Tonya Kleuskens Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: Let's resume, I think we were asking you about the coalition that you and others helped forge between people in either side of the political spectrum from different kinds of trade groups and some individuals who maybe were unaffiliated. I was wondering how you managed to keep that group together and if there were any schisms that you saw that arose?00:01:38 - 2248

TK: I-I would like to give all of the credit for being able to do that to Delbert Devin. He was just very, very open to working with what might have been termed as tree huggers or the pacifist hippies. You know, he was open to whatever and in many occasions this group of farming, commodity-representing men were sitting down at the table with some guys with long hair or, you know, things that they probably wouldn't of 00:02:10 - 2248had in common with people before. But the-but they came together and they were very open to it and I think Delbert-one thing that I didn't mention before that was in-in 1986 when Deaf Smith County's landowners were identified and it was, this is a characterization spot, Swisher County was eliminated. So at that time, Delbert Devin and the STAND from Tulia could have had just dropped away and gone about their-or 00:02:40 - 2248resume their lives as they were before, but they didn't. They hung in there with us and they-they continued to-to lead, you know, with-with Delbert leading the-the task force. He was our director and drove to the office that had been donated by the corn growers-he drove to Dimmitt every day and-and manned that office and made sure that all the phone calls were answered and so forth. So I really think it was-was with his strong leadership. But I also think that the issue itself, because, you know, the-the 00:03:16 - 2248group of-of people in this area that were identified as affected and-and their land was-was marked, that I think that it wasn't something that they were used to. You know, I don't think that they were-were used to causing a political stink or-or having to be very involved. You know, and as I mentioned to you, I have mused since a-about how odd the circumstance was in-in that day in 1986, whenever I called them up and said, you know, the Department of Energy has targeted your property and let's get 00:03:47 - 2248together and talk about it. And, you know, this is who I am and-and they all just said, yes, you know, I was in my mid twenties and these men were all near or beyond fifty and I just thought how unusual it was that they listened to me and that they believed what I had to say. But we, very quickly, formed a coalition, and not a one of them said I want to sell, I'm done, you know, count me out-not a one of them. They were-they were all willing to do what they needed to do to preserve the aquifer and-and to preserve their property for future generations. DT: You talked about the role of Delbert Devin and some of these other participants, what do you think your role was in trying to shepherd this effort along?00:04:41 - 2248

TK: Well, I don't know what my role was. Early on, you know, I served as an officer in POWER [People Opposed Waste Energy Repositories], then as-as we moved into the days of the nuclear waste task force, then I became POWER's representative and we shifted the officers to include more people. But-but mostly because I had the willingness to speak and the ability to travel, I just was a traveling companion for Delbert Devin and together we-we did most of the 00:05:13 - 2248lobbying. There were some meetings where we had congressional days-we'd go to a meeting in Washington and then we'd have, you know, this is a day to-to speak to your representatives and we would all divide up. But then there were also the times when we just needed to go and-and-and talk about a specific as-aspect of the issue. So I-I went to Austin very many times with Delbert and Washington D.C. very many times. DT: Can you recount any of those trips to D.C. or to Austin?00:05:47 - 2248

TK: Well, the very first one that we took, we went to one of the annual meetings at the Department of Energy would hold for the repository search. The Office of Civilian Radioactive Waste Management's annual meeting, I think was the term and we went to one of their meetings. Delbert didn't want to do it and Georgia didn't want to do it because they, you know, they didn't want to go to the other side, but I felt that this was very important to go and pick up the literature, listen to what they're telling one another 00:06:23 - 2248at the meetings, and drink a glass of wine with these guys, you know, see-see what's going on. So-so we did and-and they both agreed later that-that it was a good thing 00:06:34 - 2248to do.

