Tim Hixon Interview, Part 1 of 2

DT: My name's David Todd. I'm here for the Conservation History Association of Texas and it's February 15th, 2006 and we're in San Antonio, Texas at the home of Tim Hixon who has been kind to talk to us about some of his experiences with land management, with developing of downtown properties and with a slew of nonprofit and governmental efforts to try and preserve land and wildlife and probably many things I don't even know about, but maybe we'll hear more about. So thank you very much for spending time with us.00:01:59 - 2334TH: Good to be here. I'm glad you're here and doing this and I look forward to it. I want to see some of my colleagues' tapes, too.DT: Good. Well, I thought we might start with your childhood and if there might've been a place or a person that you could point to as maybe your first introduction to interest and love for the outdoors or wildlife?00:02:32 - 2334

TH: And I-I could never pick out one instant or any particular stage in my life. I was just kind of always raised with it. I was raised in Jacksonville, Florida on the Saint John's River and my brother Joe and I lived in that river practically as kids and we were catching snakes and turtles and crawfish or fiddler crabs and whatever. Just nonstop. And my grandfather lived in, well, sixty-five miles away in-in a little town called High Springs, Florida where he had a farm and we spent every moment we could on that farm. Again, doing the same stuff, just exploring the out of doors and looking for treasures and riding horses and whatever we could. I-and I just loved it there more than anything 00:03:42 - 2334and-and we literally were doing that-or I was m-more so than my-my brother probably, from age five, six, seven on. Fishing and then, well, it's got to be around twelve years old, we'd get to go on a quail hunt once in-every now and then and it was-it was good fun. My father was a-a-I call him my father, he's my stepfather, really-and he was a federal judge and he-he didn't have a lot of time for the out of doors, but we did get a family hunt in at least once a year. And my mother was pretty much an inside person. She didn't-she didn't spend a lot of time off concrete. DT: Do you remember any particular fishing trips or crawfish chases? Anything come to mind?00:04:46 - 2334

TH: Not now, I don't remember my-remember anything really specific. There's just a conglomeration of a lot of-lot of good experiences. Had a uncle that used to take us fishing in the Gulf of Mexico some and it was always great fun being with him and I guess we were twelve, four-twelve to fourteen years old when we were doing that. When I was fifteen or thereabouts, I worked one summer for a guy named Ross Allen at Silver Springs, Florida and he had kind of one of these big snake farms, reptiles, alligators, turtles of every description. And I worked-worked for him for a few weeks 00:05:35 - 2334and lived with his boys-he had a bunch of boys and I can't even remember how many kids were around there, but there were a lot. And we'd just-my job was feeding snakes and stuff when we're-we had free time, we'd go-go up and down the rivers in a canoe and try and catch stuff and it was-it was really-that-that was a pretty special time there. And there a bunch of Seminole Indians living in this place then and they were just wonderful people and they'd try and show us sometimes the evil of our ways, but it-it was great. It was just-just the-heck of an experience. And in those days, I was-I 00:06:26 - 2334was away in boarding school when-but I even knew the Latin names of most every snake in North America. I mean, I was-I was a snake nut for a while there. I can still remember some of them.DT: Did you camp out at all or were these mostly sort of day trips?00:06:45 - 2334

TH: Yep. A lot of them were just day trips, yeah. But when-where we were raised on the banks of the Saint John's River, it was kind of on the-on the edge of town in those days-and it sure isn't anymore-but there were vacant lots and big wooded areas near us and we camped out a lot from age ten, twelve on. And we'd do it on weekends and-and such and I had a group of friends do that and we made some really bad stew a few times and had some really bad pancakes and things like that. But I guess lots of lucky kids get to do those things. DT: As you grew up, I understand that you continued to spend time in the outdoors, hunting and fishing. How did those sort of forays change as you got older and where did they take you?00:07:44 - 2334

TH: Well, I-I've hunted a lot of different places. I've been, oh, I think eight, maybe nine trips to Africa. I've hunted there and I-a lot. Saw a lot of changes. I-my first trip was a photo trip in 1955, right after I graduated from-from boarding school. The-and those, of course, were still colonial days in Kenya, Tanzania. And then my last trip there was eight or nine years ago and some pretty traumatic changes in those years. When we used to move camps when we were hunting and such, we'd drive from area to area and if night caught us, we just camped on the side of the road. I-I'm told now you just don't dare do that anymore. It's just-it's gotten to be too dangerous and if-if you stay strictly in the tourist areas, you're fine. In the big parks and stuff, there would be no problems, but just to strike out on your own, better be careful. DT: Did you ever find any fishing trips that took you abroad or here in the States?00:09:10 - 2334

