Alyce Guynn oral history

  • Q: Okay. So if you could tell me a bit about yourself, like your full name, like where
  • you’re from, how you ended up coming to Austin.
  • A: Would you repeat the last part? Q: How you ended up coming to Austin, if you
  • were born -- A: Sure. Sure. My name is Alyce McCullough
  • Guynn. And I am from a tiny town in Texas that’s just where IH-35 forks in to go to
  • Dallas and Fort Worth. It’s called Hillsborough. And I was Women’s Editor of the newspaper
  • there, as a -- at a really young age. And I came to Austin and got a job on the newspaper
  • here, in 1966, as a reporter. Q: So is that how you got into women’s activism?
  • Like how did you get into it, exactly? A: How I got into it was my friend Alice Embree
  • was sponsoring a Women in the Media conference. And I was still working at the American Statesman.
  • But she was involved in more alternative media, like The Rag and -- and I went to that conference
  • and just got very excited. There were a few people, including Alice, that I met. And I
  • think that it was -- it was a very huge time, of all kinds of changes, anyway. And so I
  • left the newspaper and was freer to be politically active. As long as I was on the newspaper,
  • I couldn’t even go to an antiwar demonstration, because I had to be objective --
  • Q: Did you find that -- A: And s-- I could go and I could carry a
  • little pad and take notes but I couldn’t be a participant. And once I left the newspaper,
  • that -- I felt a lot of freedom to be more politically active.
  • Q: So you just couldn’t -- did it feel like you couldn’t voice your opinion, kind of
  • thing? A: Publicly.
  • Q: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could voice my opinion. But I just -- you know, there wouldn’t -- or,
  • at least then, there was a huge effort for journalists to appear to be pretty objective
  • and not be taking any particular point of view.
  • Q: Okay. Interesting. Like, because we’ve s-- well, I was going to talk about the end
  • but -- you talked about The Rag. Like di-- I see you like write for The Rag a little
  • bit, like poems and stuff like that. A: I didn’t, back then.
  • Q: Oh, so more recently. A: But The Rag -- the people from The Rag
  • had a reunion. I think it was 2005. And out of that reunion came the idea for this Rag
  • Blog that was calling up the original Rag. But it was -- it was like a -- a new creature
  • altogether, The Rag Blog. And so Thorne, the editor, has published several of my poems
  • there. Q: Yeah. I read a few online.
  • A: Oh, you did? Q: Yeah. I can’t remember which ones they
  • were. But I remember I was like searching and I found a few online --
  • A: Oh! Q: -- The Rag online. It was quite interesting.
  • Yeah. So you were more kind of involved in the Women’s Health Organization. How did
  • -- like I’ve read the -- kind of how you got into it but how d-- exactly did you get
  • into it and what exactly was it? A: I was -- I left Austin in the beginning
  • of ’71 and moved to San Francisco. While I was in San Francisco, I lived collectively
  • and I worked collectively. And I was working with a all-women’s law firm. And they were
  • representing some midwives out of Santa Cruz, who had -- that -- (laughs) they had been
  • not a threat, as long as they were kind of like catching hippie babies out in the country
  • and whatever. But a lot of -- more middle-class women were like looking toward home birth.
  • And so they started taking some patients from the OBs (laughter) that were in town. And
  • that was when they -- I think the OBs stirred up enough trouble for them that -- the police
  • and an undercover pregnant woman to -- and basically, I imagine, entrap them into doing
  • some things that they weren’t legally allowed to do. So they had been charged. And my law
  • firm, Susan Jordan and Annie Cumming, represented them. And so that -- I got into understanding
  • a lot about the home-birth movement, as a woman’s right to have control over her own
  • body. And I think that, you know, when you hear that a lot, you think about abortion.
  • Because that has been -- Q: Than a --
  • A: -- much more in -- in the headlines. But this was seeing it from the point of view
  • of a woman has a right to give birth as she wants to. And so I got really interested in
  • the home-birth movement. And I came back to Austin and there was -- the Women’s Health
  • Organization already had been founded. Q: Yeah.
  • A: And it was just -- I can ju-- it was a wonderful -- it was all there for me, (laughs)
  • just to plug into. And so I got involved in the Women’s Health Organization.
  • Q: That’s super interesting. As you say, it’s like you mostly think about abortion,
  • when you think of women -- like health and like women’s, kind of --
  • A: Yeah. Q: -- control of [a?] body, and you don’t
  • really think of just general how does a woman -- like preg-- like giving birth and everything.
