[Start of Reel 2264]DT: Billie, when we left off on the last tape you were talking about some of the effects of the Alcoa controversy and it's resolution settlement, at least it's phasing towards that, on how the community treats each other and how they know one another. And I was wondering if you could help us focus on the part of the community that works for or contracts with Alcoa. I understand that over a thousand people work at the Alcoa plant out at the Rockdale facility and have worked there for many years, and that the Alcoa provides something like thirty-five percent of the tax base for the county. So you're dealing with really a major company in the community. How have you managed to deal with such a large presence?00:02:43 - 2264BW: Well, where I am in Elgin, which is Bastrop County, and Elgin's economy is not tied to any one employer, certainly not tied to Alcoa at all. Milam County, on the other hand, which is two counties away, which is where the Alcoa facility is, is pretty much a single industry economy, and that would be Alcoa. It's quite divisive. The issue is quite divisive. Of course, naturally the people who work there see it as, you know, it's their livelihood. It's their job. And Alcoa has made quite clear to them rightly or wrongly that if they don't get to have Three Oaks Mine, if they don't-if-if they have to upgrade their facilities or any of these things that require major money outlay, that they'll just have to shut it down, you know. And so all those people will be out of work. So consequently, you know, all of the worker bees have come out in full support of Alcoa. And in fact they're often times in-in complete denial about the negative impact that 00:04:09 - 2264Alcoa has had, either on their health or their economy or their family or whatever it is. So it has-we do not see eye to eye, Neighbors for Neighbors and the community, primarily of Bastrop and-and Lee County-Southern Lee County-to the folks in Milam County. However, there have been some folks in Milam County, some who are employed by Alcoa, some who are retired from Alcoa, some who are small business people there who-whose businesses depend on the existence of Alcoa who have come forward and have communicated with us and met with us and-and told us many, many things and have gotten us interested in the air pollution in particular, and what life is really like. So it's-it's very divisive between the two communities and because of Alcoa's-they do pay a lot of taxes. There's-there's no question that they do. And because of that, even in Bastrop County it's been really, really difficult with the people like the commissioners and the City Council of Elgin in particular, and the school 00:05:37- 2264districts there because that's where the money would go, to actually come out and say they didn't want them there, you know, or that they were going to take a stand on behalf of the city or on behalf of the county or whatever to say, "No, we don't want Alcoa's business here." Even though they may not have any legal jurisdiction to prevent them from coming they didn't even want them to take that-that stand to do that. They've wanted to remain, in their eyes, neutral. And I can only imagine how things could be different had-had the City of Elgin and the County of Bastrop come together behind Neighbors for Neighbors to take the stand that we've taken in the same way that the City of Rockdale in Milam County came behind Alcoa and took a stand in their favor. You know, it's-it's-it's been a very big difference politically, community-wide, you know. The people in our community are very much against it. The-most of the people in the Rockdale community are pro Alcoa because they either work there or they have small businesses like, you know, Sonics and what have you, that are dependent on Alcoa's 00:07:06 - 2264existence because they're the only major ploy-employer there. So, yeah, it's-it's-I mean it's-it's the classic debate. Environment versus jobs, you know. That's the way they see it. I think that's wrong. I don't think that it has to be that way at all. But that's the way Alcoa is approaching it and they have a lot of money to put towards it. They have all the power to decide what to do with that facility over there regardless of what we do. And in fact they-they have essentially won the fight about getting permits. They've got all their permits. But even so, they are still laying people off, reducing the jobs, reducing the scale of the operation, bill-investing huge, enormous sums of money in expanding overseas, particularly in Iceland and in Canada and Australia, China. They're going into-to partnerships with China and-and Russia. And yet they won't spend the money to do the right thing here. So I think many of their employees are becoming, I don't know, pretty disgusted with the situation. I think they would like to blame us, and certainly we're part of the-the puzzle, but we're not the key piece, I don't think. DT: Maybe you can tell me a little bit about the employees or the contractors that have come around, that have had somehow-had their minds changed by the information you've developed about Alcoa's operation.00:09:10 - 2264BW: Well, I think it's very-you know, they won't speak out publicly generally. We can't get them to talk to a reporter, for example. We can't even get them to-to come to our meetings. They don't really want to be seen with us, you know, because