AEJMC Trailblazers of Diversity Interview with Maggie Rivas-Rodriguez

  • Speaker 1: Today is Wednesday, August 8 2018. And I am  
  • Barbara Heinz. I'm here interviewing Maggie Rivas  Rodriguez. And we are doing the AJ MC diversity,  
  • Oral history interview project. And Maggie,  thank you so much as sort of the grandma MA  
  • with her oral history project for agreeing to talk  with me today. As you know that this interview  
  • will be housed on the AMC website, and also at  the Dolph Briscoe Center for American history  
  • at the University of Texas at Austin,  your home institution, my alma mater.  
  • So, welcome. You've had a long career  in journalism and journalism education.  
  • I know that you spend a lot of time going  and speaking at it, elementary schools  
  • about journalism and what got you interested in  journalism? How did you get started in the field?
  • Speaker 2: Thank you, Barbara  
  • for doing the interview. I really appreciate  it. So as a child, I was always the writer.  
  • In my family. I always had a diary. I always wrote  poems and short stories. But I didn't think about  
  • journalism as a career option, because I didn't  know that it was a career option. So I grew up  
  • in a small town in South Texas called divine.  And, and it wasn't until I got to college that  
  • I realized that you could actually get paid for  writing. And so once I made that realization,  
  • and I discovered journalism, I just fell in  love. And really, that's all I've ever done.
  • Speaker 1: 
  • You are quite the writer. Do you have any role  models? Was there anybody that you looked up to?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was growing up, you know,  
  • we would watch the San Antonio television stations  and there was an anchor named Martha Buchanan, who  
  • I really liked a lot. I thought she was very, very  good. And so that was kind of what I saw I thought  
  • about I mean, I wasn't really thinking about  journalism. But when I did start thinking about  
  • journalism, I thought about going into television,  and being a television anchor. And then later,  
  • I realized that I really would want it to be out  in the field. I wasn't so interested in being  
  • an anchor as I was being a reporter. And to me,  that's where the excitement is being a reporter.
  • Speaker 1: And such a good storyteller.
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, she was really good. She's very classy.
  • Speaker 1: When you did get into the field,  
  • you were reading newspapers,  you were watching television?  
  • Did you get a sense that there was a  need for more diversity in the field?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah. When I was  
  • in college, I worked at the campus newspapers,  the daily texts. And I grew up with a very strong  
  • awareness of how Mexican Americans were  treated and omitted from lots of different  
  • things as in history books, I never, I never would  read a history book or any kind of book in school,  
  • that was about Mexican Americans or Latinos. And  so I always was very aware of that. So when I went  
  • to college, and I started taking Mexican American  studies classes, it kind of sharpened my thinking.  
  • And I and and at the time, we were a small  cohort of Mexican American journalism students.  
  • So we started getting together and we created  a small organization called channels instead  
  • of silos that Guney Kassianos, and  we held a conference. And so in,  
  • in organizing the conference and planning it  out, we started really thinking about the role  
  • of journalists and our role as Mexican American  journalists and what that entailed and what we  
  • can bring to the table and how we can change  things. So it was, it was something that I was  
  • very aware of, and I would look at the daily  texts, and indeed, and the daily texts, and  
  • was very glad to have my contributions, because  I wanted to write about Mexican American issues.  
  • So they were very encouraging, but it was just  me writing this stuff. And I didn't have a lot  
  • of others there were not a lot of us to do that.  So over and over again, you'd see something that  
  • if you didn't write it, nobody was gonna write  it. If you didn't report on it, it wasn't gonna  
  • get reported. And I knew that there was a huge  need to bring more people into the business.
  • Speaker 1: What kind  
  • of stories were you writing for The Daily Texan?
  • Speaker 2: Well, for instance,  
  • I went to Houston to cover a Chicana kind of  empowerment conference. So I went with a bunch  
  • of others of my, you know, other students that  I knew and I went up there and there was a big  
  • Marta Protest that was talking about  empowerment of Chicano women. And,  
  • you know, we stayed in somebody's house and  slept on the floor and stuff like that. And he  
  • was empowered, very empowered. I had a very hard  back. So I did that. Then I went over a weekend,  
  • I went with a photographer down to the Rio Grande  Valley, to cover a farm worker strike. And so I  
  • interviewed the farm workers, I interviewed the  growers. And I'll never forget, there was this one  
  • white grower who I was interviewing, and he was  an older man, he must have been in his maybe, you  
  • know, mid to late 80s. And I asked him, you know,  about the rights of these farm workers. And he was  
  • a very sweet man, really sweet. I liked him. And  I said, and he said, Well, we treat them fine.  
  • There's no problem. And I said, but how about the  pesticides? And he says, Well, those pesticides  
  • never hurt anybody. Okay, well insert some of  these wet backs, but it didn't hurt anybody.  
  • And she just, you know, that was his where he  was coming from, you didn't see anything wrong  
  • with that. So, it covered some of those stories,  and, and really had had a lot of fun doing it.
  • Speaker 1: Were there  
  • other stories like that, that you  felt really contributed not just  
  • to a better understanding of creating a  more diverse world, but making change?
