AEJMC Trailblazers of Diversity Interview with Peter Bhatia

  • Speaker 1: So today is Wednesday, August,  
  • the eighth 2018. My name is Rochelle Ford and I  will be interviewing Peter Bhatia for the A he JMC  
  • diversity oral history interview project. Thank  you, Peter, for joining us today for my interview.  
  • And we will get to know you a little bit better  and know that this video will be housed in the  
  • A e. j. MC archives at Columbia, South Carolina,  or at the Wisconsin Historical Society in Madison,  
  • Wisconsin. And we will also post the interview  on the internet. Oh, boy. So we'll begin and just  
  • have a little understanding about your early  years. And so can you tell me a little bit  
  • about how you got interested in journalism?  And what inspired you to enter this field?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of it  
  • has to do with the way I was raised. My father,  who was a university professor and administrator  
  • actually taught me to read with the newspaper. And  I would sit on his lap, but he'd have the paper.  
  • And in those days, I think we subscribed to two  or three papers in the, in the college town in  
  • eastern Washington, where I grew up and where  he was on the faculty. And so newspapers were  
  • part of my life, as long as I could remember. And,  and, you know, I knew all the sports cliches and  
  • you know that in those days, members of Congress  were called salons and things like that. But it  
  • just, you know, the ink got in my blood early. And  when I was 12 years old, I actually put that in  
  • quotation marks, and a neighborhood newspaper that  I wrote little stories about what my buddies and I  
  • were doing, and actually probably broke copyright  laws by taking wire stories out of local paper to  
  • sort of fill it out. And my dad ran it off on  a digital Master, which talks about historical  
  • relics, right in his office at the university,  and I took copies of it around the neighborhood.  
  • And I don't think I had any revenue associated  with it. So clearly, I was destined to be a new  
  • side guy. And but you know, I did. I don't really  remember how many editions of it thankfully, as  
  • far as I know, no copies of it survived. But I'm  sure they got thrown out in some house cleaning at  
  • some point after I went to college or something.  So it's been, it's been pardon me for a long time.
  • Speaker 1: That's fascinating  
  • that you had your own newspaper at 12.  Do you? Are there any stories that you  
  • remembered? Or that there was something  that you wanted to cover? deliver?
  • 02:53 Speaker 2: No, I mean, I just wrote, you know, frankly,  
  • fairly silly things about, you know, there  was a little cabal of four or five guys in the  
  • neighborhood, and we'd, you know, play baseball,  play golf, play, whatever. And I just write about  
  • us. And writing is probably a stretch  to it was hanging words together, and  
  • probably a fairly incoherent way. But, but it was,  
  • it was fun. And then I got to the high school  paper A few years later, and sort of realized, Oh,  
  • I can actually do this. And people read it and  stop me in the hall and say, Oh, I read your  
  • story about the football game, or whatever it was.  And I'm saying, well, this is kind of fun, like  
  • this is this is something that can actually make a  difference somehow. And one thing led to another.
  • Speaker 1: So what was  
  • your role in the high school newspaper?
  • Speaker 2: I was, I think,  
  • the highest I ever was, if you want to  consider the hierarchy as like a sports  
  • editor or something like that. I  basically wrote sports stories.
  • Speaker 1: Excellent.  
  • And then you went on to school  to study this also, or, well,
  • Speaker 2: When I went to college, Stanford, we  
  • didn't have an undergraduate journalism major. So  I was actually a history major. But I took all the  
  • double majors in communication and was exposed to  some amazing journalism writing teacher guy named  
  • Bill Reverend bill rivers, who's fairly legendary  in our craft and I worked on the student paper and  
  • also worked on the student radio station and did  that sort of thing. So it sort of got me going.
  • Speaker 1: So being  
  • involved in scholastic press and  then and the collegiate press,  
  • what were some of the skills and things that you  developed from that that you think you carried  
  • from there or even work ethic did anything  or maybe even from your 12 year old days?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know about work ethic or that but  
  • I was so busy. In college, I did a lot of  different things. I wasn't one of the folks who  
  • you know, were there until three in the morning,  putting out the paper. I'm still friends with a  
  • lot of those, those men and women from college.  But, you know, I was active in my fraternity.  