they-they feel threatened. They feel that their jobs are at stake. And even just saying something would-would put their livelihood at risk. DT: But there's been threats through retaliation that if you do speak out then you'll likely lose your job or get demoted?00:09:50 - 2264BW: I don't know if they've been told that directly. I know that they all who have spoken to us said that that was the case, but they've-but I don't-I don't know if some higher up at Alcoa has gone to them and said, you know, "You associate with those Neighbors for Neighbors people, or if you don't speak out," you know-what they have done is paid them a day's salary to come to the hearing and to speak. You know, we've seen them. They get off the busses, they go and they sign in, you know, as though they're clocking in to get-to get their day's pay for being at a hearing and for speaking out.DT: Well, what do they typically say?00:10:30 - 2264BW: We've got to have this permit. You-I'm-I'm in favor of Alcoa getting this permit. They've got to have this permit because-because I got to have the job. You know, that we're-we're dependent on-on these jobs. And it's pretty ironic. I can remember several of them getting up and saying, you know, "My kids have asthma and if I can't keep this job then I won't have my health insurance to be able to take my kids the doctor and have them treated for their asthma." You know, and it's just-you know, we just want to run screaming, you know, "Don't you get it? Don't you get it?" You know, "They all have asthma because of Alcoa's emissions," you know. "Come on! Come on! Wake up!" So there's an awful lot of denial just because, you know, they've got their walls up to protect themselves. Excuse me. DT: Have there been any whistle blowers that have talked to you confidentially about what goes on at the plant and why there might be problems? 00:11:35 - 2264BW: Yeah, there was one-one man. He's very, very ill. He doesn't work there anymore. And he was there during the days when they were making their, you know, major changes to their boilers, and literally had blueprints of what they were doing, and met with us and gave us those. DT: What do you think motivated him to come and talk to you and...00:12:01 - 2264BW: He was quite angry because his illness is directly related to his employment at Alcoa. He-he has asbestosis. So I-you know, he felt cheated. I don't even know if he's still alive. I would be surprised if he is. I know that he felt very cheated out of his life because they knew about the exposure and didn't tell them. And, you know, he as a result is very ill and-and will die a very premature death. DT: Can you tell us a little bit about your dealing with the executives at Alcoa or the public relations people or the lobbyists, and how they presented their case either to you or to the employees out there?00:13:01 - 2264BW: I have literally been told by some of Alcoa's executives and lawyers that I'm going to love the mine. It's going to be like a park. We're going to have walking trails and scenic overlooks, and you are just absolutely going to love it. The mine is teaming with wildlife, I'm told. [There is a break in the recording]DT: When we broke earlier we were talking about your dealings with Alcoa and some of the their representatives and the kind of pitch that they might make to you. And I was wondering if you could explain more about that.00:13:50 - 2264BW: Sure. Well, I think I said a minute ago that they told me that I was going to absolutely love the mine. I was going to love it because it was going to be like having a park, you know. And, you know, we were going to have walking trails and, you know, water sites and scenic overlooks so people could come and observe the mining operations, and-and oh, by the way, the mine is just teaming with wildlife. And this is always-I've just found this astonishing because it just seems to me that that can't be anything more than a boldfaced lie because how could you have wildlife in a completely desolated environment, you know, completely devoid of trees and top soil and grass and-and anything that could remotely pass for habitat. You know, it's just not there. I've been over there. I've seen the mine. I know what it looks like. Even reclaimed I know what it looks like. And-and to say that it's teaming with wildlife. The only thing 00:15:02 - 2264I can figure is what they're doing-what they're seeing is the wildlife making a mad dash to get out of there so that they don't get crushed by the equipment, you know. I-I can't envision anything else other than that. But, you know, they're just quite arrogant, just-just very arrogant. Every meeting we get into them with, if we ask-when we ask a question, you know. So for example, why do you say you're only going to send San Antonio forty thousand acre feet of water when the contract clearly says-leaves it open ended and they could ask for any amount they wanted and-and you've also reserved the right to-to ship it to other third parties and so on and so forth. And we get this "Yes, there has been some confusion about that. Let me explain it to you." Those are literally the words that the mine manager comes back at us with, you know, as though we're 00:16:09 - 2264stupid, you know, kindergartners. It does nothing but just, you know, anger everybody and you just want to slap him silly. But that's the way they treat us and-and-it-it's, you know, very, very