Brandt Mannchen Interview, Part 3 of 3

DT: Could you try to help us understand this phenomena of the Forest Service where the fox is sort of watching the hen house if that's a fair analogy?00:01:50 - 2282

BM: Well, I-I think too, agencies eventually have people in a university study agencies, especially regulatory agencies and what they found is over a period of time they have a tendency to be captured by the people they regulate. A good example is the Federal Communication Commission, which is supposed to manage, you know, our air waves, you know, for the public good, but which is basically giving away our air waves to very large corporations to commercially make money off of us with our air waves. So it's not unusual for that to happen.

I guess in the case of the Forest Service natural resource agencies, and this includes agencies like the Corps of Engineers also, a lot of the laws may not be as proscriptive as environmentalists would like. And the reason we like them proscriptive-we were talking about command and control, you know, talking about a smoke stack and saying you have this limit of a pollution coming out and that's all you can have. We like it proscriptive because there's your target. It's hard-it's easy to understand, you've 00:03:26 - 2282just got to do it. When environmental laws are-say you need to do something but don't really say how to do it or fully explain what they mean by doing it then it-it's very flexible.

And the Forest Service is very good about doing whatever they want to do and-and using the law as an excuse. A good example is National Forest Management Act, which talks in many places about monitoring and inventorying, but the Forest Service twists that in its own manner so that its (?) monitoring and inventory basically says it doesn't have to monitor and inventory. So when Congress isn't proscriptive and the agency has to write the rules and the regulations you can get a big disconnect between what Congress intended versus what the agency is going to do.

And so-so that's one problem with-with the Forest Service is, you know, we'll-we'll point out these inconsistencies to them but it doesn't seem to matter. 00:04:42 - 2282They-they ignore you. They say comment noted and do whatever they're going to do and that's-that's real difficult for a citizen because you know your only alternative after you go through the administrative process with the Forest Service that has to do with when they propose a project, you know, so many comments for scoping when they have an environmental document that comes out a draft document submitting comments for that. When they finalize the document and have a written decision appealing that and then you go through all that and they basically ignore you the whole way your only choice is to sue or just allow it to happen and, you know, that's all you can do. So that's-that's a big hurdle for a citizen to have to deal with is the agencies basically ignoring citizens and-and instead of being public servants basically saying we know what-we're the experts, we know what to do, get out of 00:05:55 - 2282our way, if you don't like it, tough.

So-so that-that's sort of been my experience with the Forest Service in-in many cases. A good example is the-what the Bush Administration calls the Healthy Forest Initiative and we call it the Unhealthy Forest Initiative. In Sam Houston National F-Forest there's a pilot project to streamline the environmental assessment process under the National Environmental Policy Act so that it can be done quicker-the project can go through quicker. In streamlining what they've basically done is reduce public opportunities for participation. And currently in that particular project, which the comment deadline has just ended and the Sierra Club submitted 43 pages-written pages of comments and-and additional about a hundred two hundred pages of attachments to document our assertions in the 00:06:55 - 2282comments. The Forest Service is basically going to burn eight thousand acres every two to five years and log about four thousand acres. And they say that this is-has no significant environmental impact, which is just an absolutely incredible statement to-to make and so, of course, we're contesting that.DT: What do you do about the big lie? I mean where it's not just inaccuracies but it's an entire fabric that's...00:07:34 - 2282