  • A: And along with that -- and I wish I -- I had some little printouts. I did a big article
  • for the newspaper then called the Austin Sun. And I couldn’t find it. I -- I mo-- when
  • I moved, I lost track of a lot of things, in -- bu-- that was one of the things that
  • I was writing about, is th-- if you wanted to have control over your body and over your
  • health, you have to start taking responsibility. So it goes hand-in-hand. And it’s -- I mean,
  • you can’t just kind of up and have a home birth.
  • Q: You have to p-- A: There’s a lot of health -- getting your
  • body in shape to do it -- and psychologically ready to do it and -- so it’s -- it’s
  • a good example, I think of women need to take more responsibility for their health if they
  • want to have the right to control (laughs) their bodies. But now that I say that out
  • loud, I guess, if you have the right to control your own body, you’ve got a right to be
  • unhealthy too. (laughs) Q: Yeah, that’s true. Definitely. (laughs)
  • Definitely. So like what ways did you encourage women to take charge of their bodies? Kind
  • of you described that. Like -- li-- I’ve read the --
  • A: The -- I think the most unique thing we did -- and wasn’t just in Austin -- I mean,
  • we -- the -- Our Bodies Ourselves came out of the Boston women’s collective [sic],
  • but that was a little bit controversial is that we taught women how to do self-cervical
  • exams. And we got kind of outrageous with it. We would have these s-- plastic speculums.
  • Q: (laughs) A: It would go, “At your cer--” we’d
  • have graphics with Superwoman going, “At your cervix.” And we would do workshops.
  • And we encourage self-breast exams, which, everybody was behind that. But the self-cervical
  • exams were pretty controversial. But we were trying to -- to teach women that, by observing
  • the -- your ow-- the changes in your own cervix, you know what’s normal and what’s not.
  • You go to a gynecologist, they’re not going to see you through every phase of your menstrual
  • cycle or change in your cervix and they’re not going to absolutely know what’s normal
  • for you. So that was the main thrust of that, was to get to know your own body, so, if there’s
  • some change that’s different, you know that. Q: Yeah, you ca-- what really surprised me
  • was the fact that there wasn’t -- in the article you sent, that there wasn’t really
  • any gynecologists like -- or people that were really willing, in Austin, to like help women
  • (laughs) like look after their bodies and everything.
  • A: There were -- I believe that’s one of the things that we probably were fairly successful
  • in doing, was we helped get a birthing center started. When I say we helped do it, I think
  • it was because the awareness that we created around it helped and there was more demand,
  • because of the awareness. I actually then did have a home birth. I came back here in
  • ’74. And I was seeing a woman. I really liked her. She was kind of new. And I d--
  • I wa-- didn’t even consider myself a candidate, because I thought I was too old, because I
  • was 33. (laughs) And -- and I already had one child. And Allison Nash was -- I knew
  • her through the Women’s Health Organization, and some other places, but -- she’d been
  • away. And she came back. And she just really -- she would take me around to home births,
  • so I could see what it was like. She really did a lot of hands-on care and education.
  • And I decided, yeah, I could. You know, my doctor had put me in bed, telling me I wasn’t
  • even pregnant, that it was some form of cancer, I mean, just -- As a lot of new doctors do
  • when they get out of medical school -- they’re like trained for disease. And so I really
  • liked her. But she was kind of off-the-wall in a lot of -- of -- and s-- I dec-- I kept
  • it a secret from her, for a long time. And then, I liked her so much, I felt like I had
  • to tell her. And I did. And she was just going, “You know I cannot come to your home.”
  • And I said, “Oh, I don’t expect you to,” you know. And she sent me a pillow corsage.
  • So even though they were scar-- doctors were afraid of lawsuits and they just couldn’t
  • possibly, at that point -- this was even lay midwifery. It wasn’t even certified nurse
  • midwifery. So I did. I had a very wonderful experience. I got to attend a lot of home
  • births. And so, even though the Women’s Health Organization -- I can’t even remember
  • when it sort of just like dissolved. And so, even though I wasn’t involved in a particular
  • organization, I think I continued with this whole d-- kind of, dedication to encouraging
  • women to have control over their own bodies. Q: Okay. Did you find -- like, because you
  • had like self-help clinics -- do you find it was a certain type of woman coming in?