condescending, very, you know, I can almost see them coming up and patting me on the head and saying, "Don't worry your pretty little head about it." I mean, that's the attitude. DT: (Inaudible) kind of disregard the (?), is it because you're not a technician or an engineer but a layperson, or is it because you don't work for the company or-why do you think they treat you like that?00:16:59 - 2264BW: I think it's just simply the way they have operated in Milam County for fifty years. They've essentially had their way with everything. They've been able to go in and soothe the ruffled feathers and-and sort of, you know, swipe people out of the way as though they were gnats and go on about their business and do it any way they choose, and-and-they have some pretty bad behavior and bad habits. And I think they thought that those tactics that work over there will work with us, and-because we are not employees and we are not dependent on that facility being in existence, it doesn't work with us. You know, we don't want to hear that stuff. We-we don't want you to tell us just what you think we want to hear, you know. We want you to stop. We want you to go away and get out of our neighborhood. You want to stay in Milam County? That's your business. If those people want you there, that's fine. That's their business. That's not what we want. And we expect you to listen to us. And they don't know how to deal 00:18:11 - 2264with us really. They-they totally dismissed us for a while and-and then, you know, we-we caught them breaking the law with the-the air stuff and-and they just suddenly had to-to realize that-that we could hurt them in some way. You know, talk about the-the-the arrogance, when we went to Travis County-to the commissioner's court in Travis County to-to get them to pass a resolution saying that Alcoa needed to clean up because Travis County is, you know, possibly going to go into non-attainment, they had the gall to testify that they were in compliance with all state and federal laws. Well, turned out that just simply was not true. So they had to quit saying that. So we've caused them some image problems. And they need to have much worse image problems than we-than we've been able to-to-to cause, because they really are bad players. They-they really, really are. DT: Have you developed snappy comebacks to these kinds of people when they treat you in that insulting and patronizing way, that sort of become your kind of sound bites?00:19:35 - 2264BW: No. As a matter of fact we have committed to taking the high road, that we just don't do that. We don't engage them in this. We let them say whatever they're going to say and then we don't-we don't go spew that out, you know, and say, "Oh, well, but Alcoa said it's fine because of this." We take what they have to say. We listen. We take it in. We go back and we say, "Here's what they say. Where is our documentation to show that this is incorrect?" And that's how we've done it. We've just said, "Here's what Alcoa says. Here's what we have as documentation to show that that's either correct or not, whatever it is." DT: How do they deal with it now that, you know, you've shown that through these inconsistencies and patterns of deception, have they sort of eaten humble pie or has their attitude changed in any way?00:20:40- 2264BW: No. I don't think their attitude has changed at all. I-I think that-I mean they had to quit saying that they were in compliance with all the laws. But if you ask them if they broke the law they still claim that they did not and that it was routine maintenance. And they just only settled this suit in order not to have to incur the expense of litigation. You know, that's-that's their line and it-it's the same line that I think you hear all over the country whenever there's a settlement by industry or big business with-with citizens. "Oh well, we're just doing this to, you know, cut our losses" kind of thing. But no, they still treat us the same way. DT: I think you said before that they'd had some success in Milam County in swiping away opposition. Can you give some examples of their pattern going back before Neighbors for Neighbors was so successful in sort of bringing them to task?00:22:45 - 2264BW: Sure. One of the things that happens in all counties-there's a gnat-sorry-is that business, you know-tax assessor periodically has to raise property tax rates. Each time that Alcoa has been faced with having to pay higher property taxes they have protested that. And each time they have used, you know, the same old excuse. "We can't afford to pay more money. We're just barely scraping by over here. If we have to do that then we're just going to have to lay people or shut the place down and, you know, we just can't afford that." And consequently, you know, the-the tax office just, "Oh, oh, okay, okay, oh my gosh." You know. "We can't have you leaving here because the whole town would fold," you know. So they've gotten their way every single time. Even recently. I think it was last year, or maybe the year before, the hospital in Rockdale was going bankrupt. And so what was happening is that they were trying to enlarge the 00:23:09 - 2264taxing district for the hospital, and unbelievably Alcoa was not included in the taxing district. So they thought, "Well, boy, we can include Alcoa in the taxing district and that will-that will cure it," you know. "It'll-it'll solve the problem. We'll