Ken Zarker Interview, Part 3 of 3

DT: Ken, you've been talking about ways to improve people's behavior, and one way, of course, is by encouraging and giving them incentives. But the other way is by punishing them when they violate the laws. And I realize that in recent years there's been some controversy about whether the kind of economic advantages that folks get by violating the laws and then punished as much as they should be so that they don't have an incentive to evade the requirements. I'm curious if you feel like the carrots that you've been providing thorough regulatory flexibility or market incentives have been matched by a stern stick to make sure that folks don't stray. What do you think?

00:01:27 - 2323 KZ: No, I don't think it's been-been comparable or-or equivalent. I think than I've been a really strong advocate for strong enforcement presence. And I've felt like that the state has tended to back away from that for whatever reason over the last, say, ten years or so, because I think that if you have a strong enforcement presence-compliance and enforcement presence, that that will drive additional pollution prevention programs. If you're out there and people are on notice that they're going to be checked out and reviewed, they get really motivated about how they go about managing their operations.

00:02:07 - 2323 And so I've always been a really strong advocate for strong envir-enforcement programs, and I've-I think that the agency has tended to back away from that for-for some time. And so recently here there's been a pres-presence to increase enforcement and put in a new penalty policy, which I think will go towards a long way of en-encouraging more the command and control kind of thing, which, you know, I think it's important that the penalties be such that they do have impact, that it's just not the cost of doing business. And our penalties need to be higher, I think, to get people's attention, and

00:02:52 - 2323 we should continue to-to promote that. The-the challenge where we've faced is that folks have tended to look at our programs as sort of softer approach but my argument is that if you look at the way we've been doing enforcement or compliance inspections, are they producing any better results? You know, you go in and they'll do an inspection, they'll fix the problem. Okay, you come back a year later, the same problem, on and on and on. So you're-that system needs to be in place and effective. But at the same time, if we're putting in these complian-assistance programs that are also producing more

00:03:36 - 2323 sustainable results, so that company has taken-, you know, looks at things differently that they say we don't-we want to get out of the waste generation business so we don't produce it in the first place, and I think you have to look at that approach as being effective. But I think that we need to have a really strong enforcement presence, and the agency does that very well when-when inspired to do so, as well as the permitting options. I think there's a lot of good people within the agency and they do the best they can to get the best permits enforcement through the-through the system that we have in

00:04:12 - 2323 place. But I think that we do need a stronger leadership on the environment that we haven't had in the last ten years or so. And I would say even most recently the current governor, current [Perry] administration has placed even less emphasis on the environment than in the past. Even with the Bush Administration, there was support for these pollution prevention programs and things like that. And I think legislature and perhaps the governor even, over the last several years the environment hasn't been a front burner

00:04:53 - 2323 issue, and there hasn't been the political demand, the public hasn't been really out there dealing with it because of the economy, the post 9-11 issues. Focused-people are really focused on crime and education and-and the environment has been sort of put on the back burner. And as a result, you know, the funding levels have been-been more or less held steady, but they're not increasing, and in some cases being cut back.

So what do you do when you have facing budget cuts? Well, you look at things like voluntary programs, or compliance assistance. Those will be maybe the first things to go. And we've seen

00:05:29 - 2323 over time an erosion within the agency to support these types of programs. We do have a pretty good robust program at the agency. I mean compared to a lot of states we have a great presence. We have, you know a lot of employees are working on these programs, but I felt like it's been sort of chipped away every year, you know. If you-one employee here, a position not being filled, those kinds of things. So there's been increased pressure to do these programs with less people. At the same time you have an increasing interest in this type of approach and people really embracing, you know, more

00:06:08 - 2323 sustainable practices within their businesses.

And so it's going to be a matter of finding a balance to go between the regulatory and sort of ron-non-regulatory because you-you kind of need both, I think to have a really effective program about-and how you can go about managing non-things we don't regulate like energy use, or water consumption. And we want to encourage people to be able to conserve those resources and-efficiently, and put things in place that help drive that, whether it's an economic

00:06:41 - 2323 incentive, or a strong enforcement program, and so it all kind of fits together. But the-the agency of the future needs to be more of an environmental management agency that has both the regulatory functions and do that well, as well as non-regulatory things to drive consumer behavior, impacts on products. I think that's where some of the challenges in the future will be.

