Pat Cuney oral history - Pat Cuney oral history

Q: All right. So do you just want to introduce yourself to it?

A: Sure. Okay. So I’m Pat Cuney, and I’m 68 right now in 19-- 2017. I don’t know

what year it is. And we’re going to talk about the late ’60s and early ’70s in

my life. In those periods, I was 18, 19. I was 20 in 1970.

Q: Perfect. Is there anything in particular you wanted to start with or just kind of give

an idea of what was going on at the time? A: Well, we’re talking about activism.

Q: Yes. A: So I think I’ve always been an activist.

I was an activist in high school. I was -- well, you know, I ran for vice president of my sixth-grade

class. I mean, I (inaudible). (laughs) Q: Sixth grade? Wow.

A: So we can go back that far. Q: Really, always.

A: You know, it’s -- [durable?]. Anyway, so, yeah, in fact, you know, one of the things

I was thinking about that I didn’t even mention, I ran for vice president of the student

body and was in a run-off in 1972. Yeah. Q: And this was in high school?

A: At UT. Q: Oh, at UT.

A: Yeah, so I always had an interest in political activity of one sort or another, so just a

side bit of -- Q: Yeah.

A: -- you know, and the Texan would be full of that, because --

Q: Yeah. Okay, so I’ll look at that. A: Yeah. Anyway, so I had a really good friend

who once described me as having -- she -- the issue was, “Can you find two words to describe

somebody?” and the words that she had for me were “courage and passion.”

Q: Two good to have as an activist. A: Well, that’s what makes you an activist

-- Q: Yeah. (laughter)

A: -- makes you an activist, I think. Oh, I’m sorry. So --

Q: Oh, no, it’s totally fine. A: -- so part of my story at this point would

be that 20 years ago I had a stroke. It’s hard for me to talk about stuff that’s important

to me without having tears. Q: No, it’s totally understandable.

A: But [you’d be?] okay with that. I mean, it’s like -- I’m okay with it. I just

notice that, “Oh, where did those come from? Oh, yeah, okay, I’m talking about something

I have a passion about. Okay.” Q: See? It’s part of your description.

A: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah, it’s part of who I am, although I think

it’s been more (inaudible) since after the stroke. I’m told that I used to do it, too,

before I had the stroke, so I have tears, and I’m okay with it. But, anyway, so I

just -- we were talking about motivation the other day, and I have to say that I think

my motivation for doing almost anything is that I don’t like something that is going

on in front of me, and therefore I move to change it, so -- and whatever that requires

seems to be okay with me. (laughs) So I’ve been a community activist most of my life.

I’m a community organizer, so usually I am operating out of injustice I feel is going

on in front of me. So I, invariably, am happy to move to change the community to do that,

and so, through my life, I have been -- I worked with (inaudible), the Economy Furniture

Strike story, but, you know, I -- beyond the ’60s and the ’70s I also worked in the

student government (inaudible) with a student senator. I set up the City and County Lobby

Committee originally, and I’ve been the chair of it -- I was the chair of it twice

because I was there for so long. (laughs) But, no, I mean, I organized the student community

to get what we wanted from the city council and county commissioners and stuff like that,

and that is why UT is still one chunk as opposed to having had a giant, major thoroughfare

put through on 26th Street, because of the lobby committee I created, and it organized

a thing called SUN, which was Saving the University (inaudible). So my period at UT was a lengthy

one. (laughs) Q: Very influential.

A: But it started -- well, I don’t know about that, but it started in 1967 when I

came to UT. But even before I got to UT, I was high school down the street at the -- at

Austin High School, which was then on the Rio Grande Campus where ACC is now. And so,

from the time were -- I don’t know -- in 10th grade, at some point in 10th grade, 11th

grade, we started going down to the university, my friends. My close friends and I did. So

we met people down there who had an impact on us because we were, what, 15 and 16, and

they were 20, 21, 22. So they had a lot of influence on us. Anyway, I was not -- my friends

and I were not the only ones who were trekking down the countryside to UT. We also had -- there

were other people who went, and two of them that I knew well in my class were women who

were both antiwar activ-- they were both antiwar people, and they were both into the kind of

hippie thing because of the way they dressed and stuff like that. I had not converted.

I was the vice president of the Young Republicans club, but I got involved with The Rag because

they were selling it on campus, and the administration -- the principal, I think, was Mr. Robbins

at the time -- hauled them in there to talk to them about how they shouldn’t be doing

it and how they could get expelled for doing it. But before that happened, I heard that

he was having an issue with it, and I said, “Give them to me. I’m selling them.”

Did I agree with what was in The Rag? No, but --

Q: (laughs) It’s (inaudible). A: -- I just -- I just really felt like they

should be able to sell it because, well, free speech is a major issue with me. And I think

a lot with my generation think -- more often than anything, I think that people responded

to -- we didn’t like being lied to, and [I see this?] generationally. We did not like

being lied to, and we had issues when people would try to shut people down, big issues.

So, anyway, I found myself sitting in the principal’s office with Rachel and Mary

having a discussion about what was -- and he did not understand how it was I had gotten

in there. He was really confused. (laughter) “Pat, what are you doing in here?” And

I’m like, “Well, you know, free speech, free speech,” and so, anyway, we wound up

in this whole thing with the United Civil Liberties Union and filing a Supreme Court

case about selling The Rag on campus. There was an actual Supreme Court case with --

Q: Oh, my goodness. A: -- the US v The Rag, and, actually, Mary

and Rachel and I are the defendants, students in high school.

Q: Oh, gosh. A: I think that’s -- but that was early

on. Q: And that was before you had even written

in it? A: Yes, hardly even read it --

Q: That’s -- A: -- because I just had an issue with that,

because I was raised in a really right-wing community, home. My father was reading the

John Birch Society over my head at the dinner table at night. I mean, I had to hear all

about, you know, (inaudible) call it treason. (laughs) The John Birch Society (inaudible)

that whole story. Q: Oh, yeah, because you had said at the time

-- A: I was the vice president of the Young Republicans.

Q: Yeah, and the school at the time mostly was for the upper --

A: Upper-middle class. Well, the upper class in Austin, [essentially?].

Q: (inaudible). A: We didn’t have that many people in Austin.

We were the only class at the time because they were mainly bankers and lawyers and stuff

like that -- Q: Okay.

A: -- and university professors. Anyway, we didn’t have the super rich. We had -- we

didn’t have dotcoms around then, so we have them now, and we have people here who are

super rich, but they’re not -- they were not there then. So, anyway, that’s how I

got involved with the first round of The Rag, and then I got to be really good friends with

the guy who was the president of the Young Democrats at UT at that time. His name was

John Lefeber, L-E-F-E-B-E-R. And John was from Galveston, and he’d been at UT, and

he was, you know, going about his business of being a law student, I think, at the time.

And he was one of the several people who were pounced on by the university for engaging

in free speech. So you’ll find a lot of the early part of the Left and political activity

at the University of Texas campus started because of the United Free Speech Movement,

the UFM, which was created by the university because they were trying to make people shut

up. Have you -- there’s a book called -- I think about it; I’ll figure out what it

is -- that was written about UT at the time that talks about UT in the way that the regents

really considered it their personal turfdom. They ran it with an iron fist. They thought

they owned it. I mean, they thought they owned the public education. Well, you know, the

students didn’t quite see it that way, and a lot of professors --

Q: Yeah. A: -- didn’t see it that way, which was

a lot of what spawned the activism, was the university’s thinking that somehow it was

in control. Q: Yeah.

A: It was really -- at the time, I didn’t even understand that level of contemplation.

I mean, to me, it was that the university is a public institution, state-owned, belongs

to the citizens. I’m there. Who are they to tell us we cannot speak?

