Carla Marshall Interview, Part 2 of 2

00:01:05 - 2399 CM: And the teacher says, can I help you?

DT: Carla, we-we-we talked a little bit about your efforts with The Green Classroom that was very centered here next to Becker Elementary. But that over the last almost ten years now, you've been able to take this-this maybe just a small sample of what you teach at The Green Classroom, but you ma-been able to take it to thousands of kids across the city. And I'm curious how those experiences are different for you and for the kids between being here for a long period of time. You know, not only pre-K through fifth, but also through the course of the year versus visiting a school maybe for a day.

00:01:55 - 2399 CM: It's very different. And I think if I had my druthers, I'd be out here in the garden, because I love gardening, number one. But I love that contact when a child discovers something and it's-and you have that continuous contact with them, and you watch them grow and-and develop. I have an hour with these kids. But it's still satisfying because I'm still imparting something new to them. I'm-I'm a break from the blackboard, I'm a break from the computer, I'm something real. And I've had them come up to me and beg me to come back the next day. So it's-it ha-there's a lot of satisfaction. I feel like I'm doing really good things, and I'm doing it with a lot more children than I could touch here. But my heart of hearts is in the garden with the children, where I really love to be. I miss it a lot.

DT: And can you see differences when you go from not just bringing The Green Classroom to a single school, and-and you're going from a single place to many places. But among all those places, you know, among all those schools that you visit, do you see differences in how kids are learning and being taught?

00:03:10 - 2399 CM: Incredible differences. The background that many children have where they will immediately-if I mention the word cold, they say, well, what about global warming, which is-I'm glad. I'm really glad that they know that. Excuse me. But other places, it's all new to them. They ha-they have no-that's the difference. The difference between some schools and a school population is the children do not have that long background that many of us take for granted. That you're tar-parents take you places and you learn things every day with your family. You have this rich, rich resource at your fingertips. There's many children who have no resource. None. So they come to school pretty blank, so it's very difficult. You're having to teach them baby steps all the way. So for me to start talking about the aquifer, and

00:04:09 - 2399 saving the aquif-you know, all that stuff, you've got to get more-much more basic with them because they don't have the background to lean on. That's the huge difference I see.

DT: Well, is it-is it also beyond the-the kids and their families, but is it-does-do you also see differences among the schools, the kind of teachers or the kind of equipment (?)?

00:04:32 - 2399 CM: Well, there's all-schools always have a culture, and you can almost feel it when you walk in the door. And I always say that I'm-I-if the custodian is friendly and kind and wants to help me, I can count on the teachers being the same, and the children being the same. There's a culture. People are expected to be kind to each other, and to be nice to each other and be watching out for each other. I've had custodians lock the door and not let me in on purpose. I've had custodians refuse to help me when I've had to lug all that stuff upstairs because there's no elevator. And I'm telling you, it's a very interesting thermometer, or-or test, because the-the culture of the school demands one thing or the other. And the principal is the key every time. The pri-the principal's expectations of the teachers, and of the students, and of her staff are what make that school work or not work. I've seen it

00:05:34 - 2399 way d-I've seen it here at Becker when I lost that person who was so helpful to me. I had a principal here who refused to let children come over here. She also refused to let them come after school because they needed to study for the test. She didn't believe in it. She didn't believe out-you-you could learn anything outside. She thought it was a total waste of time. So you have all different kinds of principals, but it's-that's the key.

DT: The-the sort of culture, atmosphere that they create in the school.

00:06:11 - 2399

CM: Just like any-like a business. You know, the person in charge creates the atmosphere that everyone works under. You either feel oppressed and unhappy, or you feel like you're doing something good, and that that person above you wants you to do well, and is going to support you. That was the key with the person that helped me so much, Judy Taylor. The teachers all felt that she was supporting them. She wanted them to do well, instead of coming in and raking them over the coals and telling them they were doing a terrible job, and if their test scores weren't this or that, they weren't any good. So just a different way of treating people.

DT: Well, I guess a l-a l-a lot of this is-is-goes down to how one person treats another. But I-can-can you maybe try and help us s-summarize what you've learned about environmental education, and-and teaching environmental education through hands-on, whether it's models like those you-you can take to Earth School, or-or the actual digging in the dirt in your Green-Green Classroom garden? What are-what are some of the take-home lessons that you've learned?

