huh, yes. See, I didn't get on the board, I was appointed in Darlene Shahans place. She was there, then she become the water board's general manager so, then the commission of court appointed me in her place. Well, I was just going to fill out her term; it was just for a few months. Then they kept calling meJoe York Jr., see, hes on our side now to preserve the water in Brackettville, you know.

So, see, it makes strange bed fellows, you know. So, he called me and said Tootsie, you're the only one we think that can run to beat Tony Ferret, he owns the Woolly Mohair and he's dealt with ranchers for years there, you know, andbut his dad has water out there on the Edwards Trinity. So, they wanted me to run and I didn't really want to, I said I've just fought two battles here and I know what it takes, you know, it takes a lot of energy and II give it my hundred percent. If I'm going to fight for a cause, I'm going to do the best I can. So, I talked to J.B. and the girls and said its going to take a lot of work and a lot of effort of time, you know.

And yeah, you need to do it Granny; somebody's got to protect the water. So, I ran for the board and it was kind of funny Tony Ferrets told everybody he'd beat me hands down because he knew all the ranchers and everything. And I beat him by 200 votes, which I was real proud of, you know. I didn't think I could beat him really but I said I'd get out and work on it and I did. So, we all went in and we used a slogan Save our water. Well, then the McDaniel lady and the Jones another formthey filed at the ethic committee that we used that not as a slogan but tototo try to change the towns people to get their votes.

So, well, really it was just a slogan we thought to identify our self, you know, to save our water, you know. And it was such a different fight for me being a directorI'm just used to going out and doing my thing. Rick Lowerre would tell me, I don't know what you're doing, you know, but when you're a director, you know, theywhen we were running we had a big barbeque there. And theythat's when they filed on us.

We couldn't get up there all together on the stage, it was just a big ordeal, you know, I don't know they justyou can't be forfor director at one time at any place unless you post a meeting. So, that was all new to me to me too, you know, of course, I've been Mayor pro tem here for years in city council and it was such a new deal for all of us and then they put me right into permit hearing. That overwhelmed me. I had all this paperwork, didn't know anything, you know, but I said sit down and read and everything. So, after the second meeting I was there... DT: Is the permit for wells to explore water? TH: Yes!

DT: And how much water are we talking about? TH: Well, see the farmers out there, their agriculture use, they wanted all this water, some wanted 14 acres ofof water under agriculture and historical use, you know. DT: They were saying they were using 14-acre feet per acre of ground every year?

TH: Yes, for agriculture use, gimmie a break. Then we had an expert, Steve (?) that works for the Edwards Aquifer. He was our export there telling us to give then all this water and I was on that board about twice or three times and I told the board, I said Ya'll need to fire that attorney then you need to fire the expert. Well, theyour president Cecil Smith, I butted heads with him. He said Oh well, just give them all this water and you can take it back, now you know and I know you can't give all this water out, say hey give me this water back.

If I gave you fifty dollars and I say I want that back, well, you'd say No, Im not going to give it back to you, how am I going to make you give me back fifty dollars then, you know, that's like the water there. Well, we all kind of butted heads and everything so, I studied up what alfalfa used, you know. It don't take a lawyer, you know, after you once know what your doing that what it takes to actually agriculture use people, it didnt take all this water.

DT: A lot less than 14-acre foryou're talking what? Three, four? TH: Yes, they were wanting just all kinds of water, you know, they said they used foryouve got about one percent farming in Brackettville, you got about two farmers really, I'd say in the whole territory that, youyou know, which I called this farmer and I knew it was just another deal, you know, that they were just trying to get our water to sell it out. Adobe was our first permit that we had and I loved it.

I loved to be the one to make the motion how much water to give them and, you know, theythey put you up there and when you have to go against your attorney and expert, it's very hard to do, its tough, you know. But see, it makes me feel good now that I went against them and I kind ofI think that I kind of cha'nged the board's view on (?) because he wanted to give them all this water. He had no notes; he had no pictures to show us to tell us if the wells was leaking, you know, if it was wasting water out there, whatever. And that's what a conservation district is and that's why we were elected, to protect and conserve our water there not to just give it all out. So, they've alreadymost of them has leased their water to Water Texas.