Q: Yeah. We actually just read another one of -- [it’s by Gary?]. It was about sexual

health. I just found it interesting because it really relates to what you’re talking

about now, because I guess now, going to UT, it’s known that we are very liberal. We’re

very open to everything. We can talk about whatever, so my mindset, I think, has been

that it had always been that way, but then not even -- only through reading The Rag did

I discover that they really tried to censor y’all at the time.

A: It was really beyond censoring. They were hauling us in. They had little chats about

whether you’d care to be expelled this month or not. I mean, you know, they were on the

professors that supported us and (inaudible). Yeah, it was really fascism. It was.

Q: Craziness. A: Anyway, so there we are. I’m 17. (laughs)

I wander into this mess, but I was around before SDS. Well, SDS had hit about then,

too, so the people who were involved in the free speech movement -- most of them were

in (inaudible), yes, but John was not. He was with the Young Democrats. But I had kind

of -- because I knew him from my friends dragging me into the social scene, that’s why I knew

him. My biggest political change came with John, who -- well, the first -- one of the

first ones, because one day we were discussing the -- you know, the [lettuce?] and the (inaudible)

boycott by the organization of United Farm Workers. (laughs) And I -- I was a Young Republican

at the time -- said something along the lines of, “Why should we raise the wages of the

workers in the valley? Think of the price of grapefruit [in Maine?].” And he was there.

I was talking to him, and he had a friend with him. And they looked at me, and they

said, “You know what? I don’t ever want to even talk to you again. That is the most

inhumane, obnoxious thing I believe I have ever heard come out of anyone’s mouth at

any time ever. Just go away and never talk to me again.” And I was like, “You’re

kidding.” And they’re -- “No, we’re not kidding. You are really sickening. Go.”

And I was like, “Well, what did I say?” I didn’t understand what I said. So I’m

pretty good about the fact that when something comes up like that I really, like -- I didn’t

even know what we were talking about. I really cannot stand that, so, of course, I had to

go and research the whole thing. Q: Yeah.

A: And then, when I really found out about the living conditions of the valley farm workers

and stuff like that and the kinds of exploitation that was going on and stuff, I could see why

it was really a bad (inaudible) to have said something like that. (laughs)

Q: Just uninformed. A: I was uninformed, and worse than that I

was opening my really stupid mouth and sharing my uninformed opinion in public places. So

it gave me pause, and I began to review the entire matter, and I came to the conclusion

that I was wrong. And that’s good, because I would never have been involved with the

Economy Furniture Strike had I not fully grasped the fact that I was really wrong about the

United Farm Workers. So, after that, I started to participate in a lot of boycotts and stuff

like that and showed up. We ran (inaudible) out of town with our (inaudible) boycotts,

but we were happy to do it because they were bad, and they were exploiting people. I don’t

like -- I have a problem with that exploitation thing. I just have a problem with it. So about

at the same time, circling on another level, the antiwar movement was growing and developing.

When I was in high school -- and I’m really talking now about 1967, ’68. When I was

in high school, I supported the domino theory. I was in, like, the [drama?] club, the National

[Forensic?] League, the debate club, so it was not a problem for me to get involved in

these lengthy, heated discussions with issues and stuff because it was kind of, like, areas

I was interested in, politics. You just cannot grow up with the John Birch Society read at

your dinner table daily for years and not be (inaudible).

Q: And not be [interested?]. A: Well, no, you have a father who’s over

there spouting stuff, and you really want to actually turn around and say, “You know,

that’s crap, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” or

else you get drowned, you know. So, anyway, I wasn’t going to be drowned. So, anyway,

the antiwar movement is going on. Well, I was in favor of the domino theory when I was

in high school, which -- I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. (inaudible) theory

was that if Vietnam fell to Communism, so would Laos and Cambodia, and I thought that

that was true. And the antiwar movement in its early stages was -- disagreed with that,

because (inaudible), “No, this is just Vietnam. It’s just confined to Vietnam.” But I

think what eventually turned my perspective on that was I really ceased -- when I started

finding out a lot about what was going on in the war, which was not being told to us

-- I mean, you cannot imagine this, because if you had been -- your generation has not

sat every friggin’ evening, 5:30 in the afternoon, in front of the television set

in the student union watching caskets come home. No, I mean, they --

Q: (inaudible). A: -- we used to see -- with Dan Rather and

before that with Walter Cronkite, we sat and watched the war in Vietnam in front of our

very eyes. I mean, we watched it. I mean, the picture of that child burning in napalm

when they dropped napalm on her is one of the most famous pictures ever. That was part

of our daily diet, 5:30 in the afternoon. A whole bunch of people would gather in the

student union, upstairs in the union, and there was a big lounge, a big public lounge

with TVs, and we would watch Walter Cronkite, 5:30, CBS. Anyway, so we are watching the

war, and we are being hit with the draft. And around us the guys we know are deciding

that they’re going to join, deciding that they’re leaving, that they’re going to

go live in Canada for the rest of their lives, deciding that they’re going to become gay,

deciding that they’re going to slice off a foot, a hand, or whatever, anything to keep

out of the draft -- Q: Yeah.

A: -- trying to figure out, you know, which way, how they can escape the entire thing,

because it is relentless. It’s like it starts out, and it gets worse and worse and worse

and worse, and pretty soon it’s a lottery. And, you know, it’s like -- it is relentless,

and there is no way out except, of course, if you can buy your way out, which (inaudible).

Q: Was it most of your classmates and stuff that would have to go?

A: Yeah. Sure. I mean, I’m 17 and 18 and 19. I mean --

Q: You’re right in the prime age of -- A: Right there, yeah, I am, and the kids that

are older than I am have either come back from Vietnam themselves, or they also are

caught up in that. I mean, we’re right -- I’m -- in 1968, I’m 18, and that is this -- everybody

around me is dealing with the draft, all the guys are. All the guys are, not the women

but the guys. So the war begins to take a huge -- it’s no longer an intellectual issue

and whether or not there’s a domino theory. We don’t care about the domino theory anymore.

What really begins to happen is we begin to see the terrible cost of the war, how badly

it’s affecting our generation, and also that we’re on the wrong side, really. (laughs)

What we finally begin to figure out is that we should have been supporting Ho Chi Minh

all along, not the French, not the [imperialists in Indochina?], not, you know, the American

rubber companies who wanted the military to go in and support them so they could control

all the rubber for their tires, and (inaudible) bicycles and cars at the time. Probably, if

we’d been as well educated as we are now about consumerism, we would have just sort

of said, “No cars, no bikes, no tires, no rubber.”

Q: Yeah. A: But we didn’t. But we did get really

aware of the fact that there was absolutely no reason for the United States to be involved

in Vietnam to begin with, and if we were going to be there we probably should have been on

the side of the nationalists as opposed -- who were trying to expel colonialists instead

of being on the side of the people who were trying to, you know, maintain a Catholic dictatorship

over the people. So that began to turn, and then we were being asked to give our lives

for it. I don’t think so, so we hit the streets. For myself, I did a lot of organizing

once again, so I -- we had a Gestetner. (laughs) It’s this elderly -- okay, you don’t know

about (inaudible). Okay. Q: Yeah, I don’t (inaudible).

A: (laughs) Okay. When we wanted to make copies of things, we had this machine, and you had

to prepare this legal-sized film that fit over our piece of carbon, sort of, plastic.

So you had to take it and load it into your typewriter and type it with an old typewriter,

not an electric -- not an electric, a regular -- you’ve seen them.

Q: Yeah. Yeah. A: It’s the one in antique stores, right?

Q: Yeah. (inaudible). A: Okay, so we’re punching the pattern of

the keys into this stencil, and then you take the stencil and you put it on the machine.

You must be sure it has the right amount of ink in it, and then you just start cranking

it manually. I probably singlehandedly put out something like 100,000, maybe even a million

flyers myself because it turned out I was one of the few people who (inaudible).

