Nancy Umphres Interview, Part 2 of 2

DT: We were talking earlier about this link between people and animals. And in, you know, some levels it seems like there's a kind of an odd situation of people living with wild animals. You know, you've got civilized people live in houses, that have jobs, and you've got these wildlife that have a very different experience of the world, you know, of being in wild habitat. So I was just hoping you could talk more about this connection that you feel, and how you found that link, and how you explore it. I mean this communication and telepathy you were talking about before, maybe as an example.

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NU: Yeah. I-well, I think we're getting furth-the further we get from nature, the further we get from understanding nature, the closer we're going to get to our extinction, which is just common sense because we're-you know, we're destroying our air, we're destroying our water. And you're seeing that at such a rapid pace here on the border, because we're getting everything with uncontrolled-from Mexico. Well, U.S. companies in Mexico. And you see this affecting the wildlife. Or you see the-the encroachment, like you say, of people moving out to these isolated areas, but they can't

00:02:38 - 2370 understand why there's a coyote, and of course they want to kill it, in the backyard. They're threatened. It's because they don't understand. If you're educated to-a little bit to what-how important the wildlife is, how important a balanced structure is. You know, you just see these people that come in, or why do they move to areas, to the areas where these animals have lived for-well, like the fishermen on Falcon Lake.

There was a big stink about, oh, the pe-the cormorants and pelicans are eating all the fish. Well, the cormorants and pelicans have been here for millions of years. Suddenly they're thinking they're eating all their fish. Well, you get right down to it, the cormorants have

00:03:18 - 2370 rookeries, which their dung help support the fish population, which increases the breeding of fish. And what they usually eat are the trash fish.

But you get the fisherman fighting against-when what they should be fighting against is this uncontrolled netting that we have from Mexico, which they are. It's a-the game wardens are-are-I know they're short-staffed, you know, but they are working now the ri-the lake and the rivers, because we have the commercial fishermen from Mexico with their gill nets, which is

00:03:51 - 2370 devastating. I mean it gets birds, it gets everything. And these-they don't pick them up. Now it's wrecking the-the fishermen's boats, so now people are really-you know, the engines are getting caught up in all these nets. There was just a article in the paper about it-yesterday's paper. People complaining. But it's just that whole-you know, always trying to blame the natural world, when it isn't-that's not the problem. It's what we're doing.

DT: Do you find that it's-it's more difficult to make this link between people and animals if people are from an urban background and-rather than a rural? I mean it being maybe a developer (?)...

00:04:35 - 2370 NU: Yeah. The...

DT: Instead of a rancher? Is that...

00:04:38 - 2370 NU: In this area you see a lot of the clear-cutting. Just-you come into an area-I mean even in our own neighborhood. We had a winter Texan come, bought the land down the way from us. It was Arbor Day, and he-he cleared every tree right on-and it wasn't even on his land, it was on federal land. Bulldozed down every tree. You know, and this-this was a beautiful little spot. My mother sat and cried the whole day. And-and he said he had permission from the Boundary Commission. But this sort of attitude. Why? Why would you do that? All it did was cause more allergies for everyone with the

00:05:17 - 2370 dust. You know, the-it caused more erosion into the lake. But they do this constantly, this type of mentality of just cut everything down. It's not just here. I mean this guy was from the Midwest. Our local church cleared a lot the other day. Left one little tree. Just cleared everything. There's no point in that. We need shade, we need trees. I mean what do-what do trees produce? Oxygen. It's just common sense, and I just don't understand that-that mentality. The bulldozing of everything. You did s-mention some of the am-I am getting a lot more animals brought in by bulldozing. You know,

00:05:58 - 2370 where they bulldoze areas where they get their-their little habitats. It's just a blatant disregard for anything natural. And of course, it's just money. It's-nobody thinks about the future.

DT: You talked a little bit about the-what people's relationship is with animals, and, you know, difference maybe between some of the city dwellers that moved in, and the developers that might be clearing land. How about the other side of the equation? You've got in some cases wild animals, and in other cases you've got domestic pets. Do you find that there's-that people have a different connection with dogs and cats, and you know, the sort of-animals they've been with, or-or livestock perhaps, that's distinct from how they connect with wild animals?

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NU: We have a lot of problem with cruelty in this area to domestic also. I mean it's a big problem. Not taking care of their, you know, their animals. Our group did a big vacuna, where we did rabies vaccinations. We'd paid for it and did free rabies vaccinations. Dr. Sam Bottenfield did because they were blaming the wildlife on the rabies problem in this area. Well, it wasn't-you have to have the buffer. You've got to inoculate your pets, which nobody was doing, so that the-the rabies doesn't spread. And at that time they would go out and kill coyotes. They had aerial shooting, Animal

00:07:36 - 2370 Damage Control, they put out poisons, they put out strangulation nets, traps, when most countries were using-dropped, aerial inoculation for rabies, where they eat it. It's a preventative. It's a little pellet that smells good. It's u-used everywhere else. But the good ol' boy mentality in this area, and all over the United States, the United States wasn't using it. Europe had used it for years very successfully. That's where rehabilitators got together all over the country and fought it, and now they're using it. We hardly have any rabies now. But we try to educate the people. You have to have the

00:08:18 - 2370 buffer.

