Lisa O'Donnell oral history | Briscoe Center Digital Collections

Transcript

All right. Well, good afternoon.
I am David Todd, and
I have the privilege of being
on the line with Lisa O'Donnell.
And with her permission, we plan
on recording this interview for
research and educational
work on behalf of a nonprofit
group called the Conservation
History Association of Texas,
and for a book and a website for
Texas A&M University Press,
and finally, for inclusion
in an archive at the Briscoe Center
for American History, which
is located at the University of
Texas at Austin.
And I wanted to add
and stress that she would have
all rights to use the recording as
she sees fit as
well.
And I wanted to make sure that's
okay with you.
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Okay. Well, good.
Well, then let's, let's get started.
It is Thursday,
June 30th, 2022.
It's about 2:45
Central Time.
And again, my name is David Todd,
and I am representing
the Conservation History Association
of Texas, affectionately
known as "CHAT".
And I'm in Austin and
we are conducting a remote interview
with Mrs. O'Donnell, who is based
in Austin as well.
She is an endangered species
biologist and has
worked for a decade for
the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
and then with the City of
Austin's Watershed Protection
Department from 2001 to
2007.
And since then, as senior
biologist with the city's Balcones
Canyonlands Preserve,
where she is responsible for
managing and monitoring and
researching the preserve, ecosystems
and species.
Through much of her career, she has
been involved in study and care
for the golden-cheeked warbler,
and she also was involved
in work with the black-capped vireo
dating back to the 1980s.
Today we will talk
about her life and career to date,
and especially focus on her
work with the golden-cheeked
warbler.
And I very much hope that
we'll also have time to discuss her
efforts on behalf of the
black-capped vireo
as well.
So with that little
introduction, I wanted to ask
you about your childhood
and early years, and if there might
have been some people or events,
occasions of some kind,
in your life
that influenced your interest in
animals?
Yes, I
was going to say my, at least my
parents have told me that I have,
I've always been interested
in animals.
And they actually would tell me
the story of my first word,
which I guess I started
talking at a later
age. I don't know how old I was, but
they said my first word was,
"flower", and
they were just thrilled to hear me
actually start talking.
But that that was my first word.
And then, you know, we always had
animals, and
my grandparents had animals.
And so, I
just grew up thinking I was going to
be a veterinarian.
And I also grew
up, you know, when I was
ten or so, you know,
a little bit younger, just I
grew up during that time when all
this environmental legislation was
being passed,
so the Endangered Species Act and
the Clean Air Act and the Clean
Water Act.
So, even if that wasn't affecting
me, you know, directly,
if I didn't know exactly what was
going on, I think
that it had to have had, you know,
an influence.
I do remember my parents talking to
me about the Endangered Species Act.
I remember going around
raising money.
I would go ask my neighbors for
money to send for endangered
species. So, so, yeah,
something I've always been
interested in,
and also just in in science
and conservation.
And I remember one time
being upset about,
I think it was like a proposed
mine or something that was
a mine that was proposed in
the Rocky Mountains.
And I was really upset about it.
And my mom said, "Well, you don't
sit there and feel bad about it.
You need to do something about it.
You need to write a letter." And so,
she helped me craft
a letter that I then sent
off to whoever.
And I don't remember who at this
point. But, you know,
just in terms of, you know, you
don't just sit around and feel bad,
you need to do something
about things.
So that sense of responsibility
came in early.
And then my dad, I remember being,
just trying to instill, you know,
the importance of conservation, like
even water, like, you know,
you need to, you know, not waste
water and be conscious of
that.
And so, and he was really interested
in conservation as well and worked
with prairie dogs.
And then science, you know, I was
interested in science too.
I remember having like a little
study group with my friends and
I think I was in the fourth grade at
the time, and we would come
up with like a science question and
try to answer it in our own way,
which wasn't very good.
At the time we didn't know what we
were doing, but we at least tried
and at least had the interest.
So yeah, I think those are some of
the some of the highlights for me.
Well, and you mentioned your parents
and your grandparents,
and then this study
group.
Were there, were there
any teachers
or folks who were outside of your
immediate friend group or
your nuclear family who
might have said, "You know, this
is something that's of value, or
this is something that might
interest you."
Yes, I remember a teacher
that I had in the fifth grade who
worked on, she
was part of a group that worked on
animal protection,
like protection from cruelty.
I think it was called.
What was it, CAP, like ... I don't
know. Anyway, but it was a group
to try to protect animals
from, you know, cruelty.
And so, she actually got me
to go to a meeting with her.
I mean, I went with my mom and I
met her there.
That's interesting.
So there was
kind of a political angle
to some of this that you were
going to meetings and you were
writing letters.
But then on the other hand, you had
this interest in
the science of
it, with your study group.
It seems like you had a kind of
multi-faceted
interest in animals.
