Alice Beckenbach Interview, Part 1 of 2

  • Douglas Forbes: December 14, yes it's working. Okay, how about we start with a description of what if someone asked you what Dr. Moore's methods were?How would you go about telling them?. Beckenbach: Well, I don't think I would want to talk about that because I haven't been exposed to his methods. I knew him as a person, but notas an expositor. You know, I've seen his movies and all. Forbes: Right, I don't think they were reflective of what he was doing, really. Okay, so then like in the staff roomor something, I guess he'd never talk about what he taught or anything like that? Beckenbach: No, he wouldn't talk about his methods of eliciting things from his students. I haveheard him talking at his classes, as I would go down the hall. He would talk about things that were rather extraneous sometimes, like the quality of instruction in the Applied Mathematicsdepartment at Texas. He would harangue the class for the entire hour often about such and such a person in the Applied Mathematics department. Forbes: And, uh... Beckenbach: This is what his method has been to me as so far as I have seen. Forbes: Right. And of course, does everyone in the department know about that? Beckenbach: Oh yes. Haven't you been told that before? Forbes: Yeah. But I have been told by some students, not by colleagues. Beckenbach: Oh, the whole University... Forbes: Everyone isaware? Beckenbach: Oh, yes. In fact, uh, the thing became somewhat contagious with a few of his colleagues, but not many. A few of them would talk that way too, but they wouldsoon catch themselves. Forbes: You mean, okay...then there would be several other members of the department that also would be talking about other people? Beckenbach: Ithink that they would more talk about his talking about. I, uh, I would discount what I just said. While it did happen sometimes, it was instigated by him in a reflection ofoccasions. Forbes: Okay, then he wouldn't have any friends, then, if...in the department, if he did that sort of thing. Beckenbach: Well, I'd say that the department,uh, surprisingly feared him. Forbes: In what way? Beckenbach: Well, if you would advocate something that he didn't like, you would be subject to ridicule in the wholecommunity. Forbes: So, would he do this to the people's faces, too, say, at a staff meeting or something like this? Beckenbach: No, he, I'm afraid I'd have to say that hetalked behind people's backs rather than to their faces. Forbes: So he just bemoaned... Beckenbach: I would say that, yes. Forbes: How about on issues that affected himpersonally in a staff meeting? Beckenbach: Like what? Forbes: Well, like say, if they were voting on an issue where he had very strong feelings, were they... Beckenbach: Hewould see to it that something was not voted on until he carried the day. As a matter of fact, there was not very much of a staff, uh, government. There would be a chairman of thedepartment. Now you know I wasn't there but three years, and I was an assistant, not an associate professor, and I was not part of the governing body of the department. Forbes: He was not chairman? Beckenbach: No. I believe that when I first got there, perhaps Batchelder was chairman, or he had been shortly before that. Forbes: Whatyear was that? Beckenbach: I imagine he was chairman at about 1942 or so, for a brief period. But I got there in '42 and I think he had just finished and Ettlinger was chairman, andthe only three who had any vote were Ettlinger, Moore, and Vandiver. And Moore controlled Ettlinger's vote, so that Moore ran the department. Forbes: So then, Vandiver just ?Beckenbach: Uh hum [affirmative]. Forbes: Okay, what sort of arguments would he give for his positions or did he just never bother? Beckenbach: He would use the usualrhetorical devices, ridicule more than anything else, browbeating, the realization that if you went against him you would know about it by the next period of time. This is the way thingsseemed to me. See, I wasn't part of it even though I was there for three years. Forbes: Yeah, that's what I want to get more at because I don't think his students knewprobably the half, you know, of what Moore's relationship was to the staff. The part that interests us is, if there is anything useful in it, does it have all these bad connotations, orwhat is useful in it, what can we salvage from it? Talking about people behind their backs is not the useful part in anybody's method. Beckenbach: Well, as I see it, the usefulnessof Professor Moore is his genius for himself, you know, and his ability to inspire the small number of people who went along and along with him until they were producing extremely goodmathematics. The usefulness of a man like this is in pulling out from the national resource of human ability, the few truly exceptional people. Forbes: But, um, the way he did that- is there any relationship to that and his behavior, say, or his political or social ruse or anything like that. I mean, is that a necessary... Beckenbach: Well, it's not necessary,but he played into this objective in all his University work it seemed to me. He talked down the Applied Math department there, so that, in my estimation, the best students would come tothe Pure Math department. So he would be able to get for himself, so