You have to take care of your pets. We get in a lot of domestic cats and dogs that are dumped, neglected, that we have to place-try to place. So I'm seeing it in not just wildlife, but in domestic. It's a real problem here. The animal cruelty is really a problem. Horses, neglected cows. And there's really no Humane Society in this area to-to cover it. If you call them, they're n-there isn't one in this area to help you. And then the sheriff's department won't-I mean there are laws against this, but it's hard to get them to do anything about it. So I mean you're not even going to take care of your

00:09:05 - 2370 domestic, how are you going to understand the wildlife, you know, and be sympathetic to their needs? It's just education. I mean it just really needs-like the Humane Society in these areas.

DT: There's been a lot of discussion over the years, and for hundreds of years, about what the difference is or maybe the similarities between people and the rest of the animal kingdom. And, you know, if I remember this right-some people said, well, humans have got the ability to communicate, or they have the ability to think abstractly, or plan, and that that makes for a big difference. And then other people I think have said, well we all share, you know, things like the ability to suffer pain, and very fundamental connections. How do you sort out that difference or similarity of between people and wildlife?

00:10:03 - 2370 NU: When you work with wildlife-yeah. When you work with-with animals, when you work with wildlife, it's-the-the pain, the-like you said, the abstra-I've got a perfect example. I've got two examples. One was Luna, bobcat, brought to us imprint-a Fish and Wildlife officer brought her to us. Raised her. She was imprinted. He said, I'm sorry, Nancy. I hate to bring you a permanent. She's been a foster mother for years. She-we still-she's still with us. She-we raised her, and she was, you know, very tuned to us. We got a-a dog that was dumped in. Little dog that somebody had

00:10:44 - 2370 dumped right out in the road. And we'd kept her in a cage because, you know, it was right during rabies epidemic. We wanted to keep her in until we could her inoculated, and this sort of thing. Well, the p-she screamed all night. She kept screaming and screaming. She was in the center, and Luna was in the center then. She was young. And she had a little chick that she'd been raised with that peeped. She had to have it with her all the time. She went in and got her chick and took it over to the cage where the puppy was, and pushed it in, and then went back to bed. I mean she was-what thought is that?

00:11:18 - 2370 What kind of thought is that that took her? She realized that comforted her as a kitten. She'd given it to the puppy to try and comfort the puppy. I mean that type of thing, you just think, oh my God, you know. You see that all the time, and people don't-I guess because they're not around it, they don't see it, they don't understand it. And it makes it harder when you see things like that.

I had it with a tortoise, a Texas tortoise. My mother raised and rehabilitated a lot of Texas tortoises over the years. She'd-when the she-they come in with a shell broken, she'd, you know, take care of them, epoxy them, and then release them. Well, I'd released a lot of them out near Chihuahua, which our

00:11:55 - 2370 site is. One day I was going out to feed some hawks out there. And I opened the gate, and this tortoise came up to me. It was as if he was heading, I mean just purposely heading straight towards me. So I stood there and I watched. Came up to my foot and stopped. And he had a sticker sticking in his head, a big mesquite thorn. So I pulled it out-I picked him up and pulled it out. It had to be one I'd released there. Put him down, and he left. He just walked right off. I mean it just-amazing things like this that I don't think people see. Maybe they don't want to see. But unless you've worked with

00:12:30 - 2370 animals, you don't see it. I know people have with their domestic animals, but these are wild animals. This is something completely different.

DT: And reptiles and mammals and...

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NU: Reptiles.

DT: ...small and large. 00:12:42 - 2370 NU: Yeah. I mean I'd never thought of it happening with a reptile. But I mean he obviously knew he could come for help, and headed back out. I've had a hawk bring in another hawk-hawk that was injured. One that I'd raised. Legless. I don't know if you read the article about him, but he had a bad leg. He was a mistake release. He was a "oops." He got out when we were trying to decide what to do about his leg. It had set wrong. He lived around here for ten years. And he brought in another hawk that was old, an elderly hawk, because he knew he-we could feed them. You know, I would

00:13:18 - 2370 supplement feed him. And he brought his buddy back to be fed here because he knew he would have food. And it was just obviously what it-what he was doing, you know. Found the hawk a few weeks later dead, because he-he was just an old, sickly hawk. But, you know, he'd brought him over. And the understanding. Especially Harris Hawks. Harris Hawks are very unique to their-to this area, and they-they are more like a-a pack. They hunt in a pack, they're very family-oriented. They-the young care for the new-you know, the next batch. They stay together as a family unit. They hunt

00:13:55 - 2370 as a family unit. And I think if-if more people knew about these things, or understood, and could see what-that's why I write. That's why I try to write these stories, to let people, you know, see what the feeling, the-you know, that everything's related, and...