  • I had a paying job in the university helping  run the university here mural sports program.  
  • And, you know, ostensibly was a student now  and again, so. But I wrote a lot of I wrote a  
  • column for a while on intramural sports, because  I went to the sports editor and said, You know,  
  • you're covering the teams. But what about, you  got all these people who are high school sports  
  • stars who are playing a murals and some people who  are totally incompetent athletes. So there's this  
  • nice range, and it was fun to write about. And you  know, that that got me farther down the road, too.
  • 05:48 Speaker 1: So your father was involved in the journalism  
  • area and taught you to reveal journalism?  When did you know that this was something  
  • that you wanted to do as a profession, then what  turned you into the journalist that you became?
  • 06:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, in college, I sort of realized that  
  • this could be really fun. And,  you know, at some point, my  
  • brain kind of turned down and I realized,  this is also a way to make a difference.  
  • I knew I wasn't going to go to med school,  I thought I might go to law school,  
  • I thought I might go to business school. And I  did an internship between my junior and senior  
  • year back home in eastern Washington at the paper  in Spokane, Washington, the spokesman review,  
  • and loved it. And really, you know, really had a  good time, even though it's, you know, and then  
  • during those days, I was like reading obits,  and writing briefs, but I got to write some,  
  • some fun stories, too. And I just said, Wow,  this is this is just great. It's so much fun.  
  • And there's a public service aspect to it that  really appeals to me personally. And the way I was  
  • raised, I was raised to make a difference. After  school, I applied to journalism, graduate school,  
  • business school and law school. I didn't get into  law school. And there's there's a famous story  
  • that actually got told at our last reunion I'm  walking out of after taking the law boards, with a  
  • buddy of mine. And I turned to him and said, Well,  I'm having a great career in journalism, because I  
  • totally bombed the law boards. I didn't get into  some good schools, but and I got into middel,  
  • to go get a graduate degree. But the spokesman  review called just after I graduated in June of  
  • 1975, and offered me a reporting job. And so  off, I went, I never got to graduate school.
  • Speaker 1: But you eventually  
  • got to teach. That's true. We'll get to that  in a second. When you moved into the newsroom,  
  • rather as an intern or as you got your  first job as a reporter. What was the  
  • newsroom demographics? Like? What was  the diversity like in the newsrooms?
  • Speaker 2: There was virtually none. When I went to Spokane,  
  • there was one African American reporter, and that  was in you know, this is Eastern Washington in the  
  • mid 70s. There weren't a lot of people of color,  there were a few women in the room. And of course,  
  • they were still doing the society pages or  whatever they were called. Then there was  
  • a couple of there was one woman who came in with  me, who, you know, became a very close friend. And  
  • but diversity, you know, wasn't really a concept,  then. I was always aware I was a little different.  
  • You know, because when I was growing, I mean,  I'm growing up in this small college town  
  • in eastern Washington in the 50s, and 60s, my  family, and one Asian American family, the Wu's  
  • Doris Wu, and I went through school together,  were the only people of color in the whole town  
  • until I started integrating the sports teams in  the 60s. And then African Americans started coming  
  • to campus, typically from Seattle  over to Pullman, where I lived,  
  • and from other places in the country and  change started to happen. But there was really  
  • no concept of it. I was always aware I was a  little different for no other reason. I had a  
  • weird last name, you know that I have to spell for  everyone except when I go to an Indian restaurant.  
  • And then they and then they look at me and say  your name is Bhatia. Yeah, my dad's from India.
  • 09:11 Speaker 1: It's interesting  
  • because a lot of people may not know outside  of your name, that you have Indian descent.  
  • And so was that How did people receive you  when they learned that you were part Indian?
  • 09:26 Speaker 2: Well, more with  
  • curiosity than anything else at that time,  you know, people knew about Gandhi and Nehru,  
  • and, you know, vaguely about the partition of  India, Pakistan and so on. But Indians were  
  • South Asian Indians, a rarity, and especially  in the little town where I lived, so it was,  
  • it was really more mysterious  than anything else to people.  
