George Smith Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: George, up to now, we've been talking about some of the factors for air quality in Houston and Texas, but mostly, I think, about conventional pollutants, particulate matter and volatile organics and sulfur and NOx. But, as you've pointed out, Houston's quite distinctive in having this large petrochemical presence here and a real soup of unusual pollutants and I was wondering if you could talk about some of the toxic air pollution problems that you've confronted here?00:02:05 - 2276

GS: Well, we do indeed have a-have a toxic soup. The-the only thing that really saves us is that usually we have a nice Gulf breeze during the day and-so it blows it up toward Tomball. Otherwise, it'd get kind of concentrated around here. The people who live fairly close to these plants are convinced that it's real-that these plants pollute at night. I don't think that they do, in general, but what happens at night is that-it-it would-air cools down and gets trapped down close to the ground and so all the pollutants are down at ground level and they're concentrated. And you out in the morning, you really get a snoot full. It's a snoot full of hundreds of chemicals. The-the-some of the most common, though, are butadiene, thing-something we make rubber tires out of. Styrene, make plastic. Some of the things are just components of 00:03:23 - 2276gasoline and diesel fuel. There's a lot of benzene, ethyl benzene.

Some of these things are fairly strictly regulated nowadays, much, much more so than the past. But, to a certain extent, because we still haven't required real time monitoring of these things, like the cooling towers, there are places where big time chemical leaks are polluting neighborhoods. Things that-that cause brain cancer, like-like butadiene. This is-this is serious and the people in that neighborhood, near that plant, are-are being exposed at a-at a pretty high level. Anyone who's working outside during the day anywhere in the plume of one of those plant that-that-that's leaking like that, there-there's certainly going to be a risk.

And it's-it's interesting-Texas doesn't have good data on-on deaths from cancer and so we really-we really don't know what the-all the-the reasons for death are. But, probably we've-we've got some-some problems if you 00:05:01 - 2276could locate it by census tract and if we had better-better reporting of things like that. But we do have-we're starting to do more monitoring of more chemicals. But this has been a slow process. It's a slow process.

And-and we don't have strict standards. All we have is health effect screening levels that-well, yeah, that looks kind of high. Let's look for a plant and see who's producing that and maybe they can put in some more controls. There was a-a plant over in the Channelview area that made pesticides and they did it by the batch process. Well, when they'd open up the tank at the end of the batch process, oh, man, it'd just-it'd just knock your socks off. And the people who lived downwind of that did complain, but they were just poor people. They were living in trailer houses and not much was done. So it's-it's a tough fight with a short stick out there. DT: Do you think that there's much synergistic effect between all these different sources and kinds of chemicals?00:06:17 - 2276

GS: We don't know what that synergistic effect is. The Galveston-Houston Association for Smog Prevention is releasing a study next week, looking at what we have found as far as toxic levels that people are being exposed to. And we are making an attempt to sum up what those-the death rates-the expected death rates from-from these chemicals is using a-a model from EPA and the Environmental Defense. So we're working on it. So we're trying to let people know what's out there and-and what's dangerous for them. DT: Do you hear many reports of, you know, anecdotally or from official sources, about cancer hot spots around these toxic releases?00:07:14 - 2276

GS: Not really. Not really.DT: Do you think it's because it's not happening or because the reporting network and the medical establishment is not (?)00:07:36 - 2276GS: Well, for one thing, we're a pretty mobile society. We don't stay put long enough to-to get really good figures. You know, if you stayed in that plume-lived in that plume for a long time, we'd have a pretty good chance of pinning down who got sick from what. But-so as a result of our mobility and our lack of reporting, lack of real time monitoring of toxic levels where-where people live, we've got some problems that we don't even know we have. We don't even know we have. DT: Well, sort of talking some more about the limits of what we know, I've heard some people be critical of the medical establishment, particularly the Texas Medical Center, because it shares a city and general area with these petrochemical industries that are polluting this area and we're not really sure what they effects are. And they contend that there are limits on the kind of epidemiological and toxicological work being done that should be done. What's your feeling?00:08:50 - 2276