Q: And each flyer you had to do, crank each flyer out?

A: Each flyer out. Q: Wow. Impressive.

A: It did not go through the (inaudible) machine, put them in (inaudible). You had to literally

crank them out. Sometimes, later, we got ones that were electric, but at the time it was

like -- you cranked it out, I mean, just like this, just ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. It was -- the

early Rags even came out that way. (laughs) It was before we got printing involved. For

The Rag, they were doing that, but over the years I probably put out a million flyers,

because I started in ’67, and I didn’t finish until -- (laughs) I think the last

flyer I put out was today. I’m helping to organize the union where I work. Anyway, I’ve

decided I want to expand it as my current “bloom where you’re planted” theory.

But, anyway, so I did (inaudible), and then we also found out that theatre was really

effective. So I organized the Bertolt Brecht Traveling Guerrilla Theatre Troupe [sic].

And before every rally or every (inaudible) march or rally we wanted to create, we --

Q: What was that called, the -- A: Here it is. Here it is, right here.

Q: Oh, okay. Perfect. A: (inaudible). Anyway, we would do theatre,

so that was my thing. I organized that. Here we go. And this is actually me.

Q: Oh, perfect. I’m just going to circle you.

A: That’s me, but there was a whole collection of us. This is a nice picture that [Ellen

did?]. Q: That is awesome. And y’all would just

do -- A: We would do skits. We did skits about the

lettuce boycott. We’d do skits about the war. We did skits about the impact on the

country. We did skits. We did skits. We -- my favorites were -- we would have -- we had

to create a situation, because we had -- some people were students, and some weren’t,

and some were -- so, sometimes, people who were not students at the time would come in

and participate in the skits. But, you know, we had to, like -- (inaudible) was available

for classes at the time the rally was going to be held.

Q: Oh, yeah. A: So we had several formats that we used.

We used some -- one person was the interviewer from -- we used different things, but my personal

favorite was also always Radio KOMY, the red dot on your dial. But we did K, which was

the hot dot on your dial, (laughs) because radio was still around then in a serious kind

of way, and television too. So when we wanted to do television, we were like this, and when

we were doing radio we were just like this. So we would just step out, and we did guerrilla

theatre, which is distinguished from regular theatre by no written scripts.

Q: Oh. A: You can do it anywhere at any time, and

the purpose of it is to involve the audience. So people always stopped to watch theatre,

and we got really very good at just stepping on the West Mall and doing it.

Q: That’s awesome. And that as just a form of raising awareness for the rests of the

students? A: Oh, yeah. So before they -- (laughs) they

plastered over the West Mall. They made it -- yeah, it’s asphalt and concrete. It’s

all concrete now. It’s like -- there’s no grass out there because of our --

Q: Oh, yeah. A: -- frequent and often use of the West Mall

because it was grass when I was there. So that’s where people would stop and sit and

watch, and pretty soon, you know, there were a couple of hundred people, and sometimes

bigger numbers. And then, we all had [to move around?]. I mean, the biggest march I think

we ever created was one that was 25,000 people. I helped organize that one, and we marched

all the way around the university, came back up Guadalupe, and went around the corner at

MLK, turned, and went through the capitol to the capitol grounds. The police tried to

stop us at the corner of MLK and Guadalupe. (laughs) They had sheriff’s deputies, like,

lined across the thing. But my boyfriend and I were in the front of the crowd, and we had

an NLF flag, which was the flag for North Vietnam. And we just cut right through what

was a gas station then, and the whole 25,000 people shifted, and we just marched right

by the police who -- it had never occurred to them that we would watch across the gas

station to (inaudible) instead of going through them.

Q: (inaudible). Yeah. A: It was kind of funny.

Q: Do you happen to remember what that march was for?

A: Yeah, it was against the war. Q: Okay, antiwar march.

A: I don’t remember whether it was Cambodia or around the National Guard killing students

at Kent State. But I do think it was in ’70 or -- yeah, I think it was in 1970, the Cactus,

once again, and the Daily Texan (inaudible) sources for you to look into that. Anyway,

that was a great moment. I was later in the sheriff’s training school in my early thirties

because Margaret Gómez, who is a person -- who is a county commissioner now, who was a -- she

was a constable then in the early ’80s -- hired me to come into her office part-time in a

deputy constable position to assist her staff in learning how to do word processing and

spreadsheets and database management, which was brand-new in the early ’80s, brand-new.

Nobody knew about it. I mean, I happened to be in a place where I said, “Okay, I’m

going to learn about this,” but they didn’t. The whole county wouldn’t (inaudible) these

-- nobody had personal computers. Nobody had them. I mean, a PC was not a thing you had.

The discs were, like, nine-inch discs, floppies, on these computers. But, anyway, so I had

to go to pig school, the sheriff -- because I was in the position, [it was classed?] that

I was a deputy constable part-time, but they made me go to the police academy, sheriff’s

academy. Q: Was there no conflict between being in

the police academy and an avid activist? A: No. But what was interesting was -- so

I got there, so I’m now talking to the people that I was meeting on the corner of MLK and

Guadalupe that very day -- Q: Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

A: -- so we actually were able to sit down and say, “Well, yeah, I was there that day.

Here’s what I remember about it. (laughs) Yeah, you guys were really stupid. You took

--” I said, “What kind of tactical (inaudible) was that?” So that’s Austin for you. Anyway,

that just -- and that was, like, 10 years later, 13 years later. Anyway, but we were

all there, the police, the hippies, and so forth. (laughs) It was a whole [scene?]. Anyway,

so the war was going on, and the theatre was what I put most of my energy into when I wasn’t

standing over the mimeograph machine running off flyers. And on the side -- on the side,

the women’s movement also started getting organized, I think, in ’68, and I was 18

then. I was not in the first meeting of the Women’s Liberation Front, but I was in the

second one, and I was at all the others after that -- well, maybe I missed a few here or

there, but I’m just saying. And I -- it was, like, [awesome?]. We formulated a strategy

of talking to people on campus, and I’m (inaudible) remember this.

We had a basic discussion about the three roles that women played in the culture and

what kinds of limitations they had for women and what kinds of limitations they had for

men, because we did grasp even then that liberation -- the liberation concept -- that sexism was

oppressive to men as well as to women, although it was particularly oppressive to women. But

the men did not escape it just because they were privilege, that male privilege did not

keep them from being limited also and constricted by the roles that were set up for them. However,

when we went out to talk to other -- we talked to students all across the campus, and the

focus was -- (inaudible) was that women played three roles. They played the roles of mothers,

sex objects, and support personnel -- secretaries, typists, housekeepers, house cleaners -- and

that that was really not a very effective use by the society or the culture for the

energy of a bunch of really intelligent people. So, anyway, that was a focus on education

for a long time, and then the women (inaudible) with the women’s liberation front also got

involved in the abortion issue. Now, I personally -- when I was 16 or 17, 1966, I think, I wrote

a state to my state rep at the time protesting the illegality of abortion, and my position

at the time was that it ought to be legal in the cases of rape, incest, and danger to

a woman’s body or a woman’s life. And I got a very nice letter back from my state

rep at the time saying, “No.” Q: Oh.

A: I have it someplace in my -- I have a couple of things someplace. I have a picture of myself

wearing a skirt that’s, like, down to the top of my panties -- the bottom of my panties

at the Economy Furniture Strike where I was there that day, and I have another pi-- I

have a picture of myself, and then I have a copy of -- I have -- not a copy. I have

a key to the city that was given to me by the city council at one point when I left

and went to Europe and came back. But the -- (laughs) it was given to me by the city

councilman who soon, eventually, resigned because he called the police out to his house

when he was -- had snorted too much cocaine and was chopping up his hose because he thought

it was a snake. (laughs) Q: Oh, my gosh. What?