that he could cull out just the very cream. You know up till the time after he retired, several years after hewas forced to retire, he was still teaching a full load of eighteen hours. He would have a class of freshman and so on up, until by the time he had taught a person for six years, if therewere such a person, that could go along with Professor Moore's mathematics, then Moore had produced a person who was extremely valuable to the nation. A single person, maybe oneperson out of five hundred or something that he has been exposed to. Forbes: Okay, so in other words, with those people he culled out as exceptional people did very well, but the otherpeople got almost nothing then? Beckenbach: That, I think, you should investigate, I think that should be investigated. What about the graduate students who didn't getPh.D.'s, what about the so on down the line, the freshman who, because they were overly pushed and overly ridiculed and everything, how many personalities were crushed? This is what Iwould like to know. Forbes: We would too. Do you have any, do you know of any instances or specific things you can recall? Beckenbach: I, oh I knew one or two graduate students whowere pretty badly injured in their psyche. But more particularly, I know faculty members who were hurt by this ruthless, I would call it, behavior that oppresses. [10 minutes] You mentionedProfessor Dodd that Professor Wilder, you told me, went there to work with. Uh, I don't know the rest of the story that you didn't tell me, but I have a notion that Moore learned, by hisown keen observation, that Wilder was an exceptional person, and so he stole Wilder from Dodd, I guess. I'm only speculating, but this is what I guess. I know that Professor Mooreutterly crushed Dodd because Dodd was not a great intellect. He was a good statistician, but he was not that great an intellect and he was a gentle person and he could do nothing...Forbes: But it was all personal, because Moore would have known very little about Statistics... Beckenbach: He could low-rate anything he wanted to low-rate. ProfessorBatchelder was a Birkhoff Ph.D., and he was, it seemed to me, the most crushed candidate and individual. It seems to me he could do no research because of this ridicule riding above himall the time. Forbes: It's hard to believe that one man could literally be such a dictator. I mean, when he can't evaluate their particular research anyway... Beckenbach: I think thatthis is why R.H. Bing wanted you to come talk with me, because I was there for a short time and I was not going to be pushed around... Forbes: Well, okay, this is the other thing. In otherwords, if people came...it seems remarkable that out of that many, many, many years that no one just lowered the boom for this sort of thing. But then people that might have loweredthe boom on him, just chose to go elsewhere and be productive about... Beckenbach: Some people chose to go elsewhere. Ultimately, one of the Moore students that was teaching there...Forbes: Diaz? Beckenbach: No...Turn it off a minute now I'm thinking. Forbes: Okay. [Tape stops and restarts] Beckenbach: He went East, same name as the guy in Colorado.Forbes: Burgess? Beckenbach: Burton Jones! Burton Jones.... He went east Forbes:He's at Riverside. Beckenbach:and then he came back to Riverside. Um, Moore didn'tlet him teach topology because, you know, Moore wanted to teach it himself. There was not room but one there. He stood up a little bit and finally left. Luben, on the otherhand, was another crushed person. Forbes: Okay, Luben I have written to. Beckenbach: You might not hear from Luben, he might not have enough strength left in him.Forbes: Well, I'll just give you a call if...The questionnaire I would hope was meant to be you know, neither positive or negative. I just, he hasn't had time to respond yet. I savedthe Texas mailings till the last because I was a little afraid... Beckenbach: Yes...you were afraid that Moore would get into them and then he would write everybody to not answer orsomething... Forbes: Well, you know, I just didn't want to take the chance. That's off the tape, obviously, you know I'm not going to transcribe that. Beckenbach: Incidentally,you know most of my reactions to Professor Moore tend to be negative because, it isn't because I have a negative reaction to him entirely, but it is that I see a number of things about him thatare destructive. Along with what I've been pointing out to you, that the service that he does, of a positive sort, is tremendous. Forbes: You're darn right. The same twopoints have been raised by ?? cream of the crop, even terms like mental instabilities. So in other words, almost to stay in the department in Texas, you had to either be in PureMathematics, his brand of Pure Mathematics, or not be productive? Beckenbach: That's almost true. Ettlinger produced, not his kind of stuff, you know, but he didn't produce a greatdeal. Forbes: Well, would Dr. Moore leave the journals closed to them or any action like that, or was it all personal comments? Beckenbach: Oh, he wouldn't tell a person not to dohis research for goodness sakes. It's just that they were stifled. Some people, take Vandiver for instance, Vandiver was very productive. Vandiver was independent of Mooreutterly. He went his own way. Moore did