GS: The-the lung doctors are-tend to be the more-most supportive. They realize that they're seeing a lot of asthma. Over the last 20 years, it's just-the asthma rates have skyrocketed and, certainly, pollution is-is one contributing factor. It's a lot easier to-to pin down asthma triggers than it is other toxic triggers. Certainly, nothing is as toxic as cigarettes and there's no question but what cigarettes have-are-are far and away the greatest cancer causer-much greater than-than the petrochemical plants. But we choose whether we smoke or not. We don't choose whether we breathe or not. And that's-that's why I've been concerned about air quality because it's something that, you 00:09:55 - 2276know, we think we have the right to clean air. It's part of a quality of life thing, that I think it's our responsibility to-to protect and to try to do something about. And, unfortunately, the physicians, in general, have not been particularly concerned about air quality. That said, we at GHASP have received some support from a noted, local allergist and asthma doctor, so with-with his support, we ex-the GHASP group has been able to do some work. But the-in general, physicians have not been particularly concerned about air quality, toxics, anything. DT: Well, do you think it's more of an effective indifference and need to work on other items, or do you think that there's pressure from research funders, from board members of the hospitals and so on, to try and dissuade them from doing this research-and why don't we break and then try and see what's going on?[break from recording]DT: Could you go ahead and talk a little bit more about the medical research community and treatment institutions and their response to the health concerns-environmental health concerns in Houston?00:11:33 - 2276

GS: Well, in general, our experience has been that they're not responsive to pollution issues. At the School of Public Health, there were researchers sort of on both sides. One side was sort of environmental and the other side was kind of protective of industry. Stan Peer was always going off to testify on the behalf of some industry that, you know, oh, it wasn't all that bad. You know, those levels aren't bad at all.

And then, we had-speaking of things that aren't bad for you, the Chamber of Commerce had their own study of air pollution, HAPS, who is Houston Air-Air Pollution Study, or something like that. And their-their solution was that-or their-their conclusions were that ozone smog really isn't bad for you. Well, that-that-that's kind of new and different, but that was their take on it. So that's-that's been the-the Chamber of Commerce and the rest of the medical community has been just pretty-pretty hands off. Pretty hands off. Except for the-the allergists and the asthma people. DT: You mentioned briefly, smoke and tobacco smoke, in particular, that it's very toxic. And I was wondering if you could just briefly touch on some of the indoor air quality issues that we face, since many of us spend a lot of time indoors. 00:13:24 - 2276

GS: Many people are sensitive to-to formaldehyde. And formaldehyde is used in building products, in carpeting, upholstery, and tends to off gas after it's installed in a house. And so, if your house is well sealed, it's possibly not the healthiest thing for you, particularly if it's-it's all brand new. This was a particular issue with regard to trailer homes. It seemed like they had a lot more plywood, fiberboard and glues involved and those things were really toxic for a while, until they got some changes made in-in their construction. But certainly, a-a house, where there is a smoker living, is a toxic 00:14:27 - 2276environment, particularly for children. The-the-there-there's-there are carcinogens, there are particulates, it-it is really-it is really hazardous for-for kiddos. But, there again, that's something that most of us have some control over. We can not smoke. The-the other issue with revar-with regard to indoor air is mold and I'm afraid I don't really know an awful lot about mold. I have a feeling it's more of a-a lawyer thing that really-rather than a-an air pollution thing. But it's something that has certainly has gotten a lot of attention in the insurance field lately.DT: Let's return to exterior air quality, outdoor air quality. You mentioned earlier that Houston is distinctive in having a very large industrial component to its air pollution problem, but it does have a vehicular, transportation aspect as well. Can you talk a little bit about those factors and, especially how they impinge on people's lifestyles and how difficult it is to control those things?00:15:59 - 2276

GS: Well, years ago, we-as part of the Clean Air Act, we would-we mandated that cars would be cleaner. And, indeed, cars emit just a fraction of the pollution that they used to. However, we now drive 2 or 3 times further than we ever did before. We live in the Woodlands and commute to the-to NASA or to downtown or-people don't want to live in Channelview or down in the Manchester area. They want to live out in nice, clean, west part of town where the air is cleaner. And so they're driving in, 15, 20 miles, 30 miles, all the way from the Woodlands to-to wherever. And so we're driving more. Our trips are not all work trips and so they're not necessarily conducive to the vanpool program or carpool program. We've gotten all our ego tied up in our car, and so we don't want to take the bus or-or the company van. You know, we want the-the power of our Boxster or our SUV or whatever. And we're driving bigger and bigger vehicles, which 00:17:34 - 2276pollute more because they're not subject to the-to the same restrictions. Some of the companies have cleaner big vehicles than others, but some have very weak controls, such as the new Hummers and huge tank-like things. About 20 to 25 percent of our pollution in Houston comes from transportation, cars, trucks and busses.