  • When I was a kid, my buddy And you know,  okay, we're kids and we're, we're stupid.  
  • My buddies had a nickname for me, that was a  derogatory nickname for someone of Arab descent.  
  • So they couldn't even get their  ethnicities, right, you know, and,  
  • and, you know, as a kid I sort of thought about,  Well, okay, so what it's just, it's just my buds.  
  • As an adult, as I, as I came of age and got  into the world and, you know, saw more things,  
  • I realized it was really insulting, and really  demeaning. And although they didn't mean it by  
  • that they were just being funny. And even  for my son, who's a quarter South Asian,  
  • you know, guys in high school called  him Geronimo and things like that.  
  • So they couldn't even get their Indian  right. So I think that I mean, for me,  
  • it was part of an awakening in some way of really  coming to understand that there are differences  
  • and, and good differences. And it's not just get  home. I mean, Indian food is great, and so on,  
  • and so forth. And I know what darker Indian  restaurants, but the culture, the history,  
  • the art, all of that has informed who I am  my dad, oops, got the microphone, sorry,  
  • my, my dad, our house was full of Indian art. And  I still and I have some of that now and, and have  
  • collected my own over time for my trips to  India. So it remains very important to me.
  • Speaker 1: 
  • So when you think about the kinds of stories  that you've read, reported on or edited on,  
  • have you thought that those have helped  the cause of diversity in our industry?
  • Speaker 2: I don't know that I  
  • as a working journalist, I'm not sure how  much I've contributed, I mean, I got access  
  • to some people that resulted in journalism  being done, that might not have been done  
  • otherwise. For example, I interviewed  Indira Gandhi on one of my trips to  
  • India, it was fantastic. And I interviewed  her in the sitting room of her home, just,  
  • you know, a few yards from where she was  assassinated. Later, when Margie decided  
  • to be the Prime Minister of India and came to the  US, because I knew people in the Indian diplomatic  
  • corps, I was able to get to sit down with him,  and he was kind of an incredible character.  
  • And, like, a lot of people in newsrooms, I kind  of became a go to person for things about South  
  • Asia. So, you know, I think the much bigger  impact I've been able to make is, since I got  
  • and I've been in management for 30 plus years, and  I've hired or been involved in hiring hundreds and  
  • hundreds of people. And that's where I've really  been able to make the most impact on diversity.
  • Speaker 1: So when approaching the hiring process  
  • as a manager, then tell me about your approach  and, and what informs your thinking and, and,  
  • and being and what level of intentionality did  you have in trying to help diversify newsrooms?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that early on,  
  • it became really clear to me that if you want to  get things done, there's got to be leadership from  
  • the top, there's got to be commitment from the  top. And in various places I've been, I have,  
  • you know, used my authority at times to say  we will have diverse candidates, because we  
  • must make progress on that, whether you're in a  incredibly diverse place, like when I worked in  
  • San Francisco, or an incredibly underverse place,  like when I worked in Portland, and everything  
  • in between, I worked in Dallas, that's a whole  nother kind of diversity, and so on and so forth.  
  • And now in Detroit, I live in a city that's  85% African American, so that adds, you know,  
  • but it's, it's always been driven by, if we're  going to do the journalism that we want to do at  
  • the highest possible level, then we need to have  the best cross cultural, and, and life experience  
  • newsroom that we can, so that we can go into  situations and, and report accurately and  
  • fully and be able to communicate effectively  with people about what they are experiencing.  
  • So there's the journalistic aspect of it, that's  always been really important to me, but it's also  
  • just good business sense. You know, that's one  of the things I've used over time, frankly, to,  
  • to push for diversity because I said, you know, if  you want people of color or people from different  
  • communities or whatever to, to read, whatever  you do, then you need to represent them in  
  • some way in your publication or your website, or  whatever the case might be. So, you know, I really  
  • there's some things in it. I really  resent, for example, the Rooney Rule  
  • in the end Because it's a joke, you know,  they find a black candidate who's typically  
  • an assistant on the staff, they interview him,  and then they hire who they want. I mean, I,  
  • I find it reprehensible, frankly. But from my  perspective, when we have the chance to hire,  
  • I want to see diverse candidates. And I completely  reject the idea that people put forward that there  
  • are not qualified minority candidates out  there. There are, and more and more frankly,  
  • today, it's been a long slog to get there. But  I'm actually quite optimistic right now about,  
  • you know, with, I mean, hirings harder now than  it's been in the past, because we're a smaller  
  • industry, but we can get, we can get more people  in the door who can help us do our jobs better?