TH: Yeah. We fished in Mexico on many occasions. We used to go down to Boca Paila, it's one of the great spots of the world and-down in Quintana Roo on the Yucatan Peninsula. And that was mostly bonefish fishing and I did manage to catch a permon down there in 1972, I think it was, which I was one of the very early people to catch a permon on a fly. And I was always kind of proud of that. I-where else have we been? We go to South America every year. We go to Argentina every year and fish as far south as Tierra Del Fuego for the big sea run browns. And then probably the weirdest 00:09:58 - 2334trip-fishing trip we went on, oh, about five years ago, we went to Mongolia to fish for Taimen, which is a salmonoid type fish and they get really monstrous in these rivers and then they have another fish very similar to our trout, they're called a lenok. And that was just a wonderful experience. It was a-a-we got to go through China and back out through Korea and we took a day off from fishing and drove those-rode those miserable little Mongolian ponies up in the mountains. It was great; it was just a wild, wild place. 00:10:42 - 2334Fact, it-there was a town kind of near where we were fishing. It was thirty-five miles away as the crow flies, but it took six hours to drive there, so it's-this is pretty undeveloped stuff. And we just had a great time on that one and where else? And-shot pheasants and ducks in Korea when I was in the Army there. You have to take these opportunities as they come up, I guess.DT: Now...00:11:18 - 2334

TH: Then we fished in Russia-or I fished there a couple of times. We-we-Karen and I were there last year, in fact, fishing for lenok salmon on the Ponoi River. DT: You've been telling us about some of these hunting and fishing trips and I imagine that some of the interesting parts might be the guides that you had that knew about the local area and knew about the local wildlife. Any stories you can recall about some of these people who led you into these areas?00:11:53 - 2334

TH: Yeah, well, one of the guys I hunted with in Africa was-he was a third generation professional hunter there in-in East Africa. He hunted Kenya and Tanzania and I hunted with him in Botswana and in Zaire, now the Congo. But he knew very little about wildlife and such and what bird was what and every bird was an Ndege bird, which meant bird in Swahili. Or you ask him what a tree was and he'd say it's a "Meeky" tree, which means wood in-in Swahili. And, yeah, he didn't know anything, but he was just a fabulous hunter. The African people just always seemed to love him, they just-he could-raised there, he could talk Swahili and-as well as they could and he-he was dynamite. But on the other side of the fence, I'd had one great hunt with a fellow named 00:12:53 - 2334Tony Dire, who knew everything. He knew every little chi chi bird that you ran across and then, you know, they were the wide spread between those two guides. And-and then you seen the same thing in fishing guides, that for fishing tarpon in the Florida Keys, there-some of these guys know every little thing that's down there and some are just the darndest tarpon fishermen you ever saw and some of them have both. But it's a-you-you-you just get a wide variety of people and, in fact, everybody's got the same interest 00:13:32 - 2334and that's a deep seeded interest in the-in the outdoor world and in the conservation, preservation of these-of these areas and these-these animals. It-this-this is-this is good. DT: Well, I guess in hunting, a lot of it is actually the tracking and not the shooting. Can you tell about trying to track some of these animals?00:13:58 - 2334