We've also found that the diesel trucks are a bigger source of problem than we ever realized before. Since they didn't have all of the petrochemical vapors coming out that our vehic-that our cars had, we thought they were cleaner. We thought diesel was a little cleaner. But unfortunately, it's got a lot of particulates and it's got a lot of NOx exhaust. Nitrogen oxide exhaust, which forms smog. The particulates lodge in your lungs and are a cancer causer.

We also get a lot of this from ships, trains, airplanes. Anytime you burn fuel, you're-you're going get some particulates and some NOx-exhaust and this reacts with the-the 00:19:11 - 2276chemicals in the air that leak from our dry cleaners and our automobiles or paint shops. The-there are some gases that come off of trees. Those gasses are not harmful, but if you mix them with the nitrogen oxide exhaust, then you can form-form some smog from that. So we have a-a rather complex process. This is part of what makes fighting air pollution kind of interesting is that we're learning more. We're finding out that there are rather complex chemical reactions involved that we're learning more about all the time. Learning how the industry hasn't produced the-all the reports that they should. And it's-it's all going on around us, everyday. Everyday we get a new packet of clean air, and our four million cars, trucks and busses just do wonderful things to it.DT: Well, speaking of cars and trucks, you mentioned just a moment ago about diesel and the interesting dilemma for me, and I imagine for many other people. On the one hand, you can get a very high mileage, high efficiency, low carbon dioxide emitting diesel car, station wagon, whatever. But on the other hand, it has these particulate and NOx problems. How do you balance, you know, the climate change risks with the health risks?00:20:56 - 2276

GS: Well, you really can't, in my opinion. You're-there-you've got a short-term problem and a long-term problem. The short term is-is what you're doing to your population right now. The long term is what we're doing to the climate long term. However, the long-term solution is cleaner diesel, cleaner diesel fuel, and then, cleaner engines. This is coming. Not coming real fast, but we can put catalytic converters on diesel engines if we use really clean, low sulphur diesel fuel. And that'll be coming, oh, I think about 2006, something like that, we'll-we'll have that in Texas. And so, we can put particulate traps to get rid of the particulates, to get rid of the soot and we can get rid of-of measure-of the nitrogen oxide with catalytic converters as well as cleaning 00:22:05 - 2276burning engines. So we can have it all, more or less, if we're careful. Of course, the new hybrid electric cars are much more efficient. They're as efficient-probably more efficient, even, than-than a diesel. Less emissions of both carbon dioxide as well as-as well as particulates and I hope that my next car will be a-a hybrid. DT: You've done a lot of this work on behalf of air quality on your own, as an individual. But it's often on the letterhead and with the help of organizations and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the Sierra Club and the group, GHASP, Galveston-Houston Association for Smog Prevention?00:23:03 - 2276

GS: Well, of course, the Sierra Club is a national conservation organization and we needed a-a presence on air quality issues and I've tried to be that for Texas since 1980. The Galveston-Houston Association for Smog Prevention was formed in 1988. A-an organizer from the National Audubon Society came down to Houston to try to pull together the diverse groups that were somewhat concerned about air quality and try to get them all singing from the same page. And so it started off as an organization of organizations, linking up the Lung Association, Health Committee, which I was on, Sierra Club, Citizen's Environmental Coalition, Nature Con-Outdoor Nature Club. And 00:24:11 - 2276so, it was an organization of organizations at first. In early 90's, we organized as a-as a nonprofit corporation, so we are now a 501c3, nonprofit organization. We try to maintain lengths with-with other groups but, basically, we are an education group. We've also challenged some permits. We do a small amount of lobbying, very small, limited due to our 501c3 status. We talked to the agency about clean air and stronger regulation, trying to provide some backbone for the organization-for the-for the agen-state agency. DT: I had one more air quality question. Most of the things we've talked about so far are air pollution problems that are a by-product of process to produce things or to create transportation. But there are some cases where there's air pollution that's intentional. I mean, incinerators come to mind. And I was wondering if you have anything to say about medical waster incinerators or the Holmes Road incinerator or about Midlothian and the cement kilns?00:25:50 - 2276