  • Speaker 2: I would like to think  
  • I can't think of those two in particular,  specifically, I remember very well.  
  • I don't remember the stories. I did a lot of  dental assignment stuff. So you know, whatever  
  • came down the pike, and like I was assigned  to do, but a lot of the stories were stories  
  • that I wanted to do, and and I find that I found  them and I find it now that if it's a story, if  
  • it's your story idea, you're much more invested.  And you're willing to put a lot of work into it.
  • Speaker 1: Are there ever,  
  • ever stories that you felt like your paper didn't  cover? Like you were at the Dallas Morning News?
  • Speaker 2: Well, my first newspaper job was at the Boston  
  • Globe, Boston Globe. Okay, yeah. And so when I  got hired at the Boston Globe, it was my first  
  • newspaper job. And I did find that there were,  I was the first Hispanic reporter, I was the  
  • first Hispanic employee. And my first day on the  job, they were walking around introducing me,  
  • this is Maggie. She's our first Hispanic reporter.  And finally, after about four of these, I went to  
  • the managing editor. And I said, so I was hired  because I was Hispanic or because I was a good  
  • reporter. And he says, Oh, no, because you're  a good reporter. The fact of the matter is they  
  • needed Hispanic. And so that is why they brought  me in, I know that, but I wanted to hear them say.  
  • So anyway, so they were  stories, though, that I felt  
  • that, that they missed the boat on. And there was  one particular story about a Puerto Rican woman  
  • whose child had been kidnapped by a babysitter.  And then the child had been recovered in Miami.  
  • And so they sent me to go to the  interview. She lived in Chelsea,  
  • a little suburb of Boston, and they lived  in the projects. Really, really poor people  
  • didn't have any furniture, were sitting in  the kitchen, you know, like they had just like  
  • kitchen chairs. That's what they used instead  of a couch. And I interviewed, it was a great  
  • story. They spoke only Spanish, this great story,  came back with the story. And, and I told the,  
  • you know, the Assistant man, the Assistant city  editor, I'm expecting this is going to get good  
  • play. And so when I went home that night, I  couldn't find the nice story. And it was buried  
  • on the obit section. And so I went to the city  editor, and I said, why is this and he said, Well,  
  • you got to talk to the city editor. So I went  and I talked to the city editor. I said, what's,  
  • what is the deal? I said, this is a great story.  And he said, Well, it came in late because of  
  • course, I didn't get the assignment until it came  in late. I said, That's not an excuse. I mean,  
  • I know we do. I mean, it should have at least  been the metro front because they recovered  
  • the kid and the kid was going to come back.  He says he gave me lots of lots of excuses.  
  • And then I had that little epiphany that I  realized that the reason that she hadn't gotten  
  • at least the metro front was because  she was poor. And she was Hispanic.  
  • And when I made that realization, I was  just crushed. I was devastated because  
  • I really believe that the Boston Globe was doing  its very best to, you know, to cover diversity and  
  • I started crying in the newsroom and I ran into  the ladies room. And this African American friend  
  • of mine, Gail Pollard came in and I told her I  said, Gail, they don't care. They don't see and  
  • she says that's how it is Maggie. That's how it  is. So she said, so I went and I talked to the  
  • editor. Tom Winship, but I told him I said,  you know, we, we have a problem we have,  
  • we don't have enough, we have too many middle  class reporters who can't see the story,  
  • bare bones for what it is. And yeah, I didn't  change anything, but it did Create in me a better  
  • understanding of how the system worked. And it  was, it was a symptom of a societal problem,  
  • that, and to this day, you know, if you  are poor, and if you are a person of color,  
  • you story probably isn't going  to make the news as if you were  
  • a rich person living in a in a fancy area of, you  know, a Boston, and if you're a minority as well.
  • Speaker 1: Was it any  
  • different when you were in Dallas or El Paso?  
  • Because it's a very different geographic area and  socio economic area. Did you see any differences?
  • Speaker 2: You know,  
  • I think that by and large people, journalists  really do want to really have the intention of  
  • wanting to to cover their communities. And  they do have the best intentions. And that  
  • was true in Boston, it was true in Dallas. And  I, when I was covering the US Mexico border,  
  • there people there had a real intention of  wanting to cover those communities. What  
  • one thing I did find, so there was an intention  to do it. And I do believe that their hearts were  
  • in the right places. I do think one thing that  I've you know, the other epiphany I had was that  
  • when I could be covering a story that had  no racial angle to it. And I would go out  
  • and cover it. And then I would, I would find the  racial out element. And it's nothing I was looking  
  • for. It just came up and bit me. And people were  really open to talking about the racial element.  
  • Would they have been opened if I wasn't a Mexican  American? Because it's Mexican Americans coming  
  • up and telling me these things? I don't know. I  kind of don't think so, so I kind of think that,  
  • that that there is if people see you, and they  think that they can trust you with that. And  
  • they think that you're going to take it  seriously, because maybe you've had the  
  • same experience or you know, that there is that  experience. Maybe they'll open up to you more.