Yes, I think, I, you
know, I was always convinced, even
going up to, you know, where
I was going to apply for college, I
just assumed I was going to be a
veterinarian.
And so when I was looking
for colleges, that's just what, I
guess that's like, kind of the next
thing we'll talk about.
But, but
yeah, I, I,
even though my focus was
on, on animals and animal health
at the time,
I think of the broader influence.
I think of that environmental
legislation, of my parents and
that one teacher, I
think that there was enough
broader influence that
would kind of steer me in the
direction that I ended up on in.
Here's something else I heard you
say. You said you
grew up at that time when there
was just a whole raft of
environmental laws that were passed
- I guess,
Clean Water, Clean Air, Endangered
Species and so on, in the early
seventies.
And that you were sort of maybe
picking up on the tenor of the
times.
Were there, were there possibly
other things that were kind
of in the air, you know,
like literally on the
broadcast signals in TV
shows, or maybe movies
that were common at the time, or
books that were out in
the press that you might have read
or seen?
You know, I don't remember anything
at that young age.
Like, my grandmother would always
send me books on,
you know, like wildlife books, type
books for,
you know, birthdays or Christmas
or whatever.
But I don't,
I mean, my parents might be able to
remember something, but
I can't think of anything that was,
like, really obvious, that really
stands out.
I think it was just kind of,
just stuff that I was sort of
absorbing, if that makes sense, sort
of subconsciously?
Yeah, sort of by osmosis.
It was just something that was in
people's, on people's minds.
Yeah.
That you might have heard.
Okay. All right.
So, you said that
you were kind of on a trajectory for
vet
school or, you know, to study
animal medicine, I guess.
Can you describe
your arc through
higher education?
You went to the University of Texas
and got a B.S.
in zoology.
Can you talk about your experience
there?
Yes. And before that, I actually
went to the University of California
at Santa Barbara,
and then I transferred to the
University of Texas.
But when I was
at, we just called it UCSB, they
had an environmental studies program
and there was a professor there.
I think he's even still there -
Rob Nash.
And he was the one that kind of
headed up this environmental studies
program. And that was huge
for me
because I had not actually been
exposed to any of that in Texas.
So, when I was out in California,
people were talking about, you know,
conserving water.
Interestingly enough, I don't
remember any fires or any issues
on those lines that we hear about
now, but it was all about
saving water and people, you
know, even had little signs up, you
know, all around the school of like,
"turn off your faucet".
Those were things I had never heard
of, aside from my dad telling me.
But, I didn't
hear it like generally.
So, when I was at UCSB,
I, you know, again, I just thought,
"Oh, I'm going to take my science
classes, I'm going to end up going
to A&M or someplace
like that." And my
college roommate, who was also,
you know, in the science group (we
were all kind of in the
environmental studies
dorm; there
was a floor).
And she was the one that after
a while she said, "You know,
you really like animals and really
want to help them being a
veterinarian", she said.
"But you really ought to think about
being an ecologist because
you can do more.
You can help more animals by
focusing on the habitat."
And that really clicked.
So I think between having that
environmental studies influence.
You know, we read books like, "Do
Trees, Should Trees Have Standing?"
I mean, that was like again, like
all of the stuff that they were
teaching were just
huge and, you know, really
eye-opening for me.
And so that's when I decided to
switch. I was like, "Yes, I
definitely want to be an ecologist."
I also, during
that time, when was it, must have
been 1984,
I
signed up to go out
on a field expedition to Glacier
Bay, and it was with the School
for Field Studies.
And so
we spent four weeks
in Glacier Bay kayaking.
And we didn't do any heavy research,
but it was just, that was
another like, just this huge
experience for me.
It also taught me, being from
Texas, I
was cold and wet for four weeks.
It was really uncomfortable.
The whole time, I kept wanting to go
home because I was so cold and wet.
But the experience was amazing.
I mean, we were, we're surrounded by
whales and seals
and, you know,
just, birds and I mean, it was just,
it was just phenomenal
and just beautiful.
And so, and then I just
learned that, you know, I
learned how to stay warm.
I learned that it's better to
be warm than have
clean clothes that are wet
and cold.
So yeah, so that was definitely
a growing experience
because it kind of took the city
girl out into the field.
But after that,
I did a couple of more,
you know,
outings, I guess, volunteering
at that point with the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service.
I went back to Alaska for two
different summers
to do, and we actually did real
fieldwork at that point.
I went to Cape Pierce,
which is like on the tip of Bristol
Bay.
And we did,
like, we counted walrus,
we counted seabirds and monitored
productivity.
You know, that was just another
really phenomenal
experience.
And then the following year, I went
to the Seal Islands
with just one other person and we
lived out on these islands
and studied sea birds.
Actually, it was puffins.
We were looking at what they were
eating.
And so, we studied puffins for a
couple of, a couple of months.