DT: Well, it's interesting the way you describe the agency as being a-it's a large place, big institution, but it sounds like it's a cog in a very big machine with, you know, the governor, and the legislature, and the industry, and the people in colonias, and the maquiladoras, and then it-it has a lot of different forces that it has to respond to. And I guess one of the biggest is the nonprofit community. And you've been active with Sierra Club, in executive committee positions, as treasurer and personnel director at the Lone Star Chapter. And I was hoping that you could tell us about both the relationship between Sierra Club and TCEQ, and its predecessors, and some of the internal machinations at Sierra Club. The struggles that it faces to try and keep a staff going, and short budget situations.

00:08:09 - 2323 KZ: Well, when I first got out of school back in 1982, I got initially a-started doing some part-time work with Ken Kramer who at that time was on contract as a contract lobbyist. He initially started as a volunteer, and then was a, I think, contract lobbyist for the chapter, and then became a-an employee. In '82-'83, I was a-had an internship, or

00:08:33 - 2323 part time job there, and I remember our first legislative session, you know, our big legislative push was container deposit legislation, which you think back now twenty years how much-how many issues we've dealt with over time, that looks so simple. And-and of course it never passed any-it never went anywhere, but you had to start somewhere, right? And I think that, you know, Ken Kramer's always had been a mentor to me, and I've become personal friends with him for-for quite some time, and we enjoy

00:09:05 - 2323 a lot of the same things. So , you know, it's been a-a really interesting process to be working in a state agency, but at the same time active in the environmental community, because I felt like as an environmentalist that I could do a lot of good work by being inside an-an environmental agency, and that's, you know, challenging to do. But I felt like, you know, it was a good place for me to help promote en-balanced environmental protection, and to promote these kinds of programs. But I had been involved with the Lone Star Chapter for-since '82, and worked in various capacities, and served in some

00:09:53 - 2323 leadership roles there and it's been interesting. I think that the environmental community is very well respected in Texas and has had a presence for quite some time now where their voice is heard. Folks like Ken and others are-are respected at the legislature for their views and are being brought in on particularly important issues related to water issues that the state's working on now in terms of water availability, which is probably our-our number one issue that we're dealing with. And so, you know, having a very professional presence, organized presence with the regulatory agency. The Sierra Club

00:10:36 - 2323 and others have always had that, and I think have-have a long history and have demonstrated commitment to providing valued input into the process. And so they have done a lot to get us to where we are today. And particularly in the pollution prevention programs. That was an f-an area where industry and the environmental community could come together and agree that this was an important strategy. And so by putting those programs in place, I think, you know, I was a-a good person to help the-build and facilitate that over the last twenty years or so. So...

DT: You mentioned the water issue, and it comes to mind that the cooperative opportunities are wonderful, but sometimes, you know, it's strange bed fellows that aren't always too comfortable together. I understand that when the litigation over the endangered species aspects of the withdrawals from the Edwards Aquifer were underway that you were asked to leave the Sierra Club's officer role. Can you tell a little bit about that, and how that came about?

00:11:51 - 2323 KZ: Yeah. I guess-I guess that's-that's a n-kind of an interesting story. It's-I was serving on the executive committee of the Lone Star Chapter, and employed at the agency, and the Sierra Club filed the Edwards Aquifer lawsuit. I can't remember exactly. Maybe '86-'87, or-I may be a little early there. So I was working at the agency and there weren't any really restrictions on that. We-the-at the same time there was an ethics policy that had come out. This may have been, I guess, in the Rich-during the

00:12:31 - 2323 Richards Administration. And it talked about, you know, you can't be part of an organization that sues the agency basically. So it really hadn't been a problem up until the point where there was an article in the San Antonio Light about Sierra Club sues the State of Texas on the Edwards, and it listed the members of the executive committee, and then lo and behold, oh, Ken Zarker's name is listed in the front page of the paper in San Antonio. And so I got an e-mail very quickly from my executive director at the time it was Tony Grigsby, who was a-a great executive director in the agency, and we have