some cruel things to the Vandivers, to Mr. and Mrs. Vandiver, and to Ettlinger and his wife, and more particularly, to the Dodds.Forbes: How would he affect the wives? I mean, certainly on social occasions he would hold his tongue? Beckenbach: I think that what I mean there more is that he hurt the wivesthrough hurting the husbands. That he did anything specifically, directly against a wife, I didn't really, I don't know any instance of that sort, and I doubt that there would be.Forbes: Was the Dean aware of what was going on? Beckenbach: You know, the administration was thoroughly aware of all of this. I'll tell you one story that illustrates thething. When I was leaving Texas, I had an offer from UCLA and I've been there ever since. I had been at Texas going on then for three years and I rather wanted to get away. The climatewas quite warm and I don't enjoy being in a divisive kind of atmosphere. So when I got the offer out here, I guess I accepted it. But anyway, Vandiver was working on Texas notallowing me to leave in some way or another. Vandiver said that I had been the White Hope of his side of the thing. He was in Pure Math. Vandiver said that if I left, he wouldleave at the same time. So you would think there was something of an impasse there because Vandiver, along with Moore, was a member of the National Academy and that's all the reputationthe University really had in Mathematics. The compromise was that Vandiver did leave the Pure Math department. Vandiver, the purest of mathematicians, became a member of the AppliedMath department upon my leaving. Vandiver had wanted me to stay and be chairman of the department. He said if there was anybody who could handle Moore, it was me. Forbes: Sohe just switched over to the Applied Math department for his personal sanity? Beckenbach: And to continue the reason for telling you this. You asked if the administration knew. WhenI left I wrote a, quite a long letter to, President Painter telling him of the vituperation that was going on relative to the Applied Math department. And I said that this seemed to me tobe not wholesome considering society as a whole and I thought it should be stopped and the best way to do it would be to consolidate the two departments. So there was a Blue Ribboncommittee appointed at Texas. I've been told, especially by Robert Greenwood, whom you might well consult regarding the history of things there because he was a rather young person in theApplied Math...well, they appointed this committee with members from Applied Math and Pure Math and the rest of the University. Ettlinger was a member, I know, and Cooper, I think was, fromApplied Math. But, old Professor Calhoun, who had been acting president of the university sometimes was chairman of the committee to investigate putting the two departmentstogether. And finally the vote was split three to three for putting together and leaving apart, and Calhoun, I'm told, cast the deciding vote, namely that as long as Professor Moore wasthere, it didn't matter. You could call them one department if you wanted to, but it wouldn't be. So you see that the whole university was keenly aware... Forbes: ...For thatlong period of time? Because that would be thirty years... Beckenbach: Yes, oh, yes. But don't let me give you the impression that this was totally bad for the university. Becauseeven if you're in another department and you see greatness, no matter how stinky, how bad it is, when you see greatness along beside you, you're, if you've got some goodness and some greatnessin you yourself, you probably do even better. And the University of Texas did do very well in many subjects. Biology, for instance... [20 minutes] Forbes: And you think it wassomehow related to having a strong... Beckenbach: Look, I'm largely speculating as I talk to you anyway. I say that this kind of a presence would tend to help to generate.Forbes: Well, did he... what were his feelings on things like Physics then, or Chemistry? Beckenbach: I can't speak to that. Forbes: Did he ever talk about education?Beckenbach: Do you mean the education department? Forbes: Yeah, education school, in the classroom. Beckenbach: Well, surely he wouldn't. I would say that's pretty muchbeneath him even to mention. But, I mean, if he said anything, it would be with the greatest of depredation. Forbes: How about the...did he... I'm just bringing up things now that hewould talk about in the classroom that I know of to see if he did it also in the staff room. Uh, University of Chicago and what happened to that after the death of E. H. Moore - did heever carry on? Beckenbach: About the department at Chicago deteriorating? No, I don't think so. He Regarded E.H. Moore, of course, most highly, he revered him as he did only afew like him and Halstead. Forbes: He revered Halstead, did he? Beckenbach: Well, yes. Forbes: In the same light as E.H. Moore? Beckenbach: Oh, no. Halsteadwas a great teacher, but not as great a mathematician. I think he thought Halstead was a fine teacher..uh...a fine mathematician. I'm not quite sure there. It was as a teacher thathe... Why? Have you a different.... Forbes: No, I was just sort of curious because all I know is that he took essentially upper reading courses. Beckenbach: He regarded them very, veryhighly and I don't know that he