GS: Well, of course, David Marrack has been the point man on medical incinerators. He's-he's really been the big daddy. He has really studied that issue. He knows how hot that stuff needs to be for how long to get rid of all of that toxic plastic and stuff. The-the Holmes Road incinerator was so famous that a picture of it was on the EPA walls in-in Washington. It was a-a local municipal incin-a waste incinerator and it was-it was pretty awful. I don't know if it's still there. I know it was there a few years ago. I took the bus out that way and I went by this-oh, my gosh, there's our old incinerator. The-the hazardous waste incinerator that's out in the ship channel area, I'm not too concerned about because it is so tightly regulated. It is so well controlled that I 00:27:02 - 2276think it's probably pretty clean. Luckily, we don't have cement kilns here, which are part of a loophole that has been exploited by the cement kiln people. They're-they're paid to-to burn toxic waste. So instead of having to pay to get rid of toxic waste, these people make money off of it. They-they burn toxic waste and-and make a-a ton of money. Unfortunately, they do not have adequate controls on their particulate or-or the-the gasses that come off and that's-it's really-it's a crime and an exploitation of-of a loophole. It's really a shame.DT: Do they consider it resource recovery?00:27:56 - 2276GS: I'm sure they do. (Laughs)DT: I don't know if you have any other air quality or air pollution issues you'd like to discuss?00:28:08 - 2276GS: I think we've just about done it.DT: Okay.00:28:11 - 2276GS: You've got about everything I know.DT: Well, you're being modest. Let's move on to something else that Houston is well known for besides air pollution. Houston is often considered the capital of flooding and I guess this became particularly clear after two hurricanes came through, or they may have been tropical storms. Was it Alvin and Allison?GS: That's correct.DT: Tell us about the issue in general and some of your personal experiences with flooding.00:28:45 - 2276

GS: Well, we went through one hurricane-that was Hurricane Alicia-huddled in our hallway, hoping that'd be the strongest place to-to be, in case of-one of our pine trees fell on the house. That was many years ago.

But we also got flooded out by Tropical Storm Allison and that's-that's the most awf-awful experience in-in my life, to get out of bed in the middle of the night and step into water. Because there's not a thing you can do about it, the water's coming up and you can't do anything about it. You go outside and you figure out there's too much current. It's too dangerous to try to leave at 3 o'clock in the morning. It's too dark. So we turned off the electricity and sat there with water up to our knees the rest of the night, thinking that we'd be rescued. But we weren't. But, luckily, the water didn't continue to rise. But that was the most depressing thing that-that's ever happened to me because you're so powerless. You know, 00:30:05 - 2276everything you have is getting ruined and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. And we-you know, it's-it's partly a climatic thing that-you know, it was a tremendous rain. Our watershed had 26 inches. Other watersheds had in the 30's.

But it's partly a result of-of growing the way Houston has grown, in that the developers want to develop. The road builders want to build roads. And development has paved over the land that used to absorb water. We've built houses too close to bayous. Our bayou had been concreted, but it was not calculated that there would be so much upstream development. So it got a lot of water a whole lot faster than it was ever engineered to do. And so-so, we got flooded.

But, you know, things like this change the-the attitudes of-of people and-and agencies. The-the flood down in Alvin 00:31:34 - 2276several years ago-there was-they had a rainfall down there that, I-I believe, was 40 inches. And it got the attention of the Corps of Engineers. They went out to Addicks Barker and put in some spillways, some auxiliary cement spillways so that if this ever happened in the Addicks/Barker wat-watershed, that it wouldn't breach the dam. They had to-to make some recalculations about well, what's a big flood? What's a major rain? And this really got their attention.

And so Allison is doing the same thing. Folks in the medical center are rebuilding and doing things differently. They're not putting the animal research underground anymore. They're using stronger floodwalls and flood doors and we're realizing that, indeed, floods are possible. That we-we can't engineer around every-everything.

