Lucie Todd Interview, Part 2 of 2

DW: Let's pick up a little bit with the story that we were discussing about times here in Texas during the Great Depression. And how the way people lived then might have been indicative of both state of the environment that was surrounding them. I know you didn't have the Dust Bowl down here per se but it was bad all over. And what kind of consciousness comes out of having to make do, I mean, it was sort of-sort of like pioneer times, wasn't it?

00:00:28 - 2409 LT: Yes, I-I think we're-we're awfully spoiled today. In fact, I think my period of being on this earth is probably the golden age. I think it was-I think I'm very lucky. But my parents and grandparents were very much influenced by the Great Depression and two World Wars, all of which involved sacrifice and rationing. And I remember saving a Kleenex, I loved Kleenex and we would be very careful about not using too much Kleenex. We would take the foil off of gum wrappers and wad it up into little balls to-for the war effort. We ra-sugar was rationed, rubber, gas, of course, and I think that had a big impact on people that they encouraged thrift and being-and not wasting things and a sense of patriotism. It was a very difficult time

00:01:38 - 2409 and I, you know, I didn't personally live through it really that much, although I was a Depression baby. But the people around me did and they were very cautious about any kind of waste or-and they were just thrifty and careful. And the world today is just, you know, throw it away, buy a new one. And things were so much better made then, you know, from toasters to refrigerators to-I understand that people that collect old refrigerators because they were some sort of collectors' item (laughs). And the thing is the-the appliances today are-are-don't have nearly the metal in them and aren't nearly as put together, can't be fixed, throw it away. So I-I think it was an influence on my early life living with people who were thrifty.

DW: Not only thrifty but was it your grandfather you mentioned or your father who had a run in with the Ku Klux Klan?

00:02:49 - 2409 LT: My grandfather slept with a pistol under his pillow because he stood up to them. And, you know, he-he wasn't afraid of them and they were very strong then.

DW: Well, take (?) because I'm from the east coast in New York and this wasn't really an issue for us back then. Put us here in Texas and what decade would this be? I mean we-are we talking about people who still believed in the Reconstructionist period and hasn't changed their ways yet?

00:03:17 - 2409 LT: You know it was for-before my time so I don't actually know what-I would say in the twenties. My grandfather also did another interesting thing. He-he-they-everybody lived downtown, in downtown Houston, and Main Street was just a dirt road out and Rice University had just started and Mr. Herman owned all this land that's Herman Park which is now-now also the medical center. And my grandfather bought this piece of property out there on this dirt road (laughs) and laid out-and it was a s-really a swamp and no tr-trees to speak of and he laid out these lots and sold the lots to his friends, planted trees all through this place and up and down Main Street and they're here today. And then Rice grew and the medical center grew and

00:04:20 - 2409

the-the art museum was part of what he worked on. And so he-he was improving the land, shall we say, back then.

DW: And these issues of race, again, that occurred because I know social justice and environmental justice, maybe one comes out of the other sort of a shared thing.

00:04:47 - 2409 LT: Right, but I think it-he built his house in 1919 and I think the Klan was right after that. I-but I don't know for sure.

DW: Now it comes to Depression in the 1930's and then you mentioned World War II. One of the outgrowths of World War II was, of course, the discovery of DDT as a control. Now you just mentioned that there was a lot of swamps. Did they begin to use DDT, do you recall, here in the Houston area?

00:05:14 - 2409

LT: Here? I don't know, I don't know. But that book of Rachel Carson was just electrifying to all of us. My aunt got on her podium and started giving speeches about pesticides (laughs) very scary. People didn't-didn't really think about it.

DW: Another question about this and again, I'm going back to-because the way Terry Hershey told the story, it sounded like there was some pretty wild times back then trying to get in to deal with backroom politics of Houston and knowing people on city councils and things like that. And that was what my question was, you know, here come a-a group of women empowered to do this and I think nothing says old boy network more than the skyline of downtown Houston. So what was it like to try to push your way into this old boy network?

00:06:08 - 2409

LT: Well, I was pretty shy back then. Terry was the one leading the way and I was just an accomplice in the backroom.

DW: You don't recall any particularly...

00:06:22 - 2409

LT: No, she was the one that-that got George Bush who was then a rep-rep to stop the concrete in Buffalo Bayou and, you know, they concreted all the rest of the bayous and they're really ugly. But-and it doesn't help flooding that much because it just throws it downstream.

DW: Well, you've seen a lot of obviously natural disasters, floodings. Houston has had its share of hurricanes, floods. Maybe you can talk a little about-I mean you were pretty much grown up at the time of the drought of 1956.

00:077:20 - 2409

LT: '55, '54?

DT: I think it was '51 through '58.

00:07:08 - 2409 LT: Something like that, yeah.

DW: What was it-what was it like to watch the landscape disappear around-I mean how did you deal with this-this drought?

00:07:16 - 2409 LT: I was not much involved. I was off at school or, you know, I had very little to do with the ranch until my father died. So I wasn't around here that much to notice what was going on.

DW: And what things would you be doing if the climate were to change more drastically as it may in the next few years? What kind of plans are you putting in place now? Are you...

00:07:47 - 2409

LT: No, just hope (laughs).

DW: Well there's always hope.

00:07:51 - 2409 LT: Hope springs eternal. I don't-you know it's an interesting thing here - it's seventy miles west of Houston. It often tends to be ten degrees cooler here than in Houston and I'm assuming it's because of all the concrete in Houston and the pavement and the buildings and all that. And we don't get as much rain as Houston either. And it's the pollution though sometimes comes out here. You can just see this line on the horizon from the-the wind comes from the east, it's bad because it blows over the refineries through Houston and even as far as here. It smells bad, too.