  • Speaker 1: 
  • I think it's so important that the people  understand both the business, you know,  
  • paradigm of the customers and readers and  viewers that are out there. And then also,  
  • the newsroom side, that you're going to be able  to produce more different kinds of stories and,  
  • and have different perspectives, you  know, to cover, so taking it from  
  • both parts is the same way. Were there ever any  instances in which you challenge the practices  
  • regarding diversity in the newsroom?  And if so, how did you handle that?
  • Speaker 2: Well, I think there, there been  
  • a lot of, Oh, we've got work to do  there kinds of moments where we've  
  • written something that or are posted something  that could be seen as offensive, depending on  
  • the person on the receiving end of that  information, headlines, stories, that  
  • were incomplete stories that were stereotypical  stories that fell for some prevailing storyline,  
  • that's especially important now, in, in 2018, with  a lot of the hateful rhetoric around immigration  
  • and minorities, and people of different  faiths and so on, and so on, and so forth. But  
  • you know, as a leader, you have to be willing  to take risks sometimes, and to put yourself  
  • in uncomfortable positions. So I've gone to  community meetings, and had people yelling at me.  
  • And I might not like their methodology. But  I mean, this happened when I was editor in  
  • Cincinnati, people were really upset  about, you know, the paper ends. And  
  • certain communities saw us as a tool of the  widest the white establishment that runs the city,  
  • and didn't feel like we were letting  them in. Well, I heard what they said,  
  • I didn't agree with it all. And, and, and  I don't think we were ever there was some  
  • reporting on a black run foundation that we did  that had some questionable financial practices.  
  • It didn't ever occur to me that, you know, we  were writing about financial practices, not about  
  • the black people who ran the foundation, but  they saw it as an attack on their community, and  
  • I needed to listen to that, I need to understand  that. And, and, you know, that was two or three  
  • years ago now. So it's a constant learning journey  about this. There was a time when, you know, when  
  • I was younger and more interested in these things,  I, you know, sort of tap somebody on the shoulder  
  • in the newsroom and say, you know, he really  doesn't want to say that. I mean, that's kind of  
  • offensive. I've never been one to, I mean,  I'm always willing, you know, like, with my  
  • friends, when I was a kid, I sort of, you know,  okay, it's my friends there. They're still my  
  • friends. You know, we still get together,  one of the great things about Facebook is,  
  • my buddies from high school and I are closer  than we've ever been, you know, because we  
  • see each other regularly, because we do stuff  together occasionally. And now we're all gray and  
  • overweight, but, you know, we're still we had that  experience of growing up together and playing on  
  • horrible football teams together and things,  things like that. But, but we've all matured  
  • along the way. And, you know, that's part of the,  of the constant learning about this. I think it's,  
  • I think all of these stages along the  way from the little things, you know,  
  • I was in San Francisco for the AIDS epidemic, and  for the assassination of George Moscone in Harvey  
  • Milk and for the growth of the gay community in  San Francisco. And that was, you know, we're in  
  • a lot of the, a lot of the country was sort of  angry, or, you know, the gay plague and they  
  • bring it on themselves and so on and so forth. For  us in San Francisco. This was a disease that was  
  • killing people who lived in our community  and it and, and, of course, I was working  
  • with staffers who are gay, because it was a time  when you could come out and Say you were gay,  
  • when 10 years earlier, you wouldn't have perhaps.  So all those stuffs along the way have made me I  
  • think I made me a better person. For one thing,  when you met as management, as long as I have, you  
  • know, you, you get a little callous about human  behavior and how it's crazy at times. But you  
  • also, I think, get an appreciation for humanity  and people and all the different slices of it.  