00:13:08 - 2323 a-we're still friends today, but I got a call saying Zarker, this is going to be a problem because you can't be on an executive board based on our agency's ethics policy. So I said, fine, I understand. So I went ahead and resigned from the State Ex. Com. I didn't want to make a big deal about it. Stuart Henry wanted to go ahead and-and-and sue the bastards, you know. Said that ethics policy won't hold up in court, blah, blah, blah. And it was kind of a, you know, an interesting time being told that you can't do something, you know, which is-I was a volunteer. But I could understand. But I-you

00:13:45 - 2323 know, I was-you know, involved with environmental organization, but I was also involved with professional non-profit organizations as well, like the Air and Waste Management Society, or the Central Texas Hazardous Waste Management Society, which also, you know, provided input in-into agency policy issues as well. But nonetheless, there was this, you know, new day in Texas with an-and so I stepped back and I took a-a more passive role in being involved with the Sierra Club. And so I

00:14:17 - 2323 had tended over the last several years to focus on just helping support things like the financial aspects and serving as a chapter supervisor for staff for Ken Kramer, and helping him put his performance plan in place, and things like that. More administrative functions, and just sort of as a-as a-as a friend in-in manner of that, but kind of, you know, keeping an eye on-on-on all the aspects of what the chapter's involved with.

DT: Well, you're modest about it, but the finances and the personnel issues of a small non-profit are pretty daunting. I mean here you got TCEQ, which has a budget in the tens of millions, and then you have the Sierra Club, which has the responsibility of speaking for the public, and has big ambitions, and yet very small budget for what they're trying to do. How have you dealt with those constraints and the problems of burnout and frustration among the staff?

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KZ: Well, that has been a very interesting process too, because as I got into more supporting the development side of things, we established a Defenders of Texas Program, which was-and we became more-a little more sophisticated about fundraising, of course. We-we began to do some direct mail aspects. We gan-began to build a foundation of Texans that were really supportive of the environment, Sierra Club members that really supported what we were doing and they began to give us money every year. And we would send annual contributions, and they'd send them, and then we-from there we built a little larger program.

We decided we're going to create the Texas Environmental

00:16:11 - 2323 Endowment, which was this idea to create a kind of a legacy program. It still exists today. It doesn't have the-we were trying to get a hundred thousand dollars into this fund, and I think today it has, maybe, twenty thousand if we're lucky. But the idea where people could donate, you know, from their estates a long term s-commitment. So we put those kinds of programs, and then we started with a big a larger donor program and got some larger gifts from folks. And then they have this really core of supporters.

But the staff, you know, has gone from basically one individual to approximately six, seven, or eight

00:16:57 - 2323 folks over the-over time. We established Environmental Justice position in the past with Raul Alvarez, or Ramon-Raul Alvarez who is on city council now. And a number of the staff have grown and stayed over time. It-and so I guess what I'm trying to say is we've-we've been conservative about growing the office to handle what we could do, but at the same time we have a-a good presence, a solid foundation that is kind of the envy of a number of the chapters around the country because we've-we've got a good base of support. And they-the staff do work incredible hours, and they're very motivated. And that is a challenge because it does tend to lead more towards burnout, and

00:17:58 - 2323 I don't know how you really deal with that. You know, you have to tell the staff to, you know, go take some time off and-and-and-and which is hard for them to do at time, but they're very dedicated and they do great work, and they're respected, and involved in so many aspects of environment. We're focused a lot more on water related issues over the last several years, and air quality as because they're the main, you know, most

00:18:25 - 2323 significant issues right now that's facing Texas. But I've seen the office grow from a one-office place over on 29th Street, which we shared with groups like the Texas Observer, Sierra Club; I think Ecology Action was in there. I don't know if you've run into that, but there was this building over there on 29th Street we all-with ugly shag carpet, and we've grown from that to now where we have a really strong sustainable office, and I'm proud of that. And I-it-part of it was-was raising the funds to do that, and-and building the support, and being consistent and producing results, you know.

00:19:09 - 2323 Being in day in and day out, and doing the work. I-and-and now, with having a-a young family, I'm focusing on that more, and a little bit less on the-on the volunteer aspects of it. But I feel good about where the-the chapter's in-in-financially in. It looks like we'll hopefully continue to thrive in the future.