  • Or was it just variation? A: I think you’d be surprised. It was a
  • pretty eclectic group. Yeah. Y-- I think I was surprised. Yeah.
  • Q: Like [your stand on the?] -- like -- A: Well, I was part [a?] very alternative
  • -- I mean, I wasn’t always, but, by that time, I was very entrenched in kind of an
  • alternative culture and -- I mean, we didn’t shave our legs. A lot of us didn’t -- just
  • didn’t see ourselves as part of the mainstream. So certainly, the Women’s Health Organization
  • and the workshops and the self-help appealed to a lot of the women in our counterculture
  • community. But the -- when we do widespread reach -- outreach -- and conduct the bigger
  • workshops, then I think there were women from all walks of life, m-- in Austin, probably
  • not racially integrated. Because Austin wasn’t racially integrated, to any extent. So you’d
  • be mostly looking at white women, whether they were counterculture or middle-class.
  • Q: Interesting, yes. Because I always like pre-- would presume that maybe it’d be like
  • college girls or maybe like -- maybe middle-class women but I didn’t really know like it would
  • have been mixed, kind of, as a whole. A: Yeah. I’m trying to remember if we -- okay.
  • One of the disadvantages of interviewing me is (laughter) that my memory is like pretty
  • slippery. It’s -- I can give you glimpses of certain things but I may not be able to
  • -- and I don’t recall that we actually attracted a lot of, say, college-aged women. That is
  • not to say we didn’t. I just don’t recall it, absolutely.
  • Q: Yeah. Okay. So did y-- l-- you’ve touched on it a bit but did you receive any like backlash
  • from people? Like wh-- if so, like what or who and what was the backlash exactly?
  • A: I don’t remember. Q: (laughs) Was there like any point, and
  • where you were kind of celebrated as a group, like the health organization?
  • A: From an external -- Q: Yeah.
  • A: Well, there was another women’s organization called Women Workers. And I think there was
  • some -- not exactly like coordination but some kind of acknowledgment or respect that
  • we were women involved in separate organizations but with the broader similar goal. We certainly
  • celebrated, ourselves. Q: (laughs)
  • A: We really had a lot of fun. Yeah. Q: Yeah, it sounded from the blog that it
  • was just a very nice, kind of women coming together to help each other.
  • A: It w-- and the focus was women’s health but, of course, women’s health is a pretty
  • broad issue, you know? And -- so there was like this one woman, Carole Jones, who was
  • a cofounder of the group, just opened up her home. And we met in her h-- that’s where
  • we had our meetings. People would sit on the floor. And it was certainly a feeling of sisterhood,
  • I think, that was pretty widespread during those days anyway. But I think, specifically,
  • when you’re talking about women’s health issues and you’re doing the self-cervical
  • exams, there is a trust and friendship that develops, maybe even more than just conscious-raising
  • groups. And we would -- like we would -- I remember, one of the women like played guitar
  • and we sang. And she’d write some songs. And there was a very well integrated sense
  • -- enjoying life, as well as doing serious work. (laughs)
  • Q: Yeah. It seems like very kind of like -- you have your like political like side of thing
  • and be also just friendship, kind of coming together. Like, in class, we’ve read like
  • quite a few sources about the fact that there was quite a few divisions in women’s movements,
  • so a lot of women being either just -- some -- kind of saying pushing people out or just
  • kind of divisions on issues and like arguments. Did you ever see that, in any of like -- the
  • Women’s Health Organization or -- A: Not in-- Women’s Health Organization.
  • But in -- in the women’s community in Austin, I think I did. I thin-- early on in the women’s
  • movement, I don’t think we made any distinction between lesbian women and heterosexual women.
  • Q: Yeah. A: I mean, we’re just women. And -- and
  • so a lot of the people I knew in my community, in the counterculture -- a lot of the women
  • either were lesbians or they made kind of political -- there were several women that
  • I knew that made just a political decision to be lesbian, in order to distance themselves
  • from men. But they kind of -- that didn’t last forever. You know. And then I do remember
  • -- by ’76, I think there had already started -- some division with the radical lesbians
  • -- is that what they call -- -- separatists, r-- lesbian separatists. And so I did experience
  • some of that division, not in the organization itself.
  • Q: [In?] the -- A: But I had -- in ’76, the home birth I
  • mentioned, I had a little boy. And I remember being at a party where somebody came up to
  • me, one of the lesbian separatists, and said -- and here I am, my newborn, and just in
  • love with him. And she said, “Well, too bad it couldn’t have been a girl.”