BM: Of lies. Well, I-what I wanted to say too, and I meant to say this back when we were talking about air pollution, but I have come to view my role as an environmentalist as an enabler s-a citizen who enables lawsuits. And by that I mean if you don't participate in the administrative process the federal court system has decided that if, you know, i-let's say the Forest Service makes a proposal and you don't comment throughout the process wherever you have that opportunity, the court system has decided that you don't have the right then to take your concerns to court because you didn't err them during that administrative process. So I have tried to involve myself in many administrative processes; road projects like the Grand Parkway, the Unhealthy Forest Initiative stuff, Big Thicket oil and gas drilling, the 00:08:47 - 2282state implementation plan to reduce ozone exceedances for Houston. And the reason-one of the reasons I've done that is my hope is that at some point someone will want to sue and when they want to sue they will have someone who has participated through the entire process and I can act as the enabler of that lawsuit. And that has-in recent years that has I think partially allowed us to sue on the state implementation plan for the Houston area because of my participation on behalf of the Sierra Club and also I think its enabled us in some of the forestry lawsuits to-to participate. So it's one of the things that keeps me going because, you know, I keep beating my head up against the wall administratively because there's no winning, you know. I mean every once in a while the Forest Service will withdraw something, but basically you don't win too many administratively. And so if I set things up to where 00:09:57 - 2282maybe there's a lawsuit and a lawsuit occurs then I feel like maybe I've served a purpose that no one else is serving. For instance, we have a lawsuit now. It's a national lawsuit that the Sierra Club is involved with with maybe a half a dozen other groups where they're suing the Forest Service for timber sales in about a half a dozen states. And I was approached by the Sierra Club because on behalf of the club I had appealed a timber sale and it turns out that that appeal had the right information in it to be able to be used in this lawsuit.DT: Could you explain Forest Watch and how you document these?00:10:51 - 2282

BM: Sure, sure we-what we do is we have a volunteer program where we go out and if the Forest Service says we want to log a thousand acres somewhere let's say, we'll go out and visit the area and we'll document like what's there, what we consider significant both from a positive and a negative standpoint. And we'll put together this information as-and document it and-and provide it either as comments to the Forest Service if there's a specific proposal or if we go out there where nothing is proposed presently and we find something we will submit a letter to the Forest Service documenting, you know, what we found. You know illegal uses like illegal off road vehicle use, for instance, or something of a positive nature. We find an area that we think would be a good area to designate as future old growth area. The Forest Service under its Forest Plan says it wants the opportunity to designate areas as-as 00:11:57 - 2282old growth. So we're trying to help them by visiting areas and giving them our opinion whether we think these areas would-would be good areas to designate. And it's a lot of fun too, because we get people going out and they write down and say oh, look what we got here and, you know, we document it and we submit it. And-and so Forest Watch kind of is a way for citizens to oversee and monitor the Forest Service and see if they're doing their job and then, you know, we feed that information back to the Forest Service and we use it in lawsuits. We sometimes use it in press conferences and things of that nature, you know, or in Op-Eds or letters to the editor or things of that nature, you know, to try and get some movement from the Forest Service or to try to emphasize that here's something worth protecting that the Forest Service could do positively could take a proactive stance on and do something that-that-that would protect some of the publics resources.DT: Could you talk about another way that you've gotten people out into the landscape to see resource and enjoy it - the Lone Star Hiking Trail? 00:13:11 - 2282

BM: Yeah, there's-the Lone Star Hiking Trail is the longest continuous hiking trail in the state of Texas. It's about 130 miles long and the Sierra Club back in late 1966 was or some members of the Sierra Club were camping in Sam Houston National Forest and were bemoaning the lack of hiking trails in the state of Texas and some one said gee, wouldn't it be great if we had a hundred mile hiking trail? And that was how the Lone Star Hiking Trail was born. And in '67 they went to the Forest Service, got approval to start laying it out, you know, laid out the first part of it in '67 and I think by about '78 they had finished the trail. So it took quite a while to do and ever since that time the-the Sierra Club and others have been maintaining the trail by-by trimming it and keeping it open, making sure that there's markers showing where the trail goes and everything, reporting illegal uses on the trail like-we found like motorcycles using the trail or horseback riders using the trail when they're not 00:14:21 - 2282supposed to and also reporting if we find anything of botanical or ecological significance, you know, on the trail or near the trail. So it-we've been-we get people out to do the trail maintenance, you know, every-every month except for-for November and December, which is hunting season so we-we kind of go somewhere else during hunting season. But otherwise, you know, ten times a year we go out and do trail maintenance on-on the trail, so that other people can hike it and-and enjoy the forest and-and, you know, have a-have a place to go to. So you know, that-that's been one way we've sort of introduced people to Sam Houston National Forest. And you know I always tell people, you know, we come out there to do trail maintenance and remember this is all yours, you know, this is your land. You can come out here whenever you want to and hike and, you know, enjoy yourself, you know. The only thing you need to remember is, you know, take 00:15:22 - 2282care of it. So you know that-that-that's one way that I work to try and introduce people to the natural resources that they own-the public lands that they own that are so valuable. And you know a lot of people in Houston don't even know it exists and it's only 50 miles north of here. So you know in a way that's good because in a way you don't have too much overcrowding, but in a way that's bad because people don't realize what the Forest Service is doing with their clear cutting and other-other practices that they do so they don't yell and holler as much as they would if there were more people out there, so it's sort of a dual edged problem.DT: Could you comment on your role as a witness to ecology and natural resource uses and especially for those of us that are city people that are distracted, don't pay attention, don't realize why it's important to watch and keep an eye on these things, especially when they're shared resources, commonly-held things like the air or the public land?00:16:00 - 2282

