Part of: Pamiel Johnson Gaskin oral history (3 objects)
Pamiel Johnson Gaskin oral history - Pamiel Johnson Gaskin oral history
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- Brittney Garza: So, tell us how you got to UT Austin. What was it like for your first
- years there? Pamiel Johnson Gaskin: Okay, that's a lot
- of questions, but the way I got there is quite interesting. I didn't want to go there. I
- was accepted at the University of Pennsylvania in a writing program, but my dad told me I
- was going to the University of Texas. I said, "Well, I didn't apply there." He said, "Well,
- you're going to." So I did. Because in those days you didn't really question your parents.
- You did what they said. And I said, "I'll apply, but I'm not going." And he said, "Well,
- let me tell you why you're going. When I tell you why you're going we're not going to discuss
- it anymore." I said, "Okay." He said, "In 1946, your mother and I were helping organize
- the NAACP in Texas. We were in Austin for an organizational meeting. Your mom was pregnant.
- We walked every day. So, we walked up Congress Ave, and we walked onto the campus of the
- university. Out of nowhere, came a police officer with a gun pointed at your mother's
- stomach, and said, "Niggers are not allowed on this campus." And he kept the gun pointed
- at us until we got off campus." PJG He said, "When I got off campus, I put
- my hand on your mother's belly, and I said, "This baby is going to this school.""
- BG: Oh my gosh! PJG "So the baby was you, and you're going."
- BG: Oh, that's incredible! PJG That's how I came to go to the University
- of Texas. So, he prepared me because this was in 1965. The university had only been
- open undergraduate to black students since '56. So it wasn't even ten years and there
- weren't maybe a hundred black students out of 38,000. Dorms weren't integrated. We stayed
- in... do you all know where the communications school is?
- BG: Yeah. PJG Right now on Whitis Ave?
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative) PJG At that site were two framed houses. Whitis
- Co-op and Almetris Co-op were right there and all the black female undergraduates stayed
- in one of those two houses. So, you know, long story short, that's how I got there.
- I started. I didn't want to be there. I will confess I had a headache the entire three
- and a half years that I was there. (laughter) But, I came to love it afterward because of
- the experience. The experience showed me some more about myself than it did other people.
- So, my brother followed me. He was seven years younger, but he went to the University. My
- sister, who was between us, went to the University of Michigan. But, you know, I decided I would
- major in English because my favorite teacher in high school was an English major and she
- took us to all sorts... she took us to the Alley Theater and, you know, she exposed us
- to a lot of things. BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
- PJG And I like to write. And writing was my passion. So I wrote little poems and you know,
- little short stories. I'd make up stuff, and so I wanted to be a writer. And, that's why
- I wanted to go to the University of Pennsylvania. They had probably at that time one of the
- best writing schools in the country and I was fortunate enough to get in. They accepted
- my portfolio of work and admitted me to that program. So, you know, I felt like I gave
- up a lot to go to the University of Texas and you know, I listen to kids who, you know,
- "If I don't get into UT I'm going to die," you know. And you would watch the sorority
- girls and if they didn't get in their chosen Phi Gamma Chi, "Oh! I'm just going to pack
- it up and go!", and I'm like, "Ugh!" (laughter) "You want to be here?" Now I did have an English
- professor -- I don't remember his name, but it was American Literature and he called the
- University the Sorbonne of the Southwest. BG: The what?
- PJG The Sorbonne of the Southwest. And we just kind of all would all just sit there
- and go... ? BG: Yeah.
- PJG You know? Sure. But anyway, so my first years were great. My first couple of years
- were... I joined a sorority. I joined Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority. I pledged that my second
- semester. Made some lifelong friends. We raised a lot of hell though. We were politically
- and socially active. BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
- PJG Our graduate advisor in the sorority was a woman named Wilhelmina Delco. Now if you've
- been in Austin anytime, you've probably seen the Delco Center for this...