And so that was between
the Glacier Bay and even though I
was really cold.
But those two subsequent
field excursions as a volunteer,
that's when I just, I just got
hooked. I'm like, "Yeah, this is
what I want to do. I want to be a
field biologist, and be
outside and collect
data."
And so, yeah, so
it all kind of started coalescing
at that point.
I was going to say one other really
influential person at that time
was at the University of Texas, and
he was a teaching assistant for
an ecology class that I took.
And he, I would
ask him questions periodically.
I'm like, you know, I
can't even think of a question that
I did ask him, but I know I asked
him a lot of questions and his
response was always,
"Look it up."
And I remember that was like the
first time because you're, you're
used to being spoon-fed.
It's like, "Hey, I'm paying you for
this college education.
So, tell me, you know, you're
supposed to give me the answers."
And I remember
that I got basically
throughout all of my college career
by having somebody tell me that.
Yeah.
So you became sort of an autodidact,
I guess, at an
early, early age.
Yeah. It's critical thinking.
It's like, you know, like
don't have people just spoon-feed
you.
You need to go look things up and
research it yourself.
And so I think that was really
instrumental. And I'm hoping that
more professors and teachers,
you know, teaching assistants
are doing that for students.
It actually does a disservice
in a lot of ways to just keep giving
you information.
You need to, at some point, get off
on your own and start looking things
up and questioning and
finding answers for yourself.
Right, right.
Well, so
I am sort of struck by
one thing,
that you
seem to have a broad
interest in
not just a particular
creature.
I mean, that you've studied
everything from walruses
to puffins to sea birds
of various kinds,
and then more recently, these
warblers and
vireos. And I think you mentioned
that you
had an interest in ecology
as much as biology,
perhaps. Is that fair to say?
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I would say endangered
species science, kind of
as a general rule.
It's, I think, another
just common theme throughout my life
is just, you know, sticking
up for the underdog.
I think endangered species are
underdogs, but
whatever people don't seem to like
or take on, or they're having
trouble, but those are the things
I naturally sort of gravitate
toward.
But yeah, like Ashe juniper is one
of the things - I think we'll be
talking about that later.
Yeah. Just rare species
and,
yeah, even species that are not
rare, but get picked on a lot.
Coyotes is another one.
But yeah, anything that I, that
I happen to
research, I
get real attached and kind of throw
everything into it.
And it just happens to be I
just kind of landed in Austin
and golden-cheeked warblers
and cave invertebrates and
salamanders and vireos.
Fortunately, it's a hotspot.
It's a biological hotspot.
So, you know, you can cover lots
of different things in this one
area.
Well, but
underlying the
vireo and warbler and other
endangered species work
you've done, is it fair to say
that there's
a kind of current of.
[Oh, David, just lost you.]
[Yeah, it still seems unstable.
Can you hear me now?]
Uh oh.
Can you hear me?
Are you breaking up now?
I can't.
Huh.
Are you there, Lisa?]
[I can hear you now.
You just came back on.].
[Okay.
So, I think we may have
a little problem
with the computer connection.
[Oh.].
[So what I'm going to suggest, just
so that we don't lose
valuable things that you are
trying to tell us, is
that we use a telephone
hook-up.
Oh, okay.
And so
what I'll do is email
you a phone number you can call
and
we'll just resume here.
And that
is, is usually much more reliable
if there's a funky thing going
on with the computer.
Okay.
Connection.
If you have a landline,
that's often wise
to use.
I don't.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
You've got a cell phone.
Does it, does it
use Wi-Fi? Does it have a pretty
good signal there?].
[Yeah, I think so.
I've never had a problem with it.]
[Okay. All right, well, let's try
that, and, yeah, so
if you could just regroup
in just a minute or so.
Call me once you get the number and,
and we'll go forth.]
[Okay.]
[Do good stuff!]
[If it okay just for me to, let me,
I need to run get a, it looks like
the battery is going down on it.
So let me go get a charger for it.]
[Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
You do that.]
[If that's okay, to charge it?]
[Yeah. Yeah. Why don't we do that?
All right.]
[This call is now being recorded.]
[Hello, Lisa?]
[Well, hey, David.]
[Well, we meet again.
Thank you for trying this
other route,
I think, this is
a little bit more stable.]
[Hopefully you're able to get some
of that.]
[Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I think we'll
do just fine.
But I just would have made sure that
we didn't lose the thread.
Sometimes it can be kind
of disjointed if
you know, you can't get a
complete thought in without wondering
if the recording is not being made.
So...]
Right. Right.
Thank you very much.
Um, so I did have a
question that I wanted to ask you.
You know, listening to you talk
about your
interests in sort of sticking
up for endangered species
and underdogs in general,
made me wonder if there's a kind
of a thread of,
of seeking justice and fairness
in the work that you do,
aside from the biology and ecology.
Oh, yeah.