TH: Yeah, yeah, the-yeah. Good question. Fact, the-the best hunt, maybe purest hunt I was ever on in my life was I was hunting bongo in-bongo in the Congo. It was-then, it was Zaire, but we got over there. We drove, this fellow Glen Cotter, the professional hunter from Kenya and I drove over there and-through Uganda and got into Zaire, which was very nerve wracking, I must say. Going through there and the drums going at night and stuff, it's a little-a little unnerving, to say the least. But anyway, I-I had a good hunt and I-we met up with another professional hunter in Zaire 00:14:48 - 2334and he said well, he explained his procedures and how he-how he hunted there, because you're in thick, thick forest looking for these animals that tend to blend in with their background pretty well. And I-he said I'm-if I go with you, I'm just one more person to make noise and said I'd rather you just go with a tracker, this African fellow, his name was Bitay. He was a great, big, strong, good looking guy and seemed to know his way around the forest pretty well. But every morning, we'd search the roads, the dirt roads and stuff and pick up fresh bongo tracks and we'd get on those tracks and stay on them, 00:15:35 - 2334sometimes for ten or twelve hours, until it got dark or darn near it. And Bitay, I mean, he's following these things-how, I'll never know as long as I live, I don't know how he-and he's sniffing the air and looking and there'd be sometimes when the tracks would go off to the right and Bitay would keep going straight and he's sniffing and looking around. And pretty soon, he'd pick up those tracks again. He was-he was just incredible. And finally, we were hunting fifteen days and I finally got the bongo on the fifteenth day, at the last-last second. But over there, I-I saw bongo, I think every 00:16:21 - 2334day, as I remember, but they just weren't suitable and just wanted the right one to come along. Didn't-one time I sat up over in a-they'd built a little platform up in a very wiggly tree for me over a waterhole and saltlick and the only way to do it, it was so far from camp, was go up there and stay all night. And a storm came up that night, I'm up there by myself and it's pitch black dark and I had one little, bitty, tiny flashlight with me and this storm came up and the tree was sweeping around and the lightning was popping 00:17:02 - 2334and I said I can't stay here, I got to get down. And they had this-this so-called ladders going up the tree, just tied together with vines, so you can imagine how strong that was. And I climbed down and sat down on the ground till this storm passed, went back up again. I-I didn't get a bongo that night. I did that for two nights, it was not a good experience. DT: You also said, I think, that you'd been bone fishing. I've heard that that's also kind of a hunt. Is that...?00:17:37 - 2334

TH: Yeah, that's hunting and fishing at the same time, much like tarpon fishing in shallow water is. Yeah, it's-well, I've done a lot of that, a whole lot and it's a-it's all casting and it's wind and it's learning how to see the fish. And you get after a while, heck, you know, that-can see the fish as good as the guides can usually, it's-if you've been at it awhile. But it's very exciting, those fish take and all you do is just raise your rod and hold on because they going to go where they-wherever they want to for about two hundred yards. But it's-it's good fun. It's hunting and fishing at the same time, which is great.DT: Do you do similar kinds of fishing with the red fish down on Laguna Madre?00:18:30 - 2334

TH: Yeah, I-I've done some redfishing down here. I used to do it a good bit before the fishing got good down there, back in the 70's and-and I had a house in Port Aransas for a-awhile and I'd fly fish there for trout and-and redfish, but it-the fishing wasn't really good and it took a-GCCA [Gulf Coast Conservation Association] and-and-and Walter Fondren's group to come along and-along with Perry Bass-and got the-these fish made a game fish and that's what turned it all around. It's a fabulous fishery now and it's-it's just working great.DT: Well, could you explain more about how that happened? How GCCA got involved to protect these redfish and make them more plentiful?00:19:19 - 2334

TH: Well, it-it was getting where you just couldn't hardly catch a redfish and trout and there were trotlines everywhere you looked, all over and the by-catch from the shrimpers were terrible, killing a lot of immature fish. And Walter Fondren came along with GCCA and started that organization and-and built it and Perry Bass took care of the legislative end of it and-and lobbied and twisted arms and everything to get-get the bills passed necessary to make those two fish game fish. And God, I remember the whining and the moaning-I wasn't directly involved then, except for in some minor 00:20:05 - 2334support-but the-(misc.)-I can't remember the exact numbers, but the commercial fishery was valued for the state at 30, 40 million dollars, something like that. The sport-sports fishing industry at the same time was something like 100 million dollars, the value to the state now. Anybody got a problem with going to where the money is in this? I mean, it's a very important thing for the state and-and the commercial fishermen 00:20:37 - 2334were killing it. They were killing it. There was a-a great old story that used to be told about a commercial fishing-fisherman who used to run trotlines and nets and stuff and he-when they stopped at-stopped the commercial fishing, he said God, I never knew what-how it would change my life. He-he said my hours are a whole lot better. He'd-he'd become a fishing guide-a sports-fishing guide. He said my hours are a whole lot better, I'm making a lot more money and I'm running around with a lot nicer class of people. And he was-he was thrilled with the whole thing. The-th-this was great and I-I give those two guys full credit for getting it done.DT: You mentioned earlier going hunting in Africa for bongos. Do you have any stories about going hunting in Texas for white-tails or other kinds? Little birds?00:21:44 - 2334