get enough tax money from them to put the hospital back in the black." Well, Alcoa once again vehemently protested same excuse, "We'll have to shut the plant down. Can't afford it." And that they got their way. And the hospital went bankrupt. So this is what they do. You know, it's always "We're going to shut down. We're going to shut down. We're going to shut down." There was one incidence where a citizen actually won. And it was an individual who-whose road, which was a state road, was his access to his property. Now there was another dirt road-county road that came up behind that could also get 00:24:18 - 2264there but he had to go twelve miles around the mine in order to-to get to his place through that entrance. So his main entrance was on this state highway. Well, Alcoa bought up all the land that surrounded that highway and declared that they were going to close that highway. Luckily, this man had political connections, and made his connections, got his-I think it was-I can't remember if it was the senator or state rep, and I-his name escapes me right now, too-out there and on his side, and when they went to the Highway Commission to testify Alcoa, as they always do, bust in their two hundred folks, had them stand up and say, "You can't make them build him a new road. It's going to cost a million dollars and Alcoa says they're going to shut the plant down and I have to have this job." So they were threatening to shut the plant down over a 00:25:24 - 2264million-dollar road. It was just unbelievable, but that's what they were doing. But the Highway Commission went to them and said, "You're not going to win this. You need to give this man a road so I suggest you go over and talk to him and find out what he wants because we're going to rule against you." And I think it one-the one and only time in Milam County that they have actually had a ruling from a state agency against them for anything. And it was only because this man had the right political connections who was a friend and who had a lot of pull. And-and that's how it happened. And it seems to be the only way you can get anything to happen that...DT: Billie, you've helped us understand some of your dealings with the Texas Commission, Environmental Quality, and EPA, and some of your neighbors in Elgin, and those in Rockdale, and some of your counterparts at Alcoa, I was wondering if you could talk somewhat about how you managed to bring in people who weren't intimately involved in this, whether it was other non-profit groups such as Environmental Defense, Trust for Public Lands, Public Citizen, and also you brought the media, and in that sense people who might live in Britain. I mean I understand that you had the-a London paper come. Perhaps you could discuss that.00:27:04 - 2264BW: Well, we've had a really good Communications Outreach Committee chaired by Ron Giles, who-oh, and-and Travis Brown. I don't want to forget Travis. Both of them have been instrumental, I think, in-and-and helping us with media outreach. And then almost all of the local environmental groups-Texas Campaign for the Environment, Environmental Defense, Public Citizen, Sierra Club-many of them have been watching and keeping up with Alcoa's doings for years, so they weren't-it wasn't like a totally new issue for them. So really all we had to do was just call them up and say, "Oh my gosh! Do you know anything about this, and what do we do?" And, you know, so that-that's kind of how that happened. I think Environmental Defense and Public Citizen in particular got involved because Environmental Defense was watching very closely what was happening with our finding on the air pollution and knew that we 00:28:29 - 2264had a strong case and chose that to be one of the things that they decided to pursue. As part of the settlement in the air suit, we had to come up with environmental mitigation projects that were acceptable to Alcoa, and EPA, and all the citizens group. Any one could veto an idea. So we wanted specifically to have some land set aside because goodness knows if they were going to come in and demolish sixteen thousand acres we thought, well to offset that, you know, we would have some land set aside. And that's how it-it became involved with the land trust. And the local land trust here is Pines and Prairies Land Trust. Well, Alcoa would not agree to go with them because they were local and had only been in existence for two years, and I think it was really just a stall tactic. But anyway, they claim that they had to be a national organization so we quickly 00:29:48 - 2264did some shopping around for lack of a better word to find a national trust that would operate and-and coordinate with the local Pines and Prairies Land Trust. And that's how we got the-the Trust Republic Land involved. So really, you know, all these groups that have gotten involved have-have either been because they sort of already knew about it and-and wanted to help us because they knew we were going to focus on it, and they couldn't focus on just that one issue, so they wanted to help us. So they've stayed with us. Or it has something to do with-with the settlement that-that, you know, that was involved. As far as the media goes, you know, one thing that was quite helpful was that we came from Texas and our governor was running for president much during the time that a lot of our-our findings about the air pollution were coming to light. The