  • Q: Wow! A: And, you know, I just didn’t -- I never
  • -- I never thought that way, even at my most strident (laughs) women’s -- feminist rights,
  • whatever. I never -- well, already had a son. (laughter)
  • Q: So -- yeah. A: Yeah. And -- So this one was my second
  • son. So I did experience it, mm-hmm. Q: So, yeah. So is there -- Like we did a
  • bit on women’s liberation movement and -- who was it? -- Betty Friedan, like just -- just
  • how she didn’t really want the lesbian movement, in the beginning, and then later on kind of
  • accepted it. But it was just very interesting to learn about the kind of intersections of
  • how you would think that everyone would embrace the movement but it was very --
  • A: You know, done a lot of reading on -- I’m real interested in Scottish history. And one
  • of the reasons that Scotland couldn’t (laughs) retain its independence is because they had
  • all these different clans, that actually fought with each other instead of uniting against
  • a larger foe. And I’ve always seen the left sort of in that context is that some of the
  • divisions were -- it was just like we were eating ourselves, you know? And, yeah, that
  • certainly happened in the women’s movement. Q: So from a -- do you think that maybe, if
  • there hadn’t been that many, kind of, divisions, things would have happened sooner? Or just
  • you -- it’s [quite?] a hard question -- A: I don’t know.
  • Q: -- to predict? A: I just know it was kind of heartbreaking
  • to feel division, where what you -- what I wanted and I think what most everybody wanted
  • was -- really wanted unity. Q: Mm. It’s interesting, definitely. What
  • do you think were your -- the most successful achievements of the Women’s Health Organization
  • or just the women’s movement -- A: Well --
  • Q: -- as a whole? A: -- I do believe that we were able to educate
  • a lot of women about self-help. So that would be probably not as measurable, but probably
  • the best. Q: The best, yeah, [that’s achieved?] out
  • of it. A: Uh-huh. And then, like I say, I think -- I
  • don’t think Brackenridge would give us credit for it. I don’t say OBs would give us credit
  • for it. But then, getting a birthing center in the hospital was like -- I always felt
  • like it was because we raised awareness around natural birth. So that might be something
  • a little bit more measurable. But I don’t know how you would --
  • Q: How you’d -- A: -- know the i-- but I think all of us would
  • say that was true, you know? And I think that certainly -- like we would -- we would -- we
  • would encourage women to take somebody with them to the doctor, to just be a second set
  • of ears, so we c-- y-- and sometimes, when you’re in the doctor’s office, you get
  • kind of intimidated or whatever. It’s nice to have somebody else there with you, to kind
  • of help ask questions or remember the answers. So again, I think that, while may not be measurable,
  • (laughs) if you think about the kind of ways that that might change how medicine is practiced,
  • that that was a -- something that we encouraged. We also -- (laughs) we d-- I don’t do this
  • anymore. Q: (laughs)
  • A: But we would -- we would talk about just not getting under the sheet and being on the
  • table -- Q: Well, yeah.
  • A: -- so the doctor would have to see you as a whole person instead of body parts. (laughter)
  • I think I probably went through a phase where I did that.
  • Q: That’s so interesting. A: But --
  • Q: It is quite true. Like -- A: But I don’t think that was lasting, for
  • anybody -- Q: Yeah. No. (laughter)
  • A: -- really. Q: What else? So -- well, with the introduction
  • of the pill, did you see any change in -- A: With the introduction of what?
  • Q: The contraceptive pill. Did you see any change in like the women’s health movement
  • or -- A: Well, I certainly know that it was revolutionary.
  • But the women’s health movement that I was part of was so much later than the introduction
  • of the pill, that it was just taken for granted by then.
  • Q: Mm. Because I always think I never -- I did a project on it in the UK, just how much
  • it affected like the whole ’60s and the social -- because it’s very hard to measure
  • how much people [are?] having sex, obviously. So like just in general, do you think -- well,
  • the pill was obviously revolutionary to bodies. But do you think -- like because, obviously,
  • it wasn’t available to a lot of women. A: “Do you think” what?
  • Q: Was -- like it wasn’t available to a lot of women. So -- it’s just kind of a
  • -- so there -- A: It was pretty available. I mean, are you
  • talking about prohibitive because of the cost? Q: Kind of, a little bit, yeah.