TH: Oh, you know, I-I can't think of anything exceptionally-and I think we hunt thr-two or three days a week, year in and year out here, fall and winter. Just-you know, I've had a lot of happy, nice times with a lot of-lot of nice people over the years and you get some i-nice invitations o-other people's ranches and it-it's just been a great way of life. I think one thing you might find of interest, though. My wife and I have been married for 31 years now and in those 31 years; we've been on two trips that did not involve shooting or fishing. And we've been to a lot of nice places, I promise you. DT: We were talking about land in Texas. I believe that you run the Hixon Land and Cattle Company, which has a tract, as I understand it, in South Texas as well as in Idaho. I was hoping that you could talk about the efforts you've made to manage the land in these tracts and also the wildlife.00:23:04 - 2334

TH: Yeah. We-f-first of all, the-our-our ranch in South Texas near Cotulla is-is my ranch and then the one in Idaho belongs to my Hixon Properties, which is my extended family's ranch and my brother, Joe, and I operate that one in Idaho and I do this one down here. And we-we-despite this year long drought we've had now, my ranch still looks very good in South Texas. It's dry-the tanks are drying up. It still looks good because we do rotate-or do rotational grazing and we do stock a lot lighter than we used to. We just go on with steers now and, in fact, I lease it out for steers rather than 00:23:59 - 2334putting my own on there. I prefer to graze in the fall and winter, so we get the spring growing seasons and early summer and-and we're using fire a lot. We've been burning for-been burning for twenty-plus years, but in the last five years, we've burned a lot heavier. All winter burns and it's paying off. If we get these really good, hot fires and we can really set the mesquite back. If you don't get a good, hot fire, all you're going to do is make it mad and it'll come back with a vengeance. But if you get the right fire going, then it'll-it'll really set it back. You aren't going to get rid of it, but...DT: Do you burn mostly to control the brush and the hardwoods or do you hope that you can push the grasses in a different direction towards natives?00:24:59 - 2334

TH: Well, it's more to control the brush. I-the-the plus is you do get some of the native grasses coming back, too. We're cursed in South Texas, and I'm responsible-as responsible as any other person probably in that we're putting out of a lot of buffel grass. That it just seems to take over the world. It's very good for a ranch because it greens up with very little moisture and, you know, it looks great and (inaudible) you can get your cattle coming on quicker. And-but it's got no-little to no wildlife value at all, only as cover, nothing-none as-as a food source for wildlife. So it's-it's not a good one. And it seems with the burning that we're setting it back more and more and-and other native grasses are coming back. DT: Well, how do you balance the needs of the wildlife that are on your tract and the cattle that use it?00:26:06 - 2334

TH: I don't try to balance the needs of those things. Wildlife comes first and if we can improve things for cattle, that's a plus. The-gosh, I got lost there. The cattle-anything we do for wildlife is, in most cases, going to help cattle, too because it-it improves the rangeland generally speaking and that will help cattle. DT: Let's maybe change orientation here just a bit. I think you'd said that your tract up in Idaho that you share with your brother and extended family has a threatened species on it and sometimes that's a real obstacle in managing land. Have you found it to be a problem?00:27:06 - 2334

TH: No, we haven't had a problem yet. It's a little ground squirrel-Northern Idaho ground squirrels, spermophilus brunneus brunneus, and it's one that's only above ground about two and a half months of the year and-and we don't really have much of a problem with the federal agencies with it. They just-they monitor everything and we cooperate just a-as much as we possibly can and they-I-I disagree with them on a lot of stuff and I'm not sure it's as threatened as they think it is because we see these little squirrels scattered around the ranch in pretty good shape. And-and they've-have their 00:27:53 - 2334official counts that don't match up with our eyeballing them. But we don't sit down and count in different groups and species, but we-we see squirrels where they never go-I mean, where the feds never go. I don't know, this-this too shall pass. We-we-we are doing our part to help the-help the guys.DT: What sort of efforts do you make on behalf of these ground squirrels?00:28:29 - 2334