rest of the world is-was very interested in-in what that was all about 00:31:04 - 2264because not long after Bush took office in the White House he announced that he would not support the Kyoto Protocol. Well, that created quite a furor in Britain and in Europe and in Japan. And so our communications committee knew that that was the case and they were actually quite good and intelligent about how to put out their news releases and how to capture the attention. Unbelievably, we could not really get much national attention other than The Rolling Stone and The Dallas Morning News, but beyond that we had a couple of bites from Sixty Minutes, but it never-never panned out. But the international media was just all over it. We had two BBC programs send reporters and 00:32:06 - 2264camera people. One I picked up at the Rockdale airport in a private plane. Greg Palast was who it was. And he did a story for NewsNight. The Money Program, which is sort of like a Nightline, came and did a thirty minute segment on it, so-they interviewed me along with the CEO of Peabody Coal and the CEO of British Petroleum and the CEO of Exxon, and it was sort of weird, you know, to see the video. Here's all these, you know, CEOs and then there's me, and it was just kind of unusual. But you know, the-the-the British media in particular were-were just really hot about the Kyoto Protocol thing, and-and wanted to say, "Look, this is how it didn't work in the state of Texas," you know, "And now," you know, "this guy wants to do it for the whole United States and the United States pollutes more than any other country in the world, and yet they don't want to participate in this Kyoto Protocol." And so it was-it was a big international issue that 00:33:22 - 2264we were able to capitalize on. We were very lucky in that regard that the timing of it was such that-that we could do that. And so that happened. We had Japanese media here. We had media from Belgium. And then of course The Rolling Stone and Dallas Morning News did a really get-great story about it. And the Austin American Statesman has been wonderful. Channel Thirty-six has been really good, locally, about covering this story. They keep-really keep on top of it better than any of the other local TV stations. [There was an interruption at this point.]DT: Billie, through your work with Neighbors for Neighbors you've managed to bring the Alcoa situation tot he attention of media, to the attention of agencies both from the federal and state level, and to the attention of the nonprofit community, but I'm curious if you could discuss a little bit about how it's affected you in the last four years or so that you've been involved in this.00:35:52 - 2264BW: Well, it's affected me in a lot of ways, not the least of which is just-just stress of-of dealing with it because it-it's so big, and it-it-it's very heavy to deal with, and so I've had a lot of health impacts actually that are all stress related. I've developed high blood pressure, for example. Every time I've had to go over to Rockdale, every single time no matter where I went I would come home ill in one form or the other, either just with a horrible headache from-that's primarily from the sulfur dioxide emissions, but to the point of-when we were there for two days I had to be there all day on two days for-for taking the soil samples and stuff that-that I spoke about earlier, all of us who went on those two days and were there in the mine pits and around the plant all day were ill both evenings when we got home. Either headaches, nausea or just feeling completely drained of all energy. And I think-I think the first day we all just thought well, you know, it's from being out in the sun, you know, too much that day. But you 00:36:28 - 2264know, the second when it happened and it wasn't as long of a day, and it wasn't as stressful of a day, and when we still-we just felt awful, and then how long it took us all to recover from it is once we all recovered and looked back we kind of went "Wow!" you know. That was not your usual, "Oh, I just spent too much time in the sun that day" kind of a feeling, you know. It was-it was something else entirely. And I don't know honestly know how the people living or working over there function normally. And maybe they don't. I know there are an awful lot of sick people over there. But, you know, just the day to day going to work and doing your job, I don't really know how they do that. But it's, you know, it's-it definitely has a personal impact on your life, on your health. You can't escape it, whether you're working over there or whether you're trying to prevent them from, you know, becoming your next door neighbor. I don't know anyone who's been involved with this who hasn't had some form of either health or stress related problem-and financial problem. It's taken an awful lot of money to-to mount 00:37:58- 2264this campaign and to try to-to keep this from happening. And so, you know, there have been a lot of job issues because of people, you know, either having to take time off of work. One person I know absolutely has no vacation time. Every-every second of vacation time that he had in four years is gone. And he hasn't gone anywhere. It's all been time taken off to deal with this issue. And it has a huge impact on your life. There's been relationship problems. I-I don't know any married couple who's been really engaged with it who hasn't suffered