DT: Something else that you've been involved with in Texas in a sort of non-profit world is an effort to document what's been going on. You had this video program with ACTV, the Austin Community Television, called Firstline. I think you produced it with Rick Sternberg. I was wondering if you could tell something about that effort, and some of the programs you had, and the results that you might have had.

00:20:02 - 2323 KZ: Yeah, I-I had-I had-there was a part of me that really wanted to reach out to the community about all the environmental issues. Going out there and I-and I thought, you know, TV is a-is the-is a great medium to do that. In about '84 I started taking some courses down at ACTV to learn how to use video equipment and edit videotape, and-and I started doing that. And actually, one of my first projects was with the Texas Center for Policy Studies where we went and interviewed a number of people that lived in the Deer Park area because of the recent Bhopal incident which was a trigger for the

00:20:39 - 2323 whole TRI Program we wanted to find out how people felt about whether-you know, what would happen in Texas City if we had a similar incident. So I worked with Texas Center for Policy Studies and we put together this little tape, and that was sort of one of our first projects.

And then from there, we began to tape things like the legislative workshop that we could help educate citizens about the legislative process and how you can be involved in public participation and what are the issues related to natural area preservation, and those kinds of issues. And so I felt like video was a great medium to do

00:21:20 - 2323 that and we produced a number of those kinds of shows that we could show locally here on cable.

And then we from there developed a new magazine format with Rick Anberg and Annie Borden which we called Earthline, and featured a number of the prominent folks in-in Austin at the time. George Avery, and Bridget Shea, and Robert Bryce, and another-a number of environmentalists, and one of the things people credit me is like how did you get all these people to work together on one show? But it was a-an incredible time. We-we produced this thing in-as volunteers for about a year. We produced, I think, about six shows. And the idea was to do mostly consumer

00:22:11 - 2323 education and talk about what was going on in terms of the growth in Austin, what was happening up at the legislature, what issues we're facing. We did a show on Toxic Texas and things like that. So it was a lot of fun. And, you know it was hard to sustain that thing without, you know, funding obviously. So there was a-there was a-a continued need to-to have that. And now with cable and, you know, three hundred channels on TV, I'm hoping at some point we'll have a-an-an-more of an environmental channel. We have things like Discovery Channel and-and others that are good, but I still think there's

00:22:52 - 2323 a need for consumer education out there, or maybe these other TV shows could-, you know, they're putting more environmental topics within their programming because I think consumers are interested in that in terms of their choices on products and things.

DT: Well, maybe you can use this chance to talk a little bit about where we're headed. You've been Chair at the National Pollution Prevention Roundtable. And you wrote an article I thought was interesting about the need to evolve from pollution prevention to something that I think you called "sustainable production and consumption." I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, and also about how you can sort of reinvent government to try to be a spearhead for some of those changes.

00:23:53 - 2323 KZ: So, easily done, right?

DT: Please.

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KZ: Yeah, I have been really fortunate to serve in a number of capacities. One of those has been as Chair of the National Pollution Prevention Roundtable, which is a-an organization that is dedicated solely to promoting pollution prevention and source reduction in the United States. And that has been a very interesting area to work in. And one of the things that's really been fascinating is that we've taken this concept and started it in, you know, the late '80s, and really have a strong hold here in the United States. But at the same time, we now have over sixty countries around the planet that have also

00:24:38 - 2323 started pollution prevention programs. And so we work closely with our friends in Mexico and Canada as part of the North America, but we also have roundtables Asia Pacific, the European Roundtable, and so we've been beginning to r-to build this sort of global network of-of-of providers that are out there. And so that's been pretty exciting to be a part of that, and part of this whole, you know, sort of culture change, behavior change of-of how we look about how we work with the environment, and which has led

00:25:12 - 2323 to thinking about the future. And one of the-the challenges is where do we go from here? We've really focused very effectively on the production side of things, and working with companies to be more efficient in the use of their materials and water and energy, but we really haven't focused as much effort on the consumption side, the public.