That's huge. I hate
injustice. It's like the worst,
especially these days.
So, yeah, it's kind of an
ongoing work of resistance.
But absolutely.
It is definitely that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Justice is definitely a
key thing.
I hadn't really thought about it,
you know, articulating it
specifically, but yeah.
Yeah, it definitely is.
Okay. Well, this helps
sort of understand maybe some of the
motivation. I mean, you know, it's
not something you think
about front-of-mind every day.
But I guess this maybe
is behind the scenes?
Yeah. That reminds me of one other
thing too.
I've been told since I was really
small
that I'm very persistent.
And I remember asking
my parents and I'm like, things keep
happening.
And they said, "Well ..."
(I think they thought I was kind of
annoying, but they said,
"It can be a good thing if you use
it right." And so
I think about that a lot too
is that yeah, hanging
in there, being to
persistent is real key too -
the kind of personality trait
that I got saddled with
may help.
Yeah. Well, it's interesting.
You can get worlds
of education and training
and career experiences, but
maybe some of this really hinges
on what sort of personality you
have.
Yeah.
So I thought we might move on to
talk a little bit about your career.
I understand that you
began your
work as a consultant
for a firm called DLS
Associates doing biological
surveys for rare birds.
And sometimes that first job
can have a big impact.
I was wondering if you could talk
about.
Yeah. Yeah.
David Steed, that's actually what
"DLS" stands for: David Lewis Steed.
So, he was my boss.
He actually hired me because I
wrote not a very good paper
on some of the work that I'd done at
Cape Fears.
But he said he really liked it and
that was why he hired me and
I worked for him for four years.
And, you know, again, I was really
interested in doing field work and
so I was able to do that with him.
He had contracts with
the county and the highway
department.
I think those were the two main
funding sources.
And so, at that point,
you know, often the
Texas Department of Transportation
was looking at
building an outer
loop,
Austin's outer loop. I think they just called it
the Austin Outer Loop. I forgot what
they called it, but it was going to
be this big loop around the city and
it would go through some of these
really environmentally sensitive
areas.
And I started working for
him in 1987, which
was the same year that the
black-capped vireo got listed as
endangered.
And so, our
job was to go looking for
black-capped vireos,
both, you know, to see
what the impact might be from the
highway, and
so finding them and locating them.
And then also for the
county: the county had a different
project that they were working on as
well.
And so, yeah, so we just
were able to go hiking
all over the place back then.
So, I think a lot of it
was like old ranch land.
There was a lot of land that also
went into, you know, when they had
that whole Savings & Loan thing
that kind of bailed out, where a lot
of lands went into the RTC.
So we, we weren't really
on like small like
private property, so we never had
anybody give us a hard time
being out there.
They were just more curious.
We'd have people stop us and ask if
what we're looking for.
But yeah, so
it definitely
got me out in the field, got me very
familiar with
was what was out in western Travis county,
and in particular, the
black-capped vireo at that time.
Okay.
Golden-cheeked warblers singing n
the background.
Right. Right.
Most have been
similar sites.
So
I guess the next step for you
after working in DLS
was
to move to the
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, where you were
from '91 to 2001
and then after that,
the City of Austin's Watershed Protection
program, 2001 to 2007,
and then most recently to
the Balcones Canyonlands Preserve, under the City
of Austin, since 2007.
And what I thought was really
intriguing about that is that you
seem to have
worked on sort of similar problems
and similar habitat, but
wearing different hats.
I mean, going from working for
the private sector to then
working for the feds,
to working for a municipal
agency.
You know, can you compare
what those were like, those
different experiences, different
employers and offices?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, they were all
big learning experiences, I
would say DLS Associates was just
getting familiar with
the species and the habitat,
and learning all about that.
And I'm so glad I got out there when
I did, because, you know, I was able
to go out on a ranch when it was
still a ranch and when there were
still cows and, you know,
just getting to see all of that
before, before it got developed.
So, I think just learning about
the species and the habitat at that
time.
Um, and then also I guess
it was around 1987,
1988, that the discussion
started about,
"we need a habitat conservation
plan", because there were,
fortunately we had a lot of people
with foresight and said,
"Look, this area is going to go.
This is a really unique, special
area, very rich biologically,
ecologically." And so, they
started working on this
regional habitat conservation plan.
The vireo was kind of the initial
focus.
But it really isn't at the heart of
the vireo's range.
So it gradually became more about
the golden-cheeked warbler, once the warbler
got listed as endangered.
And then, of course, the cave
invertebrates were listed.
And then the salamanders got listed,
which was kind of a political
curveball for the politicians.
But when I was at DLS Associates,
David Speed was on the Scientific
Advisory Committee.
And so, I was able to sit in
on those meetings and just listen.
We would also go to the executive
committee meetings.
And so, as
the field biologist working for
David, you know, I had access
and just listening to these
conversations.