  • A: I guess I never really experienced people not being able to get it. But again, I think
  • -- you know, especially the political community, we were pretty insular. While we might have
  • concerns about people who didn’t have the same income or lifestyle, I don-- I do-- we
  • -- I didn’t -- I didn’t have a lot of friends who were living in that kind of disadvantage.
  • So I know there -- at the beginning -- but again, this is, I think, long before I got
  • involved with women’s health -- that doctors were -- you kind of had to go in and pretend
  • you were engaged. Doctors were reluctant to just hand it out. But that wasn’t -- that
  • wasn’t true for every doctor. But I did know of women who had to do that. Yeah.
  • Q: That’s interesting. [It’s?] -- not sure what else you -- so I have a few questions
  • but I’m not sure [whether?] you care about them. Were your -- because you got involved
  • -- like were your parents supportive of your like involvement in women’s activism and
  • the health -- health organization? A: No.
  • Q: Oh, really? (laughs) A: They were very -- of humble origins. They
  • lived most of their lives in a small town, or even smaller towns nearby. And I think
  • my left turn into the counterculture and into radical politics was very distressing for
  • [them?]. Q: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, can imagine. With your
  • like [left-end?] politics, what other things were you -- were you involved in? What other
  • things were you involved in, other than like the women’s health movement an--
  • A: Just -- I don’t -- I can’t tell you any particular, maybe -- but like, in San
  • Francisco I worked -- well, first of all, just me going to San Francisco and taking
  • my son with me was traumatic for them. And I worked in a collective called Peoples Press.
  • And then the law firm I later worked in was like two women who consciously did criminal
  • defense work and consciously -- consciously defended people -- not -- not exclusively
  • -- but they really wanted to be lawyers to people who had been arrested in some connection
  • with political activity. And so, again, that wasn’t a formal organization but it was
  • kind of living that politics, you know. There was -- also, in San Francisco, several of
  • us did a bread-and-soup lunch at the downtown women’s -- YWCA -- as a way to do outreach
  • to working women. And we didn’t -- I mean, we just provided the food. And I think it
  • was just -- like I don’t think we did it free but it was -- didn’t cost very much.
  • And then we just had a lot of literature that we could talk to women about, antiwar, anti-imperialism,
  • you know, a broad range of subjects. Q: Yeah. That’s interesti-- it’s always
  • -- we read an article in class from The Rag about the women’s sit-in, about the -- [against?]
  • the draft. And I just find it quite interesting, as I -- just kind of the intersection of like
  • -- against like the war and then women’s -- getting involved in that and everything.
  • I just found that really interesting -- A: It was --
  • Q: -- to like read about. A: -- there -- yeah -- it was -- it was -- like
  • you may have had interest in -- in moving in one direction, particularly. But it was
  • pretty -- when I use the word “integrated,” again, I’m not talking about racial integration.
  • But I think all of those movements were pretty concentric, that people who were involved
  • in the women’s health movement were generally involved in antiwar demonstrations.
  • Q: Okay. Did you -- have you got any like stories about any demonstrations or any kind
  • of thing? Not really sure but -- (laughs) A: Well, like I say, I remember the first
  • time I was able to demonstrate instead of just observe. And that was pretty exhilarating.
  • Q: Wo-- A: That was here in Austin. I reme-- soon
  • after I moved to San Francis-- things were kind of heavier in San Francisco. And it was
  • a demonstration against Shell Oil, I believe. And the police were on horseback, chasing
  • us and dispersing us. And I was running. And I re-- (laughs) like, I used to wear cowgirl
  • boots all the time. Well, stupidly, I’d worn them to the demonstration, instead of
  • some nice running shoes. (laughter) And I do re-- this -- I mean, this stands out, that
  • I slipped and fell. And there was a policeman with a billy club leaning over me. And I could
  • see his mind going, “This is a woman. Am I going to hit her? Yeah, I think I will.”
  • (laughs) Q: Oh, my Go--
  • A: And so he -- Q: Wow!
  • A: -- he didn’t hit me in the head. He whacked me on the thigh. But that was -- that was
  • jus-- it stuck with me how -- Q: Yeah.
  • A: It was like I could tell he wasn’t sure he wanted to hit me, and then he did. (laughter)
  • Q: He finally did, yeah. Do you fi-- do you think the demonstrations for women’s rights
  • and like liberation chan-- have changed over time or do you think they’re still kind
  • of the same? A: Oh, I think they’re different -- think
  • they’re different. Q: How so, do you think, maybe?