some anguish at home because of the stress of it. You know, it's-it's been a really big deal. And, you know, particularly during times, for example, when we were contesting their mining permit at the Railroad Commission, and they were particularly ugly. And I think primarily because they-they knew that the Railroad Commission would pretty much let them do whatever they wanted to do. But they were particularly ugly. They requested as part of the discovery process that they be able to have our membership list with criminal backgrounds, social security numbers, 00:39:29 - 2264driver's license numbers for every member that we have. They also requested to come on any member's property that they chose and videotape both outside of their property and inside their home. It-it was outrageous so you can imagine the-the personal impact that that had on all of us. We took a stand and said I don't care if the court says you can do this or not. We will not allow you inside our homes. We will not allow you to have our membership list. And I made a very public statement saying I would go to jail before I would turn over a membership list, that we had a fiduciary responsibility to our membership to protect them and their privacy, and we would not turn over any membership list. Now luckily the hearings examiner said, "No, you can't go in their houses and you can't have their membership list." I'm sure because we had made it very, very public. It was front page, you know, news and we're willing to go to jail over the issue. And of course they didn't want us to do that because, you know, that would make for way too good of a story that-that was on the side of Neighbors for Neighbors and 00:40:55 - 2264would make Alcoa look just horrible. So that did not happen. And I'm-I'm thankful that it didn't. But-but that just shows you how they deal with people on a personal level and-and how someone like me who just, you know, was minding my own business ended up in the middle of-of something where I could have gone to jail, you know. It's-it's kind of mind boggling to think about, but-but that's what-that's-that's the way this works. DT: Are there things that you think you've learned from the experience?00:41:42 - 2264BW: I think the biggest lesson for me has been about participating and being in community, because when I moved out to the country it was to not be involved in community, and not participate in community, and to be able to do whatever I wanted out in the middle of nowhere that didn't bother anybody. And I think the biggest lesson has been it doesn't matter how isolated you think you are, you're not. That somehow you have to participate. You can't stick your head in the sand. You absolutely must participate because when good people don't participate bad things happen, you know. They really do. And even when good people do participate, sometimes you can't prevent. But if you don't participate it's all over. And I really think that the survival of the species, of humans, depends on the survival of the planet and on the protection of the 00:42:56 - 2264environment and other species. And I-I can't imagine a more devastating process to the planet than strip mining. And so to me that's threatening to the survival of the human race. So, you know, that's been it for me. It's been, "Okay, don't go stick your head in the sand somewhere. Get involved. Participate. Vote. I've always voted, but you know, it just brought home why all those things are important, and that we must in this country do that. We have to do that. We have to preserve our right to do that, and because we have the right to do it, I think it's our responsibility to do it. DT: You've talked about how devastating this mine has been and could be. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about a place that brings you-of other feelings besides this sense of devastation. Maybe a place that gives you feelings of solace that makes this all worth while.00:44:20 - 2264BW: Bastrop State Park. I love Bastrop State Park. And Buescher State Park. The trees, the pines. I grew up in East Texas in the piney woods so when I go into Bastrop State Park it's like eating comfort food, you know. You feel like you're home. I feel like I'm home. I feel like I'm being nestled into a fantastic place. And I love walking the trails there. I love swimming in the pool there. I just really, really enjoy that park a lot. So in this area, in the local area here, that's it. I mean that's my favorite place and I've enjoyed it ever since I moved here in 1972 to Austin to go to school at UT and I learned 00:45:17 - 2264about Bastrop State Park. It was the place that I could go in thirty minutes and feel at home. So I really love that. Other-another place that I feel that, and I don't know how anyone couldn't feel it there is in Big Bend National Park in-in the Davis Mountains. I mean my goodness, if you can't feel solace there I don't know where on earth you could do it. But I really love it out there-really love it out there, too. I don't get out there very often but I think it's just remarkable and peaceful and-you definitely can get out in the middle of nowhere and-it's a respite. DT: Anything you'd like to add?BW: Not really. I can't think of anything. DT: Well, you've taught us a lot. Thanks very much.BW: You're welcome. It's really been my pleasure.DT: Thank you.BW: Thanks.[End of Reel 2264][End of interview with Billie Woods]