  • You know, race, gender, socioeconomic  background, educational experience,  
  • where they've worked, where they've lived,  what their parents did all those things  
  • that make the whole person And to me,  that's what diversity is all about.
  • Speaker 1: I think you're right, all of those things.  
  • Make up diversity is not just black or white, or  religion, or what have you. It's encompassing all  
  • those different aspects. And you've become  an advocate for that, in your role bridging  
  • the gap with academia, you've played the role in  the classroom as visiting professor or practicing  
  • professional as a, as a professor, you've been  leading our accreditation efforts, both as a  
  • site team member and now as leader of the Council.  So can you tell me a little bit about first, how  
  • did you end up in academia? Like what influenced  you to become that bridge to the academy and then  
  • eventually jump into it as a faculty member? Tell  me a little bit about your, your academic journey?
  • Speaker 2: Well, I love it, I knew I would love teaching.  
  • You know, having grown up on a college campus,  having had interaction with college professors,  
  • my whole childhood being the son of  one. You know, I knew it was in my DNA.  
  • I used to tease my father a lot, say, Oh,  you academics, you have such an easy life.  
  • And you know, he'd get, and he worked very  hard, but he'd get it. I was just kidding.
  • Speaker 2: but he'd get all indignant with me, and,  
  • over time, through connections with various  places, I was chair of the advisory board  
  • at the moral College of Washington State. You  know, I've done a lot of stuff at my alma mater.  
  • I've been involved with other universities, I've  tried to build bridges with universities from  
  • the profession, internships and other things.  Because I think it's, it's, it's really been,  
  • it's really been an interesting transition  in the last, I don't know, 1015 years is the  
  • digital revolution has taken hold. It used  to be that stuff flowed from the profession,  
  • to academia. And now we need academia to help  us figure out the future, especially around  
  • complex things like digital delivery of news,  data, all manner of all manner of other things,  
  • code, what have you. And so it was, it's  just always been really comfortable for me.  
  • And, you know, I always knew in my head,  I wanted to teach, I didn't think I'd  
  • leave the profession, go teach, and then come  back to the profession. That was the plan.
  • Speaker 2: But every experience I've had teaching at Arizona  
  • State for a year and a half, I taught a class at  UC University of Cincinnati, was in Cincinnati has  
  • been fantastic. And, and I got into a crediting I  was drafted, really, and by Jerry sepals and, and  
  • one thing led to another and, you know, I, I love  being on college campuses, doing the crediting  
  • visits, I love interacting with academics, because  I think they make me smarter and better. I love  
  • interacting with students, who annually make me  feel older, but also are so energizing. You know,  
  • it makes you feel good about the future of the  country when you meet these, these kids at the  
  • various journalism schools. And I just think  it's a way I can get back. I mean, I've been  
  • doing this for 43 years, or whatever it is. And  I've got a lot of experiences. And I started,  
  • I started one point, working on an online MBA,  because I don't have a terminal degree and,  
  • and I was in the second class, which was an  organizational leadership class. And every theory,  
  • every named, you know, principle, I had an  anecdote to illustrate it. The professor loved me,  
  • because he, you know, he knew I would have Oh,  yeah, let me tell you a story from the newsroom.  
  • Whatever news remote would be from and, and  it was, it was actually a great experience.  
  • Unfortunately, after two classes, I got promoted  to editor in Portland and I didn't have time to  
  • continue but someday I'll get back to it. When  I retire. I will get my masters and something.
  • Speaker 1: Well, I think you will, and  
  • it doesn't matter the age is the matter that you  achieve the goal you set forth. That's possible.  
  • What point did you become aware of the  need for greater diversity in academia?  
  • We talked about the newsroom  side, what about in academia?