There was one trip to Washington where sometimes some of the citizen's organizations like Citizen's Clearinghouse for Hazardous Waste or Public Citizen would-would have a member that would offer for us to come into their home. And one-on one particular occurrence, Georgia [Auckerman] went to Washington with me and we ended up staying in the home of one of the activists and she lived in a completely different environment than the way we live here in the Panhandle. She lived in a four story 00:07:09 - 2248house-well it was four stories because of the basement, it was three stories plus the basement, but there was someone different that lived on each story, different family or different group of people and then they shared a-a community kitchen among them and they-they shared this for housing costs. And we-we were given a-a room to stay in on the second floor and I just remember this being a really different thing for Georgia. Somehow, I adapt to change very well, but she just wondering if the sheets were clean, 00:07:45 - 2248you know, is it okay if we go into the kitchen and get something to eat. You know, it was very different from the way life is in the Panhandle of Texas. But some of those experiences were very good for all of us to-to broaden our horizons and-and expose us to-to other things in the United States other than the Texas Panhandle. DT: Can you comment maybe on how the experience with the waste site and fighting it and working with your neighbors changed you?00:08:18 - 2248

TK: I don't know, they would probably all have something to say about that, but, you know, I was-I was very young and-and just doing what seemed important to be done. There wasn't someone speaking up and-and so it just seemed important to be done so I did it. I don't know if-if I'm just that strong-minded or if there was a-was a stronger influence, but it all came together and it-it worked out very well and of course bonds of 00:08:47 - 2248friendship that have-have lasted decades-so I'm very pleased about that. And I specifically enjoyed meeting the-the varied people and the opportunity to eat foods that are different to me and get to know them. I really enjoyed that. And most of the people, which, you know, I don't-I don't want to sound ugly, but most of the people were much more educated than-than the-my general friends and neighbors here in the Texas Panhandle and I felt that that broadened my horizons a tremendous amount and I enjoyed it. DT: Speaking of education, I'm curious what lessons you might have taken from this fight against the high-level site to this recent struggle against the city of Hereford's proposal to build a municipal site-waste site on the outskirts of town. 00:09:47 - 2248

TK: I think that it was be-there are some strong connections between the repository issue and this particular thing. Of course at-in 1987 when-when the issue was ended for us, I had children going into junior high school and-and that was-became-junior high and high school was much more demanding than-than infants and I had never anticipated that, but that's a-another lengthy story. But-so I just kind of immersed myself in going to ballgames and debate tournaments and-and all the things that-that 00:10:20 - 2248were required and keeping up with prom dresses and, you know, so forth. And so I really wasn't involved in what was going on environmentally, so in 2000 when the city of Hereford applied to the Texas Natural Resources Conservation Commission, they-I wasn't paying a lot of attention. You know, I-I don't pay city taxes, I don't get to use the municipal dump, I don't get to have municipal water where I live, so I wasn't paying attention.

One of our neighbors came to us in May of 2001 and said, TNRCC is holding 00:11:05 - 2248a-a hearing about this, would you come and listen? So we did and that night what I heard, I-I was just so astounded that the-that the city commissioners or Aller Engineering that they had hired to-to write their proposal, their application for the permit to TNRCC, you know, I was astounded that none of them had-had caught that that the aquifer was between sixty and sixty-seven feet deep, that there were neighboring springs that flowed, you know, twenty-four hours a day, year round, and never ceased 00:11:46 - 2248right there in the area, even in very dry summers when we're irrigating out of the aquifer, the-one of these springs in particular continues to flow and the people that live down there stood up and talked about it and, you know, they-they wrote it down and-and taped the conversation, but then in February of 2002 when it came out, when the TNRCC 00:12:14 - 2248response came out, they said that by the end of February, they were going to-to grant the-the permit and that they really found, you know, nothing of particular concern in the comments that were brought up. So, at that time, John Templer called me, who was-who was one-owns a ranch there, he happens to live in-in Amarillo and he's neighbors with a man named Bruce Campbell who was the manager for Mason and Hanger when they were-were the contractor for the Department of Energy at Pantex and I had gotten 00:12:51 - 2248to know Bruce during my time on the Citizen's Advisory Board and so Bruce tells him to call me. He says, I think you need to call Tonya, I think she could help. So I came home that day to a message from Bruce saying that he had-had given my name and telephone number to John Templer and, you know, would I talk to him. Of course I had been visiting with Wade Lewis who owns the property nearest to the site that-that Hereford applied for the landfill. Hereford really started out with very good intentions. The-the 00:13:25 - 2248city council-they owned four sections of-of land, they needed to build a new wastewater treatment plant, they thought that, at the time in 2000 that should they need it, that-that they would apply for a permit. I don't even know if any of these council people knew how deep the water was when-when they originally started the process. So, you know, it-it would-wouldn't have affected very many people if they could do it on their own property. I-I kind of thought that it was a bit of irony for mother nature that the only property they owned in the county has the most shallow water. If you-we're four miles north of-of that location here and our water's three hundred feet deep. 00:14:10 - 2248All over the county, it's generally, you know, in that vicinity, three to four hundred feet deep, especially when you go west. So, this shallow water is such an anomaly in the county and it's the property the city owns.