00:07:23 - 2399

CM: That anything that's concrete is interesting to children. If they can touch it, if they can smell it, if they can play with it, if they can feel playful. That's an-that's another thing. It's not that all that restriction of-you know, all schools in AISD have signs that say "Knees together, hands under the desk, looking forward, mouth closed." And then we wonder why children can't communicate. Somebody did a study that said that children get to talk twenty minutes a day at school. And then we wonder why they can't express themselves. It's so rigid. It's so hard on them, particularly children who don't have another life at home. So I'm-I'm all for releasing that and making them feel this is something we're going to-and they're always surprised. They say, oh, we had so much fun. You know? And there's no

00:08:25 - 2399 reason you can't have fun and learn at the same time. I guess that's really the-the core of it, is that we don't-we don't have to sit with our knees together, and our mouths closed, and our hands in our lap to learn. There are other ways to learn.

DT: And beyond, I guess, education, and maybe looking at-at environmental education in particular, is-is there something that you've learned from-from doing it, teaching it for so long?

00:08:55 - 2399 CM: Well, w-I think we were really pioneers in integrating the curriculum. As I said before, there's a lot of resistance to adding environmental education to the curriculum. We already have too much to do. We can't do one more thing. I'd love to do it, but I can't do it. I don't have time, my kids don't have time. But if you integrate it, and you teach that la-math lesson for them, they can check that off and go forward. So if it-having the teachers on board is really key. They have to feel it's valuable to them, not necessarily to their children, but to them. If they feel it's valuable to them, then they will allow their children environmental education, because it's so mixed with the curriculum that they have to teach. I n-I don't think this would ever have worked if I didn't ha-if I hadn't done that. And I went to a conference, a national conference, environmental educator, mostly gardening s-

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programs, and none of them were integrated into the curriculum. It was separate. It was something you thought of as a separate part, not part of math, not part of science, not part of anything. It was separate. So I think by marrying those two things together is-is really the key to making it-to giving me access to the children.

DT: Well, in that sense, would you consider yourself an environmental educator, or are you...

00:10:26 - 2399

CM: Oh, yes. (?) yes.

DT: ...more holistic than...

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CM: You know, that-no, that's-that's my-my goal, but I'm kind of d-m-meshing it with the other things, which is fine. That's fine.

DT: What is your attitude about where education is generally going? What about the trends that you see?

00:10:48 - 2399

CM: I have a unique view because I go to a different school every day. I see things that no one else sees. If AISD was coming to a school, you know how everybody would put on their best show. Well, a lot of times they don't care if I see the worst show. So I see really, really, really bad things. I see teachers who have no business in a classroom. They have no business being around children. I'm really, really down on the whole-I think-I think it-well, when I came in 1989, I thought it couldn't get any worse than this. This is really bad. And I wouldn't say that I've ever seen it get better. I've seen it get worse.

DT: What is it (?)...

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CM: Very, very negative about it.

DT: Is-is the problem pressure from outside, the-the TAKS [Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills] requirement, or is it...

00:11:45 - 2399

CM: That's a big part of it.

DT: The kind of people who are drawn to-to teaching?

00:11:49 - 2399 CM: Who wants to do that? Who wants to make thirty thousand dollars a year, and have parents yell at you, have-be on this line about your-got to make this test score, pressure, pressure, pressure? Who wants that? Who would go for that? It's-doesn't draw-there's some wonderful teachers, don't get me wrong. There's some wonderful people out there, but they're slugging along in the trenches. They're not getting any help to make their job easier. Need to have-a lot of things make their job a lot harder. It's really-as I said, I just have this unique view. I'm kind of like this snake coming into the school everyday, and I see things that no one else really has the opportunity to see, particularly when I go to all the different schools. I see every-every gra-gradation. But the majority of it is very sad.

DT: And how-how would you make it better? I mean I-I realize that there-in these schools it's...

00:12:49 - 2399 CM: I'd burn the schools down. I'd get them all outside. I'd get-I would-I-my idea for education is community education. Kind of like-similar to apprenticeship where children went to and learned what someone did and how they did it. I don't see any reason we couldn't do that. Where children can be exposed to many, many people in their community, many, many things that are going on, so that they could spark their interest in something. Why would you learn math if you didn't have a goal, if you didn't have a reason to learn it, or a reason to do it? Social studies, why do I care? You know, you have to have a reason; you have to have a motivation. And we forget that. We just want you to learn it. But I think that whole idea of-of more community, this-these-this idea that you have to go to UT and get an

00:13:44 - 2399 education degree. You graduate from high school at eighteen, you graduate from UT, you've never had any life experiences to speak of, and you have no real world experience to share with the children. There's-it just doesn't work.