A: That city councilman engineered my getting a key to the city of Austin --

Q: For -- A: -- for my good work as a lobbyist, because

they had missed me while I had been gone to Europe. So when I came back, they gave me

a key and a resolution that was passed with my name on it by the Texas House of Representatives

(inaudible) me as an honorary young Texan in 1972. And that was actually because I worked

on the Farenthold campaign for governor. Q: On which campaign?

A: Farenthold, Sissy Farenthold. Q: Oh, okay. Yes.

A: It’s F-A-R-E-N-T-H-O-L-D. It’s, yeah, Farenthold, gubernatorial campaign. She ran

against Dolph Briscoe. He won. (laughs) Q: Oh, yeah.

A: And she ran in ’72, and she ran again in ’74, but I worked on the ’72 campaign.

And the other thing I haven’t (inaudible) copy of is the letter I got back from the

state rep about the [abortion?] (inaudible). Q: Oh, yeah.

A: My historic documents. (laughs) It’s my historic documents file. Anyway, so I did

-- I got involved with the women’s movement, and we basically, you know, did education

on campus, and then we got involved with abortion. And we got involved with assisting women going

to Mexico to get abortions when it was illegal. And we were escorts, you know. I was not directly

involved with that particular part of it. They probably thought I was too young or too

stupid or possibly even -- who knows. But the women who were a little bit older than

myself -- this would be Judy Smith, (inaudible) -- would escort women, help women arrange

to get abortions in Mexico, and they would escort them down there. So we did a lot of

that. Q: That’s crazy.

A: It was a whole trip. I mean, it was really illegal, and it was really hard. I mean, I

went with a girlfriend of mine who got pregnant and needed to get an abortion, and the whole

thing was just totally neurotic and really hard. I would not wish that for [any of you?]

ever. Q: Yeah. There are so many things that I can’t

personally even imagine, having to go through the lengths that y’all went through.

A: Did. Q: Yes.

A: We did go through lengths. Then, also -- of course, you know, for us it was interesting

because I was -- as I said, I was 18 in 1968, and, you know, suddenly the pill was there.

Q: Oh, yeah, that’s when that came out. I remember.

A: Yeah, we should talk about that too. Q: Yeah.

A: The impact on us. So we all, you know -- (laughs) I remember I went to go get the pill when

I was 17 from my lifelong doctor at that time. And I really went to get it for something

to do with, I think, complexion issues. And my doctor wouldn’t give it to me because

he was afraid it would make me promiscuous. Meanwhile, his daughter was being escorted

to get an abortion. I mean, you know, it’s like, give me a break. (laughs) So I left

my doctor and found another one who would give me the pill. So this is just -- it’s

my interview, so I’ll go ahead and just add this piece. (inaudible) over here. So,

you know, when I was 13, I had this bizarre conversation with my father. I guess it wasn’t

really bizarre, but it was an odd conversation. When I was 13, my father said to me, “Patricia,

you know, sex is really important in a marriage.” I have to just say at this point in time,

for all intents and purposes, I was a tomboy, and I was climbing trees, and I was not even

interested in boys. But my father [picks?] this moment, for whatever reason, to have

this conversation with me, so he says -- so he said, “But you have to really know what

you want sexually before you --” he said, “You really have to know what you want sexually

to be satisfied.” And I was like, “Uh-huh.” And so he said, “So the only way to really

know what you want is to experiment.” And I’m like, “What? What?” (laughs) The

pill is not out either, I might point out. Okay, I’m 13. All right. It’s 1963. My

father says, “So I just want you to know, when you feel like it, just go out there and

experiment. And if you get pregnant --” I thought, “If I get pregnant?”

Q: You’ve got to go to Mexico. A: What? No, this is -- I’m 13. I don’t

know about Mexico. (laughs) I didn’t know about any of this. This is even before I wrote

the letter to the state reps. I said, “What?” He said, “Well, you know, if you get pregnant

out there experimenting,” [he meant?], “you know, you can have an abortion. We’ll support

you in that, or you can marry the guy if you want to, or you can give the baby up for adoption,

or, you know, you can raise it yourself. We’ll support you. We’re there for you. Just let

your mother and I know that you’re pregnant, and we’ll help you take care of it.” (laughs)

You know, deep within me, my resolve was clear. Nobody is going to put a hand on my body until

I am 18, and they had better be prepared with a ring on the spot, because I am not, not,

not going to find myself pregnant. No, no, no. We’re too loud?

F1: Hi, [guys?]. Yeah, the rooms aren’t soundproof, so --

A: I’m sorry. F1: -- (inaudible).

Q: Thank you. A: (inaudible) [help me?]. Okay, anyway, so

at that moment I knew I would be a virgin until I was at least 18. And the chances of

my ever (inaudible) and finding out about what I wanted sexually were minimal. Things

changed, but it’s not (inaudible) where that left me. And that was a very unusual

conversation, I think, probably for that time. My father was a very unusual man. That (inaudible)

[true?]. Q: Yeah, he seems very, very supportive, very

supportive. A: Well, he was. Let’s just contemplate

that when I was 18 my father was running a local bar where they had go-go dancers, and

he was making the costumes. Okay, I’m just saying -- [this is?] my life, so (inaudible)

an unusual father here. But, anyway, so this is going on (inaudible). So we are over here

to [contemplate this?], we were over here taking our birth control pills, having sex

with whoever we wanted to whenever we wanted to have it, and at the same time Erich Fromm

has come out with this book -- F-R-O-M-M, F-R-O-H-M, maybe -- anyway, has come out with

this stupid book in which he explains how, since the more -- since we only have sex with

intimate -- people we have intimate relationships with, the more intimate relationships we have

-- no, the more sex we have, the more intimate relationships we’ll have. This is very appealing.

“Well, I guess we should all have these deep, intimate relationships.”

And then, there’s Robert Heinlein over from the side writing, from Stranger in a Strange

Land, these whole bizarre stories about, you know, the original tribal operations where

we just all lived together and would sleep together, and we’d just go about our business,

you know, raising our kids together, communes. The original commune, I think, comes out of

Robert Heinlein. He actually came to UT one time as a speaker. I actually met him. I was

quite interested in what he’d had to say, and then he said, “And so are you going

to come home with me tonight?” And I said, “No, I’m not.” And he said, “Well,

there’s no point in talking to you anymore if you won’t fuck me.” And I said, “I’m

not going to fuck you.” Q: Oh, bold.

A: And after that, I can tell you Robert Heinlein was no longer on my list of favorites, but

he was so crass, and he was older, too. I mean, really, what do I want him for? I had

all these other guys. Q: (inaudible).

A: So we were all busy. Many of us got into permanent -- you know, got into relationships

that were monogamous, but many of us did not. We just kind of slept with whoever we wanted

to whenever we felt like it. It’s kind of like y’all are doing today, but the prices

were not so high for us. We used to just get venereal diseases. Y’all can [die from them?],

so we worry about you. Q: Fair. (laughs)

A: We worry about you. We worry about AIDS. We do not worry about syphilis so much. We

worry about AIDS. Okay, so there -- so with the women, we also did theatre around, and

we had a really great piece that we did. I really liked it, and I remember doing it for

the city council one time in the middle of W Mall. The city council was having a meeting

there, and on their way in and on their way out a few girls of us -- a few of us girls

got together, and it was a nice piece. Three people get together. They get on their hands

and knees, so they’re -- and they’re together, right, so they’re a bench. And the fourth

person, a woman -- the other three are women, too. The fourth person, a woman, starts telling

her story about how she found herself pregnant and the choices that she had in front of her

and how she would be dealing with that. And then, so she started out talking about, you

know, “I was minding my own business. I was in the doctor’s office the other day.”