  • Speaker 1: Were there any stories that you  
  • felt you really had to fight for? To get coverage  for? In any of the papers where you were working?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one story, I don't  
  • remember the year now. It was, it must have been  like 1990. There was a class action suit being  
  • brought by Latino Hispanic FBI agents against  their agency, saying that they had been passed  
  • over regularly for promotion and that they hadn't  been given the same opportunities, on and on. So  
  • I covered the US Mexico border. So I became aware  of this story. And it was going to be tried at the  
  • federal courthouse in, in, in El Paso. And so I  wanted to do the story, because this is going to  
  • be important. So my editor was a really great guy  who just didn't see it. He says, you know, why is  
  • this and I said, this is so I had to fight I had  to like push him and push him and push him. But  
  • finally he says we'll just go see what it's about.  And so I started covering the case. And it was a  
  • really important case over and over again. And  it was something like 361 FBI agents. Wow. Now,  
  • I don't know that much about FBI agents. I do  know though they are really straight arrows. And  
  • they do not believe in a lot of rocking the  boat kind of thing. And so that really just  
  • made it very clear that they had adjusted costs,  and that this was something that if you could get  
  • that many people to sign on to it, there was a  problem if there was a substantial problem here.  
  • So initially, I had to fight on it. Once it came  out in the Dallas Morning News, the national media  
  • started, you know, the Associated Press covered  it and all the national media was there. So it  
  • became a big national story. So that was  one that initially I had to argue about.  
  • But then after a while, you know, they  got it and it was it was just because,  
  • you know, sometimes there's the  other human element. I think  
  • that if sometimes editors can get kind of  stubborn, and they want to hear you really  
  • explain why this is a big story. And so I think  that's what is going on with that one too.
  • Speaker 1: Have you ever  
  • felt like you had to rock the boat  so to speak with certain coverage?
  • Speaker 2: 
  • Yeah, to a certain extent, but you  know, I never felt like it was rocking  
  • the boat. I just felt like it was kind  of pushing the envelope a little bit.  
  • And there really wasn't that much of a  price to pay for it, I didn't feel like,  
  • you know, they behind my back, they might have  said, There she goes, again, another Hispanic  
  • story, but they never told me anything to my face.  And the fact of the matter is that the story's  
  • got pretty good play. And they've gotten a  lot of response from people in the community.  
  • And you know, people don't often tell  you, when you've done a good job,  
  • they'll tell you when you haven't done a good  job. But they don't say anything. But then I'd  
  • be out in the community, and somebody would  say, Oh, I read this. So I knew that people  
  • were reading it, and they were kind of, you  know, they were aware of what I was doing.
  • Speaker 1: We hear a lot about sometimes people  
  • cover certain stories or uncover certain things  depending on what they're working on. And,  
  • and as a result, they may suffer repercussions for  pushing the envelope of pushing coverage of it.  
  • Did you feel as a woman or a Latina  that you ever were in that boat?
  • Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so i think  
  • i think that one thing that does happen is  that you don't get considered for promotions,  
  • in some ways. However, to me, the highest position  was being a reporter, so I wasn't looking for a  
  • promotion of that of that kind. The other part  of it is, I think that you get so much more,  
  • if you're willing to take a stand and, and, and  just insist on coverage, that I think that you get  
  • back a lot more. So I have this, this, this idea  that they may not like me, but they'll respect me.  
  • And in the end, I would much rather be respected  than liked. And so it's never bothered me.  
  • One of the things we've seen over the years  is there hasn't been a steady progression of  
  • rising to another level, you say reporting is  at the top level. But some would say that there  
  • needs to be more people of color in management.  And when in the newsrooms that you worked in,  
  • did you see any evidence of people of  color women or lesbian or transgender  
  • in your newsrooms that weren't treated fairly,  maybe didn't have the opportunity to rise  
  • if they wanted to go above being maybe a reporter  or whatever their position might have been?
  • Speaker 2: Well, it's been several years now.  
  • I think, I think that there were some people that  were held back a bit, and sometimes because they  
  • were gay. And this was not even openly gay. This  is people that were folks kind of knew that they  
  • were gay, but they, they never made an issue of  it, and they never acknowledged it. So I do think  
  • that there was that. As far as I think that with  Latinos, I think that there has been a little bit  
  • of not taking going up to the next level. And part  of that is because I don't think that we've been  
  • very aggressive about demanding  that or getting that. That said,  
  • I've seen Latinos, go work by law and  who's now at the St. Louis post dispatch.  
  • And fellow fellow cowboy hat, mother, Lee, who's  at the Dallas Morning News Now what I see and  
  • he's now the president of asnd. So I think that  I think that there's been a few, probably not  
  • as many I do see the value. I wish that I had  wanted to do that. And it's never wanted to do
  • Speaker 1: it wasn't on your radar.
  • Speaker 2: It really wasn't.