DT: Could you give us some examples, a few more maybe, of-of this connection, the relatedness that you mentioned you've written about?

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NU: Oh, I think the Harris Hawks, probably the most.

Coyotes, I've raised coyotes. That was-they're a little harder on each other. Then it's definitely survival with them because when they have-in a coyote, this is another thing why you don't destroy and go out and hunt or poison coyotes. When they're together in a-a group, a family unit, only the alpha female breeds, so they keep their population down. Well, you go out putting bait, poisons-of course the alpha female is going to eat that poison, and she's going to be killed. She's going to die. So the-the other are left, all breeding, indiscriminate

00:15:07 - 2370 breeding. There's-you're-you're killing that, you know, control. I raised, yeah, a bunch of-also, it was bulldozed coyote pups. One had been injured when he came-when he came in. He had a rectal injury. And the others, there was the survival. You know, they're-finally, when we released him, they ran him off. He couldn't make it. We had to bring him back and finally put him to sleep. But, you know, they had to get the weak one out. That-it shows you in the hierarchy. So when you go into an area and

00:15:40 - 2370 you disrupt the coyote pack, you just-messing everything up. These are, you know-this is what we finally got across to Animal Damage Control, I hope, you know. And in this area.

DT: Maybe you can tell that story of how you got Animal Damage Control to back off.

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NU: That wasn't just-that was all rehabilitators. And I think it was writing articles to make them be-and-and actually taking their written literature and looking through it, and finding the most ridiculous things you'd ever imagine that they'd say. They had a-you know, they'd have ducks that were destructive, that killed this or that. I mean just ridiculous. I have the book somewhere. But you could look through it. I mean, irresponsible, made up, falsehoods about animals, and the way they were, you know, blaming them for things that they had nothing to do with. Seed eating birds, you know,

00:16:41 - 2370 had destroyed the so-and-so of-you know, it just-it just-I wish I had the facts. When I read the book-that-they have-it's all in print. But the thing is, rehabilitators got hold of it and made them accountable. So they had to back off. Of course they've changed their name now, too, but they used to go into areas and just poison and trap and shoot and kill everything. Insane.

DT: And you've been successful in-in getting them to close down their operations in Zapata County?

00:17:09 - 2370 NU: Well, that was one-they had a man that was paid ten thousand dollars a year to go out and poison, trap, and kill coyotes, basically. A friend of mine and I went up to the-to the group in town to a commissioner's court meeting and showed that it was a waste of money, and it was detrimental because all it did was kill off the alpha female. So they did finally get rid of that position. But they kept thinking I wanted the ten thousand dollars. It was-that was the hardest thing we had to get across was I don't

00:17:43 - 2370 want the money, I just want you to stop doing this ridiculous, useless, detrimental thing that you're doing. Because they'd put poison out, they're killing hawks and owls also. It's not just coyotes. And they finally-we got the point across that I didn't want the money, I just didn't want them to be hurting the environment. It-and it was very hard to get across. Everyone thinks that the dollar-they can't think somebody would go off and-and spend that much time just to pro-protect a species.

DT: It sounds as if a good deal of your time is spent caring for animals, but another good portion of your time has been spent trying to educate people about the needs of wildlife and the importance of taking care of them. And I-I was hoping that you could tell about your experience. I think it was from '86 to '91, of trying to educate kids about environmental matters, and using art to do that, the public library.

00:18:41 - 2370 NU: Yeah. Well, I used to volunteer the summer program. And we would work on different-mainly understanding-you know, most kids say, oh, do you have lions and tigers? You say, no, it's native wildlife. They know very little about native wildlife. The other day I was at a-it was an art show. It was-actually it was a f-a craft show. And I had all the pictures out of the animals. And there was a little girl that came up, probably junior high age. And she said, I didn't know we had these here, and these here. And all I've ever seen are mosquitoes. I mean she-that what annoyed her, so that's-she was a city girl that had moved here. But they-they don't realize what's arou-

00:19:23 - 2370 nobody knew we had beavers here. Very few people know that we have beavers in this area. And they-you know, they just don't see them mostly. They've never seen Screech Owls, or-or Elf Owls.

DT: How do you open their eyes that they do live here, and they coexist with us to some degree?