So, I-I told John Templer, I said, well, you know, let's all get together and-and talk about this before the end of the month because we were going to have to file for contested case hearing before-before the first of March or-or the city would have the permit. So, Wade Lewis arranged for a meeting and-00:14:45 - 2248and let the other landowners know, which was Ronny and Kay Mahaley and Roy and Renee Johnson. So we met at the community center in Hereford and they said, you know, John Templer was really outspoken, I think Bruce Campbell had, you know, explained things to him well. He said, I don't think we need to go to a local attorney, we need an environmental attorney, someone who has done this before. We don't have a lot of time, we need to-to move on this. And-and the other folks, which were all00:15:16 - 2248ranchers, said sounds good to me. So I had agreed to-to make some phone calls and see who I could find. I had thought that we might have someone in Amarillo that was involved in the STAND board, so I-I called Sandra Webb in Amarillo and she didn't have time in the two week time frame we had to get the contested case hearing filed to do it, so she called me back the next day and said I found somebody, it's Rick Lowerre. And I said, I would have called him first, but I just imagined that he was too busy, you know, on two weeks notice to get something like this accomplished. But he agreed to do it and 00:15:54 - 2248we provided maps and information and-and he got the contested case hearing filed-or the request for it. The-the commission meeting that they had set to determine if they were going to grant the contested case hearing was in June the 26th of this year. Most of the commissioners and the city manager that were interviewed, once, you know, it was news that we had filed, said it wasn't very likely that we would be granted a hearing, you know, that they had all their "P's" crossed and "I's" dotted and-and that the application was well done and-and that it would be okay. DT: Can you describe that petition because I understood that the landfill didn't have either a liner or the slope sides that many landfills would have and it wasn't a very protected design, is that true?00:16:45 - 2248

TK: Yes, it was because of the arid exemption and the arid exemption allows for areas with an annual rainfall of twenty-five inches or less to dig their pits without protection, without lining, sloping sidewalls, which you would have to do to line. That-with the assumption that if-if you get less than twenty-five inches of rainfall a year it's not going to permeate. But especially here in the Panhandle where we receive snow, that's not always the case. December a year ago we received twenty inches of snow, you know, it 00:17:20 - 2248took a month to melt. That setting on top of a-of a-of a landfill mound, it would have permeated, you know, it would have-it would have melted from the ground up first and-and seeped through. I think that the arid exemption is beginning to be looked at again because there was some things that when it was created that the-that we just didn't think about to include. But they were-were definitely within the arid exemption in filing for that. They had to have less acreage...(Misc.)00:18:00 - 2248