And then when I moved over
to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service, it was right after
the warbler got listed
as endangered.
And, you
know, they opened up the Austin
office. So, I was there when they
opened the office up and
it was mainly in response to the
listing of the warbler, that, you
know, people were so upset,
you know, what are we going to do?
You know, we need help with,
you know, can we move forward with
this project or not?
And so my job there was
to say you know, because I knew the
species, I knew the habitat well
enough at that point, I would
review what we call, "bird letters".
People would send something on and
say, "This is my project, this is my
property.
Do you think it will cause "take"
or impact?"
And so that was my job all day long,
was just to sit and review,
you know, and they ended up with
like filing cabinet drawers full
of these letters and our responses.
And I was also there when they were
working on the golden-cheeked
warbler recovery plan and the
black-capped vireo recovery plan.
And then I kind of switched over to
working on that Barton Springs
salamander and I
worked on the proposed rule
to list that species, and then also
the final rule.
And so, I think the difference
was like, you know, when I worked
for David,
you're on the ground.
You're looking very close
at something.
And then when you go to work...
so that was a learning experience.
And I think really, really key
and really important to take with
me to the Fish and Wildlife Service.
And at the Fish and Wildlife
Service, you've got to stand
back. So, you're just looking
landscape-wise, you're looking
big-picture.
And so, that was like a huge,
you know, another big broadening
experience for me, because
when you're looking at recovery
plans and listings,
you've got to just look at the, you
know, like the,
yeah, the big picture, I guess.
And I don't think everybody has
that opportunity, you know, to be
able to see at both levels
kind of the, you know, the very,
very close up and then the farther
away.
And then
I decided after
ten years of being
in an office, I just felt like I was
still too young and my heart was,
you know, working in the field.
And so that's when I went back to
work for the City.
I knew they had a job coming open
working with salamanders, doing the
field work.
And then the other thing I forgot to
mention when I was with the Fish and
Wildlife Service,
even though I wasn't directly
involved, my boss
at the time, Joe Johnson, was
involved in
working on the Fish and Wildlife
side of things of the,
you know, the regional habitat
conservation plan that became
the Balcones Canyonlands
Conservation Plan, and ultimately
the Balcones Canyonlands Preserve.
So, I heard all of those
discussions, was privy
to some of the meetings,
and, you know, the documents
and things that they were putting
together.
And then when I,
then when I went to work for the
BCP, where I work now, it's
like, yeah, this is, this is it.
This is where I wanted to be all
along really.
And it's neat that you
were there,
you know, in early days, as you said
before some of this land got
developed, and before
some of these institutions really
got created, whether it was the Fish
and Wildlife Service offices
in Austin, or the Preserve
being created in the Hill Country
near, near the city.
Yeah, and one of the first
regional habitat conservation plans
in the country. I don't think it's
the first, but it was one of them.
And yeah, it was, it was huge.
It was just an amazing
undertaking. And I'm so privileged
to be able to work, you know,
in this place now.
[Hope you're there, David. Oh no, did I lose you there?]
[Hello?]
[Oh, yeah.
So, it's doing it here, too.
That's very weird.]
[Did you lose the signal for a
little bit?]
[No. I mean, I'm looking at my
what is it, a router?
I don't know what this thing is,
but...]
[Yeah.]
[But I'm, yes, I'm losing you.
I, I lost you there for
a couple minutes.]
[Oh, no. Well, um, well, so
maybe I can just try to restate
it or ask the
question again.]
I thought it was interesting that
you were at Fish and Wildlife
Service as a
pretty young person.
And you were
being asked to issue these bird
letters
to decide whether a
take was likely to
be involved in a given development
or project.
And that just seems like a
huge amount of responsibility,
sort of godlike.
Did it strike you that way, or
did you feel like you
were just sort of another
cog in the chain and, you know, you
were just doing your job as you
came in each day, it wasn't terribly
dramatic.
Yeah. I felt like it was just my
job.
When I first started, we
were, I was in Arlington for three
months,
and so there was a little bit of a
buffer and distance from people.
And then I got to know my boss
in Austin really well.
And Joe was the one that ultimately
would decide everything.
Um, but they
wanted, at least what I was
told, was that they wanted me
because I had that on-the-ground
experience and I could identify
habitat and look at the particular
impact.
But I
try to remember if my name ...
I'm sure my name was on those
letters, too, but I think
ultimately, you know,
the field supervisor
is the one that signed off on those
things. So they, I would be like the
first call, and then my supervisor
would review it, and then the
field supervisor for the office
would ultimately, you
know, make the final call.
So, so I never, I
just more felt like I was glad
that I had the experience
and, you know, the ability
to at least identify
habitat.
Got you.
Well, so, you
know, you talk about this experience
that you got when
you were first
working with DLS
and the chance to be on the ground.