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NU: Well, photo displays help, but it really help to have a live animal. Bring in people like John Karger, we did in the early '90s, to fundraise. And then he went to the schools. And he-of course he has the-the Bird of Prey Center in San Antonio, which is the Last Chance Forever, and he does an incredible program. I mean he f-he flies the hawks and the-and the vultures over the kids' heads. He didn't tell the principals this was going to happen, we just went in and did it because they would have said, no, probably. But just-and the kids were just enthralled. I mean I wish we could do this every year.

00:20:20 - 2370 Yeah. His program is very education. If you can get professional people in, that-you know, I don't have the time for it.

I m-would take my Great Horned Owl. She did a lot. We would go to the Zapata County Fair and have a booth, and she really enjoyed it at that point. She was younger. When she got older, I didn't want to put her through it. But kids just relate to her. People would relate seeing a live Great Horned Owl. They just were amazed at the beauty, you know, the-it-it-it makes an impression that kids never forget. I don't think they ever forget.

DT: Well, maybe you can talk a little bit about this use of wild animals to teach, because I know some people think that it's demeaning somehow to the animal to be put on display like that, and used as an object lesson. And others say, well, no this is a way of connecting with kids and it has a big impact.

00:21:14 - 2370 NU: Yeah.

DT: Where do you fall in that? 00:21:16 - 2370 NU: I-I definitely say you have to have a live animal. I mean they-we've had a lot of problem, and I know they're-they've tried to ban it, you know, with Parks and Wildlife, Fish and Wildlife think you-what's a stuffed animal going to teach? I mean, geez. They used to think Nova was stuffed because, oh, she's stuffed, she's not real, and then she'd blink, you know, and they'd-they'd never seen any-it was just-it's a completely different reaction to see a live animal than something stuffed. And you're-I can see Par-Parks and Wildlife, and Fish and Wildlife, they want you to have a permanently injured animal. And there are a lot of these birds-we-otherwise they'd be euthanized. We had a Harris Hawk for years. He had done programs in the valley I think for ten years before he came here. And he did another ten years here. And people would

00:22:04 - 2370 come up and say, is that the hawk I saw back in-I saw that hawk-he was named Harry, the Harris Hawk-way back. And they'd remember it. When I was a kid I saw that hawk. And he-you know, he loved to perform. He loved to go to programs. He really enjoyed it. And he'd done it all his life. Somebody had hand-raised him. He was an imprint. He couldn't be released. And otherwise, what would have happened to him? He would have been euthanized. So, you know, there is a place for these animals that can't be released.

DT: Well, you've told us a little bit about teaching in person and with animals along. Maybe you can talk about some of your other educational efforts through the writing that you've done, both for the Zapata Weekly Express and then for the monthly, LareDOS.

00:22:55 - 2370 NU: La-LareDOS. Yeah. I used to write a monthly article. And I'll probably get back to doing it again. I had to take a little hiatus because of my parents' illness. But, you know, both their illnesses. But it was-you know, I do a "what do you do when you find a deer." Clip and save article every spring on what to do if you find certain baby birds. You know, the steps you can take, because that first twenty-four hours is so crucial to their survival. And a lot of people would call and ask because they'd see the articles. There are a lot of people-time people would bring deer in when they shouldn't have. They should have left them there. And I've actually had people-well-they'd stay. They'll stay all day and-and wait and watch. And if mother didn't come back, then

00:23:39 - 2370 they'd bring them in. But they'd take that time. And the more you educate, the more programs I do. You know, in the last couple years I haven't because of family, you know, problems, but it's-it-you really reach the people. And I say if you have a live animal. But the articles have helped too. I have a lot of people that read them faithfully, and they spread the word.

DT: Can you give some examples of the articles that you've written over the years?

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NU: I did-would keep basically a-an updated on what's going on at the rehab center. You know, our fundraisers, what animals are in, what we're doing, the successes, you know, the-the failures. It was almost like a diary of what goes on with, you know, the rescues. How we went about it, why the animals came in. Some of the stories I've told you have been-that had to be put-had to be written down.

DT: And did you also have a fictional account that you and...

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NU: My sister and I.

DT: ...your sister were developing?

00:24:48 - 2370 NU: Yeah. She had one called-that was when Maria Eugenia Guerra had the newspaper here in Zapata. And we did a-a monthly article on Lupita. And it was an environmental. It was geared to kids. She wrote it, I illustrated it. And it was Lupita's experiences, on the river, living on the lake. Environmental issues.

DT: And Lupita is a girl? I'm...

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NU: A fic-a fictional girl about eleven years old that likes to read, that has been brought up in this area, and sees the problems, and loves nature. And it was-it was pretty-the kids enjoyed it. And it was a-my sister had started it because she was a teacher for years. And she-it was a-you know, I wish we could put it together in a-a story form. But it was kind of the environment, things that were happening. You know, like the coyote situation. She'd-she would tell about the coyotes. Why you-you'd-you don't want to disert-disturb the hierarchy. And then she'd explain it in her own words, type thing.