TH: We just watch the grazing more closely. We rotate better. We stay away with vehicles and stuff from the areas that they burrow in. It's-I said it's-it just hasn't been burdensome. We haven't had to do a lot. DT: Are there other land management issues that are different in Idaho than those you faced in South Texas?00:29:01 - 2334

TH: Oh, yeah, yeah. There-there're a lot of land management problems that we have up there that you'd never have down here. It mainly-the big one is riparian grazing because the cattle will flat graze out a riparian area. They'll knock down stream banks and some ranchers deny that, that it doesn't happen, but I think they ought to open their eyes. It does happen and we have to be very careful with that. On our deeded land on the ranch, we've got all but just a little bit of the streams fenced off now and we have water gaps so cattle can get down to get water, but on our terms and not the cattle's terms. 00:29:47 - 2334And-and the federal lands, which we're surrounded by and we graze on and-both BLM land and Forest Service land-we try and keep the cattle pushed out of these things. Now they're going to get in there and they're going to graze, but we've had Forest Service people tell us that we're doing heck of a good job on it and they have range tours on our ranch to show other ranchers how these things can be done. But it takes a lot of horseback time to do that and it's-I mean, we're keeping the cattle up higher on the hills of the mountains and stuff. And we've scattered water around up on the mountains, we built-developed springs and put water troughs in and stuff to keep the cattle away from these riparian areas. (misc.)DT: Today we've talked a little bit about your rural land efforts through Hixon Land and Cattle and your own personal property in South Texas. I understand you're also in the urban land development business through Hixon Properties and...00:31:06 - 2334

TH: Urban redevelopment is how we prefer it.DT: Okay. How does that work interface with some of your interests in conservation?00:31:18 - 2334TH: They-it-they're-the two really don't relate a whole lot except I just hate what's happening with urban s-or urban sprawl, so to speak, and a-and the word ranchette just turns my stomach. But it's-we just prefer to do all of our stuff in-in an urban setting and-and redevelop other-or-or properties that already exist and we've done pretty good job of that in downtown San Antonio. And I just can't see us ever going out to the outskirts of town and doing anything, it just-just won't happen as long as I'm around.DT: And how do you make a viable business out of doing work in redevelopment downtown when it seems like a lot of home developers, at least, and then some commercial developers, feel like they can only make a profitable business out of developing on the fringe. 00:32:33 - 2334

TH: Well, you-I-I think they're wrong and I think we're going to see more of a move towards urban living and-and new types of housing in San Antonio. There's a whole lot of space and it's happening to some degree in these older neighborhoods, between where we are right now and downtown, of people going in and-and redoing and fixing up some really old frame houses. And I think there'll be more and more of that. Some of these neighborhoods that are really bad, I think maybe some of them will disappear and I'm talking here on the north side mostly and close in on the south side. 00:33:24 - 2334That some of these areas will be developed into-more into condos or row houses or maybe even some high-rises. One of the drawbacks of getting more done downtown is a lack of grocery stores close in. You got to get in a car and drive to-or-or to drive a little ways to-to get any groceries. Well, you do anywhere, I guess, but it's more of a pain downtown than it is if you live out in this area. DT: What do you think it is that's bringing people back downtown?00:34:03 - 2334

TH: Yeah, I think people want to-I think it's just new trend starting. I think people want to live closer to downtown because of the miserable highway system we've gotten, just horrible traffic twice a day for a lot of people working in the downtown area. And you know, a lot of businesses going out north to-to meet that challenge, but there's some things that-that stay downtown. And it's-I've had people tell me, used to be at 00:34:40 - 2334work in fifteen, twenty minutes and it now takes them minimum of forty-five minutes to get to work. And that's too long; it's too expensive, too polluting, it's just not the right way to do things.DT: I think when we were visiting about this earlier; you were saying that the pressures of sprawl became pretty clear to you with your involvement with Government Canyon State Natural Area. 00:35:12 - 2334TH: Yeah.DT: And I was wondering if you could tell not only the story about the natural areas and sprawl, but also the whole, long history of that acquisition and how it was assembled. It's just a fascinating story.00:35:26 - 2334

TH: Yeah, it's-I can't remember all the details on Government Canyon but I got involved-I was chairman of the board of the Parks and Wildlife Foundation of Texas and-no, actually that happened-it started when I was still on the commission.