  • Speaker 1: Yeah,  
  • but you were producing good journalism. Yeah. What  were some of the challenges and triumphs that you  
  • encountered in producing the kind of journalism  that you felt was representative society?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, well, when I was working at the Dallas  
  • Morning News, I did. The League of United Latin  American citizens lulac was meshed in Horrible  
  • Bosses. The national president was suing one of  the local chapters in the local chapter was suing  
  • the national president, it was awful. Some of the  top leaders had been accused of ambulance chasing  
  • in connection with this big tragedy that happened  in South Texas. So it was this organization that  
  • had a proud history that was kind of falling  apart at the seams. So I wrote about that moodier  
  • and it was a big front page. story and I  interviewed people that were other other national  
  • organizations and the then nclr. Now it's me that  president Willie Segura interviewed him, I said,  
  • you know, what's going on with lulac. And, and  he was really blunt in his assessment, he said,  
  • Well, the problem is that they have, it's an all  volunteer staff, they don't have professional  
  • staff. And so that means that they don't have  a lot of continuity from one administration  
  • to the next. And he went on and on, it was, you  know, it's a really important context offer. So  
  • anyway, it was a fun page story. And then I  did, and then the conference was coming, the  
  • convention was coming up now querque, a few weeks  later, so I went to the convention to cover it.  
  • And by this time, it became a national story.  And so when I was covering this convention,  
  • they were so engrossed in their internal  problems that they never had any  
  • public events, like panels and stuff, it was  they were an executive session the entire time,  
  • people that I had known for years and years  were considered friends weren't speaking to me,  
  • because they felt like I had betrayed the Mexican  American community, because I had written this  
  • ugly story about what's going on. So my feeling  was that, I feel that, and I still feel very  
  • strongly that we, all of us, and not just Mexican  Americans are members of that group, I think that  
  • we have to hold these organizations accountable.  Because local chapters put a lot of money  
  • and time and effort into creating scholarships  and good good deeds for this organization. But  
  • they're not holding their leaders accountable.  And these leaders, I mean, some of them have been  
  • complete crooks have gone to prison. And I just,  I think that it's, it's, it's so wrong to me,  
  • it's really condescending to not hold them to the  same standards as we would any other organization.  
  • And I think until we start taking  ourselves more seriously, that way,  
  • it's going to be very hard for us to, to get these  organizations and bring them up to a level where  
  • they're professional, they're respected,  and people who are really serious are  
  • going to want to belong to them and to, you  know, contribute to those organizations.
  • Speaker 1: So do you  
  • think your colleagues in the newsroom  understood the dynamics of that story? And
  • Speaker 2: no, I don't think so. And I never discussed it  
  • with them, I just kind of sucked it up. And, you  know, I, there's still people to this day, that  
  • won't speak to me because of that. And I  think that, that it's true, anytime that  
  • you are at something negative, whatever your  group is about your group, you're going to be  
  • considered, you know, a traitor to your kind,  I think that's just part of the things. So  
  • you just have to be able to, to withstand that  and to believe that you're doing the right thing,  
  • and that you're unified by showing  a light on this, that you're you're,  
  • you're doing a public service, so  not not everybody's gonna like you.
  • Speaker 1: And you mentioned Tom Winship,  
  • but on the globe, how about your  editor, the Dallas Morning News,  
  • do you? Do you feel your editors got  it about diversity, and, you know,  
  • wanted to do more, despite being the first  Hispanic employee at the Boston Globe,
  • Speaker 2: To the greatest to  
  • mostly I do, however, what time of the Dallas  Morning News, our big editor brought in a  
  • diversity expert to talk to our minority  reporters. And so they brought all the  
  • African American and Hispanic reporters into a  room and we're supposed to fill out the survey  
  • about how we're being treated. But the survey  said, How are African Americans treated here? Are  
  • African Americans given a chance to be promoted?  And so I'm looking at this and I raised my hand,  
  • I said, Excuse me, I said, All this is about  African Americans. And and I said, and we're in  
  • Texas, and in Texas, where it's mostly Mexican  Americans. And the guy says, Oh, I'm just  
  • because he was coming from, from the east  coast. And so what he was looking at was  
  • just the African American experience. I think  that that said something about their idea of  
  • diversity. And I think a lot of people are still  caught up in that when they think of diversity.  
  • They think African American, and  they don't think really more broadly.  
  • And they don't look at the context of where we  are. So I think that continues to be an issue.
  • Speaker 1: 
  • Do you think your peers were open to discussions  about diversity at the places where you've worked?
  • Speaker 2: That's a good  
  • question, and not so much. I don't think  I think that for a lot of my colleagues,  
  • it was something that they didn't have to worry  about. Because those of us were people of color.  
  • We're worried about it. So I think I think that  we needed to get some buy in, because it doesn't  
  • matter what the people the very top wants to  enforce. If the people at the bottom aren't  
  • really with you all the way, I don't think only  you're gonna be as successful as you could be.
  • Speaker 1: You mentioned the group of  
  • students at UT Hispanic Latino students getting  started. And on the west coast, there was a  
  • big movement with the California Chicano needs  media Association. Talk a little bit about how  
  • you started your organization. And you may  have worked with that which morphed into the  
  • National Association of Hispanic journalists the  big contribution that you've made in journalism.