DT: What is Water Texas? TH: It's a big company that exports water, you know, tomakes big deal like the San Antonio, Laredo and all of them; theyre a big rich company. Same kind of like Texcor and Adobe but they're in it forfor the export water and there's no data. There's no science saying how much water is in Kinney County. Until we know how much water, you know, we cannot permit all this water out.

Well, in the meantime, we got another deal on the other side of Kinney County, its Grass Valley. They're asking allfor all this water under a regular permit to sell to Laredo. So, on one side we got Water Texas over here, we got Grass Valley over here. They kind of sandwiching us now, you know, so, they filedthey took us up to legislature, (?) Puente and Armbrister.

They all kind of ganged up and they were going to dissolve the water board. So, we had to hire lobbyists, then we have to go up there, same old thing like Texcor and Adobe but just its about water. Well, we defeated that. Well, then they call a state audit on us, you know. So we survived that, you know, and now were trying to change it, Rick Lowerre is our attorney and he's trying to change some of our rules. We're such a young water board, you know, we've made mistakes, you know, and I read where Brian Sledge, our attorney, our last attorney before Rick Lowerre, he talked the water boardhim and Armbrister, threatened the water board to make them have a fifty year contract, a historical permit.

You never give nobody a historical permit on fifty years! Mercy, that's wherewhere I readsee, the water board, I read that they wanted to give ten years historical, you know, use which would been not really good but it wouldn't have been bad as fifty years, historical but see, what they wanted to dothey know none of them farms, they can go back fifty years where they really did farm a lots in Kinney County, you know.

DT: Oh, I see, so, this is finding out what there greatest use was in the past fifty years? TH: Oh yes, see, you have to go back with evidence, you have to look at the evidence, you know, and then you have to decide, you know. And it was some tough decision for the water board to decide, you know. And I just basically looked at evidence and gave what I thought it took to raise a crop. And if the courthigh court, if they take us to district courtthey done filed one deal on us and we lost out to Judge Peniten from Hondo, theof the user fee, see, theyand...

DT: They're filing user fees for exporting water? TH: Uh, huh, uh, huh. DT: But they're not authorized to do that until the injunction is over?

TH: Well, really it's so complicated about what hehe told us what we could do and can't do but then he goes right back to your official being tied in with water (?) see. See, thethe district judge in Del Rio wouldnt try it. So, then Judge Peniten from Hondo got it. Thatthat was another bad mistake on our part that we didnt ask for another judge because he's tied in with the water (?) and he ruled against us. So, we havent heard whatbecause we depend, we have to have a users fee but wereI think were going to appeal it because he's lost every appeal that he'she's made against the water district, you know.

This affects to all the water districts in Texas. Thisthis ruling here that he put onbecause allwe didnt do any ruuser fee that any other water board didnt use, you know, and he voted against all of us, all the water district. So, I think what were going to try to do is appeal the case. But see, this is just the same case of big rich people trying to force their wayto get their way to take all the water out of Kinney County, same as dumping on us, they're raping us for our water.

DT: Can you maybe explain that by talking about the attempt to dissolve the district and then later to do an audit, how did that come about? Whywhat kind of argument did they make to say that it should be dissolved...?

TH: Well, you have the water marketer up there crying, Jennifer McDaniel, one of the farmers, the big farmers out there worksI think she worked for Armbrister or she worked for a senator up there, well, she went up there crying, they wouldn't allow her daddy to farm, we wasn't give him enough water to farm and we allowed him three-acre foot almost everybody, three acre foot of water.

That will water anything in this part of the county, you know. And so, they just went up there and basically Madeline and them put it on the bill to dissolve the Kinney County Water District but they didnt get it done. You know, how can you do that? How canup there we did what the state ordered us to. We formed a water district, we put our management plan in, we did our rules, we did everything the state wanted us to but then there's a money trail, again, for campaign. So, there's a money trail to all of them.

DT: Where's the trail go? TH: Huh? DT: Where does the trail go?

TH: To all those politicians up there, to Armbrister, Puente and Madeline, the whole bunch but see, Madeline helped us in the Texcor fight. He was our biggest supporter, him and, you know, butI think Brian Sledge, our attorney talked to Madeline and told him our water board wasn't any good. When we went against him and theand theour expertI thinkthat's me that's hypothetically, you know, that's my opinion that he's the one that went up there and got this all stirred up to dissolve our water board. (misc.)