DT: You mentioned that you illustrated these stories. Maybe you can talk about some of the art that you've used to illustrate some of the things you're concerned about, and particularly some of the wildlife art you've done.

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NU: I'm just getting back into it. I've done a lot of photography. And I think wildlife art is-it's very popular in some areas, but I think if you try and do it to show what's happening, that's what I'd like to get into. My sister's doing the same thing. Like she's working with the sea turtles, paintings of sea turtles caught in nets and this type of thing where you're trying to tell something also. That's something we're both kind of getting into. We're starting to, you know, put our work in more shows, and-and maybe to give a message that way too. Plus, painting is a wonderful release-tension release and stress reliever. People are getting so much away from it.

Kids don't get art in school, and they

00:26:56 - 2370 love it. And when I taught that year, it was just incredible. And these were junior high kids. They-you know, everything is so geared for testing. The TAKS test. All these different tests. That they had that forty-five minutes of just doing something completely creative and-and spiritual. And it-you have to have that. If-you know, nature and art go hand in hand. It's feeds your spiritual side, and these kids aren't getting enough of that. They really-it's-you know, it's just-all it is is testing.

DT: Can you explain a little more about what you mean by this connection between nature and art?

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NU: Well, it opens your eyes. You see things differently. Just like that little girl that had only noticed mosquitoes, you know. She-suddenly she sees, well, there's other things. And-well, this area is loaded with birds. I have people that have lived here all their life, and they suddenly call up and say, well, there's this green bird that looks like a

00:27:55 - 2370 jay. They've just noticed it. You know, they're just starting to maybe take-maybe they're retired and they're just having the time to notice. And a lot of people that have just-retired people mostly, children, you just got to take the time. Like the s-stop and smell the flowers. And in this area, it's just-the wildlife is incredible. I mean you can hear the birds outside when you came up. It's a-it's a wonderful area. It's my favorite part of Texas because it is still natural. One of the reasons it's so hot in the summer, and

00:28:30 - 2370 many people don't want to live here, but-and there are these large ranches, and there is more-you know, more areas un protect-I mean protected areas that haven't been touched.

DT: Well, so the connection between art and nature that you're talking about is in a sense, you know, smell the flowers, but also look at the flowers, have an awareness of what's around you?

00:28:52 - 2370 NU: Yeah. Stop and notice. I mean has anyone-stop and-I can stop and spend ten minutes looking at the dew on a-on a spider web. But I was brought up that way. I mean we never-I was brought up you never killed anything. My mother's from England. My grandmother taught her, you know, you never kill a spider. It's-it's important. It has an important-you know, everything's carefully moved. You never killed a lizard. And I see these people that just kill everything that moves. They kill the geckos that come on the screens at night. The geckos eat mosquitoes. Why would you-

00:29:27 - 2370 you know, people don't see the beauty in them, I think. I think you get more into art and you seeing the beauty in everything, if you have more art in your life.

And these kids that-I would take the animals-I was very lucky. I had a principal that encouraged me to take the animals, which I had to anyway because usually I was feeding them. I took them to class. I mean I'd be bottle-feeding a javelina while the kids pi-drew the javelina. So they got hands on. And then just incredible drawings. I-you can see some of the work they've done. They started out not being able to draw at all, and they were just doing these fantastic wildlife art by the time the semester was over.

DT: You mentioned in passing this attitude about the geckos, about killing things. And then that that was foreign to the way you were brought up. Here in south Texas, and a lot of parts of Texas, hunting is a big part of the culture. And I'm curious what your attitude is about hunting. And then parts of hunting, you know, some people hunt for trophies, some people hunt for meat.

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NU: Yeah. DT: What do you feel about it?

00:30:38 - 2370 NU: Deer have to be cont-controlled. I mean we don't have the mountain lions to hunt the deer anymore because we've gotten rid of the mountain lions. And they-when they get out of control, they starve to death. But, you know, I-I see a problem when only the rich are the ones that are hunting. The people that really need the meat aren't the ones that are hunting. That bothers me. If it was the people that needed the food that were doing the hunting, it wouldn't bother me as much. Trophy hunting I find obscene. I mean just obscene. It's disgusting. I can't understand it. I have someone in my family

00:31:11 - 2370 that did it. I just-it horrifies me. And my husband's family, it just-it-we should be beyond that. I mean we should have learned. I-I just-I can see hunting for food, because I've-I've known, you know, hunger. I've lived in places where I can see why you-you know. But it's-it becomes such a insanity in this area.