  • Speaker 2: I think it was part of becoming  
  • part of the accreditation process and seeing the  struggle that so many schools have with it. And  
  • I knew that being successful with diversity  in the newsroom was a matter of well,  
  • it's also a matter of resources and budgets, and,  you know, availability and so on. So all that  
  • figures into it, but it's really parallel to what  universities have, you know, when we're evaluating  
  • a school, and they've got six professors and  Nobody leaves during a six year period, it's  
  • pretty hard to expect them to make their faculty  more diverse. But there are things they can do  
  • through adjuncts through outside speakers through  curriculum, and so on, and so forth. And so I saw,  
  • and, and was kind of surprised, because  
  • when I first started getting into this,  because I sort of, you know, maybe,  
  • maybe foolishly I don't know, but sort of expected  the Academy to be ahead of the professions  
  • to, to further commitments to diversity among  faculty, among students among curriculum to be  
  • much more ingrained than it was. So in our nine  standards that we accredited by standard three  
  • immediately became the most important one, when  I got when I got into this work, because I was  
  • disappointed on some level that more wasn't  being done. And you know, it's funny,  
  • it's kind of like the profession, it's faded  away, it faded away for a little bit in the late  
  • aughts. Because like the profession,  everybody's fighting for survival,  
  • plus assessment sort of passed it up a  little bit in the pantheon of accreditation,  
  • now it's coming back, which I think is fantastic.  Because, you know, we need it as a society.  
  • And it's, it's going to happen with or without  us, you know, the demographics of what this  
  • country is going to be 20 years from now are very  clear. And I don't think that's going to change,  
  • regardless of how we change immigration  policies, or whatever the case might be.
  • Speaker 1: So when you think  
  • about your contributions into the Academy, but  the accrediting council work, what do you think  
  • is your major contribution in that space, in terms  of trying to push the needle on to push for change  
  • more for greater inclusivity? And, and not just  with, as you talked about before, it's not just,  
  • you know, the numbers of professors, but in  how we approach and think about our reporting,  
  • and the stories and the images that we cover?  Can you share a little bit about how you feel,  
  • um, you've been able to contribute on that  front? Particularly in your leadership role?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's, it's really trying to,  
  • and this is actually picked up in the last couple  years, bringing diversity more front and center.  
  • And there is diversity at every school, you know,  some it's more overt than others. And if it's  
  • an HBCU, or if it's, you know, in a major  metropolitan area that has a huge diverse  
  • population, or if it's a small school on the  plains, somewhere, there's diversity in the  
  • full range of things. And I think that using the  bully pulpit, if you will, of the of the council,  
  • to remind people that this is really important  to ask questions, to hold them accountable, to  
  • just create an atmosphere where it's not, you  know, I said in a panel this morning, actually,  
  • that we love all nine of our standards equally,  it's like our children, we love all our children  
  • equally. But standard three is more important.  And, and that's the message that I've tried to  
  • get across particularly recently, because I felt  there was some slippage in the commitment. There,  
  • there are some brilliant things being done at  at places that people would think unlikely,  
  • or, you know, places where they've had issues  with diversity in the past, but where they're  
  • recruiting minority faculty where they're getting  guest speakers in, either in person or, or through  
  • technology, where they're putting modules  into their courses, that, you know, they're  
  • beginning courses, you know, their journalism  and society or their beginning writing courses,  
  • and where they're getting assignments that they've  got to go out and find somebody not like you to  
  • interview, tell a story, shoot a video, etc. And  the students are gonna be so better off for that,  
  • because wherever they end up whatever they end  up doing, their NPR, if they're in advertising,  
  • if they're in broadcast, if they're in traditional  journalism, they're going to be covering people  
  • who don't look like them who have different life  experiences like them, and they've got to be able  
  • to succeed in that atmosphere. So I'm going to  keep pushing it until they, you know, kick me off.
  • Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's kicking you  
  • off. So we're keeping around for a little bit  longer. So think about them. What do you see  
  • as the future for diversity, both for the  news media and for the academy? And, or do  
  • you think that we're in such survival mode that  is no longer necessary to keep up the pressure?
  • Speaker 2: No, I feel even more strongly that we  
  • have to keep up the pressure, there are societal  issues, obviously, it worked in 2018, that are  
  • working against diversity in, in some fashion, my  congressional district in Detroit, apparently has  
  • nominated the first Muslim woman to be a member  of Congress. It's John Conyers old district,  
  • so it's very heavily Democrat. And so you win  the Democratic primary, you've won the seat.  