00:25:40 - 2323 And so the public can have a lot of impact on the types of products and services that they demand from our producers. So we've been getting to think about bringing these two things together, and what we're calling it for lack of better words-some people call it "sustainability," which is a very broad term, it means a lot of things to different people, clean-clean-cleaner production.

Well, what we've kind of wanted to bring is both the-what we call now "sustainable consumption and production." So that you kind of

00:26:16 - 2323 bring both systems together because our consumption patterns in the United States and globally, are not really sustainable if you think about it. Is everybody in China going to have a car, a big giant house, twenty-five hundred square foot house? The planet just can't sustain those levels, in my opinion. So we need to look at how we can manage the resources that we have. And what sustainable consumption and production is all about is just being more efficient in the goods and services that we use. It's not about consuming

00:26:56 - 2323 less, it's just consuming better, so that we can still vehicles and transportation, and good energy sources. Those are the things that everyone needs to have as basic services. We need to have clean water. We-this-we could solve the-the-a lot of problems with providing clean water to-nn-citizens around the world. Basic sanitation. It can be done. It's within the financial grasp of society. We know that. And it can be done, and I think it will be done. Once we get to that point, then we have to look about different ways to provide goods and services, different from the U.S. model. Other parts of the world have different needs. And I think the most exciting work probably going on right now is

00:27:49 - 2323 how do we design more sustainable systems within developing countries?

And there's some very fascinating work being done through some samples like Gaviotas, which is a group down in, ga-Colombia, where they've created very low-tech solutions to the way they go about with their housing. How they pump wa-for example, when they want to pump water, they've designed it so that the children can go out and play on the playground and ride a bicycle, and go up and down, which produces a pump that

00:28:28 - 2323 generates water that t-comes into the community where they can then use that for clothing and bathing and things like that. And that works perfectly well.

There's other examples. Another person that's working a lot on this is a na-a guy named Gunther Pauli, who talks about-and he's very positive about the environment, but talks about more sustainable consumption and production patterns. The Japanese are doing a lot of work in this area. For example, even companies like Toyota Corporation are looking at

00:29:01 - 2323 ways to paint their cars differently. And there's a fascinating story where they have a problem in Japan with the s-the squid-waste squid, you know, they like to eat a lot of seafood over there. Well, if you think about squid, it produces this black ink. And it's been looked at as saying, well, if they can produce this black ink, can that material be looked at as a way to coat automobiles in the future? And this whole field is called-it's sort of bio-mimicry, and looking at if we can duplicate-replicate the system that nature has provided us over eons and eons of year-I meant the planet generates clean air and clean water, and these types of systems. And if we can learn as a species to become more

00:29:57 - 2323 harmonized with that, then I think we'll figure out ways to su-you know, survive more effectively as a species. If you think about it, we're relatively new on the planet, and we're trying to find our way. And we're not very efficient, and we're kind of messy, and we kind of tromp around over and-and step-and get in the way of things.

So the thinking now is taking more of a systems a-approach to the way we address environmental protection. And you think of the simple things that we've done, you know. For example, the-the guy that first invented Velcro. Well, if you look at that story, it's

00:30:33 - 2323 about looking at nettles on plants, and, you know how they would hook on your sock. Well, this guy said, well, if I could duplicate that as a product, wow, what an idea. So there's all kinds of ideas out there of looking at-at the way that nature produces its goods and services, and can we then begin to try to replicate those systems in our society. Now that's the job for-for Alexander and Ethan, and-and your daughters and others to figure out in the future. But those are the kinds of things we can start thinking about and, you know, I'm very positive about that. And that'll create a whole new economy about

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how we provide goods and services. So the-so the-for the public to start looking at that, there's things people can do. I mean we go back to when people first started taking their blue bins out to the corner. We started recycling, there was a consciousness there, something I can do, okay?