In the valley, White Wing [dove] season became lethal. I mean you couldn't go outside. These idiots would come down and they didn't even know what a White Wing looked like. They'd just shoot everything. And you see that here. We had a-a-out at our release site, two owls were

00:31:50 - 2370 killed during hunting season. They shoot everything that moves. That's the problem. It's-it's like a-you know, they just become uncontrolled. I've met some wonderful hunters that would never do that, on releases and things. You know, that teaching their children to respect, and would never think of-of shooting anything but what they're, you know, out to go for, and their limit. But so many people just drive around. I've had people drive by here and try and shoot the owl-the hawks sitting on the-on the wire while we were sitting here, during hunting season.

DT: Is poaching very common down here?

00:32:28 - 2370 NU: Oh, yeah. It's-yeah. It's a real problem. So it's hard-I just released two deer two days ago. But it's on a ranch that's overseen by a retired game warden. So I feel a bit better. You know, I mean they know he's overseeing it, so there'll probably be less poaching there. But it's-yeah. It's a real problem. And it's not just the poaching, it's shooting everything that moves, protected species. I mean you know, hawks, owls, all so-they're protected. We need more game wardens to-to find these people, to catch them.

DT: Well, what's the-what do you think the motive is behind the poachers?

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NU: A lot of the poachers, some of the poachers, might be food, I would say. But most of it is, just "you're not going to tell me where I can hunt or when I can hunt" attitude. That kind of attitude. "You're not going to tell me what I can hunt, or when I can hunt." And the-you know, the-like the-the recent quail hunting incident. You know, I don't know for sure, but I mean a lot of it's canned hunting. I mean, Texas...

DT: Can you explain what canned hunting involves?

00:33:43 - 2370 NU: It's when you raise the animals and you release them before the big-wigs show up so that they don't have to do a lot of walking or do any real hunting. It's just like feeders. I mean the feeders are put-I've had people come from other states, can't believe that that's how they hunt here. You know, you've got your-your deer blind and a feeder. What's sporting about it? It's just nothing sporting involved.

DT: And what-the feeder contains corn usually?

00:34:13 - 2370 NU: Yeah. Food that attracts there. Or you have the areas, like for the exotic game up in the Hill Country, where they're practically tame. And people come in and blow them away for three thousand dollars. I d-I don't understand that. I just-that's not sportsmanship, that's not-there's nothing sporting about that. What is it, shooting fish in a barrel? You know, I mean it's-there's just nothing-I can't understand that mentality.

DT: You know, while we're talking about mentalities and attitudes, I think you had written an article about fur as fashion. Can you talk a little bit more about your feelings there?

00:34:52 - 2370 NU: Yeah. Isn't it typical that the highest fur sales in Texas were-you know, we have the hottest climate. It's one of the highest fur sales. I remember we went to a conference in Austin once. A rehab conference. I think it was in '88. I'm not sure. It was-and they-it was rehabilitators, and then it was, I think, horse racing. And they all were wearing fur. It was like, aaagh. You know, you just-all these women in with these big fur coats, and they had all those rehabilitators horrified. We have enough-you know, I can see if you're an Eskimo, and you hunt it and you wear it to keep warm. But

00:35:28 - 2370

wearing fur-and-and at one time it was looked down upon. And now it's going back the other way again. Where you see the-the movie stars wearing the fur coats. Remember a few years ago it was frowned upon. But it's all changing again.

DT: Why do you think there's a change in the attitude?

00:35:50 - 2370

NU: I just think it's just getting further away from being a steward to the planet. I just-it's like people just are becoming so decadent. It's a-it's like the beginning of the fall of the Roman Empire. I mean they become more and more decadent. They've just stopped thinking about anything environmental. Our whole government is based on a good ol' boy attitude, you know, under this administration. And it's-it's horrifying what's going on. I mean if you really listen to the radio, which XM radio has helped a lot, putting out, you know, the word because in this area, all you could ever get was right wing, Rush Limbaugh. Now we have XM and we can at least hear two sides to the issue. But, you know, what's going on with this administration, it's completely anti-

00:36:44 - 2370 environment. They say they're for family, and it's completely the opposite. You know, it's supposed to be all family-oriented, and it's-everything is the opposite of what they say it is-in this government, and this administration.

DT: I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about this problem of people talking honestly about wildlife, or the environment, or politics, especially in a small community like where you live.

00:37:21 - 2370 NU: In this area, it's not as bad as some areas, because people-people in this area-I mean you're not as afraid, I don't think. I mean look Maria Eugenia Guerra with her paper. She-she's been threatened, but the threats aren't as bad as some areas. I don't think people are quite-although I've backed off on things because I realized my family could be at-in danger. And I have-plus the stress of it, I think of fighting these issues. But you realize these people are capable of pretty much anything. Some people. Most of the people are very good people in this area. And they have the old Mexican mentality,

00:38:04 - 2370 which is, you know, family and-and living with their-you know, in-respecting their ranch. And I like that-that's why I like this area. It's just some of the people in charge that are the problems, that get away from that. The greed, power. Power corrupts. The drug dealing is a big-you know, a-a big problem in this area.