  • A: I think we have a broader base, both -- it’s multigenerational, probably, more. I think
  • it’s certainly better integrated racially. I think people are just agog that we’re
  • having to fight for some of the same things all over again.
  • Q: Yeah. I -- the -- very surprising, just --
  • A: It’s just unbelievable. I had an illegal abortion in 1966. So I know what it’s like
  • when abortion (laughs) is illegal. Women will do whatever they have to do.
  • Q: Yeah. It’s just a scary kind of thought, that --
  • A: Yeah. Q: -- still happening.
  • A: It’s appalling. Q: Yeah, it’s horrible!
  • A: Yeah. Yeah. Q: It’s dreadful.
  • A: Y-- Q: Have a look. Anything else you’d particularly
  • like to talk about or [questions about?] -- A: No. I’m just happy to try to answer your
  • questions. (laughter) Q: I’m like not sure what other questions
  • I have. Quite hard to come up with them. (pause) So you said there was like the dissolutio--
  • c-- you can’t remember when like it dissolved. But like was there --
  • A: I do-- Q: -- really a time where it -- like why you
  • think it maybe dissolved? A: Well, I think a lot of things started kind
  • of unraveling. And then -- I mean, one cohesive thing was the war. We had something big to
  • be against. Q: So it just kind of got left behind.
  • A: And so I think, when -- that there was a lot of loss of momentum in the movement
  • in general. I wish I could remember more specifically about the Women’s Health Organization. I
  • just really can’t. I know -- I had that baby. And I probably just personally was less
  • involved in things than I had been. Because I was like trying to be a perfect mother.
  • I hadn’t been a perfect mother the first time, so I wanted to be a perfect mother the
  • second time. And so a lot of me not remembering and being specific has to do with me sort
  • of curtailing a lot of my activity. Q: Yeah. Do you feel like, just in general
  • -- did the women’s movement pick up after the war? Was it kind of just slowed down or
  • just general disappeared, until more recent time?
  • A: I think it may have just changed. I don’t know. I think there were some -- I mean, women
  • were -- I mean, there were h-- there was headway. You know, like there were very few women in
  • the law school, when my friends went to law school, you know. And -- and so you saw more
  • women lawyers. You saw more women doctors. And so I th-- I’m not going to say it was
  • an illusion. But there was some feeling li-- a lot of headway was being made when there
  • was a lot that wasn’t. Q: Wasn’t much -- so it was k-- yeah, kind
  • of an illusion, like, I suppose, in some way, (laughs) quite similar to today, a little
  • bit. A: Well, I don’t think we ever had a president
  • that said, “Grab ’em by the pussy” -- Q: No.
  • A: -- before. Q: Yeah, definitely. (laughs) Very, very shocking.
  • A: (laughs) So, yeah, there -- there have been trials and tribulations but I don’t
  • think that it ever sunk to that level. Q: Wow. Yeah.
  • A: And it was beautiful to see all of the -- the women come together -- you know? -- around
  • that. And -- Q: That was amazing to see.
  • A: -- you see all this ju-- I mean, we’re inundated right now with the exposure of sexual
  • abuse and harassment. That’s pretty amazing too.
  • Q: Mm. Like the -- [so?], recently, the #MeToo campaign.
  • A: Hm? Q: The #MeToo campaign? Was quite --
  • A: Yeah. Yeah. Q: Yeah.
  • A: Yeah. And just to know that -- I mean, I d-- I did see
  • a couple of people I thought were just jumping on the bandwagon. I m-- I didn’t agree with
  • the actress who was calling on a 92-year-old George H. Bush for putting his hand on her
  • butt, you know? Q: Yeah.
  • A: That was no-- it was -- she called it sexual assault. So there have been some exceptions.
  • But they’re very, very few -- Q: So --
  • A: -- that most of these accusations are really egregious and they’re very authentic. And
  • to -- I mean, m-- women know (laughs) that this has been going on. And for it to be exposed
  • is ju-- I mean, I never thought it would happen. Q: No.
  • A: So that’s really wonderful, you know, that it’s -- it’s getting some sunlight
  • on it. Q: Mm. Definitely. I thought that too, it
  • was quite incredible. But it’s quite incredible that some people waited so -- like -- well,
  • I suppose they could [eventual-- know this?] but they’re -- it’s been going on for
  • so long and like nothing was ever said. A: It’s being said now.