So she throws herself across the bed, lies back, and the doctor appears, right, and opens

her legs, and looks in, and says, “My dear, you’re pregnant.” And the whole table

underneath her collapses. She gets up, and the whole table collapses. “Pregnant,”

it all screams. So then she moves into, you know, her choices, and her parents show up,

and they have a whole story going. But it moves the discussion around into “It’s

our choice.” It’s a pro-choice piece, and we did that for a while. And my favorite

theatre I think I ever did -- as the war continued, we went down to Congress Avenue one day. I

think this was for May Day. A bunch of people, about 100 people, left Texas and went to Washington,

DC, to demonstrate there. But back home, we did not let this -- we did not let the fact

that everybody was in Washington bother us. I was still at home, so we did some theatre

in the middle of the Capitol Rotunda, and it was an antiwar piece about the four horsemen

of the apocalypse. We put people wearing black with scythes and white masks on every corner

of Congress Avenue, and we were at 4th and Congress where there was an Austin American

Bank -- I think it was -- at the time. I dressed up in a dress and heels and hose, and one

of my associates, who was an antiwar GI, got on his corner, and he was talking about the

war. And he’s got -- you know, because [it’s?] clear you were doing theatre because the death

masks are up and down and around, so I’m walking by, and I’m observably walking by.

And I stop to listen, and, you know, I figured out how to do this so that I’d get their

attention, so -- and I start, you know, in with him, like, “Well, what the --” you

know, and so he’s very gentle and nice and so forth. And I’m just a screaming harpy,

but, you know, we very effectively (inaudible) about 200 people on this corner of Congress

Avenue. Traffic is being stopped, you know, (laughs) so people can’t get by. Everyone

is crowding in, and we were so good at what we were doing that finally people started

screaming at me, basically, “Shut up, you bitch.” (laughs)

Q: (inaudible). A: It was so bad. I mean, we had to actually

-- when we got through with the theatre piece, we had to debrief them. “No, this -- it

was theatre. It was really -- it’s really okay.” (laughs)

Q: Yeah. A: “[You’re?] okay,” because they were

ready to take me out to shoot me because, you know, I was (inaudible) all the stories

and all the lies that we were being told by the national media and the politics of the

time. Anyway -- Q: So you’d say that theatre piece was combating

just -- A: The war.

Q: -- the war in general. A: The war took up a lot of our time and energy

because it was so incredibly wrong, and it was taking its toll on us generationally,

and so many lies. I mean, we had a great quote that we used for a long time, which is, “The

brass is the ass of the ruling class.” And we used to chant

that when we were marching. Q: What does that mean exactly?

A: It means that the military is used by the ruling class to conduct the business of the

ruling class and protect its interests abroad. That is the purpose of the United States military,

and I do not -- I’d like to just say that that would be my contemporary, my current

position as well. Q: (inaudible).

A: So it’s been really, I mean -- but y’all are not seeing the war in Afghanistan on a

daily basis. Q: Yeah.

A: You’re not seeing -- coming home in caskets, you know, when this week [makes?] an announcement

that there were three people -- on television, on the Sunday morning (inaudible) announcement

there were three people killed in Afghanistan this year. You’d see their names and where

they came from. You do not see their faces. You do not see their caskets. You do not -- you’re

not there when they returned. We saw it, and we saw casualty after casualty.

Q: (inaudible). A: We lost in that war, my generation -- my

immediate generation lost 55,000 -- 53,000 people killed. I think it was not quite as

high as the Civil War, which was 55,000 killed on both sides. And we also got another 300,000

people who were maimed, disabled in one way or another. That’s a huge -- a huge (inaudible).

Q: And that was a lot of your generation personally. A: That was my -- it was. Yes, it was people

-- Q: Yeah.

A: -- who were five years older and five years younger because it went on for so long. Ten

people -- 10 years, you know, of people just wiped out of the database, just gone, DOA.

So (inaudible). Anyway, so at some point I made a transition -- and I worked in student

government, too, I was going say, because -- let’s talk about (inaudible) first.

Q: Yeah. A: So after my little round with David and

John about the finer points of United Farm Workers, my friend Jeff Jones got elected

student body president. I remember when Jeff was elected it was -- you know, he was, like,

the radical student body president. It was, like, this big deal. I think it was in ’69.

Anyway, so I was not here. I was in Boston. I went to Boston in -- sometime in 1970. It

must have been in ’71, because I wrote this article in 1970. I went -- yeah, I went in

’71 to just experience life in the Northeast. And while I was there, I had the opportunity

to have the FBI on my doorstep. (laughs) Q: Oh, wow.

A: Yeah. It was kind of a funny story. I went to live with a friend of mine who had been

-- she was an activist also in Pittsburgh, and then she had moved to Boston to go to

college, to go -- to work on finishing her degree. And I went up to live with her because

she was in Boston, and I had never lived in Boston. I wanted to see what that was about.

So Anne and I and another woman, Betsy, are living in our little house in Brookline, and

one day the landlady’s -- I can tell this story. It’s 50 years later. One day, the

landlady’s son comes over and says, “Listen, you all have to be really careful,” and

we’re like, “Why?” And he said, “Well, the FBI has come to see my mom,” and his

mother is an old Jewish lady, and she’s got prison -- I mean, she’s got concentration

camp numbers on the inside of her arm in blue. Q: Oh, (inaudible).

A: You know? So she’s Jewish. She has escaped from the Nazis, and now she has the FBI on

her door wanting to talk to her -- Q: What a life.

A: -- about the 20-year-old girls who are living in her house or whatever. (laughs)

And upstairs were six law students who were going to Harvard, and the bottom were three

local activists, one of whom was going to Boston University. Anyway, you know, it was

really bizarre. So he came over and said, “Listen, you know, you need to know about

that.” So we’re like, “Oh, okay.” But in the same week, I -- oh, one of our

friends had a band, and he wanted to practice. And we had a basement, these beautiful old

mansions with these deep basements that you find only in the Northeast. So I said, “Well,

I’ll go ask the neighbors.” So I went from neighbor to neighbor, so the one -- the

woman across the street from us was like, “No, no, you don’t want to do that.”

And then, we later found out that the FBI had the guy up on the second floor, and he

had, like, binoculars and cameras and was picturing -- taking pictures of everybody

who came in and out of our house. Q: Oh, my goodness.

A: And I went next door, and I said, “So can our friend -- we want to have our friends

use our basement to play their music, and would that be okay? And if it’s really too

loud or something, just let -- would you let us know?” “Oh, I don’t think you should

do that.” “Why wouldn’t we do that?” (laughs) “Well, because it might not be

safe.” “Why wouldn’t it be safe?” I mean, it was this whole (inaudible) until

finally somebody spit it out. “Well, the FBI came to see us about you.” But, you

know, I figured out it later. We thought it was because of our political activities, because

we were a stop for people going -- we were a place, an inn for people going from Texas

to Boston and other places, some other friends, on their way to Canada to meet with the Vietnamese

and stuff. But later, I think, I worked in a gynecologist’s office in Boston while

I was there, and about six blocks away from our house there was a house with other activists

who engaged in military -- in arms. And eventually, they busted them for possession of firearms.

Q: Oh, okay. A: But -- and I’ve often wondered -- I thought

about it later, and I thought, “Well, maybe it’s because I walked --” that I might

have walked down that street or something that they thought there was some -- you know,

some connection. Q: Yeah.

A: We didn’t know them, and we never met them, fortunately for us.

Q: Yeah, fortunately [for you?]. A: But, you know, we’re sitting there in

Boston thinking, you know, “We need to --” so we’re calling the ACLU saying, “You know,

we have the FBI over here bothering us. Would you -- can we talk to you about this?” And

they said, “Well, you know, if they come and do anything, call us.” “Okay.” But

I thought that was kind of [funny?]. But I don’t think it was becau-- it’s hard to

say. I don’t think it was because of our political activity. I think it was because

we were down the street and around the corner from people who actually were engaged in (inaudible).