DW: Well, speaking of worlds, one thing we hear, and we've heard this now, (inaudible) on-mostly from older people, but their greatest fear is that young people are too plugged into the imaginary world created by the video game. Now, maybe not so much with third graders, but by the fifth grade, I believe it might be possible, that they come to you at first with those ear buds plugged into their headphones, and some sort of electronic device. So for a lot of these people, they see that as the greatest threat to encouraging hands-on environmentalists. Now have you had to counter this electronic nemesis, and if so, how do you-how do you deal with it? (misc.)

00:14:44 - 2399 CM: I-I haven't had to-to deal with that because I'm in that school such a short time. I'm only there for an hour. These children are too poor to have those things, so they don't have computers, they don't have iPods, they don't have those things. And they don't allow them in schools now. They don't let the kids bring that stuff to school. But-and I th-I have a stepson who's actually totally dependent. I mean he-he's unable to function in life. He's totally crippled by it. He spends eight-sixteen-twenty-four hours a day playing games on the computer. He doesn't live his life. He has no-he can't so-he's totally unsocial. He can't speak to anyone, can't hold a job, can't do anything. He plays those games. And one-one time I-we were trying to-to cut him back, and I said, well, what if we go back, let you use the computer two hours a day? He said that's impossible. That's impossible. These

00:15:45 - 2399 games go on for six or eight hours. And pe-and they would be very mad if I got off after two hours. His world, completely his world. And that's-I'm sure it's true. I haven't-I haven't butted up against that because I have such a short time with them. But I know it's true. It's-it's the future.

DT: This sort of second world of-a simulated virtual world.

00:16:14 - 2399 CM: Yeah. A virtual world. Yeah. And my understanding is now that teenagers, that is the sole way they communicate. There's that-all that cyber-bullying. So instead of being by the locker and talking about Susie, you're going to attack Susie on the computer. That's a-makes me feel like an old fogy.

DT: Something else that we've heard from other teachers that we've talked to, and it's-it's kind of similar to what you've said, is that they found that because of liability reasons, or just shortage of fuel and bus drivers and buses, that kids don't actually get to go on field trips, and to see real things that are outside of the classroom. And you've managed to get them come across the street at least, so there aren't maybe those excuses. But do you see that as an issue as well in environmental education?

00:17:10 - 2399 CM: Oh, it's absolutely an issue. That's one of the things that another Nancy McClintock vision is that if she was going to do Earth Camp, and she was going to have these kids see the water d-waste treatment plant and come to the Green Classroom, and do all these things all over the city, that she was going to have to pay for the buses because the school district would absolutely not pay for the buses. So she takes that out of her pocket. She-and which is expensive. She pays for these buses to take these kids around because that's the only way they can get there. We've-we've trapped them in this building, a-and pretended that that's the only way you can learn.

DT: Well, I can see some-just to play the Devil's advocate here, I could see some people saying, well, m-it's sort of a mass production model. That, you know, we've got limited resources, limited time, we're trying to do education in the most cost-effective way. We're going to put them all through this same production line, and that this is a more efficient way to do things. What would you say to somebody like that?

00:18:14 - 2399 CM: It does-it doesn't work. We've proven that it doesn't work. When I see what a fifth grader writes, it's not working. They don't put a capital at the beginning of the sentence. There's not one word spelled correctly. It's inte-unintelligible. You can't even tell what they're trying to say. And they're in the fifth grade. It doesn't work.

DT: Did it ever work?

00:18:42 - 2399 CM: I don't know. I know I hated school. But I did w-I made straight A's. I did-and I can write and read. But...

DT: That it was in spite of education you received?

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CM: Well, because I had a grandmother, and because I had parents that took me places, and-and gave me-I think that education outside of school is at least equally important, if not more important than what happens during the day at school. You've got to have that richness of your life. You've got to have something going on because if that's all you have, you can't write a sentence. And that cookie cutter idea that a child from a housing project whose father tried to kill his mother last night is going to be educated the same way that a Northside Austin's child who's been to Ireland and China and grandmother buys them all the things they need, and they have all these educational tools at home. And we're going to say that those two kids are going to walk into the classroom and learn the same way. It's absurd. Of

00:19:45 - 2399 course they're not. You have to m-know your audience. You have to-to make it available to them. That's why I was so drawn to this school because it-there's-kids are so deprived of anything in their lives that's rich. I just...