  • Q: Mm. It’s all coming out. A: Yeah. (laughs)
  • Q: Definitely. Back to the kind of -- did you -- and so you’ve mentioned it. Did you
  • ever find there was anyone that kind of -- not so ruined wha-- the mo-- like the movements
  • but kind of just didn’t really -- like took a w-- kind of gave it bad attention, maybe?
  • Did you ever find that was ever a situation? Or any attention was, kind of, good attention,
  • I would think. A: (pause) Specifically for the Women’s
  • Health Organization, I don’t remember that. Although it would be plausible to me that
  • the doctors didn’t like us. I don’t remember anybody ever trying to curtail our activity.
  • I think, in general, you know, people would make degrading remarks about hippies, long-haired,
  • dirty. So, yeah, there was a lot of negative reaction, I thin-- in general, if that’s
  • what you mean. Yeah. Mm-hmm. One thing I did want to -- this is not on this subject -- but
  • I did want to kind of say is that, the first time I was pregnant, I was 19 and I was just
  • like obstinate. I was un-- there was no such thing as a single mom, back then. You were
  • “unwed.” And my parents had kicked me out of the house. Had to find someplace to
  • live. And, by God, I was going to have that baby. (laughs) And so I did. But then I ended
  • up being a single mom, with all three of my kids. Although I had been married, it didn’t
  • line up like that. And -- so I think certainly the support of friends and the -- the strength
  • of the women’s movement was like a huge part of me being able to do that. And I also
  • think that, even though maybe I became less of an activist, that I was sort of living
  • it by being a single mom. You know? Q: Yeah, definitely. Because it’s qui--
  • yeah, it’s quite interesting. [So it’s?] --
  • A: And all three of them have a college education. (laughs) All three of them have stable jobs
  • and relationships. So I consider that like a huge -- (laughter)
  • Q: Huge success? A: Uh-huh. I remember when my son -- my middle
  • son was in high school and he would give me a hard time about his friend’s mom. “[Judy?]
  • does this for us,” and “Judy does that.” And I’m (laughs) just going, “You know
  • what? My class is single mom. You cannot compare me to Judy, because she is like a stay-at-home
  • mom, whose husband brings in millions of dollars. You can’t compare me to that,” you know.
  • And when you think about the class of single moms -- of course, I have a lot of white privilege
  • -- whatever. To have all three kids with college degrees, that’s not -- not your average
  • single mom. Q: Pretty amazing, yeah.
  • A: Yeah. And the fact that I did it time and time agai-- I mean, the first time, I didn’t
  • know what I was doing -- just like dumb and stupid. But I wanted that baby. (laughs) And
  • -- but I certainly knew what I was getting into, the second time and the third time.
  • And I couldn’t -- I don’t think I could have done it without that kind of support.
  • Q: Yeah, so -- even though you’ve said li-- you -- so you didn’t really -- did you ever
  • feel there was a pressure on you from just society to be like, a prefect -- the -- envisioned
  • -- like what a mother should be? Or were you -- because of the women’s movement, the
  • support, you were wha-- the mum you wanted to be? (laughs)
  • A: (pause) I -- I don’t think I felt external pressure about being -- I think that was kind
  • of coming from me, wanting to be -- I mean, m-- finally, in therapy, my therapist (laughs)
  • worked with me to say, “I’m a good enough mother,” not to have this goal of being
  • a good mother but -- Q: Yeah.
  • A: I think that was mostly coming from inside me. And -- and I do know that, even within
  • the community, and the support I got, that it was still s-- a stigma. And even as a si--
  • even single -- I think even being single is a s-- you know, our whole society is set up
  • for couples. And so, yeah, there was -- I never was ashamed of it. But I do think it
  • was a -- there was some feeling of like not fitting in or being different or --
  • Q: Mm. Actually, one question that we didn-- do you think, because you -- the mo-- and
  • health was more -- your -- well, your movement in health was more kind of giving birth, taking
  • charge of bodies through like cerv-- like through cervix checks and like breast-cancer
  • checks, like it wasn’t focused on kind of abortion and stuff like that -- did you thi--
  • do you think you received less like backlash, because of that, kind of thing? Because you
  • actually didn-- A: Well, we -- we certainly advocated for
  • a woman’s right to decide to have an abortion. We didn’t have abortion counseling. Now
  • I -- I forgot to tell you thi-- I then went on to -- became a prenatal counselor at the
  • people’s clinic, for two different times in my life. And so there was some abortion
  • counseling then. Y-- I mean, you wanted a woman -- these were women -- it was a free
  • clinic. I mean, so -- [phone rings] the clientele were people who didn’t have a whole lot
  • of money. Do you mind if I just see what that is?