DW: So given your choice, you'd rather spend time in the-in the country than the-you don't...

00:08:47 - 2409 LT: I would and I don't have to dress up and I have some nice friends and go to the health club and what else? And-and primarily the dogs are much happier so...

(misc.)

DT: I guess the only thing that I have to ask you is-is you have some granddaughters who are fun to pet like the-the dogs. And I-and I'd be curious what your message to them would be about all these experiences you-talking about how you feel this great connection not only to your grandfather and to your parents and to the land but also to, you know, what comes afterwards whether it's the ranch in Columbus or your grandchildren? What-what sort of message would you want to give to them about why you've done what you've done and why they should care equally?

00:09:56 - 2409

LT: Well I desperately hope that they do care. Their lives are-are so consumed with school work and sports and things that they don't get here as often as I would hope. But I-we have worked very hard, three generations of us now, on this place and I desperately hope that they will want to continue and have an appreciation of how lucky we are that we have a piece of land as Billy Bob says, land there's no more of it, which is true. I mean, people are coming out and buying little-little pieces and parcels and building little houses and-but something on this scale is rather unusual around this area and we're, you know, Columbus is probably the next to-to be built up like Katy and Brookshire, Sealy. Columbus is the next stop and we're right in the intersection-road to Austin, San Antonio and Houston so we're

00:11:08 - 2409 boxed in in this small area on a fairly big piece of land. And I think it's very important to not let it get sold and ticky tacky, you know, what are those trailer things and-and keep it, you know, continue the work of generations before.

I-I have a great sense of heritage and I don't think I just popped onto this planet. I look back at, you know, both sides of my family and my father's family were here very early on. One of his relatives was-were the first white couple to be married in Coryell County, he used to tell me, I mean they were just Indians there. And then my mother's-well, when my grandfather came down in 1898, right-right before

00:12:10 - 2409 Spindletop, and so it goes back, you know, pretty far on-on both sides. And I think Texas is a very special place besides having everything that bites (laughs) and is poisonous. I just-I feel a great kinship with Texas and whenever I go all these countries, I'm proud to say I'm a Texan and people are proud to hear it. It's a very special place.

DT: Well I-I think you made a good explanation of why this place and this state mean a great deal to you and the legacy of your-your family (inaudible).

00:12:56 - 2409 LT: You know they both came-both sides came from nothing and did well and that counts for a lot, I think. That they had the perseverance and the ambition to-to be good people and-and, you know, and conquer the world so to speak in the nicest sort of way. I mean they-there's a lot of just nice, good-valued people that were kind to others and generous in their-their outlook and I'm quite proud of that so...

DT: And-and just I guess more broadly, is there something you could-you could say to sort of sum up not just what's been going on in Texas and with your-our family. But in a larger sense about caring for the environment, caring for nature, and caring basically for the future. Why is this important to you and why should it matter to those who come after you?

00:14:11 - 2409

LT: I'm going to digress a bit. The world and-and America is always sort of a linear thing and, you know, everybody thinks in straight lines-it's going to get better and better and better and better and I'm going to make a higher and higher salary or I'm going to have more and more stuff. But I'm thinking more like the Chinese, I believe, think in cycles. The ranch people for sure think in cycles. It's the bottom of the cow market, it's the middle of the cow market, it's the down-you know, it's-everything is a circle and the-the year is a circle and I think that things aren't going to get better and better and better and better (laughs) necessar-automatically because there will be ups and downs and all. The Chinese symbol for crisis is danger overlaid by opportunity and I think that is a pretty valid thought.

DT: Well I hope that we have more opportunity than danger.

00:15:25 - 2409 LT: Well, I-I get very depressed about the world my grandchildren will live in because there are more and more people, there's less and less nice people, more and more problems. You know, what's been going on in Washington now, this stupid war, and it's just-it just drains the spirit to think that any intelligent person could get us involved in that. But I guess I'm not supposed to say anything nasty so I won't.

DW: But you seem to have seen it come before like you say there's a cycle I mean...

00:16:03 - 2409

LT: Yes. DW: There was a morning in 1962, when as far as we know between Kennedy and Khrushchev, they could have gotten hot tempers and ended everything as we know it now. Somehow we made it through that. And then there were two World Wars before that that you mentioned and somehow we managed to do that without obliterating everything so there must be some recessive gene for survival that keeps them going.

00:16:27 - 2409

LT: (Laughs) Perhaps. Well, it's going to take a lot of hard work and common sense to avoid these issues. And I-I think it's-it's-the world has just become more complicated all the time. And, you know, it's just-my parents' generation, they danced and they partied and they had a good time and they were very involved in civic affairs but they had a light heartedness about them. And now everybody's so serious and-you see what I mean?

DT: I think I do. So maybe the lesson is have common sense.

00:17:13 - 2409 LT: Laugh a lot.

DT: Be lighthearted. Watch out for the dangers and take advantage of the opportunities.

00:17:19 - 2409

LT: Yes, yes that's it.

DW: And the things that bite and sting.

00:17:23 - 2409

LT: And-and gig-giggle a lot. Stay around people who make you happy.

DT: And pet your dog.

00:17:28 - 2409

LT: And pet your dog.

DT: Alright. Let's leave on that. Thank you so much.

DW: Alright.