Q: Yeah, and you both had the activists going on.

A: Yes, (inaudible), so -- yeah. Q: Yeah.

A: So, anyway, I was in Boston for a while, and I did some interesting things there. I

went to -- I went down to Yale, to New Haven. They had the trial of Bobby Seale and Ericka

Huggins who were well-known black activists at the time. I thought it was really funny.

While I was there, I met several people who were involved with the Weather Underground,

but, you know, it was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen in my entire, whole life.

I’ll never forget it. We walk into this house, my friend and her friend who’s introducing

us to people, who knows these folks. So we go in, and not a single person -- not a single

person -- these are all people who the [FBI is really after?]. This is the infamous Weather

Underground. They will wind up, all of them, being pursued by the FBI before the next five

years have passed, and nobody says, “Well, who are you, and where are you coming -- where

did you come from?” except for Jerry Rubin, who said, “Who are you, and where did you

come from?” And I said, “Well, I’m here from Texas, from Austin.” He said, “Well,

really? So do you know --” and I’m like, “Yeah, I know blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,”

so it was okay. But he was the only one who stopped to even ask me anything, you know.

It was so bizarre. Anyway, so I did kind of that, and then I came back to Texas, and I

worked -- so I started working, came back to Texas. It was [still in?] ’71. Let’s

see. I don’t know. I ran for the student -- I think I ran for the vice presi-- you

know, unexpected vacancy, and the guy who was the president of the student body at the

time said, “You should run.” So I said, “Okay,” so I did. We were -- we didn’t

(inaudible) years, and I lost, although I was in the runoff. I was the first woman to

run -- who had run (inaudible) since Liz Carpenter --

Q: Oh, wow. A: -- who was -- she ran with LBJ when he

was -- Lyndon Baines Johnson was president of the student body at UT at one point, and

Liz Carpenter was the vice president, and she won. I think she won.

Q: So you were the first to run, and then she was the first to win.

A: She was the first to run and win. Q: Oh, okay.

A: But no woman had run for president or vice president in the previous 20 years. So when

I ran, I lost, but the year after, two years after, another woman who was supported by

the same guy, Carol -- I want to say Carol [Cromwell?]. No, it’s Carol Crabtree. She

won. She ran and won, so it could be done. Q: So was it around this time that you got

involved with the Economy Furniture Strike? A: Oh, the Economy Furniture Strike. So I

was involved with them before I went to Boston, and I was involved with them for several years.

So Jeff was the student body president, and we went out -- I found out about them from

Suzie, who was doing the community involvement committee for his -- for Jeff. And when I

went and met them and found out what was going on, I was very impressed with what a great

struggle this was. This was, like, (inaudible) -- well, you saw the movie, so it was really

poor people dealing with an oppressive situation where they wanted a union, and it wouldn’t

be recognized. And lot of others forces in the community supported the owner as opposed

to supporting the workers, and I just thought it was appalling. It was -- it was such a

-- it wasn’t just about more wages. It was also (inaudible) about racism, and I was just

appalled. So I formed a thing called Students for Strikers, and we organized people to go

out and do strike support, which was a -- so I went out and did quite a bit of it myself.

I spent a lot of time in the picket line and knew everybody out there really well and personally.

And then, I helped take those people and get them back [to the school?]. One of the stories

that I really have loved a lot was -- there was a woman that was part of the workers and

was part of the strike operation, Delia Botello, B-O-T-E-L-L-O, D-E-L-I-A, and --

Q: I’m sorry. One more time. A: Delia Botello, D-E-L-I-A, Botello, B-O-T-E-L-L-O.

And it was -- I got Delia to agree to come in and talk to the student organizations on

campus, and at that time there was the Mexican American Youth Organization, which was a little

more radical, and there was the Mexican American Student Organization, which was very bourgeois,

you know, middle-class families try to get their [kids support?], whereas MAYO had people

who had mixed (inaudible) backgrounds but were all focused on scholarships and everything

else to move forward as well. So I took Delia to it, and as we were walking across campus

she said -- [wow, this was great?]. We’re walking across campus to the meeting, and

she says, “Pot,” because she didn’t know how to say “Pat.” She pronounced

my name “Pot.” She said, “Pot, I just don’t know if I can do this.” And I said,

“What is the problem, Delia? It is your story. All you have to do is tell it.” She

said, “No.” She said, “I don’t know any ten-dollar words,” and I said, “You

don’t need any ten-dollar words.” But she was so afraid of (inaudible). (crying)

When we got to the meeting, she started speaking, and she moved the entire room so powerfully.

They all packed -- they all agreed that they would go out to the strike lines and take

a picnic the next weekend. (laughs) But they were really very impressed. One of the people

that was involved in that operation was Amalia Rodriguez-Mendoza, who is our current district

clerk, so I knew Amalia for many years, well, after that. Also at the strike line I ran

into Richard Moya, who later became the county commissioner, and Margaret Gómez, who is

the current county commissioner. Margaret and I have been friends since that period

of time, which is how it was I wound up working for her in the early ’80s helping her staff

learning how to kind of automate.

Anyway, so longtime friendships and relationships came out of the relationship with the Economy

Furniture Strike, which changed the course of Austin’s history, because what it did

was -- I mean, the people in the community -- the Economy Furniture Strike video that

you saw features properly the people in the Economy -- people who were at the strike and

who worked on the strike and stuff like that. But they were impacted a lot by their involvement

with the students because we had that -- because we had that relationship and because, in some

ways, I had that relationship. I’ll just say it. I mean, I was not the most important

person in any of the stories, but I was the bridge person because I had the personal relationships.

I was, like, (inaudible) the student community out at the strike line a lot, [going?] a lot.

So, consequently, they knew me, and they trusted me, and I knew them, and I trusted them. So

when we started talking about others things like, you know, “Would you support our candidate

for county commissioner, Richard Moya, or Johnny Treviño or whatever?” I could say,

“Yes, we can do that,” and I could go back to -- because my friends were the president

of the student body and stuff like that. And I could go back and say, “Let’s do this,”

and they would (inaudible) do it.

And about the same time, kind of from the side, other people like Peck Young, who’s

currently the director of policy at ACC, were also getting involved and trying to figure

out how to organize things politically, and the Democratic Party was very interested in

trying to (inaudible). And we’re kind of out of the war now, [getting out of?] the

war -- no, we’re still -- I’m sorry. We’re still heavily into the war. So, because of

our involvement with the strikers, they wound up having their own thing on Chicano Huelga,

a strike, a moratorium, a march. It was, like, 5,000 people, which was -- so the Hispanic

community, which has not been heard from ever, (laughs) puts 5,000 people in the streets

marching against the war, not with the students, their own -- their own thing.

Q: Yeah, I was curious about that, how -- so the Chicano movement had its own thing going

on, but they also were standing up for antiwar as well.

A: Yeah. Q: It was two separate but -- okay.

A: Yeah, that’s it. As they become more political, they became more political, and

then people like Richard Moya and Johnny Treviño, Margaret Gómez, Gonzalo Barrientos -- I worked

on his campaign in ’72 as well as Sissy Farenthold’s.

Q: On his campaign? A: Gonzalo Barrientos. He was a state senator

for a long time. He just recently retired. Yeah, Gonzalo, B-A-R-R-I-E-N-T-O-S. We’re

still good friends. (laughs) When Gonzalo got ready to run his second campaign -- he

lost the first one for state rep and got ready to run the second run, and he showed up at

my house at, like, ten o’clock in the morning one Saturday because the man I was sleeping

with was somebody he wanted to come and see about money. (laughs)

Q: Oh, wow. A: So my housemate -- no, my housemate. My

housemate comes in, and she says, “Pat.” She says, “Gonzalo is here.” And I said,

“Well, what?” And it was like, “And he’s looking for so-and-so,” and I said,

“Oh, okay.” So I pulled my boyfriend out and said, “Your business.” It was funny.