Well, now we're at the point where you can do things-that, but you can also be smart about when you purchase a new automobile, thinking about buying a low-lower emitting cleaner car. When I produce-or purchase my electricity

00:31:48 - 2323 for my house, do I have an option on renewable, you know, purchasing a renewables option. Here in Austin we have the GreenChoice Program, and so you can subscribe to that. You have choices in the grocery store in terms of buying organic produce. It's-in fact, it's the fastest growing segment of the grocery industry is organic food products. You have important choices in housing. There are now systems out there that will evaluate energy efficient homes. The Energy Star programs are energy efficient, energy efficient appliances. Now I think the government has a strong role and say we want to set

00:32:33 - 2323 a standard so that if you're going to build a house it needs to be this level of efficiency, or this level of water consumption. I think those are good signals that government can send and let the market figure out products to get there. And so it-the whole idea about sustainable consumption and production is looking at our systems-you know, our delivery systems of services and how we can be more efficient promoting more options for transportation. I used to be in a-I used to be a single occupant vehicle-SOV. And Denise and I used to carpool together through the agency. We actually met at the agency,

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and-and were married. And then after she became pregnant-became a stay-at-home mom, I lost my carpool buddy. So I tried a vanpool system, and I started using that. And I found that it actually increased my, you know, options for transportation. I could, you know, drive if I had to one day, I could take public transportation, and it opened up a whole new world to being able to get around the community in a different way, and just doing things-seeing things differently. So I think that having that diversity is really

00:33:52 - 2323 good in terms of your options as a consumer.

The other thing I will just mention that's happening as well that it's kind of an interesting phenomenon whereby we have now markets that are driving environmental issues beyond what government has been able to do. For example, in the European Union there has been legislation planned that says that certain materials are going to be banned from-from computers, electronics equipment. It's known as "the Ross Directive." The WEEE [Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment] and the Ross Directive. And there's this whole emphasis on extended producer responsibility. So that if you're producing a good,

00:34:36 - 2323 that you're at-ultimately responsible for the end of life for that product, whether it be a car, or a refrigerator, or a stove, or whatever. And so you're seeing now that the-those types of legislation that's being put in are driving the market whereby say a Dell computer is going to build to one global standard for their computers. And so they're going to build to that European standard globally. And so that's going to-that improves the product, but it's also interesting because it's tied to an economic battle that's going on as well as because the European Union wants to strengthen their economy. At the same

00:35:18 - 2323 time, you have China that also is putting these same kinds of-of-of drivers in to protect their interests in the future. But the interesting thing is that as they put these kinds of things in place, it's driving products that are being made in the United States or elsewhere to a higher environmental standard. The government could have never done that in the United States at this point. I don't see it happening. So because now we're in a global environment, you have something that happens in the U.K. is now driving U.S.

00:35:56 - 2323 companies to build products, because they want to build s-and sell those products in those markets. So I think it's going to be interesting to watch those trends over time as-as-as you have regulatory functions of government, but you also have these markets that can be used to help drive environmental performance.

And you're also seeing more sectors, or more areas like accounting becoming greener, and looking at the way their ledgers and spreadsheets are handled in terms of how they handle internal costs for

00:36:35 - 2323 environment. Things like the environment have not really been part of the, you know, accounting system, and so, you know, accountants need to be trained about how do you factor in the full cost of environment into their operations through their whole accounting practices. Right now it's an externalized cost. It's just sort of like not even incorporated into the-the cost of doing business.

And so, you know, we're trying to deal with this on all levels, and across society, and trying to get that ki-that kind of thinking in-in-whether you're a-attorney or a-an accountant. If you're a doctor, think about your

00:37:21 - 2323 hospital and how-what environmental impacts does your hospital have on the-on the environment, how you better manage the way you go about the business of environment within your daily operation. So we're trying to-to kind of mainstream the thinking so that-that it becomes just a common place. Kind of like our kids now where things like recycling or seatbelts, they don't even think twice about it. It's already just there. And so if we can get the environment to the same point then you've got all sectors of society that at least have environmental awareness and thinking in the way they go about their

00:38:00 - 2323 jobs and how they live and their lifestyle. And things like ecotourism are very popular now.

And people want to do things that have some kind of social value to them, and there's increasing, I think, awareness and sort of this spirituality about the way we go about our lives, and I think that the environment and stewardship sustainability is a-is a core ethic that all human beings want as part of their daily way they go about things. And so I think spirituality is another component of this that we haven't even touched on, but it's something to think about in terms of why we're here, what we're-what are we trying

00:38:52 - 2323 to accomplish as individuals and as a community. And so it's been a great twenty years to be here in Texas.