  • Q: Yeah. A: I’m s--
  • Q: Fine. I can pull this. A: (pause) Okay. I’m helping my son with
  • some of his business. And it was his assistant. He’s just going to drop it off at the mailbox.
  • Q: (laughs) A: I don’t have to do anything. Good. Sorry.
  • (laughs) Q: That’s fine.
  • A: I don’t even know where we were. Q: Where were we? Thi-- like abortion and
  • like the backlash. A: Oh.
  • Q: Yeah. A: The -- so -- I just -- I don’t remember.
  • Q: It’s fine. A: I really don’t remember that we came
  • under any threats. At the wo-- at the people’s clinic, w-- I mean, we tried to -- if a woman
  • was pregnant -- Q: Give her --
  • A: -- to offer all different kinds of -- Q: Yeah, everything.
  • A: -- of -- like, if she neede-- if she wanted an abortion, try to refer her to some --
  • Q: Yeah. A: Or if she wanted to come in for prenatal
  • care, then we provided that. I don’t remember any specific threats or ill treatment. I think
  • certainly we felt we were going against the grain --
  • Q: Yeah. [I think?] -- A: -- in general.
  • Q: Yeah, definitely. A: Uh-huh. But I d-- I don’t have any specifics.
  • Q: Okay. A: Sorry. (laughter)
  • Q: That’s fine! I’m trying to think what other questions I have. I think I’ve gone
  • through them all. If there’s anything you’d particularly like to discuss or -- anything?
  • I think that’s all my questions -- I think. A: Do you -- were you asking me if I had anything
  • else? Q: Yeah.
  • A: I don’t. That was -- tha-- I remembered that one thing I kind of wanted to get -- to
  • talk about, was like living the women’s activism by living --
  • Q: Thr-- A: -- life as a single parent, you know.
  • Q: Yeah, very like -- just in general -- because obviously, they’re campaigning for all this.
  • And you’re actually living -- A: Right.
  • Q: -- the situation. Yeah. It’s very interesting. A: Mm-hmm. And I just -- I mean, I have a
  • daughter. I finally had a daughter. And I see her feeling like she is discriminated
  • against in her work some. I shouldn’t say too much about it, because it’s her life,
  • not mine. But it’s like she certainly has a much easier time as a woman, today, having
  • a career and having respect for her career. But she’s also just scrambling to try to
  • raise her kids and have a career. And that much hasn’t (laughs) really changed, you
  • know? Q: Yeah. I was just about to ask, do you think
  • like there’s a lot that’s changed since that time, of being a mother then, and being
  • a mother now? A: No. I s-- I see -- I see the young women
  • today just having to make -- well, how I felt about myself was that I was never really very
  • good in my career or my (laughs) parenthood, because I was -- but, of cour-- I don’t
  • think that’s really true. But you feel that way, because you’re so divided --
  • Q: Mm. The -- A: -- if you really -- if you really have
  • a job that you want to throw yourself into and that makes a lot of demands on you and
  • then -- I mean, I missed her first day of kindergarten.
  • Q: Mm. You’re ver-- it’s very kind of -- Yeah.
  • A: Because of my job! Q: Yeah.
  • A: Uh-huh. Yeah. Q: You’re between being a working woman,
  • providing for your family, or being with your family, kind of thing.
  • A: Right. Yeah. And so th-- I d-- I think -- now, she does have a very helpful spouse.
  • So -- Q: Yeah.
  • A: -- so she has -- sh-- and she realized -- she says to me, “Mom, I don’t know
  • how you did it. I don’t know how you did it.” I always go, “Not very well.” (laughter)
  • So she does have a lot of help. But even then -- yeah.
  • Q: It’s still -- yeah -- still hard. A: Uh-huh. Yeah.
  • Q: Definitely. (laughs) Well, I have no more questions, unless y-- as I said, anything
  • in particular you want to talk about or anything, that --
  • A: No, I don’t. I hope I’ve been able to help you --
  • Q: Yeah! A: -- a little bit.
  • Q: Definitely! Definitely. Answered all my questions. Yeah.
  • A: Good. Q: Thank you. Just stop this.