DT: One of the things you mentioned about your attitude, and sort of the powers-that-be in this area, and maybe elsewhere, is that they didn't understand that you might do things for altruistic reasons that I think they expect that there must be some sort of...

00:38:55 - 2370

NU: Ulterior motive, yeah.

DT: Ulterior motive, some kind of gain that you would recognize. And I was-I've noticed that so much of what you've done, either in working for the wildlife rehabilitation, or for your education at the library, are done as a volunteer. And I was hoping that you might be able to talk about what drives you to volunteer.

00:39:18 - 2370

NU: You have to. I mean you have to do something. It's that-I had a friend who volunteered with me. And even though she wasn't really environmental, but she had to-it's-it's the need to do something. I mean I think-even in your own little way. I mean I don't do as many animals as I used to. But it's like that saying, "It's a chance to give back from a little that all-all we take." You know, we take so much from this planet. You have to-if everybody would do something, somewhere, it would be a better world. And I guess it's-you know, it's discouraging. But like Virginia would go on rescues with me. She was going to volunteer to help re-teach reading at the schools. People that, you know, work with AIDS babies. It-you have to do a-I think it's our-it-to

00:40:14 - 2370 teach empathy. Like my son said once. He-he-thought the most important thing I ever taught him was empathy. And, you know, you just have to do something, I think, to be a-a good citizen, or a good person on the planet. And I think that's why most people do it. You've got to volunteer, do something to help.

DT: You've mentioned this notion about-about the empathy. And I'm wondering if your fate as a DES Diethylstilbestrol] daughter has helped have compassion for wildlife and for those that, you know, have got health problems or need help in some way.

00:41:00 - 2370 NU: I think-yeah. I think it's just like DDT, it's the same sort of thing. I mean I was-my mother was given a drug she told was safe. They knew it wasn't safe for twenty years before-you know, it had been proven not safe. It was supposed to prevent miscarriage. And what it did was damage fetuses. It damaged reproductive, it damaged immune system, it damaged skeletal, depending how long they took it, how-how much they took. And now it's going on to a third generation. And I think it's a lot of reason

00:41:34 - 2370 my parents left the country, because they wanted me to get in a healthier maybe environment, from California at the time. And it did help probably, because they also put DES, or diethylstilbestrol, which is a synthetic estrogen, in meat at the time. Well, I didn't eat red meat. So probably I'm a little better off than some because I already had it in me. And then they were putting it in chicken and beef, and-and it-the whole food

00:42:01 - 2370 ch-you know, food chain. And now there's a new study that there were some areas in Europe where it was very heavy in the meat, and they're seeing these same problems through, you know, not from a mother taking a pill, but just from eating these meats that were tainted with this synthetic estrogen. That's just something that absolutely-just came out on-on-the DES Action listserve, which is a-a support group I belong to, and we keep in touch with all of the-you know, every DES daughter all over the country keeps in touch that belongs to this group. And-and, you know, it's the same

00:42:42 - 2370 thing as DDT making the eggs weak. And I think, because I have to fight so hard to stay healthy. And that's helped in a lot of ways. I think some days I feel so bad I don't want to get up, but you got to go out and feed the baby birds. I mean, you know, it pushes you to keep going. There are times when my health is really compromised. And I think otherwise, you get into a "poor me", you know, sort of attitude. And I think this wildlife rehabilitation has helped me keep more focused on other things other than health, even though it is a constant battle when you do.

DT: It seems that one of the ways your compassion plays out is this interest in kids, and teaching them. And actually teaching, you know, some of the grown up politicians as well. Could you maybe tell us if there's a way that can boil down a message to future generations about why you care about wildlife, and about the natural environment? Public health for that matter as well, when you talk of the DES situation? Is there a message that you might want to pass on?

00:44:02 - 2370 NU: Well, it was kind of like what I said at the EPA hearings when we were going against NAFTA. I mean my first twenty years of life, I h-I didn't even know anyone who died of cancer or had cancer. My second twenty years of life, I can't even count how many people that I know from, not just elderly, from children up, that have died of cancer. I mean the-there's something wrong. The-the-you know, and we're destroying the air, we're destroying our water, we're destroying our environment, which is-everything is balanced out. If we don't do something, we're going to be-we're

00:44:43 - 2370 going to go extinct. And we've got the global warming that they have pushed on the back burner for-and made fun of, for years, and now it's really becoming-I mean you're seeing all these problems. With the hurricanes. You're seeing all these environmental issues. If you really looked into the health conditions along the border, which have been pretty much quietened down, but used to be brought up all the time.