DT: Well, give me an example. Say you-you-you've (?)-had the chance to work with a child at Becker Elementary, or another school, and you've really been able to interact with them and spend a number of years, or at least some-some visits with them. And then ten years later they come back. Or maybe even twenty for some of these kids that were there when you first started. Is it apparent that-that you or somebody else had this kind of enrichment for them?

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CM: I-I don't kno...

DT: Do you see differences down the line?

00:20:36 - 2399 CM: Well, I couldn't-I couldn't say that. I know that they come to me and say I always remember what we did here. You know, they-they have a real fondness for it. Whether I actually changed their-kept them from being in a gangster, I don't-I don't know. I don't know that. I don't have that data to have any idea. I hope. I hope so, but I couldn't say that I did that.

DT: Well, let me ask you another question that's sort of a long-term issue. Say you're trying to pass on a message to the next generation. I mean you do this every day in-in class. But-but what if it was sort of a-the time capsule where you didn't have a day, much less seven years. But you really wanted to distill something-what would it be? What would you try to tell them about what's important to you, and what you think should matter to the next generation, particularly about protecting this continuity between generations and protecting the earth?

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CM: To me, it comes down to planting the seed. That whole idea of putting a seed in the ground and having it turn into something. The first year I was here, we did all this-we had clowns, we had all this stuff going on. And then I surveyed the pre-K kids. And, you know, children will-at that age will often tell you the last thing that happened. Whatever it was, that was their favorite thing, because that's what they remember. Ninety percent of the pre-K children, when I asked them of all the things we did this year, what was your favorite thing, planting the seed in the ground and having it turn into something. It's powerful. I mean they don't have-they don't have that power any other way. They-they can't make anything. They can't create anything at that age. The magic to them of putting the seed in the ground and

00:22:37 - 2399 having something come up is truly magic to them. Really, really touches them in a deep place. So for me, that's-I would say planting the seed is-is the key. Touching the earth. Being near it. Understanding what it does. I don't know if that answered your question (?).

DT: Well, I-no, it-I think it does, and it reminds of a poster that you have, or a little painting that you have at the doorway. H-How...

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CM: "To plant a seed is to believe in tomorrow."

DT: What does that mean to you?

00:23:13 - 2399 CM: It means that we're all-we all-it means responsibility, that we all need to plant a seed, and we are all responsible for tomorrow. And it means that how can we believe in the future if we don't do what we need to do today. And that comes back to the whole environmental thing. We can't leave it to-to the next generation. We've already waited way too long. We need to do as much as we can, and we need to-I think everyone needs to understand that they need to be responsible themselves. And that's-that's the biggest lesson of all.

DT: Here's another question we often ask people. You-you've created a very special place here, but you've also been to a lot of places around the world, and that great wandering that you had. Is there a place that you think of as being very special and-and distinctive and important to you, you know, that-that gives you solace?

00:24:20 - 2399 CM: You mean another country?

DT: Doesn't have to be another country, it could be this little garden out here. Well, what-what-but that-that brings you back in touch with yourself and with the planet and makes it all [talking over each other]?

DW: When it all gets to be too much, where do you... 00:24:32 - 2399 CM: We ha-we are so fortunate. We have a house in Medina, Texas, which is a dead-end road at the end of a dead-end road. And it's-when we drive up and get out of the car, we set down-we sit down in a chair outside, and this huge exhalation of air, it's just total grounding. And it's physical, it's mental, it's-it's-it's that release. And it-I-to me, it's like-it's just like touching the earth. There's-if you're ever agita-over-agitated, or over-really upset about something, if you literally go outside and put your palms on the ground, it will really, really settle you down.

DT: Just literally grounding you [talking over each other].

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CM: Literally grounding yourself. And there's something about the palms of your hands that-I-I-maybe it makes you feel part of the whole, and not such a separate, worried person.

DT: And what is this particular place where this ground is-is...

00:25:47 - 2399 CM: Well, it's just-it's-we have thirty acres in Medina, and there's a beautiful hill, we have gorgeous oak trees, and it's just peaceful. There's three ten-thousand acres ranches around us, and we've got thirty acres in the middle of it. So just really totally-there's not a sound. It's completely quiet. And that's-that's my solace, is that quiet and away from noise, and away from everything else. So-(inaudible).

DT: Well, I imagine after a day in a-in the classroom, a little quiet would be very welcome.