  • Speaker 2: Yeah. So. So  
  • you can see that it sounds like that was just  a college thing, right. But, but I was, but it  
  • made me really want to seek out because there are  so few of us seeking out other Mexican Americans.  
  • So my first job was at UPI in Dallas. And I  remember one time I was in the Regional Bureau,  
  • so I had to call New York. And the person who  I talked to in New York at the headquarters was  
  • named John Gonzalez. I said, John Gonzalez,  where are you from John, from San Antonio.  
  • And so I would always make those connections.  And it turned out much later, he ended up  
  • working at the Dallas Morning News and became  a really good friend. But when I was in Boston,  
  • I was invited to be part of this planning  committee for the first convention that  
  • was being held in San Diego in 1982. So it  was part of that planning for about a year.  
  • And so as part of that, I wrote letters to  as many Hispanic journalists as I could,  
  • that I knew, in the northeast, and told him  this was going on. And would they be willing,  
  • if like so. So it kind of started, we started  thinking about it and getting people involved. So  
  • we ended up having a fairly good representation,  so we went to the San Diego conference.  
  • And then from once a week, when you got there,  there were about 700 people, this convention  
  • conference, I should say, wasn't a convention  because we weren't an organization. But  
  • we're looking there. And we saw 700 people that  looked like you. And it had somewhat similar  
  • experiences. And it was really empowering. So we  knew just in the planning that we wanted to have  
  • a national organization. And so we started kind  of like trying to push CCNA, because CCNA was  
  • a large organization, and they already had a  track record, and they have some infrastructure,  
  • and they didn't want to have anything to do with  it. So that's when Jerry sasse stood up and said,  
  • at the very end, we're doing a post mortem of the  conference. And, and he basically told CCNA, well,  
  • if you're not going to be part of it, then  you need to get out of the way, because it's  
  • going to happen. And that's when CCNA came on  board. So then I was on the planning committee,  
  • the organizing committee for nh  J. And as part of that, it was,  
  • that was just exciting, because we went around  the country for our planning meetings and  
  • met people in different places. And, and we  got to, we got to meet people, you know, so  
  • just in the planning of it, they were Mexican  American, we're Puerto Rican, we are Cuban.  
  • It was great. It was great. And I did feel an  affinity to all the different people. There's  
  • some people I know that say, well, we really  don't have that much in common. I do feel  
  • like we do have a lot in common. I think that you  know, just by the nature of the Spanish language.  
  • I think that's a big part of it. But I do think  there's a lot of similarities and experiences.
  • Speaker 1: And it came to fruition  
  • in 1984 is the National Association of Hispanic  journalists. Yeah, I know, we're Incorporated.
  • Speaker 2: I think we're incorporating three.  
  • And then we thought we would  have conferences every year  
  • after that. So I guess 84 might have  been our first national conference.
  • Speaker 1: Was that in Washington?
  • Speaker 2: I believe so. I believe so.  
  • Yeah. You're at the University of Texas  at Austin, longtime member of the faculty,  
  • how in the world? Did you transition from the  world of journalism, to the world of academia?
  • Speaker 2: Well, I started a family.  
  • That's this. The short answer is, I had always  thought I was going to be because I really love  
  • journalism so much, I thought I would be  taken out deep first from the newsroom. And  
  • then I got married in 93. And 10 months later,  our first child was born. And I took a year off  
  • and worked as a journalist in residence at  UTEP. And then I got pregnant a second time.  
  • And so my last job covering the border, I was on  the road, three weeks out of a month, oftentimes.  
  • So I didn't want to do that anymore with  kids. And, and I knew about this program  
  • at North Carolina, but the Freedom Forum was  funding. I never thought about it for myself,  
  • but Then I thought I could do this. And  it's really fun. And it's a different thing.  
  • So that's how I ended up going to North  Carolina for the Freedom Forum fellowship?
  • Speaker 1: 
  • And how did you find that different from being  on the East Coast, going to school and be  
  • at a different time in your life working  on a PhD? What was that experience, like?
  • Speaker 2: It was a blur, it was really a blur.  
  • Because it was, it was a very intensive program.  In 26 months, you had to complete your PhD,  
  • right? So after 26 months, you could keep on  going, but the money dried up. So you had a  
  • real incentive to do everything in 26 months.  And so by this time, I had two small children,  
  • I started, you know, my, my second son was born.  In February, I started the program in mid May.  
  • So we moved to North Carolina, and I started  this program with two babies. And so it was  
  • very intense. So it really, it really was like  a blur. But, you know, my husband stayed home  
  • with the kids for 10 months. And then my younger  sister came and lived with us for a year. And,  
  • you know, so it was, it was a very intense  time. But at the end of it, I had a PhD.  
  • And I really did learn a lot at the great faculty  at North Carolina. And, and I was credited this  
  • Freedom Forum, because if it hadn't been for  that program, I never would have gone to graduate  
  • school. I'm not one of these people that was, you  know, I really want a PhD, it really wasn't that  
  • I wanted a PhD, I wanted to start teaching. And  to me, this was, this was kind of a union card.  