  • And, you know, like, that kind of makes me proud,  you know, that I, it's, it's by coincidence,  
  • and geography, I live in that district. But,  you know, these are things that actually,  
  • I think are good for our country. And, and I think  that for those of us who were in a position to,  
  • I mean, both as professionals and educators,  we're in a position to shape the future,  
  • we're in a position, you know, we're preparing the  next generation of whatever. And within academia,  
  • within the different specialties. in journalism,  we continue to be driven by writing about change,  
  • and things that are changing, for better or  worse, or that need changing for better or worse.  
  • So I don't think I don't think diversity goes  away. And I think as the, I'm actually really,  
  • I'm the parent of two millennials, and I'm  really, really encouraged in talking to them,  
  • I mean, I have these conversations with them a  times, and it's sort of like that, why is your  
  • generation so hung up with, you know, people's  sexual orientation, or the color of their skin,  
  • and, and so on, because their experiences  in college and, and in the real world,  
  • are completely, you know, color, genders,  sexual orientation, you name it neutral,  
  • it just doesn't matter to them. And anything we  can do, to continue to push that forward is good  
  • for America and good for society, long term,  in my view, because, you know, I mean, I'm,  
  • I'm fond of reminding people when they're getting  on me and saying, we're doing stuff wrong, I said,  
  • you know, we are a country of immigrants.  You know, my, my history is my history,  
  • your history is your history, unless you're  Native American, and the people who would be  
  • criticizing me for coverage of race would not be  Native American. Your people came from somewhere,  
  • you know, Western Europe, South America, whatever.  And, and that's what this country is about. And  
  • I mean, I get a little we'd be philosophical  about it, but we have, but we have to keep pushing  
  • ahead. Because I don't think it's gonna get less  important, I think it's gonna get more important.
  • Speaker 1: So what would you say then  
  • to future generations of journalists, people  who want to become editors or publishers are  
  • people who want to be reporters, or to those of  us who've chosen to go down the academic Robin,  
  • who want to become scholars and professors? And  what would you say to these generations based  
  • upon your experiences, bridging that gap,  and fighting for diversity in the newsroom,  
  • and in the academy? What's your words of  wisdom that you want to leave with them?
  • Speaker 2: I think it's always  
  • the best. I mean, it sounds like  an Army recruiting commercial,  
  • right? But be the best you can be  in whatever your chosen field is.  
  • But never forget where you came from. Never forget  how you became you, through your experiences  
  • through your child rearing through your family  history, and, and really embrace that, because  
  • it makes you better at what you are, because  it brings different perspectives to the table.
  • Speaker 2: And different perspectives are what  
  • makes this country's thrive. We may be in a time  of polar opposition on some of those issues.  
  • But I, you know, perhaps slightly Pollyanna ish  believe this will sort itself out because that's  
  • what that's what the American Great  American democracy experiment does,  
  • but we got a lot of work to do. And we need people  from all these backgrounds. So it starts with  
  • being the best at what you do. So if it's a  reporter, or a scholar or you know, an insurance  
  • person, be the best of what you can do, but also  remember where you came from. And remember that  
  • if you've had an opportunity to get a  great education or to have a career,  
  • there are a lot of people out there  who haven't had that opportunity,  
  • and you need to represent them somehow. You  need to figure out ways to give them voice  
  • Through your work, through your work,  through your research, through your whatever,  
  • because that's really important. More voices in  this country need to be heard. We have unique  
  • opportunities as journalists and scholars to give  voice to those voices to those voiceless, which  
  • is another journalistic cliche, but a really,  really important one. So all that gives me great  
  • excitement for the future. I'm gonna,  I'm gonna stick around as long as I can.
  • Speaker 1: 
  • Well, I appreciate you taking the time to talk  with us today and, and sharing a little bit about  
  • your journey and, and I appreciate all that  you contain to make us a better profession,  
  • both in the academy and both in the  industry. So thank you for your service.
  • Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.