And we had a policy, at that time on the commission, of not buying any land. But state wouldn't buy any and the Parks and Wildlife Department wouldn't buy any. And this particular tract came up at a very reasonable price, it came from, oh, Resolution Trust, one of the government agencies in the 80's and it was just too cheap that I did-I felt that we should 00:36:12 - 2334move on it. Plus it was helping protect our aquifer, the Edwards Aquifer. And plus, it had a lot of sex to it historically, environmentally and it-it was just something that was too good to be passed up. And I convinced my fellow commissioners that we had to make an exception here and Parks and Wildlife Department put some money in. Trust for Public Land, I can't say enough about them. They-they really stepped up and-and assembled a lot of money and they got a sum-I can't remember the dollar numbers, but a lot from SAWS here in-in San Antonio. The city put in money. Parks and Wildlife 00:37:03 - 2334Department did and there was another agency that-that did a lot. I can't remember right now. The-but this place was in the heart of something that several years-many years back was going to be part of a new-whole new city out there called San Antonio Ranch. And there was something-they were trying to develop land for a hundred thousand people or something to live there and this-this Government Canyon area was going to be part of that. And that went by the wayside, thank goodness. And gradually that first piece of land was four thousand acres and I can't remember what we paid for that. But it was purchased-the whole place was-is right at nine thousand now. Eighty-six hundred 00:37:56 - 2334acres, I think, and it was purchased in about five different tracts. Some of it for-was given to us. Some of it came as low as five hundred dollars an acre. The last piece we bought, I think, was at ten thousand an acre, so you can see the-what's happening in that area and, fortunately, a lot of factors came together at the right time to put this together. And it's-it's-it's a pretty special place and-and-as I said, we've-we have all these different historical, environmental, protecting our water system, there-there is just an unbeatable combination. And I think the Parks and Wildlife Department 00:38:52 - 2334is going to adapt this model for future land pur-purchases. It-close in to an -ur-ur-urban situation and have a water feature of some sort can help protect some water. And this is-it's pretty special.DT: You mentioned that it had a historic feature to the land. What was that?00:39:20 - 2334

TH: Well, they-this-they call it Government Canyon because supposedly there's a government trail going up to the army post, up a bend there and above and to the west. And I assume that's correct, but there was an old ranch and some of the old ranch buildings are still left and old wonderful old stone buildings there. And, you know, there're dinosaur footprints in the streambeds and just a-I refer to a piece of land like that is having a lot of sects to it and it's-and this place does. DT: You also said that it has some endangered species aspects to it that appealed to you?00:40:09 - 2334TH: Yeah, well, I don't how many people it appealed to-these species appeal to, but they are the little cave spiders or some little minnow or such that don't register very high on a lot of people's scale and not real high on mine. But, you know, I think we ought to try and keep these things going, too, while we can.DT: I think the third thing you said is that there is a recharge aspect to the piece of land. How does that function?00:40:43 - 2334TH: This is ground zero for recharging the Edwards Aquifer. This is a major part of it and it-this protects it from getting paved over and it helps prevent pollution and such.DT: One thing I've heard is that you and your wife were involved in trying to build a visitor's center out there to try and educate people about this state natural area. Can you describe why you decided to get involved in that and what it encompasses?00:41:20 - 2334

TH: Well, by the time all of this came along, I was chairman of the board of-of the Parks and Wildlife Foundation of Texas and I'm-I decided Government Canyon was going to be my pet project. And I don't know if that's proper or legal or what have you, but that's the way it is-was. And I just gave some money, undesignated for what they want to do, but to support the park and-and help build some infrastructure. There was nothing there except one old ranch building that'd been used by hunters over the years. And we-we had to build something for the public there because I firmly believe these 00:42:00 - 2334places ought to be open and accessible to the public. But anyway, I gave them some money and they decided to name that building after my wife and I. It's very nice of them. I wasn't around when that decision was made but I accepted it with great humility-some humility. DT: When we've been talking earlier, you were saying how important you thought it was to expose the public, and kids, in particular, I think, to the out of doors and I was wondering if you could maybe elaborate a little bit about that and how Government Canyon's visitor center might've figured into that?00:42:46 - 2334TH: Well, the visitor's center's got classrooms in it, too, and-and hopefully-and it's already started to some degree and it has before the park was officially opened and you'd get classes of youngsters out there and give them a little tour and show them there's a world outside that doesn't exist around or function around McDonald's or concrete or the automobile or what have you and let them poke around the out of doors. And then we'll 00:43:20 - 2334show them how-or eventually how our water systems work here in-with the Edwards Aquifer and such. The-I-I-to me, this is extremely important to get kids off of concrete and then into a outdoor area and l-let them have an outdoor experience and just-I worry about the city's urban people making rural decisions at the ballot box in voting for things that they really have little to no knowledge of. And-and, you know, an-anything we can do for education is-is going to be a plus for-for our cause.DT: I guess along those same lines, I think that you and your wife have been involved with the San Antonio Zoo and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the zoo and why you think it's merited support?00:44:28 - 2334