  • Well, and the Freedom Forum thought that they were  that we were good. All of the fellows were gonna  
  • go in and we were gonna, we're gonna transform  the Academy. And I think the kind of the opposite  
  • happened, I think we went in, and then we said,  Oh, my God, this is fascinating. Everything,  
  • you know, the papers that I would have read three  years earlier. So boring. All this is fascinating.  
  • And it was just it that really transformed me.  So I was really lucky to have gone to that.
  • Speaker 1: Now, what's  
  • your experience at Columbia different  from when you worked on a Master's?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, because that was a professional program.  
  • And so that was a program. You know, by that time,  I had already been working at the daily Texan on  
  • and off for three years and had taken a bunch  of reporting classes, but Columbia was a whole  
  • different level. And so it was very, very  rigorous. So you'd be writing every week,  
  • reporting every week and being held to very  strong standards. And, and so that was,  
  • that was a different kind of rigor. But it  was equally intense. And the other part of  
  • it going to Columbia was, you were living  in New York. And so here's this, you know,  
  • small town, Texas girl, going to UT  Austin, and then going to New York, and,  
  • and that was like, I would spend entire weekends  sleeping, because it was just too much. I was just  
  • on overload. It's like I kept. So I was I was it  was very, it was really intense. But I loved it,  
  • and strongly recommend it to anybody.  Now, it's really super expensive. So yeah.
  • Speaker 1: Tell us about your first teaching experience.
  • Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think it's important  
  • to note that, you know, I had started when I was  with the Boston Globe, I did the urban journalism  
  • workshops for two years. So they asked me to do  it. And so far, I think it was a two week program,  
  • both times so I did that for two years. And that  was kind of like my first foray into teaching. And  
  • then when I was at the Dallas Morning News, I did  the Maynard workshop in Berkeley for three years.  
  • So I go there for two weeks at a time for three  years. And I think that really did kind of give me  
  • at least a little bit of chops in teaching,  and working with people that had never taken  
  • a journalism class. So that was that was really  helpful to me, so my first and then I went to  
  • YouTube, and I taught there for a year. And so I  had kind of, it's kind of like every time that you  
  • do it, you kind of learn, get a new insight and  a different way of doing it and learning a little  
  • bit. So when I started at utl, and at North  Carolina, they had me teach a summer class.  
  • So I taught the summer reporting class, which was  really intensive. In fact, from that I've learned,  
  • I really prefer not to teach summer school if  I can, because it was really really, and I was  
  • taking a class at the same time. But anyway, so  I get to UT and they have me teaching kind of the  
  • basic reporting classes. And I really love doing  that, you know, it was it was the intermediate  
  • reporting. So they had already learned about how  to write a lead and how to organize a new story.  
  • So it was a little bit more fun. At the time,  we were like 45 students, but then you'd break  
  • into three different labs you had to use for all  these. So it was fun. It was really enjoyable.
  • Speaker 1: Do you find in academia a  
  • need for greater diversity?  Have you seen that in your work?
  • Speaker 2: Yes. As far as faculty,  
  • you know, in the 20 years that I've  been there, we have not hired another  
  • Hispanic, Latino, Latina, faculty member. And, and  it's something that I feel very strongly about.  
  • And I understand the structural reasons for  it, because oftentimes, when departments are  
  • looking for a position, they're looking  for something, a very specific skill set.  
  • And so they want somebody who does social media,  or research into social media, they're looking for  
  • that particular profile. And as long as you have  that particular profile, it's not going to happen.  
  • So I think that we need to, we, our department,  that it's not for lack of wanting, but we need to,  
  • we need to crack that nut. What I worry about  in my department, and I've told them all this,  
  • is that the day that I turned in my resignation,  that's the day that they'll get more serious  
  • about the hiring, that they're Hispanic, because  that happened to me at the Boston Globe, you know,  
  • for a long time, I'd go and I'd say, we need  to look at this person, look at this person.  
  • And they'd say, yeah, yeah. So the day I turned  in my resignation was when the city editor said,  
  • oh, let's talk about this, let's find  another Hispanic reporter. So you know,  
  • it shouldn't be a question of replacing, it should  be a question of augmenting what we have there.  
  • And it makes a big difference that the enrollment  of Hispanic students has really increased since  
  • I've been there. And I and one thing that we  really need is we need role models for these.  
  • And you know, it's not just a role model  for the Hispanic kids. But it's kind of an  
  • added thing that I do think that we need  to make sure that we take care of that
  • Speaker 1: In Austin of all places,  
  • and you would think in Texas of all  places. Yeah, that wouldn't be an issue.
  • Speaker 2: But yes, it is.
  • Speaker 1: Either other  
  • cops. So that's a challenge, certainly, but are  there any kind of challenges or triumphs that  
  • you've encountered working on  diversity? She's in the academy?
  • Speaker 2: 
  • I guess one thing that we've done is I think that  oftentimes, if, if you say that you want to do  
  • something, you're not told that you can't do it.  And so I've been teaching this world history class  
  • that's dedicated to the Latino experience for a  million years. And, and that's been that's been  
  • something that I think we've, we've brought to  the table. So you know, every spring I teach it,  
  • it's something different about the Latino  experience. It's gonna be really loud.  