- BG: Yes PJG There's a lot of stuff named after her.
- She was the first African-American elected to the school board in Austin. I had the privilege
- of working in her campaign. She taught us how to campaign...
- BG: Yeah PJG ... and that was one of our sorority projects
- that we worked on her campaign to help her get elected. We learned a lot about being
- politically active. We also used to go and protest at the movie theater on the Drag.
- We'd line up, we'd get to the window, and she'd say, "You know we can't sell you a ticket."
- And we'd say, "Okay," and we'd go back and get in line and this would just go on and
- on. So we used to, you know, we did a lot of that stuff. But my favorite activist thing
- that we did... We went to see Darrell Royal to ask him when he was going to recruit some
- African American football players, and he put his feet up on the desk and said, "As
- long as the alumni don't want niggers, I won't be recruiting any." And we said, "Okay, we'll
- see you at the game Saturday." So we left, and we went and made us some signs and we
- went to the game. And this is the only one that I attended inside the whole time I was
- there... inside Memorial Stadium. BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
- PJG We went to this game... I don't even know who was playing...
- BG: Yeah. PJG And we had made our little signs and we
- had them rolled up and we spotted where the TV cameras were. Because they were always
- near the student section. And at an opportune moment, we held up our signs, and one of them
- said, "Bevo needs soul!" BG: Yeah.
- PJG And the other one said, "Orange and White needs Black." And the Texas Rangers came and
- escorted fourteen of us out of the stadium. They literally put us out of the stadium.
- So, that was my favorite. BG: That's awesome!
- PJG (Laughter) It was just great, you know? Let's see, I went to jail once, about six
- of us went to jail for a protest at the barber shop. It was a barber shop on the Drag. They
- wouldn't cut black guys' hair. BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
- PJG So we went up there and anyways, that was our badge of honor.
- BG: Yeah. PJG But, you know, those were the types of
- things that we did. But we also did... we worked with our sorority sisters at Huston-Tillotson
- and we did a breakfast program for low income children. Every Saturday we would serve...
- make, prepare, and serve breakfast. And sometimes we paid for the eggs and bacon and everything
- else out of our pockets. Which we didn't have money out of our pockets, but you know, you
- share what you have. BG: Yeah.
- PJG But we would have, you know, breakfast for them at a community center over in East
- Austin, or usually, actually it was at Wesley United Methodist Church. We would do it there.
- So, you know, we thought we were doing some good work in the community. And that was satisfactory
- for us. BG: Yeah.
- PJG Mrs. Almetris Marsh Duren was our house mother and she was like a mom to us.
- BG: Yeah. PJG One of the terrible experiences, the worst
- experience I had, well, let me back up. Before I went my dad took me here to Rev. William
- Lawson. I don't know if you all have heard of him. He was the Senior Pastor at Miller
- Avenue Baptist Church, which is a historic Baptist church here. Because my dad was involved
- in the Civil Rights Movement, he knew all these people. And we lived in [inaudible 00:10:05],
- which was about 40 miles from here. BG: Yeah.
- PJG But he and Rev. Lawson were friends and you know, Rev. Lawson was involved in the
- NAACP and all of this. Well, he used to teach non-violence classes to students who would
- go sit in at the lunch counters and all of this. So my daddy took me and put me before
- I went to the university. He enrolled me in Rev. Lawson's class on non-violent protests.
- And I'm like, "Ugh!" He said, "Well you have a bad temper, so I'm sending you up there
- to school and I don't intend you get put out of school because you couldn't control yourself."
- That's probably the best thing that ever happened to me. And I went unwillingly, but I went.
- And you know, they were pushing us in this training, and you know calling 'nigger, nigger,
- nigger', and I'm like, "Nobody gonna do that to me!" Because, see back then, we lived in
- segregated communities. BG: Yeah.
- PJG So I was a cherished child. I was a smart little girl. At church, "Oh, she's going to
- do great things!". You know, I was the apple of my daddy's eye, so who's going to say something
- mean to me? BG: Right.