TH: Yeah. Yeah. That was a long time ago when we were involved with the zoo. I mean, a long time ago, but we still support it very much and it was just-I was fairly young when I was asked to go on the board there and was kind of flattered. And I was asked to be president of it and I was really flattered for that and we-I-I spent a good bit of time involved there. The-Louis DeSabado and such and we saw the zoo come a long way. It's one of the finest zoos in the world. And my wife took to it immediately, she was on the first group of docents there and-and the zoos are important because of-they can breed stuff in captivity and they have the knowledge and the facilities and the people that can handle these things. And if we need-well, a-a good example here is the whooping crane. I don't how many whooping cranes the San Antonio Zoo has raised 00:45:39 - 2334and some of them have stayed in captivity and I think some of them are being released. We now have some Attwater's prairie chickens over there, which I think is probably a doomed species, but we got to keep trying to keep it going. We can keep them going in captivity, but in the wild, I-it's going to be tough.DT: Why do you think that is?00:46:04 - 2334

TH: I'm not sure. I don't-nobody knows. You know, if we-if we knew, we could maybe do something about it. But people have been trying for a lot of years now and-on-on the prairies where they traditionally existed and some of them don't seem to have changed that much. And they've done the burning and traditional ways of maintaining the prairies and they just-just had to work. I know there was a penguin-there was a heath hen back east and there was a very famous case study in the biological world and 00:46:40 - 2334there were 2500 of them left, think Martha's Vineyard or someplace like that. And 2500 of them wasn't enough genetic variability to keep the species going and that might be what we have here. (misc.)DT: We were just talking about the Attwater prairie chicken and it's fate and I understand The Nature Conservancy was involved in trying to protect some land near Eagle Lake and across the state now for other species and that you've been involved on the board, not just on the state chapter but also through the national board. And I was curious, what was it about the organization that appealed to you and got you involved in it?00:47:34 - 2334

TH: I-The Nature Conservancy appeals to me because I like what they do. They buy land and preserve it, keep it going and that's very basic because they do a lot of other stuff now, too. The-my involvement goes back for a long, long time. I was on the national board, oh, probably in the 80's sometime for several years and I was probably not a great board member there. And now I'm on the-on the state board. I-and I've been involved with the Idaho Nature Conservancy to some degree, too. Not on the board, but in support and there's a Hixon sharptail grouse preserve in Idaho and here they've just 00:48:32 - 2334done a lot of good work. They had tough years, oh, probably ten, twelve years ago, back when Andy Sansom was Executive Director of The Nature Conservancy here in the state and had big, big problems with ranchers, in particular in west Texas. They-and Andy really got things smoothed over and at least got people talking to each other. For a while, that wouldn't even happen and we had some meetings-this was back in my Parks and Wildlife days-and we had couple of meetings in west Texas that I wasn't sure what was going to happen. I approached them with some trepidation. But the-you know, everybody talks now and everybody gets along. I heard one rancher say out there at a 00:49:32 - 2334meeting one day that he would rather see his ranch split up into four-acre ranchettes than see The Nature Conservancy get it. Well, I can't do much, nobody can do much about that sort of mindset except, you know, point out the error of his ways and-and-and-and hope his neighbors don't feel the same way. But it's come a long way. We've got an excellent guy that lives out in west Texas, lives at Fort Davis, James King, who's really doing a bang up job on landowner relations. And Andy was very good at it. The new Executive Director, Carter Smith, is very good at it. And it's-it just come a long way. 00:50:20 - 2334Now the Conservancy doesn't have to buy the land, either, and they will take conservation easements. In some cases, they purchased-in very important tracts, they purchased conservation easements and-and they're chipping away at it. You know, they're-Andy Sansom told me once, he said if we had a billion dollars to spend buying land in the state of Texas, you couldn't change the ownership by one percent. And with Texas being-well, depends on who you ask-but 97 percent privately owned, that's not very much. In fact, I think we're probably right at the bottom of the pack in the United States for public lands per capita. DT: Well, how do you think the Conservancy-given what a tall order they've got-how do you think they strategically focused on particular areas that were worth conserving?00:51:29 - 2334