  • Can you hear that? Okay. So I think that that's  gonna, you know, so that's something I've been  
  • able to introduce as some classes. So I did  teach, covering the US Mexico border for a while.  
  • I've taught this other class, I am teaching now a  class reporting in espanol. And so there's classes  
  • that you can propose and you can bring in and I've  never been said, told to know. So I do think that  
  • that's possible. There's a lot of programs that  are brought in roundtables, panel discussions on,  
  • we did a panel discussion on the channels  instead of cells and comunicazioni,  
  • as an anniversary of that some years ago. We did  other things on Spanish language news, news media.  
  • So those are things but you know, to really  change structurally, there has to be some  
  • ways of building it into institutionalizing  it. And I think that's the challenge that we  
  • have right now. institutionalizing  all the changes that we've made.
  • Speaker 1: Talk a little  
  • bit about the Voces project that you're  so passionate about and you worked on and  
  • you've had a book and conferences  and tell us a little about it.
  • Speaker 2: So that comes out of a  
  • story that I wrote for the Dallas Morning News.  It was a profile of the Mexican American Legal  
  • Defense and Educational Fund, MALDEF. So as I was  doing the profile I interviewed the founder whose  
  • name is Pete the Idina, who is practicing law in  downtown San Antonio. And so I went to interview  
  • him and at the end of the interview, I found  out he was a world war two veteran, I said, Oh,  
  • really, my father's a world war two veteran and he  said, Yeah, all of us old Civil rights, war horses  
  • world World War Two veterans, and I said, I said,  Oh, my gosh, so I said, I want to do a magazine  
  • story about that. So doing the magazine story,  I couldn't find any books about them that knew  
  • about oral history. And so that was in 1992 and  93. And, and so, we wanted to launch it from 93.  
  • An oral history project is dedicated to the world  war two generation. That was the generation that  
  • created new institutions like MALDEF, the GI  Forum, it tore down barriers to entry for a lot  
  • of people. It desegregates a lot of institutions,  universities, colleges, and semi public schools  
  • in Texas and the Southwest. So they had done  a lot. And they really had never gotten there.  
  • There has never been a single book written just  about their experience. And so, you know, then  
  • life intervened. I went off, got married, went to  graduate school. When I started at UT Austin, they  
  • allowed me to teach a class that I could teach  any way I wanted to and had a newspaper component.  
  • And so that class became the oral history class  that I do now. So we've changed, we started off  
  • with World War Two for many semesters, we did  the Vietnam generation for many semesters now  
  • we're doing, we change off different semesters,  we're doing political and civic engagement now.  
  • And so every time we do one of these, it's just  amazing, the the, the material that you get out  
  • of it, and things that nobody has written about  yet. So my students are getting a chance to do  
  • interviews with people that were involved in, in,  in in, you know, activities that really have not  
  • been researched. So that all will go into a book  someday, either I'll do it or somebody will do it.
  • Speaker 1: 
  • That's amazing. Now you spent  some time working at KUT Austin.  
  • And you also have had your students working on  stories for K UT talk a little bit about that.
  • Speaker 2: Yeah. So I didn't really do radio before  
  • and I really love radio. So I asked my department  chair and he in turn, RV Brenner asked our Dean,  
  • we met with the dean, we had a proposal to, for  me to spend a semester working as a full time  
  • reporter at the NPR station in the same building  where my office is housed. And we met with the  
  • general manager, Stu Vanderbilt, and proposed it,  the department would pay my salary just as if I  
  • was teaching. But I would be a full time reporter  for KUT Wow. And so they said, Well, sure,  
  • we'd love that. So you know that it's kind of one  of these things where everybody's really busy. So  
  • nobody has a chance to teach you anything. So I  kind of had to teach myself to audition. And then  
  • I worked with a really great editor at large, he  is the managing editor there. So I got a chance to  
  • write stories. And I you know, to me, it was  really more about getting the skills not so much  
  • having the like the great story. And so I was  willing to do anything that would get me just  
  • some experience, going out recording interviews,  recording audio, and then editing it into a piece.  
  • So I did some I did, you know, basically, I did  everything from you know, fuel efficient cars to,  
  • to a bunch of stories. I mean, it was really fun.  I just had a blast. And so I really invested in  
  • audio now and I taught audio storytelling for the  first time last year, I'll teach it again in fall.  
  • I now want to develop a podcasting class.  So I'll teach that in the fall of 2019.  
  • So yeah, it's kind of a whole different world.  And I do think that it's really important for us  
  • to teach the skills classes to stay current,  
  • because oh my gosh, everything has changed so  much in the 20 years that I've been teaching,  
  • we didn't have social media. When I was a student,  we didn't have any of this stuff. So it's really  
  • important for us to stay current and it's  important for our students that we stay current.
  • Speaker 1: And were you able in that  
  • position also to to bring your passion about  diversity into coverage or to thinking about
  • Speaker 2: Yeah, to some extent,  
  • I did, I did a lot of stories because they  had this one initiative on East Austin,  
  • which, which was the kind of the home place  for the African American, and to some extent,  
  • the Mexican American community. So I did a  lot of stories about African Americans mainly.  