And I was hoping that you could tell
us about what your first
encounter.
[Oh, you just broke up again.]
[Did I! Oh gosh.]
My first encounter
...
With the golden-cheeked warbler?
Right.
So could you describe what that was
like?
Yeah.
So, the world of the golden-cheek
was kind of in the background for me
for a long time.
And so, I, I can't remember
my first experience with the
golden-cheeked because I was so
focused on black-capped vireos.
I do remember taking somebody out to
show them their first golden-cheeked
warbler and I was working for David
Steed, and, you
know, and he was just, you know,
in awe of this little bird.
But I didn't really get
to know the warbler really until I
came to work for the City,
basically.
So I knew it.
I knew the habitat.
I knew, you know, I
knew generally about them.
I was able to sit in on the recovery
planning,
but I didn't feel like I
had a real strong connection
until, until I came to
work for the City and
worked with them first-hand.
I see. Okay.
Well, and, you know, once you did
some sort of get some sort
of familiarity with the bird,
what did you learn about its life
history?
Is there kind of a
101, basic
introduction you could give us
to the bird's life.
Well, just as a general rule,
I'm, I'm actually always fascinated
by birds like
the golden-cheeked warbler, a migratory
bird that,
for the golden-cheeked anyway,
so I think you already know this.
It's a native Texan.
So, all golden-cheeks, you know,
are born in central Texas.
It's got one of the smallest
breeding ranges of any North
American songbird.
Its tiny.
Most birds span multiple states,
but this one's only in one.
But the thing that really impresses
me about migratory birds is that
they are able to go back
and forth these long distances.
And in the case of the
golden-cheeked, it goes to southern
Mexico, Central America, that's
where it spends its winter, and then
it comes up to breed
in Central America.
And there's really high site
fidelity in terms of like,
you know, where they nest.
And so older birds will come
back to the exact same
territory year after
year after year. Over 90% of them
will return to the exact same spot.
And when I'm out there with
my GPS unit and my compass
and my map and I'm still
trying to figure out where I'm at,
I am just in awe at this little
thing that's like feathers
and bone and weighs ten grams
that is able to do this.
It's just, it's just this miraculous
feat, I think,
you know, to be able to go back and
forth.
And I've heard from the folks on the
wintering grounds, they haven't
banded a lot of birds down there,
but for the very few that they have,
there's only three that I can
remember that they've banded, and
they came back to the same spot back
in the wintering grounds as well.
They're really hard to find on the
wintering grounds because they're
not singing.
But, but
it's a very small sample size.
But still, you know, just the fact
that these birds are able to do that
is just
miraculous.
So, so that's a little bit of
the life history there.
The eat insects.
They depend on mature Ashe junipers.
The peely bark
is required for the nest
that they build, but also it
provides food for them too.
They tend to build their nest
in Ashe junipers too. They're very
cryptic and hard to find.
But yeah, the oaks and the junipers
together just provide
the insects, the caterpillars
and spiders, the beetles, that that
these birds feed on.
Okay. Well, that helps.
And,
and then so the ecological
niche is that
the bird is, is an insectivore
and is, I
guess feeding on the
bugs that would be found on the, the
oaks principally, or also
on the junipers?
Is that right?
It's both.
And it, it kind of progresses
as the season goes on.
Like, um,
the Texas red
oak, um, is a huge
favorite of theirs.
So, they'll kind of start, you
know, the beginning of the southern
nesting season when they first come
back. A lot of times the red oaks
haven't even leafed out. When they
do, they're first leafing out,
that's when the caterpillars attack.
Um, that's why these
birds are so important to keep our
trees healthy. So, they're there to
kind of feed on, you know, at
the beginning of Texas red oak, then
later you've got the live oak
kind of dropping its leaves, um,
and then leafing out again.
And so they'll kind of switch over
to live oak.
And then later when their young
come out, um,
out of the nest, they're feeding
a lot in the juniper at that
point, and which is good
because the junipers
make these little fledglings,
you know, when they first get out of
the nest, um,
they're very cryptic because
they're kind of gray, they're
little and they're just kind of
sitting in these junipers and it's
much harder to find them in
juniper trees than when they're in
oak.
So, so the adults kind
of switch over at that point to
feeding primarily in the oaks.
So, the junipers are
really important for,
you know, again, not only the
nesting material, the nest
substrate, but also for that
food source and camouflage
for the, for the young.
You said ten-gram birds
and they
are pretty clever about camouflaging
themselves in these junipers
in pretty thickety woods, as I
understand it.
How do you go about monitoring
them and locating
and tracking them from
year to year?
So when
I first started
working for the City,
there was a monitoring plan that was
already set up and there
were these hundred-acre plots that
were kind of located in prime
habitat, you know, across
the city, part of the BCP.
Our other partners, like the county,
and I'm trying to think who
else ... there were other people who
also had plots that they were
monitoring too.