considered that Halstead had contributed specific results very much. But he thought he was a fine intellect. Forbes: What about the other side of hislife? Did he know anything about, I mean, did he ever talk about art or literature or music, music I guess, huh? Beckenbach: I don't believe very much. He was not entirelyunread. I think he apparently had opinions. He was much more opinionated in sociological questions, you know. Forbes: Did he raise those to the other colleagues too?Beckenbach: Constantly. Uh, I used to walk with him and we would talk of many things. We'd walk an hour or two around campus. Many things were such trivia as how to geta good buy in grapefruit, or something like that. But, more of the time when he really got excited about something, you'd be talking about The New Deal, and Roosevelt, these things thathe was really violently against. Forbes: OK, uh, how would I say...the race issue, did he... Beckenbach: The race issue was, to me, the ugliest part of him. Forbes: Iguess what I'm getting at...trying to ascertain, was whether he really believed what he said in the classroom or not. But, he really did believe the racist views he said in the classroom?Beckenbach: Yes. Forbes: Ok, and uh... Beckenbach: He believed...Ok, when you say "believed," I don't know what made him click. I always figured that he must have been avery insecure person. He was such a bully that it's difficult to think that he didn't have a very bad psychological thing behind it. Forbes: I guess by those questions what Iwant to ascertain is sometimes you can just put a fighting point to get somebody's dander up and to get them going, issue a challenge, if you like, in the classroom but you don't necessarilybelieve it. You know, just say something to make someone fighting mad. Beckenbach: Oh, of course, yes, yes. Forbes: Now if he said it to you, he obviously... Beckenbach: Yes, yes, he said it to me in utter privacy and of course, if you're teaching history, or a social course in high school, you'll say something that rouses your students. But why would youwant to do that in a math class regarding the black race, for instance? He told me stories like this, you've probably heard. He, in Chicago once, he had a black student in his classand he'd say "my name is Moore. Robert Lee Moore." And that man was not in his class the next day. Or he would say, I forget the context here, but, he brought a pistol to class withhim and laid it on the table to let certain black people know who was boss. He also didn't like the Jewish race. He said, "well, Ettlinger..." He can tolerate Ettlinger, he can getalong with Ettlinger. He'd push Ettlinger around, is what he did. Ettlinger's a huge person, but Moore did have him cow down. And so, as I hinted earlier, Ettlinger would votewith Moore. Forbes: But what about, say, Moise. Did he, now what did he, how did he get around that issue? Beckenbach: That would be a good question. The onlyanswer I would speculate about that was that Moise was a very young person when he was there. As of now, I don't think Moore could push Moise a bit. Moise is quite a strongintellect himself. Forbes: I just don't believe he couldn't push him, even when he was young. Beckenbach: See, I don't know. Forbes: I mean, could he maintain his anti-Semiticbeliefs in the face of such evidence? Beckenbach: Is Moise Jewish? [Forbes acknowledges] You mean that. I don't know... Forbes: No, he is. And so how could Moore maintain...Beckenbach: I happen to know that Ettlinger's Jewish. Believe me, I ordinarily, I can see if a person's black, of course, but if a person is Jewish or not, I am not aware.You're mentioning Moise, I wasn't thinking of.... Forbes: Oh, because he baited him in class. That's why I'm ... Beckenbach: Oh, he did bait him? This was before mytime there. Forbes: Just. Beckenbach: Just. That's right. Forbes: But I was wondering if he was baiting him to get him fighting mad or if he was baiting him for what hebelieved, and how could he maintain those sorts of beliefs, you know? Beckenbach: Well I don't see any reason for doing it at all. I don't think that he could make Moise do bettermathematics. I mean I'm not going to enjoy having a talk with you here because I'm saying negative things, you know? I don't like this, I'm a Pollyanna. Forbes: Yeah, Iappreciate what you...Professor Bing also did not like to bring up some of the negative aspects except that they put some other things in balance. That's why I say I'm rather confused, youknow, what we're after now, but I think there's a whole world of difference between ways of finding creative people and recognizing your own error and the personality of the person who didthat. Beckenbach: I just can't reconcile what you're saying about his baiting Moise on a racial ground. Now, I can see his pedagogical thing with putting his axioms on theboard and saying, "Each one of you, do your own proof. Don't go to the literature, don't go to each other, this is your job." Forbes: Can you see that today? Beckenbach: Oh,if you had me to teach. You put a carrot up to me and I'll... I would have, if I could have stomached him, I would have been a star Moore student, I think. Forbes: OK, but now we'regetting to some of the methods that have nothing to do with him except that he practiced