TH: Well, the-the-the-the Conservancy finds the important places. They've got their own scientific teams and they work closely with Parks and Wildlife and they find the most important pieces. That doesn't mean they won't take something at a brother-in-law price or for nothing. It's maybe not quite as important. But that's-that's how they determine what they get. And as I said, they-I used the term earlier, they're chipping away at it and that's the best we can do now. That's the best we'll ever be able to do.DT: You said that ten, twelve years ago, things were pretty polarized between The Nature Conservancy and some private landowners. What was the tension about?00:52:21 - 2334

TH: The landowners didn't want the federal government anyplace near them and sometimes, in some cases, the Conservancy will resell the land that they get to a agency of the federal government and so the feds end up with it. And I-I must say, I'm not 100 percent on that. In some cases, like land that adjoins a national park or something like that, it's-it's the only way to go, probably. And I-and I can understand people's concerns about that. The other concern that the ranchers and-had was losing the income from taxes because Nature Conservancy doesn't have to pay taxes and there were-you 00:53:12 - 2334know, there was a lot of concern about that. The Conservancy sin-since has a policy that they will pay the taxes-pay a fee in lieu of taxes. They didn't want to call it taxes for reasons-various reasons. But they pay the fees to the b-counties involved in lieu of taxes. And I don't know where anybody has said that they can't take land. People used to feel that the Conservancy could just come in and take it. They couldn't. They-they 00:53:43 - 2334have no rights, the legal rights to take land. They bought-bought it in an open market. A willing buyer-or willing seller, willing buyer. And the-the other organization I'd like to touch on, too, is the Texas Wildlife Association, TWA. It was right there, leading the pack in hatred for the-for The Nature Conservancy. And few years ago, and we all sat down-I say, we all and I did and a couple of other guys-and sat down with board members and said this stuff's got to stop. And then-they're all friends of mine and I said we've got to get along. We want the same thing. See, we want to preserve some of 00:54:29 - 2334this stuff that we've got, some of these natural areas and we aren't going to get them all, but let's work together on this and there are ways we can help keep these big ranches together. And-and now TWA and Nature Conservancy work very closely together, which is-which is great. DT: You mentioned some of the strategies for trying to keep these big ranches together in the face of estate taxes, I guess. What do you think are the most promising ways to do that?00:55:05 - 2334

TH: Eliminate the estate tax would be a giant step forward. I think that's probably not going to happen. There are ways-well, selling conservation easements is one way because you can put some money into the hands of the landowner without him having to sell off part of the land. He can still operate the ranch pretty much as he's done. The Nature Conservancy's going to have some oversight on that, however, because they-they-they have to just to protect their investment.DT: What do you think about the wildlife valuation, the exemption that sort of tracks the ag exemption on land taxes?00:55:57 - 2334

TH: Yeah, that-we refer to that as the Garner Fuller bill. He was one of the guys that really pushed that bill to get it-get it done. I'm-I'm all in favor of it. Hunting's become much more valuable than-than the ranching end of things. And I've made this statement before; I said there aren't any ranches in Texas sold today as ranches. They're all sold as hunting places and that's the way of the world right now. And weekend places and, you know, people do still continue to ranch on them, but if it wasn't for that hunting, there wouldn't be much value of them-on them. In fact, I've said if-if it wasn't for the hunting that south Texas land would be worth about thirty bucks an acre.DT: It's just that the cattle business doesn't pay as it once did.00:56:54 - 2334TH: No, it's looking pretty-cattle business is looking pretty good these days, but it hasn't in the past. It was pretty grim. The last few years have been pretty darn good too.(misc.)[End of Reel 2334]