00:26:21 - 2399 CM: Well, and living in three places is also very stressful, because we live in San Antonio, and I work here, and then we immediately run to Medina every weekend. So there's a lot of-I said my tombstone's going to say, "She moves stuff around." Just about what I do.

DT: Well, between all of that hustling around, than you for taking time with us.

00:26:45 - 2399

CM: Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure.

DT: I'm hoping we can...

[Break]

DT: We're continuing a interview with Carla Marshall. And we're on the outskirts of The Green Classroom in the garden that surrounds the building. And Carla's going to take us on a little quick tour of-of what the garden offers, what's here and-and how she uses it to teach children.

00:27:13 - 2399 CM: This is an herb garden that was built in-with the American YouthWorks students and a wonderful artist named [James] Talbot. And he designed this for us, and it's really a great-great sculpture piece. Children love to climb on it.

This is a rainwater catchment tank. We have two of them. And that-the children get to s-to understand how we catch rainwater from the roof, and why rainwater is good to catch. And we've had wonderful help on that. Once again, won-wonderful contributions and volunteers that make that all happen.

This is another concept of putting pollution-adding pollution to different spots on this watershed. This is our local watershed, the East Bouldin Creek Watershed. So we introduce pollution, and we pour water on it, and then water comes down and goes into the creeks. This one over here, even though it doesn't look great l-right now, that was built by third graders. They cut each piece out separately from a topo map, and then we glued

00:28:32 - 2399 them all together. And that was our very first watershed model that we built. And then this a plastic rendering of it.

And these are-the children wro-after they have this experience, then they wrote about it. And I just took some of their writing and put it up on these posters.

And then back here, we have our composting operation. So then the local neighbors bring leaves to us and drop them over the fence, and then we add scraps-food scraps to them, and we create mulch and compost for our garden. So that's what we use here at The Green Classroom.

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And the vegetable gardens themselves are primarily used by the children at Becker, but also by students all over the district come to Earth Camp here once a week, and they also garden, and look for bugs-learn about bugs and weeds, and they do a lot of caretaking for us. They take care of the garden and keep it going.

DW: Where are some other things we can see in this?

00:31:16 - 2399 CM: Well, right now they're growing a lot of broccoli and cauliflower, which they've harvested most of it. We'll have a lot of herbs, we have snow peas, cabbage, mustard, radishes, parsley, lots and lots of vegetables. It helps the children learn to like vegetables, because they grew them themselves. (misc.)

DT: Carla, we're next to this cistern. Can you explain what-what sort of value and lesson you see? (misc.)

DT: Carla, we have this cistern here. I was hoping that you might be able to tell us how it works and-and what you think is important about having it to teach the kids.

00:32:34 - 2399 CM: Well, we love to use rainwater on our garden because it's much better than the city water. And it just teaches children that you want to conserve the water that you have, and try to collect it instead of letting it go to waste. So it's-it's a good lesson on measuring, too. They can measure how much is in there, and how long it takes-how many drops of rain-how many inches of rain will fill up this tank. And...

DT: And how have they decorated the-the (?).

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CM: These are the scraps that they find in the bags of mulch. And for some reason they enjoy putting them up here on the-on the cistern.

DT: And it looks like they've made them into buildings and cars and bridges.

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CM: Always recycling. (misc.)

00:36:10 - 2399

CM: We're going to walk towards the fountain that the children built and designed. They went to UT and looked at the fountains there. They looked in books at fountains, and this is what they decided to build. And many, many people helped us with this, with the cost of it, and the-and the mechanisms that make it work. But the children did design it. And then we have these ti-we have these tiles along the garden that are thanking all the people who helped-have helped us over the years right behind you.

DW: Anything else? 00:38:05 - 2399 CM: I think that's about it. (misc.)

00:39:15 - 2399

CM: This is also a great model to show children how important it is to plant native plants in your yard. So what we do is we make it rain, and then we show how much of the soil is eroded by u-the turf grass, the street, construction sites, and then a native yard. And of course, in a native yard, there's a lot-a lot less of the soil is lost. So that's another dynamic way of showing soil erosion. (misc.)

00:40:32 - 2399

CM: This is a wonderful model that shows how erosion occurs. When you have a construction site, or a street, when the water hits that, it's going-a lot of the soil is going to be lost. We catch in a bucket. But when you have a native soil, native plants on your-in your yard, you're going to lose a lot less of the soil when it rains. It's going to hold in those roots and hold in those plants and protect the soil.