- PJG You know? Because I had gone to black schools and black church, and you know my
- life was in the black community. I had no real interactions with people of other colors.
- So he sent me to this and one of the things he taught us was keep your cool. Maintain
- your composure, and remember that the people who do these things are bullies.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG And the thing that a bully fears the most
- is another bully. So if someone gets in your face you get in their face. You don't touch
- them [crosstalk 00:12:19], but... BG: Right.
- PJG If they call you a nigger, you just say loud, "Get out of my way!"
- BG: Yeah. PJG They'll do it.
- BG: Right. PJG So, okay. Well, I've been at UT three
- weeks coming out of Vance Hall, which is where the English department was. I don't know where
- it is now. But, coming out of Vance Hall and this white girl came up and jumped in my face,
- spit on me. So I got spit coming down the side of my face...
- BG: Yeah. PJG And she says, "You niggers need to go
- back to Africa! Why do you want to be here with us?" I thought about that, and I was
- holding some books... BG: Yeah.
- PJG And I said, "Get out of my face!" And she did...
- BG: Yeah. PJG And it was just enough for me to start
- walking. Well, the other thing he taught us was that if someone spits on you, your instinct
- is to do this. BG: Right.
- PJG He said that acknowledges the act. The thing that they hate is for us not to acknowledge
- a hateful act. So here I am with this spit and my knees are doing this...
- BG: Yeah. PJG And you know what Vance Hall is, so I
- had to come up those old steps and across the mall headed toward Whitis Avenue. Which,
- you know, it's a nice little walk. BG: Yeah.
- PJG I got to where the chemistry building was.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG Which was near the academic center, and
- I couldn't go any further. My legs wouldn't take me. I was just overcome and I slid, I
- leaned against a wall, and I slid down and I was sitting on the ground just boo-hooing.
- No one ever talked to me or called me that word to my face. You know? Now I knew that
- folks did that, but I was shielded from it. So I bet I sat there for 15 minutes crying
- and not one person stopped to say, "Are you OK?" That was the tragedy of it. Not that
- I sat there and cried, but that nobody, not one single soul, "Are you okay?"
- BG: Yeah. PJG So I get to Almetris co-op and Miss Duren
- hugs me and [inaudible 00:15:24] oh baby, you know, and I said, "I'm gonna call my daddy."
- (laughter) So I called home collect. I said, "You have to come get me. I can't go to school."
- And he said, "What happened?" and I told him. My dad was a labor union organizer.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG He was a tough guy. He took no crap from
- anybody including his children. Okay? I said, "Daddy, I can't." He said, "She spit on you?"
- I said, "Yeah.". He said, "Well you know what? This is probably the worst thing that's going
- to happen to you the whole time you're going to be there."
- BG: Yeah PJG He said, "Suck it up." (laughter) And
- I'm like, "Ahhhh!" I hung up the phone. The rest is history. And it actually was the worst
- thing that happened to me the whole time that I was there. But, you know, that was it. But
- you know, high points? I didn't go back. Something that I wish I had done, but I didn't. I refused
- to go back for my graduation because we didn't have mid-term graduations.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG So I completed all of my requirements...
- BG: Yeah. PJG In the fall semester of '68 and my degree
- says January 1969, but we didn't have mid-year graduations.
- BG: Right. PJG And I just didn't want to go back to a
- tin commencement. I remember we were sitting at my brother's commencement in 1976 and my
- dad says, "Hmmm, look at this, Allen Johnson the Third. Magna Cum Laude. How did you graduate?"
- (laughter) I said, "[inaudible 00:17:26]" You know, and I'm like, "But does it matter?
- Because he doesn't have a shiny star on his degree either." (laughter) So, you know, but
- anyway. I do regret not going back for my commencement.