BM: Well, you know it's interesting I-I-I hadn't heard myself called it in those terms, a witness, but I guess because it makes some sense. But you know, if citizens own something and they don't take care of it it's not going to get taken care of. If you're the owner of a company and you have employees and you say yeah, run the company and you wander off and you never check in with them and make sure that things are functioning, you know, the way they should it's probably not going to work. And I-I just look at my, you know, we're owners of that property. The Forest Service are the people we hire to look out after that property for us, but I'm the owner and I take personal responsibility for those lands best I can to protect them. And if I don't like the way my employees are operating I let them know that and 00:18:12 - 2282that's the way I look about it with the Forest Service. They're my employees. It's unfortunate that they think that they kind of are the experts and we should shut up, but we're all owners of that land and so we all have an equal responsibility to take care of it.

And so, you know, and it's beautiful, you know, it's-it's just-it really makes a difference in my life when I go out there and spend a day hiking around and seeing just the-the beauty. I-I-I enjoy recognizing what I see. I like to identify vegetation, you know, I like to look for rare plants. I like to see the waters and put my feet in the creeks, you know, and walk around. And-and when I come back, you know, and I go to work the next week I feel the difference, you know, it-it-it really 00:19:08 - 2282assists me not just from a physical standpoint but-but spiritually, you know, it connects me. It makes me feel like, you know, to me that's reality, you know, when I'm walking in the woods. Right here in the city to me this doesn't seem like reality. This seems somehow fake and-and-and-and whatever. Yeah, I don't know if it's a matrix or wha-it's a matrix alright. But you know out there in the woods it just seems like, you know, this is where I'm supposed to be, you know.DT: Is there a particular place in the woods that you enjoy going to?00:19:51 - 2282

BM: Well, I mean there's-there's a number of spots I like, you know. The other thing I really like is, you know, Sam Houston has 163,000 acres, for instance, okay? There's no way in my entire life I'm ever going to get to see all of that, but it's really exciting and fun to go out and explore, you know. I mean it's hard to find exploration anymore, you know, in your regular normal everyday life. Usually it's just a pain in the butt, but to go out and say I've never been here before. I'm going to go out and see what this looks like, see what I can find, see what it feels like, you know. That's so exciting, you know, to-to-to have that. It gives you a sense of accomplishment, a sense of confidence and a feeling of, you know, you feel really good about it, you 00:20:35 - 2282know, about yourself that you went out somewhere you-you didn't know anything about it and you wandered around and you found your way back and, you know, you had a good time and you saw a lot of neat stuff. And so I just consider that just a wonderful reward, you know, to me and I wish-I wish I could get more people to feel that and to-to do that and to experience that because I think if they did maybe we'd understand that-that perhaps we're-our-our daily lives are kind of out of kilter and maybe we-we need to reassess, you know, kind of what we think are-is important and what is a priority, you know, for our lives, you know.DT: What do you think is important?00:21:40 - 2282

BM: Well, I mean we all need a certain level of money, you know, to survive, okay. You know you need a-you need shelter, you need some food, you need some clothes, whatever, but when you g-after you get to that level it seems to me you don't need a whole lot more in money, but I think what you do need is enjoyment of your surroundings, enjoyment of the-the people. You know one of the-the really important things for me that the Sierra Club and-and these other environmental organizations have given me is the ability to meet really wonderful people and to have relationships with them and to learn from them and to sometimes even mentor them myself and to allow me internal growth to do things I never thought I would do personally, but my volunteer positions have allowed me to do.