But it was spot-mapping without
having the bird color-banded.
And so when I started,
there were biologists saying, "You
know, hey, this biologist found
20 birds on the plot.
The other biologist found ten.
We're trying to figure out who's
right.
And,
I just said, "Well, there's no way
to know unless you color-band them."
And so it
was a little bit of an evolution,
but we gradually
switched over to
color-banding these birds.
And the plots changed
a little bit as well.
But it's essentially, you know,
they're not all 100 acres anymore.
But if you have a
fixed area that
you go in and you color-band,
it's essentially males; every now
and then you catch a female, but
it's usually accidental.
We're really targeting the male.
But you band them
with a unique color combination
that we get from Fort Hood military
reservation. They actually will
issue us like, here's your color
combos that you can use
this year.
And so, by having,
they have like a silver band that
they get from the U.S.
Geological Survey
that has a unique number on it.
And then there's
three color bands that
go on their legs and that
with the different combinations, you
can identify the individuals.
And so now,
you know, the biologists will go
out.
And we also have two biologists to
kind of back each other up in
verifying, you
know, what you're finding on a plot.
But you
go out and you just you know, you
identify the bird, you identify the
color combination, and
it's great having GPS.
You know, that's a big difference
from when I worked for the agency.
But you just, you click a point
every time you see one.
And then by the end of the breeding
season, you have this really nice
map of here's where we've seen
the birds.
And then you can come up with an
estimate, a really reliable
number, of how many birds
are on that plot.
And we have about 15
plots.
And so you're able to say,
"Okay, this is how many birds we
have across these plots, this is
what our density is."
And then we also currently have our
plots set up to where the
habitat, like the height,
the canopy height within each plot,
is comparable to what we see across
the Preserve as a whole,
so that we can just say,
roughly, "This is how many
birds we think we have on
the Preserve overall.
And then we can look at, you
know, whether the population seems
to be increasing or stable
or decreasing over time.
Well, you know, it's intriguing
to me how you
count. I mean, I guess,
you know, we all learn when we're
little kids to count on our fingers
and maybe our toes.
But what you're doing seems
more complicated because you're
going from these 15 test
plots to tens of
thousands of acres and, you know,
the entire range of a bird.
And I guess this
is difficult enough where there
have been controversies
about it. And I was wondering if
you could talk a bit about,
you know, this recent controversy
regarding Doctors Collier
and Morrison and the numbers
that they came up with versus
those that the City felt
more comfortable with.
And,
you know, I guess there's
the whole issue of
how you monitor, how you model,
how you extrapolate.
And maybe you can
try to open that whole bag
of worms, can of worms,
up for us.
Right.
Yeah. I think, you know, the way I
look at ours, is, I mean, ours is
very specific.
It is labor-intensive.
But it's the most accurate
estimate you can get.
Um, and
I think doing point counts,
I mean, we've, we've done point
counts too, which is what the A&M
folks have done and recently
Fish & Wildlife has done as well,
and a lot of people use them.
Um, but
I think you can
use point counts. It's just a really
rapid quick method, but you
have to validate it.
You have to see, because they all
overestimate, the point counts
overestimate. And we know that for,
you know, if you're trying to come
up with a density or abundance.
So if that's your goal is to try
to say how many birds you have,
you really have to get in there and
say, "Okay, here are some people who
are doing intensive monitoring.
They're counting every bird.
You know, they've got them
color-banded. They, you know,
everybody's got a unique ID.
They know where the nests are. They
know how many fledglings.
So use that
intensive data
to validate this rapid
method and just see how much
you're off.
I, I'll just throw out
this, you know, and let
me know if, if this is a good
analogy. But I'm thinking about
like, like the human
census for the United States.
So you do a census and you
go in and you look at every
household and you're counting the
number of people and their ages
and, you know, their occupation and
whatever.
All right, then. That's really
labor-intensive, right?
Um, but,
if you were to do a rapid method,
doing something like a point count,
you would say, "Okay,
well, I'm going to pick
"X" number of points.
I'm going to spread them out across
our cities, primarily
where we got a lot of humans.
And we're going to stand at these
different points and we're going to
stand there for 5 minutes or however
long. Usually it's like anywhere
from 3 minutes to 5 minutes.
And we're going to just, we're going
to listen and we're going to count
the number of humans that we
hear, and how far away are they.
And we don't need that census
anymore. We're just going to use, you know,
these point, point
estimates.
And we're only going to do it once.
And we're mainly going to focus in
on the cities with the highest
densities of people.
And then we're going to extrapolate
it, you know, across the state,
across the country, whatever.
Um, and, you know, I
just say, please try that and see
how accurate it is.
But that's essentially, you
know, what the point counts are
doing. I, I think,
and I don't know if
I explained it well enough, but the
difference, you know, between what
we're doing and this other method is
that you pick a point
and you just stand there and you
listen to how many birds you've got.