And I think we're not going to be building slabs on the 00:32:57 - 2276ground quite as much as we used to. When our house was built back in the 50's, we thought we could control flooding and we could just build a house on a slab and, you know, six inches off the ground and not worry about it. Well, maybe there's a reason that, in the Heights, everything's on cement blocks. Well, it keeps you out of the floodwater.DT: Well, do you think that the responses in Houston are mostly going to be ways to protect against flooding or efforts to mitigate and reduce flooding?00:33:40 - 2276

GS: I don't know. I can't see any-any real movement yet on reducing flooding. The-the powers that be are so beholden to the developers that they don't want to enforce all of the mitigation ponds, the detention ponds. They don't want to enforce all of the offset fees for when somebody builds something new that's fairly small, they should still pay a flood-reducing fee that the county and the city go out and they build more retention ponds. It re-just remains to be seen if-if the powers that be are going to have the guts to-to stand up to the developers. I-I can't really see it happening just yet. The-when-when candidates answer questions regarding this, they-they mealy-mouth around. Some of them do anyway. Because they're beholden to the-to the developers. And the developers-they'll always control Houston.DT: Looking at the experience you've had with air quality and with flooding, what do you think are the most significant problems that will be coming in the future for Houston and for Texas?00:35:21 - 2276

GS: Well, I think that in the next 10 years, air pollution will be reduced. I think the issue is slowly improving, as long as the environmental community can keep agitating for better enforcement. I think that transportation and congestion is here to stay because it is a big vibrant city. It's still growing. People have to get around and it remains to be seen if we're going to be able to build enough rail lines fast enough to keep congestion down. And people like the independence of their car. They don't like the-the nastiness of congestion, but they still are reluctant to give up their-their individual autos. And we cannot possibly build enough cement highways to-to keep us all rolling at the-with the 00:36:50 - 2276kind of increase in-in passenger miles per person that-that we've been doing over the last few years. So, I'm afraid congestion is-is going to be a fact of life. Of course, we still lack zoning in Houston. That's-that's considered a dirty word by the developers and that-that, too, is a-it's a quality of life issue. We like the vibrancy, but we're reluctant to bite the bullet and say that we ought to have regulation and control. And so, the vibrancy is-is a two-edge sword. We-I-I'm hoping that enough people are concerned about quality of life that they will, perhaps, come to some sort of regulation. You know, presently, all we have is deed restrictions and-and that's it. And we have no real controls over what-what kind of businesses go where.DT: Well, for those conservation-minded people who try to work on these problems, what sort of advice would you give them?00:38:18 - 2276

GS: Well, join a group. Try to be an activist. I think it's worthwhile, being an individual working on-working on issues that-that make a difference to-to the general population. It's not just all about getting rich and driving a car that's bigger and faster than everybody else's. I think there's-think there's more to life and so I think we need to gear up our-our participation and-and work for more parks, more bike routes, more control of our neighborhoods and-and do things that are sensible. You know, like our-our civic club. We had deed restrictions that we enforced, but we tried not be too 00:39:27 - 2276hard-assed about it. Other civic clubs, you know, they're supposedly a do-good organization, but they-you know, they got all-all tight about yards or colors of paint or-you know, that's-that's silly stuff. You know, do things that-in a-in a smart way. And so, I'm-I'm going to hope that people like David Crosley with Smart Growth are-are more successful. Folks like at HARC [Houston Advanced Research Center] and David Hitchcock, who's working out there for-for smarter transportation. We need to do things-need to do things smarter.DT: Being smart, of course, has helped you in a lot of ways to care for the environment, but I imagine that a lot of it comes from your heart and not just your brain. And I was wondering if there's a place that you like to go that is restorative and, you know, brings that sort of joy to you, or solace or whatever, that helps you understand why you need to work your brain so hard to work on these environmental problems?00:40:50 - 2276

GS: Well, I suppose there's the-the everyday and then there's the special. The-the everyday is to get out on my bicycle and run my errands on my bicycle because that's restorative for me. Get out and listen to the birds and look at the gardens, look at the trees, look at the sky and hopefully, breathe clean air. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. That's even enhanced if I get to ride out in the country and, you know, look at the cows and look at the wildflowers and just click the miles off with the-with the bicycle. Of course, the special places in Texas, I-I guess the most special is-has got to be Big Bend and I haven't been there in a while and we're going to go back next spring. And I'm looking forward to being up in the basin and that's-that's just the pinnacle for a-for a Texan, I think. DT: Would you like to add anything?GS: Nah.DT: Thank you very much.(misc.)[End of Reel 2276][End of Interview with George Smith]