Q: I was also wondering -- this was all going on, and obviously the Mexican American community

was involved in it and the activists such as yourselves, but did Austin or the community

as a whole take an interest in the Economy Furniture Strike?

A: Not intentionally, but because it kept growing and growing and because the pieces

of it kept moving out and flowering, eventually we controlled the city council. Not all of

it, but we controlled a chunk of it. I mean, we delivered the vote. We could pull in 51

percent of the vote. We could pull in 52 percent of the vote because we organized southeast

Austin’s whole area, Riverside, south Austin, you know, and certain -- and part of the black

community, because they were not -- they are not mentioned in the story so far.

Q: Yeah. A: But I also spent time working with, like,

the welfare rights organization while I was out being a little community organizer. I

mean, I was really a busy girl, and I -- no, I did. I went back and forth from all of these

different pieces. I just (inaudible) -- wherever I saw injustice and didn’t like it, I just

stepped right in, and I was young and had lots of energy, and, you know, money was important.

And, you know, I don’t know what I did for transportation. I think I had cars, but I

don’t remember really. But we did a lot of -- I did a lot of volunteer activity, and

I spent a lot of time on the east side. So, you know, we eventually just formed this -- I

don’t know. You know, David Butz became -- he runs a lot of judges’ campaigns now,

but before that David also ran -- he organized all the student precinct operations. And,

you know, we would just decide who we were going to support. Things got printed up, and

people got elected. That’s why Austin has had a really hard time.

It wasn’t until we changed the charter that we could get single-member districts, because

we could prove discrimination, because we had a gentleman’s agreement for years that

this seat was for a black person, this seat was for a Hispanic person, and this seat was

for a woman. And the other three could go to white men. We didn’t care, but the ones

we had were (inaudible). And I actually watched city council meetings since I was in high

school, because I was at Austin High, and at the time the city council met over on 8th

and Lavaca. And I used to go over to the city council -- I had [passes?] to go over to the

city council meetings, like, Thursday mornings at ten o’clock during my junior and senior

years, and I went over and did that. I even wrote a really good political satire one time

about Emma Long and Louis Shanks and Ben White and Travis LaRue and Mayor Palmer, Lester

Palmer. It was only five people. Q: You really were the jack-of-all-trades.

A: No, a really political activist who was spending time in a community that was small.

When I was growing up, Austin had 50,000 people in it.

Q: Oh. (inaudible) boomed now. A: Huh?

Q: It’s much larger now. A: It is much larger now, and I might add

that every time I drive down I-35 and have to deal with traffic I am so sorry that I

got involved with the stop growth movement, but I started it, and I participated in it.

And now I can’t (inaudible) -- Q: Which movement was that?

A: Stop growth, because we did not want Austin to grow. We did not like that. We were not

interested in all the builders making mass fortunes building all this housing, but the

planning department kept saying, “Austin is going to grow. You can’t stop it.”

And we kept saying, “We don’t want them here. If they can’t get around, they won’t

come.” So now they just can’t get around. Q: I was also going to ask -- and you had

mentioned it earlier just as kind of, like, an explanation of what you thought, because

-- you mentioned that racism exploits the Chicano but also oppresses the white.

A: Yes. Q: What do you mean by “oppresses the white”?

A: Well, I feel like a huge -- it’s a huge loss for a white person to, first of all,

not be able to really connect with, know, be intimate in any kind of real way with someone

who’s not white because they don’t trust us, and we don’t even know we’re not trusted.

And we shouldn’t be trusted, because we have a bunch of beliefs about people of other

colors, which are not true. So, because we have these beliefs, which are not true, they

affect our behavior. They affect our belief systems. They affect [things?], and they are

not -- they are all based on stories we’ve been told that were not true. As I’ve gotten

older -- so I wrote this in 1970, but I would not say now that racism is really the worst

thing ever. I would say that classism is the worst thing ever, but out of classism, it’s

clear to me, grow racism and sexism and all the ways that we find to be separate from

each other, from other people. I think all of them are limiting and undermined the development

of the human spirit. And I don’t care, you know, what sex or color or whatever you are.

So what I really saw at the time was -- I guess the first story I would say -- I was

out doing -- I was out registering voters when I was a young Democrat. It must have

been in early 1967, ’68, and I was in the St. Johns area. And I walked out to -- I was

put out there [at a high school?] (inaudible), and I’m registering voters. And I walked

up to somebody’s house, and I knocked on the door, and this older black man came to

the door. And I said, “Hi, sir, I’m here to register -- are you registered to vote?”

And he looked at me, and he said, “No, ma’am.” I said, “Would you like to be registered

to vote?” He said, “Yes, ma’am.” And I said, “Would you fill out this card?”

And he said, “Yes, ma’am,” and I was 17 years old, and he was an older person.

And he made it really clear to me that he just saw me as way more powerful than him,

and it was totally inappropriate because I was 17.

Q: He was your elder. A: Yeah, he was my elder, but that’s the

way I saw it. That’s not the way he saw it. And that was the first time I think I

really understood that it doesn’t matter how well meaning you are. You’re standing

on the history of hundreds of thousands of people before you who have made this -- who

have created this head-set. And, you know, there’s your side of it based on your color,

and there’s somebody else’s side of it based on their color. And getting across that

to have some kind of real human contact is a huge challenge because you must cut through

so much crap has been piled on both of you and that is -- and so, to be able to do that

in any kind of honest way has been a huge lifetime struggle for me. I mean, it really

has. The love of my life is from Zimbabwe, and

he is black, and he’s also really involved with the whole struggle there originally for

nationalism and eventually -- and still for some kind of free operation in the country.

So we’ve had to deal with over the years -- I mean, it’s a whole story. You know,

it’s like -- so I’ll go ahead and (inaudible). This is a great story to have. I’ll someday

make a lot of money on this story if I ever write my real autobiography.

But, you know, I met him when I was 28, and I was in Europe. And to make a long story

short, I sat down on a plane next to this man, and there was another guy [on the other

side of us?] like three [toes?] in a sweatshop. And (inaudible). And we started -- we [were

really tight?], and it was Air Ghana. And we sat there, and I thought, “Well --” and

I noticed that everybody on the plane but me was black, and I thought, “Well, okay.”

Everybody was asleep, so I said, “You’re having (inaudible), so shut up and get a grip.”

So I could -- you could still smoke, so I pulled out a cigarette. And just as I was

ready to light it, this lighter comes in from next door to me. This guy leans over and lights

my cigarette for me and said something along the lines of, “May I?” And I said, “Well,

thank you.” So I’m wondering, “[Gosh, does?] anybody in this plane speak English?”

So he, in beautiful Queen’s English, rolls out, “So where are you from?” And I thought,

“Oh, God,” because I had been in Europe for six months at this point, maybe three.

It may have been three or four months, and I had been around -- and I had traveled in

different places, and I really understood that -- well, you know, everybody in the world

knows that we’re racists in this country and especially in the South. So here, I’m

sitting next to this black man, and I’m getting ready to say, “I’m from Texas.

It’s in the southern part of the United States.” (laughs) But, you know, I said,

“Well, I’m from Texas. It’s in the southern part of the United States.” And he looks

at me like, “Oh, fuck.” You know, “Who is this woman that I’m -- oh, God. Who (inaudible)?”

Q: “What did I get myself into?” (laughs) A: “Who did I start this conversation with?”