TK: So, when the-when the news came out that-that we had filed, you know, there was quite a bit of doubt that-that the TNRCC would grant the-the contested case hearing. The city manager at Hereford had reported to one of the reporters that it would be completely out of character for them to do that. So, they certainly didn't anticipate that-that it would make a difference. Well the hearing was held then on June the 26th, only Roy Johnson was able to attend because the rest of us were very involved in the 00:18:32 - 2248growing season already. And so he-he did go and went with Rick Lowerre and quite to everyone's amazement, the contested case hearing was granted. And the executive director had, in the meantime, recommended that they-they limit those that are affected because we had submitted a group of affected parties and executive director wanted to limit that to just one of two people that were-were very close to the landfill site. But the commission, when-when it-the final ruling came out was they included everybody. They said that everyone had filed had just cause and they included everyone. The-I00:19:15 - 2248think the city attorney and the manager were-were very much in shock at that time, they-they never anticipated that-that that could happen. So we-we just con-continued at that point to-to-to follow the contested case hearing process because that was the only way it was-was going to be stopped. So the TNRCC then set the next step in the process for September 19th, which was to be held in Hereford. In the meantime, somewhere in early August or late July, the commission met and they were to discuss00:19:57 - 2248whether or not they were to allow their attorney to talk with Rick Lowerre, you know, whether or not they were to negotiate on any of the items of concern.

And at that meeting, you know, they voted unanimously, but what it came out reported the next day in the newspaper was that they had-had voted to go ahead with the landfill. There was a little discussion about the landfill, mostly from those in attendance, but, you know, the-the vote was specifically for giving permission for the city attorney. So we-we really 00:20:35 - 2248weren't sure and after that meeting the-the mayor came up to a group of us, his name is Bob Josher and he's a very successful cattleman in the area. And he had said, you know, he-he suspected that it was going to turn out the way we wanted to if we just wouldn't push too hard-that he didn't want us pushing some of the commissioners into making a decision that they would regret later. You know, I really mused about that later. I really wasn't sure, you know, if-if we should, you know, lighten up on public education, you know, how we should handle it, but another twist of irony in this is that the-the man that lives closest owns the-the property with the springs also works as manager of one of 00:21:25 - 2248Bob Josher's feed yards. So, you know, I spoke with him and he said, you know, I really think that, you know, the hearing is coming up in September, I think we need to-to just continue with the process and do what we were going to do. So we-we continued on to develop a citizen's organization because it was our intent at the time with Rick's advice that we submit a citizen's organization in place of some of the landowners when we went to the September 19th hearing. So the-the news came out then in early September that 00:22:02 - 2248the organization was forming. In fact, the-the newspaper editor referred to it as a-a local pack organization. So, we have no chart or anything, you know, we just wanted to put together what we were calling the water heritage group and allow an opportunity for people who live in town, but can't prove they're affected because of proximity, you know, to-to be participate and have a voice in-in the process.

The very next week was the Monday before the September 19th hearing and that was the regularly scheduled city 00:22:39 - 2248commission meeting and the manager called and-and asked for us to be there and we went and they voted unanimously to with-withdraw their permit application. The next day the letter that the city attorney wrote withdrew it with prejudice, which means that they can never reapply-that that particular piece of land can never be considered again. So we-we were all in complete shock and the-the major was so very gracious in-in-when he spoke with the Amarillo newspaper the next day, he said, they pointed out the water concerns to us in the beginning, we ignored them, they took their concerns to 00:23:22 - 2248Austin-Austin and we started to listen. So, you know, he said we were wrong and-and we recognized it and we wanted to correct the situation. So, I-I was just very amazed. You know, earlier in the summer, I really thought that it-that the problem wasn't that there was a potential for contamination, but the problem was going to be egos of people who had a great amount of time invested in reading application permits, trying to make decisions, and, you know, at the last minute when they were about to be granted the 00:23:57 - 2248permit, we intercede with the contested case hearing request. I thought that was going to be the problem, but I have to admit I was wrong, you know, the major was very, very gracious about realizing that there was potential water contamination. Each of the commissioners went around and spoke that night and said, you know, that there was a-a glimmer of a chance of contamination that they-they didn't want to do that and that they wanted to correct it. So, two weeks later on a Sunday afternoon we held a-appreciation 00:24:30 - 2248hamburger cookout down by one of the springs on Wade Lewis's place. The one commissioner that was angry and-and voted that night-he voted with them, he said to keep from-keep us from causing them to spend more money, but not because they were wrong. He came to the-he was one of the few, there were two commissioners only plus the mayor that came to the appreciation cookout, and he came. So, you know, I was-I was very impressed with the quality of character of our local leaders and really struck by the difference in our community and people's openness to listen and-and to-and to consider possibilities in-in the last fifteen years. DT: Maybe you can look back over your experience over these last fifteen years and-I'm curious what lessons you've drawn from being involved in the high-level waste struggle and then this municipal effort that you were involved in more recently. What sort of message have you gotten from this about either the problems waste faces or the problems of organizing citizens around a common goal? What have you learned?00:25:54 - 2248