- BG: Talking about the moment when you were coming out of Vance Hall, do you think that
- was kind of pivotal for you in like getting involved in like activism and stuff like that?
- PJG Yes, BG: Yeah.
- PJG Because I'd only been there three weeks. BG: Yeah.
- PJG And I was still trying to find my way to a building called the BEB.
- BG: Yeah. PJG You know, I don't know if you all know
- about that. But it's the Business Economics Building, and it's where the business school
- used to be. But they had a big auditorium and I took a history class with Lynda Bird
- Johnson and her secret service were there in class and she had a whole row to herself.
- And her name was Lynda Johnson and my name was Pam Johnson and we had to sit alphabetically.
- So guess what? She had a row, and then I was the next person. So one day I told her. I
- said, "Well, hello cousin!" (laughter) We got to know the Secret Service agents, and
- you know, it was real cool! BG: Wow!
- PJG And she was really a nice chick. But I was still at that point... you asked me was
- that a turning point?... Yes it was. It inspired my activism. I kind of grew up in activism,
- but I was never... BG: You'd never been exposed...
- PJG Right. I mean I went to my share of demonstrations and stuff.
- BG: Right. PJG But I was never involved to the point
- of planning and executing. BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
- PJG That, oh yeah, I said, "Something's got to change because we are people and we are
- here." There were only I thing, the entire time I was there, there were never more than
- 125 African Americans. And that's undergraduate and graduate.
- BG: Yeah. PJG So, we used to have a little saying that
- if you see a black person walking across campus you better speak to them, because you may
- not see another one for two weeks. BG: Yeah
- PJG (Laughter) BG: That's crazy!
- PJG And, you know, now I'll go back and it's a great melting pot.
- BG: Yeah. So you rushed Alpha Kappa Alpha? Is that what it was?
- PJG Mm-hmm (affirmative)- BG: I didn't know, so how long has that been
- on campus when you were there? PJG That chapter was chartered in 1959. 60
- years ago on May 14. BG: So it was still fairly new when you were
- there? PJG Yeah.
- BG: Yeah. PJG Well, the chapter was.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Right. PJG The sorority itself dates back to 1908.
- BG: Yeah. PJG Yeah.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG So we were the first African American
- sorority founded at Howard University. But yeah, it and, we were the first African American
- sorority at UT. BG: We had talked about in class, just, you
- know there was really no way for African American students to really get involved in any way.
- PJG Mm-hmm (affirmative)- BG: In any social aspect...
- PJG Right, and that was it. BG: Right.
- PJG And that was it. BG: And we were saying the sororities never
- allowed any black people in... PJG Right.
- BG: To have that for you, was that like... PJG It was great. It was great because, again,
- my teachers in high school, most of the teachers that I admired the most were members of Alpha
- Kappa Alpha sorority. They gave me a scholarship. BG: That's awesome.
- PJG And now don't laugh, don't cry when I tell you this, but I got a $500 scholarship.
- A $500 scholarship paid my tuition and fees for two years.
- BG: That's crazy! Oh my gosh! PJG Yeah! (laughter)
- BG: Wow! PJG Our tuition was like $127, $128 a semester.
- BG: Wow! PJG Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's how, and
- I admired those ladies and wanted to be like them, so that's why I rushed AKA.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG And I have been a member for 53 years.
- So hopefully, well we'll be celebrating our sixtieth year on campus...
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG ... this year. I think in September.
- BG: So being in that sorority, that's really where you got involved in activism?
- PJG Well, yeah. We also started the Negro Action Club. It's been so long... it was the
- Negro Action something... I can't remember. But we started that. Rodney Griffin who started
- at the same time I did. We were in the same class. Linda Jann Lewis was one of my sorority
- line sisters. Linda went on to be the, when Bob Bullock was lieutenant governor, she was
- his chief of staff. So a lot of us just kind of stayed active.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG But yeah, a lot of that came from being
- in the sororities and in the communities. But also just because we all lived together
- and played together. We were at the church together. We didn't have cars. We used to
- walk across Interregional to go to church on Sunday, but we were all thin! No fat on
- us. So, yep, that was it! BG: We also had watched a video in class about
- the protest with the movie theater on the Drag. We watched a bunch, you know, just interviewing
- people who started those protests and that were there for those. You said that you had
- joined those... PJG Mm-hmm (affirmative).