You know, I have a son I was lucky enough to have. I have nieces and nephews. I want to see something left for them. I just-the way it's going, I just don't even want to know

00:45:19 - 2370 what's going to happen if we don't do something now. I mean it's-it's-it's dire. It may be too late for some things. Some scientists are worried it's too late for global warming. These areas may not be livable.

DT: What would you recommend to young people who may not know what to do about these problems? And, you know, you've got a lot of experience in trying to understand them, and try to engage some way in responding.

00:45:51 - 2370 NU: I would say join-yeah. Take a group that you can work with. We've supported Greenpeace for over twenty years. Groups that you think-or the National Resource Defense Council, we've just started supporting them also. But then they will send you-they'll e-mail you different issues. I mean like the Alaska drilling. They're keeping up with these issues. You need to get with a group that's on the ball, like the National-is it National Defense Resource Council, that are really working-I think it helps. That's where the Internet has helped, that's where XM radio has helped, to get the message out.

00:46:33 - 2370

Find something you can support, and do your little bit in your area. You know, try to protect some of these-you know, you feel like tying yourself to some of the trees that they're going to go and cut down. I mean it just-they had a tree in front of the courthouse here in town. They built a new courthouse. It didn't need to be cut down. Huge, beautiful tree. Just-you know, ju-fight in your little area, in your own community. There's plenty of places that need volunteers.

DT: You mentioned caring for your particular area or community. Is there a-a place that you like to visit that reminds you why you work so hard to care for these animals?

00:47:13 - 2370

NU: We used to go scuba diving. You mean on vacation type things?

DT: Wherever. It could be right here in your backyard.

00:47:19 - 2370 NU: Here. At the lake. I've-I go kayaking. My husband and I go kayaking. Walking along the lake. It's-it's incredible. I mean you can-you go spend a couple hours kayaking and you come back refreshed, because there's the wildlife, the birds, the water.

DT: What do you see?

00:47:39 - 2370 NU: Pelicans. You mean in wil-pelicans, and every species of bird imaginable. And ducks. At this time of year, it's migration, so you see all sorts of different birds. But, you know, I could list it for the next half an hour, the different species you see in one little kayak trip. Ospreys hunting for fish. You know, it's just in-and you can land and take a little walk. And it's really-this area is I think my favorite area of Texas. I know that was one of your questions, and I was thinking, gosh, you know, I'd really-it's awful hot in the summer, but you know, that kind of makes it less popular. So it's nice and empty in the summer too. So you really can do a lot more bird watching, and-we used to go scuba diving, but we'd leave the country for that.

DT: Well, tell us about scuba diving trips that you've taken. What it looks like under water for those who haven't...

00:48:34 - 2370 NU: Well, we wou-we'd go to the Bay Island-B-Bay Islands off of Honduras. And they were very-one thing that they were doing there was they were protecting their reefs, because so many reefs have been destroyed. And that's one of the best scuba diving in the world. And they-they watch you closely. If a reef looks like it's beginning to be damaged, they close it completely. You know, a lot of people complained. I said that's great. You know, the people in our group would say, well, why didn't-they have to. You know, they're protecting it. They're doing the right thing.

00:49:01 - 2370 That's their livelihood. Just like the Seed Eaters would have been a wonderful livelihood for Zapata. I liked to go to Eur-I'd like-we've only made one trip to Europe. But I like that-we went to England, and I liked seeing the humane treatment of-of domestic animals, you know. And you don't see the dead animals along the road. We traveled all ov-all over England, Scotland and Wales. See why-I think we saw one partridge in Scotland dead on the side of the road. And you drive to Laredo, oh, my-you know, the dogs and cats and wildlife. It's, you know, devastating.

DT: Well, I think that's probably all that I had to ask you. But I was wondering if you have any things you'd like to add after all the questions I've gotten to ask.

00:49:50 - 2370 NU: I just think that the main thing is the-the further we get from nature, the further we get from understanding nature, and working with it, like some of our ancestors did, you know, the American Indians, the Celtics, the Druids, you know, the-the older religions, the closer we're going to-if we don't do that, we're-extinction. I mean we are going to become extinct. And I-I just think it's really important. I just-I hate to feel like it's hopeless, and there's sometimes that you do.

But I think with these different organizations, and with getting the word-like you trying to bring out, or maybe even

00:50:34 - 2370 keep it for future generations, to teach the empathy, which my son said was the most important thing he'd learned. To teach empathy.

DT: I think that we could work and end on that. That's a wonderful message. Thank you.

[Video of lighting and audio setup, and of wildlife rehabilitation facility]