We're now relocating to the Northwest, which is doing a lot of progressive things. And the neat thing about things now, because we are so connected electronically is that a really good idea in Olympia, Washington can be transmitted at the speed of light to Austin, Texas. And so we-there's a lot more sharing of information going on. And so we can work really together more effectively, I think because I always make the argument in the wor-the field that I've been working in, is that there's not

00:39:39 - 2323 enough of us to go around and so we-we need to continue to work together and bring together-we're really building a network. We're building a-a community of people that are interested in working on this, whether they work in industry or government, or the nonprofit sector because the really the new model in the future is-is all these groups working together, and you're going to get a lot better result. And you may not agree on stuff all the time but, you know, it tends to point you in the right direction. And I found

00:40:09 - 2323 that the pollution prevention maste-waste minimization and sustainability really kind of bring people together, and people feel empowered that they can do things in a productive way about, you know, environmental protection. So, you know, I'm-I'm optimistic about the future, and-and I think...

DT: Let's talk a little bit about the future. I guess part of the network is Alexander, Ethan, and you talk about how difficult it is and how slow it's been to change people's minds. And maybe the easier minds to change will be young people. What would you tell someone of their generation when they grow up, what are the lessons that you've learned that may apply well in their lives?

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KZ: Well, I would say study hard, and learn the foundations, learn about science, learn about the natural environment, be connected, you know. A lot of kids don't go out-get to go out and play in the dirt, you know, and just have some time out in-out in nature. So it's important to-to get outdoors, be outside, observe and listen. And I think that increasing our curriculum within the schools is important. And the way we go about teaching kids about science, I think we can improve that. But one of the things that might be useful is to-to learn from-from fables. If you go back and look at the way we used to teach our kids was based on stories and fables, and how we-and there's always a story there. Even though-there was a message. And so, you know, maybe our education system looking at ways to get the message across can be done differently than maybe the

00:42:10 - 2323 ways-you know, traditional ways we're approaching education sometimes.

DT: Like the Lorax?

00:42:15 - 2323 KZ: Like the Lorax, for example. That's a good example that people could relate to in a story form, and there's a message there, and that stays with you. You know, you-you read that book twenty years ago and you still remember the Lorax, right? And so I think that kids should think about-and I'm very concerned about the kids because of the focus on consumption so much by industry and others that the environmental message gets pushed to the side sometimes-a lot really right now. And so I'm very concerned that these kids aren't getting a message about sustainable consumption and production. So far

00:43:03 - 2323 I think the challenge is to think about for the kids out there is if you're going to design a campaign, public education campaign on how to make sustainability cool, how would you do that? So the challenge is can you make sustainability cool in a way that kids jump on board and made it-want to make it happen so that the environment is as cool as having a new iPod or the latest digital phone, or if you're going to buy that digital phone, that it's a green phone. So, you know be creative, and think of ways-different ways to do things. I'm-I've been amazed by just watching our kids grow up, and they-they'll take something a lit-a cell phone or something else and come up with a completely new use that really wasn't envisioned. So, you know, that creativity is out there, and these-these

00:44:00 - 2323 kids are smart. They're going to figure it out. The only-the concern I have maybe is that, you know, I've been working on this for twenty years, and-and it's-we're still working on it, and by the time Alexander and Ethan get to my age they'll still be working on these issues. So I'm-I'm hopeful though, and-but the pace does seem to be a bit slow, and I'm-I'm in-a bit impatient because, you know, I got out of school twenty years ago with a degree at c-in Environmental Management, and I feel like we're just starting now to scratch the surface on that. We're still-still learning, and-and still-

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and there's a lot to be done out there that but so, you know, study hard, learn the periodic table, elm-learn the basic elements of science, and-and about other cultures, and respect other people. And that's kind of the-kind of the name of the game. Otherwise, everything will take care of itself, I think.

DT: Well, thanks. I appreciate your time.

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KZ: Well, thanks for the opportunity. I think it's a great project what you're doing, and keep up the good work. And we'll talk to you soon.

DT: Happy trails.