- BG: ... as well. Did you enjoy that? Was that fun? Because those videos were so cool!
- PJG It was great! (laughter) BG: Yeah. Yeah.
- PJG We had a ball! One of the girls, Cheryl Griffin...
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG ... goes to church with me now. She lives
- here. Her brother Rodney, as I said, Cheryl was older than we were. So Cheryl was the
- one whose name is on the lawsuit that desegregated the dormitories.
- BG: Oh really? PJG Mm-hmm (affirmative).
- BG: That's awesome! PJG Now Cheryl never pledged a sorority.
- BG: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- PJG But she was the big sister that we all
- looked up to. You know, if she said, "We're going downtown to Woolworth's to sit at the
- counter," we said, "Okay, yes ma'am." BG: That's very cool.
- Sasha Davy: So did you live on campus when you were at UT?
- PJG Mm-hmm (affirmative). SD: But there weren't many African Americans
- like living on campus, It was just kind of like just you by yourself?
- PJG We were in these two white framed houses. There were like 12 in one and 20 girls in
- the other. And then Grace Hall had just desegregated and I think there were two girls in Grace
- Hall. Shirley Tennyson and somebody else. Then the next year '66, everything was open.
- So we had a lot of folks who lived in Ken Sullivan. We had, I said a lot, five or six.
- Let's see. I had a cousin who came in '66, Sharon, and she lived in the dorm that didn't
- have air conditioning, but it was over on the same side of Whitis as Kinsolving. But
- we were all there and there wasn't that many of us. Remember, 125 grads, undergrads, men,
- and women. So at any given time there were more women than men, so there were probably
- 75 women and 25 or 30 men. SD: Yeah.
- PJG So, Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity, they had a house. They had a frat house. So a lot of
- those guys lived there. So guys that weren't in that frat, because it was the only one,
- lived in the old athletic dormitory. Not the new athletic, the old athletic dormitory.
- It was an old Army barracks. SD: So since there were so few African American
- students, how did you guys get together to go protest?
- PJG Oh, well we were together every day. Understand this. We got called nigger everyday by somebody.
- A car driving by. One of our big sisters, Betty Devereux, who was a brilliant mathematician,
- came home from the first day of class (when I was a freshman she was a sophomore), and
- was told she had to change... the professor told her he wanted to see her after class.
- She was the only black person in the class. He said, "Well you're going to have to change
- classes because I don't teach niggers. And they can't do anything to me because I'm tenured."
- Which was true. This was affecting her ability to graduate, you know? We had these, you know
- folks today talk about micro-aggressions? We had macro-aggressions.
- SD: Yeah. PJG Multiple times a day, every day. So you
- ask how did we get together? Everybody came to our Almetris co-op, men and women, and
- we sat in that living room and we were a family. SD: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
- PJG And we bolstered each other up. We cried, we laughed, we told jokes. So I mean we didn't
- come together to say specifically, "On Tuesday we're going to plan our protest." No.
- SD: Yeah. PJG The protests grew out of our shared experiences.
- So, like I had an English teacher who, we had the Dean of the School of Liberal Arts,
- College of Arts and Sciences, was a man named John Silber. Dean Silber went on to become
- president of Boston University... SD: Wow.
- PJG ... when he left UT, but he was Dean of Arts and Sciences. I had a job on campus,
- I worked in his office. I had an English class. And all we had to do was five papers and our
- final paper counted for fifty percent. SD: I'm so sorry, I'm going to have to interrupt.
- Do you want to come inside so we can like, hear better?
- PJG Sure.