And I said to him politely -- I said, “And where are you from?” He said, “I’m from

Zimbabwe,” and I said -- and all I have to say for myself is that it was 1978, and

I said, “Zimbabwe.” I said, “Is that one of those postcolonial emerging African

nations?” And he said, “Yes.” He said, “Some people call it Rhodesia.” Well,

okay, Rhodesia and South Africa, big-time racist oppression, okay, so I kind of take

a deep breath. He kind of takes a deep breath, and we look at each other, and there’s -- this

giant Plexiglas shield rises between the two of us, you know, sitting that tightly packed

together. But the two of us look at each other, and, you know, it’s like we can see it crosses

our consciousnesses at the same moment, “You know, this is a person who is possibly the

most different and opposite from me from anybody else in the whole world, and I have him right

here on this plane, you know, in the middle of the night, so let’s talk.”

So we start talking. Well, he’s from Zimbabwe, but he’s in Accra, Ghana, and he’s working

on his master’s in African history. I’ve just graduated from the University of Texas,

and I got my degree in history, too, although my interest is not in African history, duh,

duh, duh, duh. And then, we find out we’re both leftists. We’re both actually Communists,

you know, and we just are -- I tell you we are there. We are anti-imperialists. We are

trucking. We are, like, so excited because we’re finding out that even though we are

the two most opposite people we’ve ever met we have this huge collection of interests

and perceptions in common. So we are talking about American imperialism. We are talking

about sexism. We are -- I can’t even tell you. I’m stunned, because here he is, this

[probable?] feminist, you know, hanging out in Africa in the middle of a civil war, you

know, and here I am, this person who lives in the American South who’s an anti-imperialist

and does not approve of the United States running around and collecting resources and

exploiting African nations and so forth. It’s like -- he’s stunned. I’m stunned. We’re,

like, “Oh, my God,” and then it happens.

I say, “Well, so tell me, do you have American imperialism in Zimbabwe?” And he said, “Oh,

yes.” And I said, “Well, which country? Is there any country in particular -- I mean,

which company -- which company?” And he says, “Well --” he said -- and I thought

he said, “Kotex.” I just want to say in my own defense I had been up for three days

previously before I got on this plane in [Rome?] on my way to London. It was a charter flight.

I didn’t know anything about getting on, but I hadn’t had any sleep in several days,

and also, all the [more?] (inaudible) had just been dumped (inaudible), so after being

kidnapped by the Brigate Rosse (inaudible) for seven months. Anyway, I had to spend the

entire night waiting for this plane, which left at six or five o’clock in the morning,

talking to the chief of police of the security at Rome airport. I’m just saying I had a

long (inaudible). Q: (laughs) You had a long (inaudible).

A: So that’s when I heard him say, “Kotex,” and I said, “Kotex.” No, I didn’t say

-- I said, “Really?” And he said, “Oh, yes.” And I’m thinking, “Cotton, Egyptian

cotton, cotton growing in Africa,” and I’m seeing -- I’m going back to the Economy

Furniture Strike, you know, and I’m seeing shacks and sheds with bad ventilation and

people gasping and wheezing and cotton fiber in people’s noses and cotton fiber in people’s

ears and nobody able to get away from cotton fibers. So I -- but I wanted to be sure, so

I say, “Well, what are you going to do with them after the revolution?” He said, “We’re

going to throw them out of the country.” And I said, “Really?” And he said, “Yes.”

And I said, “Are you sure you want to do that?” He said, “Why wouldn’t we?”

I said, “Have you talked to the women, because, you know, I’m a feminist. Even though this

is not my war, not my fight, I have to be concerned about women internationally.”

Q: The women. A: “And they have been out in the jungles

and the plains and the terrain, you know, fighting a civil war for 15 years, and they’ve

probably had to use rags the whole time. I mean, do you really want to come back to civilization

and find that the Kotex is gone. I’m just saying.”

Q: Yeah. Yeah. A: Well, I mean, I know we’re back to using

rags now, but I’m just saying at the time we had Kotex. All right. And we were very

happy to have it. So I’m looking at him. He’s saying -- and then he says -- here’s

the moment -- he said, “Why would we ask them?” And just as I was ready to launch

into my soapbox -- get out my soapbox and launch into my story, I said, “Wait, wait,

wait.” I said -- I just had to be sure, because, you know, sex things are different

in countries and cultures. And he said -- I said to him -- I said, “Are you familiar

with the product?” And he looked at me like, “You dumb-fuck bitch, yes, of course I’m

familiar with the product. I know exactly what I’m talking about. What is your problem?”

I thought, “Okay.” And then, I did get out my soapbox because he knew what the product

was, and he was going to take it away from women. I had to look inside myself. I had

also been a member of the board of directors of the People’s Community Clinic sometime

in the early -- my early career in the ’70s. This was one of my many activities. And I

thought, “Okay, you can or you cannot discuss, you know, Fallopian tubes and menstruation.

You can do this. You can.” And I thought (inaudible), yeah, I had a job. Women everywhere

were depending on me. There was no telling what might happen when he got back after this

war was over. I mean, he could be anywhere. And it turned out -- he actually turned out

to be the head of the health and human services department for the country.

Q: What? A: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I mean, right there

in Kotex territory, so I said, “Well,” and then I launched into this whole diatribe

about Kotex and how, you know, it was only one of those kinds of products that didn’t

have deodorant chemicals, which cause tissue inflammation, and, I mean, you know, I was

-- I was eloquent. And at the end, I didn’t rest my case with [those statements?]. I said

(inaudible), “This product and this product alone does not have deodorant chemicals, which

cause tissue inflammation.” And he looked at me, and he said, “What product are you

talking about?” And I looked at him, and I thought -- I said, “Well --” I said,

“I’m speaking of Kotex.” And he looks at me, and he says, “I see.” And I say,

“Perhaps there’s been a misunderstanding.” And I looked at him again, and I said, “So

what were you talking about?” And he said, “I was speaking of Cal Tech, [which?] produces

weapons. And I said, “Oh, well, there --” no, I’m sorry. I said, “Oh, well, there was

a misunderstanding.” He said, “Well --” he said, “Now, so what were you talking about?”

And I said, “No, no, not necessary. No, no, no.” But, anyway, so I finally said

Kotex, and I looked at him, and I said, “And are you familiar with Kotex?” And he said,

“Yes,” and he blushed. (inaudible) blush, but he blushed. And then, we looked at each

other, and we fell in love. So that was the story that went on for -- I don’t know -- 35

years, 40 years, back and forth, (inaudible). He later married and (inaudible), but it was

an interesting [story?]. Q: See, that’s a super interesting take

on how racism -- A: Racism can affect our lives.

Q: -- yeah, can affect you and be even a motivator for you personally as an activist.

A: Well, you know, and I just have to say that -- well, I was an activist about the

[whole matter?] before that, but before I left to go to Europe a friend of mine [who

is black?] had asked me to marry him, and I said, “Can this wait until I get back

from Europe?” And he said, “No,” and I said, “Well, then marry somebody else,

because I must go.” But we were friends and lovers off and on. He and I have been

friends and lovers off and on [for years?]. I mean, the first three people I slept with,

the first one was white, the second one was Hispanic, and the third one was black. So

I just -- you know, I started out moving (inaudible) in the world, but I didn’t let any little

thing like that come between me and my interest of exploring the world. But Musafare, he did

go back and become the head of the human services department, [which is?] the Zimbabwe Red Cross.

He was the director or the secretary of it, they called him, for some years. And, you

know, when the war was over in 1973 he came to see me, and he said -- and we had been

writing, and we had been entranced -- I mean, to see him when I turned 30 in Ghana, and

we spent a couple of weeks together then. And then, when the war was over, he was brought

back to Zimbabwe, and he came to see me one day in Texas. And he said, “Look, I love

you very much, but what I’m seeing in Zimbabwe is that people who left the country, men who