TK: I think that-that time and population has just-has just changed the-the character of the-of the way we function as a group and in communities. And what I mean is that the-the amount of information to us about growing populations and available fresh water, the-in this area where it does rain less than twenty-five inches a year, you know, where we're completely dependent on the Ogallala Aquifer and whether or not it depletes at a certain rate or it doesn't-we-people have had to learn to pay 00:26:33 - 2248attention to those kinds of things because the vast openness where we can just take waste and dispose of them no longer exists because of population growth and worldwide the way consumption affects waste on a global level. You know there's no way to escape it and there's no way to escape it in the news and so I think that-that people are certainly beginning to think more about interacting with our environment for pre-our own preservation as opposed to a word that I heard recently used about dam construction was subjugating the earth and I thought, you know, that really explains a lot that-that in, you know, in that time when the-when the dams were being built along the Grand Canyon 00:27:24 - 2248that it was a-a, you know, it was a real challenge for-for man to subjugate the-the earth, if I'm saying that correctly. And-and we've had to move a little ways away from that because we've-we've learned that in-in some ways we can't do that. That when humanity is gone the earth is going to heal itself and clean up the air and clean up the water and-and we don't mean anything to the earth, we're-we're just trouble. DT: So you think that the message is one of humility of consciousness of the limits of the earth-humility about technology or understanding the constraints of the natural resources?00:28:05 - 2248

TK: Well, understanding of the con-constraints of natural resources along with-with some humility too, that-that we cannot control the natural elements. You know, there's so much that we understand about it, but there's also so much that we don't. And this little plot of-of land down here is-is a very good example because the-while the water is sixty-seven feet deep in that one spot, as you move toward the Tierra Blanca 00:28:29 - 2248Creek, there are springs that-that are-are flowing-some not more than a mud puddle, but at least one that-that flows twenty gallons a minute in the heat of summer. You know, it doesn't run down the creek very far, but we-but it let's us know that there's some characteristic going on there in terms of hydrology that we don't' necessarily understand because they-they don't know if it's water on its way to the aquifer, if it's 00:28:59 - 2248water coming from the aquifer being pushed up through fissures in the rock, or if it's just the water puddling in the shallow areas and moving over there. And when we talked with representatives of the High Plains Underground Water District out of Lubbock, they said they're simply was not enough information about the hydrology in that area for them to-to make a definitive statement about what was going on or how it might happen. You 00:29:33 - 2248know, they're-they're just areas beneath the earth where we can-we can drill holes but we can't see and we-we certainly can't control when it rains and where it rains. And I think that as a whole, that there is some humility about that. You know, during the industrial era as we came into that, it seemed that we were going to learn to control everything and-and we're not. I mean, we've just come to the point where-where we have to understand we can't-we have to learn to interact. DT: Looking to the future, what do you see as being the big challenges and opportunities in conservation-is it trying to understand the limits of what we're technically able to do or is other issues that you haven't discussed so far?00:30:11 - 2248

TK: The-the short-term ones that we're going to have to look at are going to be water management and-and waste management. DT: What are your big concerns in those respects for the Panhandle?00:30:27 - 2248