So I-I tell people that what's important is-are those natural areas, your connection with them because 00:22:59 - 2282without air, without water, without green what's life worth living? In fact, you can't live without them. You know everything we have, you know, this TV, this plastic, where did that come from? That came from plants, you know, a long time ago. Without those plants we wouldn't have plastic, we wouldn't have oil, we wouldn't have gas, we wouldn't have anything. Anything you can think of; metals, where do they come from? They come from the ground. They-they-they're there naturally. We didn't create them. We pulled them out. You know everything we do is coming from natural resources. If we don't take care of our backyard of our nest, you know, wha-how are we going to survive?

You know you keep shittin' in your nest, guess what? It fills up at some point, you know, and you can't live there anymore. And it worries me that this is the only planet we know of that has life. There may be others, but we haven't found them yet. This beautiful planet and we're destroying it and 00:24:04 - 2282what for? For some-some green pieces of paper that we say are worth something and yet we're destroying what we need to breathe, you know, and to live and it just doesn't make sense to me, you know. I would hope that the kids, you know, because we screwed it up for them. You know global warming is going to screw up their lives. You know we can't take that back and all the-all the old growth we've cut. It's not coming back for them.

So I-I hope there's enough left for them to hold on to hope with, you know, because once you make everything so ugly and degrade it so much are people even going to care that it's there, you know. We need to start restoring more and-and-and getting people in touch more because, you know, I think a lot of people are so walled off that they're ignoring everything and-for short 00:25:02 - 2282term pleasure and-and maybe profit, but as a species how are we going to survive, you know? And-and not just survive but live. You know we're not here just to survive. We're here to live, to enjoy ourselves, to express ourselves, to you know, all that-all that stuff inside that we want to be and that we-we-we aspire to be, you know. How-how can we if-if we destroy what it is that keeps us alive, so.DT: Was there a phrase, a little poem, that you had shown me earlier? 00:25:38 - 2282

BM: Yeah, I-I got this thing-a couple weeks ago I was at a Big Thicket Science Conference and I saw this on the screen and I wrote it down real fast because I didn't want to lose it and it's five lines and I just-I think it encapsulates what living is all about and, you know, what living in touch with the environment is about. It says "Work like you don't need money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody is watching. Sing like nobody is listening. Live like it's heaven on earth." And it is heaven on earth. I mean if you ever go out into the forest, go to the coast, go to a beautiful river, I mean if that's not heaven I don't know what is. I've never seen anything humans have created that is as beautiful as a beautiful flowing river, you know, or-or something of that nature. And I marvel at the intricacies of nature and, you know, how did nature do this? How does evolution work? How does all this fit together? You know some people believe in God and some don't, but if there is a God boy, what a fabulous planet it put together and all for us to learn about and to enjoy, not destroy.DT: Do you have anything you'd like to add? DW: How are you able to get volunteers in an age of apathy?00:27:30 - 2282

BM: Well, I-I get it and I don't get it. I mean I-I'm as puzzled as a lot of other environmentalists about how to get people involved and not just involved then coming once but, you know, making it something that they-they'll do. And so I'm not sure I know-I have the answers anymore than them because we're all different people okay; we have different skills. My skill, it's a strange skill. It's reading environmental impact statements and commenting on them. I'm not a people person per say. Some people are people persons. You know they walk into a room full of strangers and they come out with 50 friends, y-you know, people like that. I'm not like that. I'm-I'm-I'm a different kind of person so I-I don't quite have those skills but-but I-I-I try and-and develop those skills in me but I'm not always successful so, you know. You know we're all, you know, environmentalists is this-00:28:34 - 2282is like a, you know, pocket knife. You know its got all these little tools, you know. You know you've got to be the organizer, you've got to be the people person, you've got to be the letter writer, you've got to be the inspirer, you know, all that kind of thing. But it's hard to be good at all those and so some of us are good at some things and some are not. And I-I've gotten some people involved but you know it's really tough in Houston because Houston is not considered a place people come to live. Houston is considered to be a place you come make some money and get the hell out and go live somewhere else. And so this is a transient place and I've seen so many really wonderful people that I have met and developed relationships with leave over the past 25 years, you know, and it's-it's real difficult to keep going, but what else are you going to do? The alternative is jumping off a cliff, right? And I have no intentions of doing that, so you know, I go forward.DT: Go forward.[End of Reel 2282][End of Interview with Brandt Mannchen]