  • And those were really fun. And  those were stories that I felt  
  • had not, had not gotten a lot of attention. So  amazing character, kind of character sketches of  
  • people that were real community leaders,  you know, a guy who had a funeral home  
  • in East Austin, and you know, he's just this  really amazing, delightful guy to interview that,  
  • that that's what I said there was a story that  I didn't get to air until this past year that I  
  • recorded. I started recording, but it took a long  time to cultivate. So I kept on cultivating and  
  • cultivating. And finally it all fell together. And  so in, in, in June of this year, it finally aired.
  • Speaker 1: Wow, yeah. So it does take a while.
  • Speaker 2: Sometimes it does. And you know,  
  • I think that's the other part of it is it's really  important if you're doing stories about diversity,  
  • in particular. A lot of people don't trust news  reporters because they're used to seeing it just  
  • there whenever stuff, bad stuff is happening, and  so forth. For us to go in and try to cultivate,  
  • it oftentimes takes a lot of time. So that's the  other cost of diversity is news organizations have  
  • to really be invested in it enough to let  it take the time that it's going to take.
  • Speaker 1: But if diversity takes a backseat,  
  • what will be the effect? If news  organizations don't make that investment? If  
  • the academy doesn't make that investment?  What do you think the effect will be?
  • Speaker 2: I don't think we'll ever get back to as bad as  
  • it was in the 60s. And before, I don't think that  that that ship has sailed. And, and mainly it's  
  • sailed, because there are now a lot more people of  color, and a lot more people who are not of color,  
  • but who are vested in diversity, so that that's  not going to change. So there's still going to be  
  • more diversity than there had been. However,  we still have a long ways to go a really long  
  • ways to go. And I think that it's really not  enough just to have the numbers, it's not enough  
  • to say we have, we now have 20% of our of our  newsroom is this, you know, we really need to  
  • teach people and raise their awareness. So  they're unable to understand the context,  
  • all the stories that I'd cover as a covering  the US Mexico border, and it started off being  
  • a nice little story about this topic. And then  people would come up, and they would tell me  
  • the context of this nice little story. And it  would make it a much deeper, more serious story.  
  • That's the thing that our young that all  of us need to understand that, you know,  
  • that that's that it takes a real effort to do  that. And our young people have to understand  
  • that this is what is required. And so they need  to understand the history. Why is it that? Why?  
  • What is this whole immigration thing about?  What is it what's the background of immigration,  
  • it didn't just isn't something  that just started yesterday or  
  • today? What's the whole background of kids  being torn from their parents? You know,  
  • this is something we've seen it before.  And so if they understand that context,  
  • they'll be able to do a much, much more  serious journalism than they would otherwise.
  • Speaker 1: 
  • Do, you have a fondest memory of something you've  done in journalism, or in the academy. So far,
  • Speaker 2: you know what I one that really  
  • the thing that I did for NAHJ was, I created  a conference newspaper with a lot of people,  
  • but it was an H j reporter, and we did it in 1988.  in Dallas, many, many years later, I did it with  
  • a TMJ, I remember did that for a couple years.  And so and it's not something that I was like,  
  • there's a bunch of us together, and we all  work together. And I think that that was like  
  • one of the most fun things. Because when you work  with people, you just look at the human in them.  
  • And I think that that was one of the most fun  for a lot of the students that were involved in  
  • a snake newspaper, for instance, they had never  worked with somebody who is Asian American,  
  • or somebody who has an excellence they  had never done that. And all of a sudden,  
  • these are your These are your, your cohort this is  these are your editors. And I think that changes  
  • the dynamic in a much more profound way. And I  think that that's when it stops being just kind of  
  • an exercise in diversity, it becomes embedded and  it's in our bones. And it's something that we just  
  • do as a matter of course. So that's really kind  of the most fun. And it was just fun, just kind of  
  • like building something from scratch, and seeing  as it develops. And then after you've left it that  
  • it becomes something much better than you could  have ever dreamed of. That's really gratifying.
  • Speaker 1: You mentioned that  
  • Hispanics had never worked with Asian Americans.  And that leads me to be thinking about the Unity  
  • conventions and the things that went on there  with the different groups working together.  
  • And we could probably talk forever, but we're just  about out of time. Is there anything else that you  
  • want to share with this project, the trailblazers  project that you think it's important to testify?
  • Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think that, you know,  
  • the trailblazers are doing something that's really  essential in journalism education. And it's that  
  • the people that are being interviewed right now  are people that have made different contributions  
  • in lots of different ways. And it's something  that we need to keep the spotlight shining on  
  • diversity, because it's going to increasingly  become something that is an afterthought for a  
  • lot of people. So as long as we can do that, and  this is one effective way of doing it, we know
  • Speaker 1: well, Maggie, that small town girl from divine has  
  • really made some contributions in the journalism  world and with the academy and the Trailblazer.  
  • So thank you for spending this time and  sharing with You with us your memories.