TK: For the Panhandle we have BFI who has a regional landfill near Canyon. You know, we-we know what the lim-the life of the permit for it is, but we don't know what the-the realistic life of the landfill is going to be, you know, if water contaminating is discovered or if BFI should have any financial difficulties than all of the smaller communities that are sending waste there will have to deal with their own. And 00:30:53 - 2248the-the issue for Hereford continues to be what will we do with it, you know, what is plan B if BFI for some reason can no longer take the truck loads that go over there daily. The-the four sections that the city owns are all within a six-mile radius to the municipal airport. After their application was filed in 2000, there was a new EPA ruling about 00:31:18 - 2248landfills being sighted within the six-mile radius. So from this point forward, none of that property is acceptable for landfill site. So, the-the city will eventually have to look beyond that and some place else for land filling. And that-so that brings about the questions about waste stream, you know, how do you limit the-the amount of stuff that goes into your landfills so that you have less to deal with? DT: So you mentioned some of the waste management issues, can you talk just briefly about the water management questions that concern you? Is it about the water supply?00:31:55 - 2248

TK: Yes, available water supply, you know, specifically. The conservation measures that need to be taken so that a growing population can live off the limited amount of fresh water that we have available. You know, reservoirs in the Panhandle help, but when we're having times of drought and the reservoirs are going down, you know, there's a complete dependency on the Ogallala Aquifer. So we just need to-to be very conscientious about that, not only in growing crops that consume less water, but 00:32:32 - 2248managing our water better, in-in town as well, you know, watering lawns, growing plants that-that are less water dependent more xeriscaping, things of that nature. We're going to have to give it a lot of thought all across Texas because we-we have learned, you know, that it's feast or famine, it's either raining until the water's knee deep, or it doesn't rain for years. So there's going to take some water management to be able to be sure that there's municipal water available. DT: Considering the challenges you've mentioned, what sort of advice would you give to your children or when they arrive your grandchildren how to respond to some of these problems?00:33:20 - 2248

TK: That's a very good question. You know, I think that in terms of environment to pay attention, you know, pay attention to what-how your energy consumption affects the atmosphere of the earth-pay attention how your water consumption and your waste disposal-pay attention so that you're not being more a part of the problem than necessary. This-and education-I remember in the 60's when I was in grade school, we had a lot of Friday afternoon films and during that time frame, there-it was the time frame when the clean water act and you know, many of the clean air and-and 00:34:06 - 2248environmental laws were coming into affect because we had so many polluted rivers and that's what our films were about. Our films were about pollution. I asked my children, when they were going to grade school, you know, are you seeing any films about river pollution or air pollution and they-they were-no, they weren't seeing anything like that. So, you know, I-I think that-that public education and being part of the solution is much better than being part of the problem. DT: One last question we usually ask people, a lot of people are I guess energized to work on these environmental problems because they care about a particular part of their world, part of their land, and I was wondering if there is a particular spot that has that kind of meaning for you-a place that gives you a sense of beauty and serenity? Is there any place like that you could describe?00:35:07 - 2248

TK: All of them. We-it just seems that each place has such a-a unique thing about it. Near here is Palo Duro Canyon where we have spent a great deal of time hiking and ad-admiring the Spanish skirts effects in the rocks and in the cliff sides. The Texas Panhandle sunsets are-are just beyond measure, they are some of the most gorgeous sunsets in the world. There-you know most of the natural environmental places in-in Texas that I have been, the Hill Country, you know, with the live oak trees, each place has-has something very unique.

And if we-if we understood the-the full theory of 00:35:54 - 2248the-the butterfly wing effect around the world, you know, we'd see a little bit more about how each one of these places affects the-the global environment and the-and the continuation of-of the earth's process. But they-every-every one of them has something unique.

And-and I'm not above changing things because with having been a-a lifelong avid gardener, you know, I experiment a lot with-with plants and-and what works. And-and certainly I get a lot of peace from working in the garden. DT: Thanks for telling us about your work and your life and best wishes.00:36:32 - 2248TK: Oh thank you.End of reel 2248End of interview with Tonya Kleuskens