them. Beckenbach: If he had started talking about the people in the Applied Math department orJews, or Negroes, or something, this would have disturbed me. And I think this is probably why I left Texas primarily, though I've never tried to analyze myself about it, but that kind ofa contentious, uh, environment that he insists on... Forbes: But he, like say in the staff room, he didn't raise mathematical questions, I mean he didn't present mathematics as a challengeto his colleagues the way that he did to his students? Beckenbach: Oh, no. No, he didn't try to impose his mathematics on me at all. As I said, we used to walk and talk atgreat length, but not about mathematics. Forbes: But I mean, OK, what would prevent him from challenging his colleagues mathematically. I mean, saying, "Here are some interestingproblems, can anybody solve them?" For example, in our staff room last year, if somebody had good problem, we'd all work on it. Beckenbach: Yes, well, I think I know theanswer to that. It goes along with Moore's insecurities. Forbes: Somebody else might get the answer? Beckenbach: Yeah, Moore would want himself or his students to get theanswers. I don't think he was about to challenge his peers with mathematics problems. Doug Forbes: Well then, what was his approach to say, research, he didn't see that as achallenge, or was he all alone in his field really? [30 minutes] Beckenbach: I think he wanted to stay alone. I don't think he was interested in anybody else...he was not interestedin my research that I know of. Forbes: Never asked anything? Beckenbach: No, but that's not so surprising. Most of us mathematicians are not so communicative as you mightthink. There are some mathematicians in the world that sometimes I'll get together with and I'll have a ball of an evening just talking shop because we work on similar things, but I don'tparticularly like to go to colloquial. If somebody's going to talk probability or something, because if I want to learn something of that business, I can go to the literature and get itfaster anyway. Many of us are not that gregarious. Forbes: Yeah, what I guess I meant was to have some understanding of what a small department like Texas was in those days, to havesome understanding of what other people were working on, and were mutually encouraging. Beckenbach: I don't think there was anything of that there. Moore lived within himselfmathematically and within his students. Well, you see, he was so intensely directed toward getting something out of the few select ones that he put all of his emotional energy intothat. And he had no room for his colleagues and he has never had any respect or admiration for mathematics away from his own sort. The limiting processes of mathematical analysisare not of interest to him. Forbes: Okay, um, now I wish you had access to the Wilder articles, but I would also like to get your reaction to some of the positive parts. Inother words, aside from the person, the reactions to the value of a method where the students are not given any source, given a few definitions, or a few definitions that aren't really defined,a few vague things, and then assigned problems to do, and left on their own. Beckenbach: Well, I don't think that too many students would rise to the bait. I Indicated that Ithink I would, even in today's society. It does seem to me that it must be a very inefficient way of getting to results, but you must remember here that the point here is not to get to anunderstanding of a body of results. It's to make the student competent to work on his own, to stand on his own feet. Forbes: Do you think that Dr. Moore would agree that hewasn't teaching mathematics, that he was teaching confidence for the really good students and selecting brilliant potential? Beckenbach: Well, he was teaching confidence only in that thisis what a person has to have to produce. Forbes: Right. Beckenbach: Now what he was really teaching was Moore point set topology I think. He was going to have disciples of hisown. Forbes: Some of these disciples say they knew absolutely nothing when they graduated. Beckenbach: Well I'm sure that I haven't heard this said before, but I do know that thisis pretty close to true, that when people get away from here, they do abandon his axiomatic approach, don't they? Forbes:Well, the people I've talked to have, but Beckenbach:But, Moore topologyis a bit passé and obsolete now, but that's saying it a little too strong. It feels like this, that are developing so rapidly, you know that topology is quite a young thing; styleschange. This isn't to say too much against his approach, it's just it was one phase that he went through. Forbes: Well, and he wouldn't change with the times anyway.Beckenbach: He wouldn't change, but the times do change. Forbes: How about Mrs. Moore She's been raised on a couple of occasions too. Was she on the "in" in all of itor... Beckenbach: I think that she backed him, she was loyal and all. She probably was embarrassed sometimes, but it never showed. I think that there was a loyalty between them, Idon't know if he thought much of her or anything, but she was Mrs. Moore, you know. The southern tradition...and. incidentally, when you talk about the Negro question there or the Jewishone there, you have to look at these things in the context