DT: When we were talking earlier saying follow the money trail and can you help us understand the kind of money thats at stake here? I read somewhere that the water in Kinney County is worth between 3 and 9 thousand dollars an acre foot, is that roughly right? TH: That what? I didn't understand.

DT: That the water in Kinney County for exporting is worth between 3 and 9 thousand dollars and acre foot and they're talking about exporting something like a hundred thousand acre feet a year, is that all? TH: Well, I know that's how much they're trying to export out of there. Now, I don't knowI'm sure the farmers didn't get that amount of money but they do have athey do have agreement with Water Texas, they've sold their water rights to Water Texas.

DT: How much do people get for selling their water rights? Do you know? TH: See, I don't know that, I don't know. We had so many citizens get up there, thatsee Brian Sledge, our attorney, after I was up at permit hearing about three, called me in the back and he said I want to tell you something, Director Herndon, you're going to have to be unbiased, you were elected to be unbiased and I said I'm going to tell you something too, Mr. Sledge, you tell me how I can be unbiased when I know people up there that's lying under Gods oath.

You tell me how to be unbiased, I was elected to try to conserve this water and thats what I intend to do, be biased or unbiased and I just left him there, you know. And they oh thethe expert then, they dont like me because, see, this wasn't my first rodeo see, with experts and lawyers and everything. And so, one of the directors the other day, Chuck Hall said Tootsie, I thought you were the dumbest person.

You got on the water board and you got in there after threatened me, wanted to fire our attorney and our expert and everything. He said, I told my wife God, she's stupid coming on here wanting to fire everybody and just fussing with our president and everybody and said But, you know after awhile, I kind ofyou put that seed of doubt in my mind and I kind of watched whatand then I went home told my wife, you know, she's not as dumb as I thought she was I said Well ya'll forget I fought many years over there against Texcor and Adobe and I saw Brian Sledge for what he was and that I don't care if he works forwhat he works for the Edwards Aquifer.

He's nothing, he sold that community out and he robbed us. He took money, probably from both sides, that's just the way I feel about it, you know. DT: It seems like a lot of these cases get very political but they also get to be kind of argument between scientists on one side and scientists on the other and one says that this amount of water is possible to produce. The other says No, no, no, it's this amount is that the case with your situation?

TH: It is but theythey really dont have anywe just have to go by what the water commission says. They say we have sixty-nine thousand, you know, inin reserve, you know. We have to go by their figures, you know, that's what our water boardwe have to go and werewe did different zoning and, youyou know, and we cannot give out more water then what we have. And that's whatwhat the expert did. On the Edwards Aquifer, he's over permitted 180,000 acre foot of water.

So, now what kind of expert is he? You know, I just dont understand these experts when they over permit as much as he did and he tried to do the same thing in Kinney County, only we had a board that stood tough and we justwe didnt over permit. And if they take it toto a big court and we lose, so be it.

I know I've done what I told the people I would do, try to conserve the water, you know, the best we can. And were a new board, you know, we made mistakes, you know, because its overwhelming, you know, it's overwhelming when youre a director. It's so different than just out here fighting, you now, when youre fighting the duck people, you know, you got to be careful because than you get the whole board in trouble.

DT: So, what is the difference between before you were a member of C.A.R.E. a little non-profit group association of citizens and then you now board member of this conservation district and, you know, you're an official, how much latitude do you get with those two different positions?

TH: You just don'tto me I never represented C.A.R.E. when II spoke or done anything I always just represented myself, you know, and they reallythey had a deal oin Brackettville when they were, you know, trying to get the board elected. They didn't want me to speak because they know Im just going to tell like it is and oh well, let it fly where it may, you know. But then thethe mayor had asked me to speak to the citizens of Brackettville about the water, you know, and I kind of laid it on because I'm very worried about our water due to the fact Spofford hadn't had water all these years and I, you know, I know what it's like not to have water.

So, I spoke, they didn't really want me too, you know, because I guess theres a fine line between being a directorand Rick Lowerre asked me not to speak at the senate, said I don't want you speaking. He said I want you to keep your mouth shut, pleased dont speak. So, I didn't, you know, but that's where its hard for me because I'm used to just calling an ace an ace and a spade a spade and thats the way its gowith me.