of the time. Forbes: It was the turn of the century. Beckenbach: Yes. I don't know that he has changed any, but...Forbes: The other thing...I guess what I want is your viewpoint on maybe some of the things that she did. What would be your impression - that he instigated it, or that she did it onher own? I guess the question I have, I'd like almost to know for myself whether she was also a part of his techniques. Beckenbach: I don't think she originated them very likely,but I got an impression from some of the stories that some of the other wives told, that if he precipitated the social situation that she perhaps was amused and delighted that the otherperson and his wife were put in their place. But I wouldn't put too much... Forbes: No, I guess what I'm saying is that on occasion she might encourage a student, positivereinforcement. Beckenbach: Oh, one of his students? I didn't know that you were talking about this. Not that I know of. I don't know anything about this. Forbes: Because that's going to great lengths to have your wife following your student's wife and doing a little encouraging. Beckenbach: Yeah, I believe that I have heard suchstories while I was there that Mrs. Moore would phone to a student's wife to, maybe not take him out so often, or, Forbes:keep the kids quiet, or Beckenbach:Yes, I heard these stories, but thisis second-hand to me, so I'm not adding anything for you. Forbes: Right, I've also heard from the person that got a phone call. But my question is, it's unresolved whether Dr. Mooreeven knew of these. Would your opinion be that he did know of her role... Beckenbach: You should not count me in on this conversation at all because, as I said, anything I heard therethat she had made such phone calls I would guess that he instigated her to do it. Forbes: That's what other people's guess is. I just thought that you might know her in a sociallymore mature basis than the students would. Beckenbach: We visited in their home, walked in their lovely rose garden and all and my guess is that she was more subservient than...andthat she would have done it against his knowledge, oh I wouldn't believe that's quite believable. Forbes: Just as a curiosity, one of the people remarked that he doubted that Mrs. Moorehad ever called him anything but Dr. Moore. So that made me believe that he did know about everything, the phone calls... Beckenbach: Well, she was not quite that fearful of him Ithink. But I think she did call him Dr. Moore. Forbes: Okay, how about the, like you say he sort of took for himself the best graduate students that Texas had around. Howabout the ones that he didn't take? Would he challenge them too? For example, you say he sort of badgered the staff. Would he badger any other graduate students that weren't his own, orwere they pretty much immune to... Beckenbach: Uh, I didn't have any contact with any such students. Forbes: Okay, I guess what I'm trying to assess is his overall influence in thedepartment. Okay, if someone, or is there room at a modern university, a large- sized university today, for someone with such deviant behavior, even, okay, just take away personalbehavior, but deviant classroom behavior? Beckenbach: I don't think it's excusable for anybody, in any age, to occupy a class period haranguing another department or another individual oranother belief, absolutely not. But that there should be an exceptional person, a person who, well for instance, a large department can afford to have one or two very poor teachers whoare extraordinary research people. I rather favor having exceptional people, I would like to have a cantankerous person or two, such as Moore, in a department. Some constraints asregards disruption and occupying too much time, but exceptional behavior, I think, is good. It's good in that it makes you think about whether or not there's something there. And if youdecide that it's bad, well, then, you've at least, by process of elimination, pointed out to yourself what's good. Forbes: Okay, but, another part that just occurred to me now, isthat he readily identified great potential, but maybe turned off other great potential too. Beckenbach: I would bet on it. I would bet that the personalities and the intellect thathe is, stifled and ruined our legion. As I indicated, his own department, in my evaluation looking at it, was hugely hurt by it, tragically hurt. Families were destroyed.Forbes: Did he, was he aware of this, or just impervious to it? Beckenbach: He must have been aware. Forbes: And just... Beckenbach: Well, they were little people, what difference did it make, I would say? The hurt that he inflicted on the Dodds, for instance, issomething nobody should do to anybody in his whole life. [40 minutes] Forbes: Okay, getting back to some of the more positive things, many of the people I've talked to said they really rose to the bait, as you called it,the carrot, they really rose to that challenge. How would you go about, or how do you incorporate that challenge, or how would you go about offering that to students today? I mean,don't call it The R.L. Moore Method, just call it the Challenge Method, or something like that. Beckenbach: Oh, I'd sound too corny to answer the question. I believe in presenting mathematics as a beautiful thing and leaving enough ends forthe...