DT: Well, maybe we can give you a chance to call and ace an ace and a spade a spade. We often wrap up these interviews by asking a question about what sort of advice youd give the next generation that comes on board in Spofford or Kinney County. What's important, what should they work for towards conserving the water or land?

TH: I think that they should realize that were only caretakers here. God gave us a beautiful planet here but man has really tried to ruin it and thislike the waste dumps, it's just like a toxicit's like a merry-go-round. They put it here and then they move it here and everything and it's just for money, for greed. And I think that our new generation should learn to conserve and protect.

The most important thing we have is water and our land and the air we breathor breathe. We should protect it at all cost. And I think its every citizen's moral obligation to protect our water, our air and our land because God gave it to us. It was beautiful when he gave it tobut we have nearly destroyedand I think thatthat, you know, San Antonio, I dont feel sorry for.

I'm sorry, they waste a lot of water in Fiesta, Texas and all that that theythey could stop a lot of that. I think we all need to conserve and protect our natural resources because water is life, you know, and water now is like liquid gold, you know. I never thoughtyou go to the store and buy a little bottle of water and see what you pay for it, you know. And for my advice to the future generation to stand up and be heard mostly and it has to start when they're little.

And I think my grandchildren see, they wrote toto president, governor and everything when we were fighting Texcor and I think they all realized how important it is to protect our land, you know. And I'm not sayingI know they make a lot of waste but they couldthey could stop a lot of it, you know. It's just so much money in it till they justthey're destroying our land and they'renow all the big city is trying to eat up the small people here and take our water now, you know.

We've always had plenty of water but we dont know how much water we have if you put big pipelines in to pipe it to San Antonio or to Laredo, you know. And it's not a job you get paid for all these many hours in permit hearing and you've got to make tough decisions. There's no money in it. There's no hidden agenda on my forfor nothing I do because I have no water and if I had water, I wouldn't want exexport it out unless there's a lot of data they're telling me how much water is in Kinney County.

And I think somebody should spend about a million or two and tell us how much water, why can't the state come in here, some of our officials from the state and get us some grant money to tell us how much water before they want to dissolve our water district and sell our water out to San Antonio. That would be my advice to them, you know.

DT: You told us that the future generation should think more about conserving land and water of course. And I was hoping you could tell us a little about why this community of Spofford and then brush country out here mean so much to you, what is it about it that...?

TH: Well, I think when you're born and raised in a place, you have roots and my family, all my family, was here. My grandfather, my grandmother and I think its the love of the country. I would not even want to see any place devastated with all these massive dumps, you know, right close toto your home, you know. I think they could find a better place to put some of it and cut down a lot of it that they make. I think there's other things they could use, you know, other sources that they could do, you know.

And if our future generation don't do something toto really think about conserving, you know, our water and everything, in fifty years, what is it going to be like? You know, you have to instill this in your younger generation because us old people were going to be dead and gone, you know. Somebody's going to have pick up thethe sword and fight, you know, for what they believe in. And you got to be persistent and you got to care. You got to love youryour country and you want toyou know, like they just throw out trash everyplace, you know.

Give me a break, it's so sad now that they have no respect for, you know, the beaches or nothing. They throw all their trash right there, you know, and they close all these little dumps up and then they go down and just throw it any place. So, see, I wonder what the state's thinking about because it's better to put it in one place if you're going to have a dump, you know, than just throw it out all over, you know, but the future it seems like the lobbyists has took over our country and thats the sad part about it.

That you not only have to fight some of your citizens of Brackettville but you've got to fight your state also. That's the sad part thatthat we have fought so hard against our own state government because thatthey have no mercy for us. It's whoever's got the big bucks up in Austin, that's whowho they look at.

DT: Well, it sounds like they've heard you several times. TH: Oh, yes, I'm sure they have and they're going to hear me several more times probably before I'm off of the waterwater board but I really didn't want to get in this fight because I know it's a tough fight. When you fight big money, you know, it's the same deal as here, you justhave to fight it in a different way.

DT: You've got a lot of heart for it, thank you so much for coming. TH: Thank ya'll. I appreciate it and I want you to read the Los Angeles Times because that is a very good article that tells a lot there. DT: I will do that. TH: About the Texcor fight. DT: Thank you for telling us, I appreciate it. TH: Thank you.

End of reel 2358 End of interview with Tootsie Herndon