And then you extrapolate.
I think that's fine if you want to
look at presence/absence.
I think it's fine if you want to see
relative abundance: you
know, like this site seems to have
more than this other site.
But to actually come up with a
population estimate based on that
is really questionable.
And when we have compared it with
our numbers, we've found that they
really overestimate
and we have some really good
habitat.
What we found is that
they tend to do okay in the
estimates
where the habitat's really good and
the densities are high.
Where they're really problematic
are where the densities are really
low.
And yeah, so we
ended up writing a paper on that
because we thought, "Well, this is
interesting, this is an interesting
phenomenon", because again, we've
used point counts as well,
we've used models to try to predict
how many birds we have, and there
are predictive models.
They're not really estimates.
They are predictions.
So we've found with
the models that we've
paid for and funded,
that they have the same tendency
that all of the models that we've
looked at. Fort Hood has done the
same thing.
Becky Peake at Fort Hood did a
couple of different papers that
found that, you know, Fort Hood has
overestimated what, you
know, the intensive monitoring data
was showing.
So the question is how much?
What we were hoping to do with the
paper that we wrote where we looked
at the A&M paper in addition
to ours, or their model
in addition to our model, was
just encourage people to look at
that phenomenon and say, "What's,
what's going on?
Why is it, why
are they really, really
overestimating the birds in these
areas?"
Well, you know, just as
a layperson looking at this
from the outside, it would seem like
point counts would be tricky
for a bird that's such a specialist,
and that's really sensitive to
the habitat that's available to it.
And then you've got a place like
Austin that's developing so fast,
and the habitat
is changing and probably degrading
in a lot of places.
Is that, is that
a fair concern?
You know, I think it probably would
be a concern for any species.
Yeah. I mean, I am, you know, I've,
I've heard point counts that they
just tend to overestimate,
across the board.
But yeah, you're right.
I mean, for a habitat specialist
like this, um,
you know, especially one that's
really rare,
I, I
would guess that, yeah, it is really
problematic.
My, my goal, like when
we wrote this paper that
ended up being controversial when
it really shouldn't have been,
but, yeah, it was just to kind of
point this out and then just to
say, so we didn't, we
didn't delve into like the "why"
so much. We talked a little bit
about it in the discussion of our
paper of some reasons
why, but it was really to encourage
people, you know, to do
the modeling, to
figure out why, and figure out what
was going on with it.
And so, yeah, so we, we
didn't go into that too much,
but, but when, when we were
writing the paper, we looked at
other studies that had also
found that, you know, point counts
tended to overestimate based
on different, you know, different
factors.
Um, yeah.
So you mentioned a couple of times
that this is a rare bird,
and I guess it's sort of by
definition since it's an endangered
species.
I was curious if you could comment
a little bit about these
genetic studies that you
worked on with Dr. Athrey
and Dr. Moulton.
And, you know,
whether
Dr. Athrey's work, I guess
which is, you know, you've seen some
results. The other is apparently
still pending.
But have you seen any
issues of inbreeding or hybridizing
with this small population of
warbler?
So Dr. Athrey's paper,
the one that published, it was
published, I think, in 2011,
it was really interesting because
he was looking at,
you know, birds.
I think he looked at them in three
different areas in central Texas
and compared
the DNA,
the genetic diversity
at that time, which was probably,
yeah, would have been right before
2011.
But a more current
assessment of the genetic health of
the species with these
museum specimens that were over 100
years old.
And so he was able to look at this a
long time
period to say, "Okay, is there a
difference between, you know,
what the genetic
diversity was back,
you know, a hundred years ago versus
what we saw today?
And he found a significant decline
in genetic diversity
that correlated
with habitat loss and fragmentation.
And also found more
differentiation.
So, the populations were getting
more isolated.
He, I remember
him mentioning inbreeding,
but the main focus of
the paper was this genetic
diversity and genetic
differentiation and
that there had been a decline,
essentially, in the overall genetic
health of the warbler due to
habitat loss and fragmentation.
And so what we're looking at now,
because he was very
focused on - I'm trying to think,
I think he looked at maybe Fort
Hood, Kerr Wildlife Management
Area, and San Antonio,
I think. I'd have to go back and
look at the paper,
but it was a fairly small area.
And what we've done is
collaborated with Dr.
Athrey and Laura Moulton.
Dr. Moulton has collected
over 280 samples
from individuals across the entire
breeding range, including the
northern part where the habitat is
really small and patchy, to
compare to the area to the south
where the patches are much bigger.
And so that's going to be really,
really interesting.
Dr. Athrey is still working on the
sequencing of
the samples, but hopefully
we'll have something.
I'm hoping any day he's going to
call and say, "Okay, we got
everything done and we're ready to
analyze it. And here's what it looks
like."
Well, and I think you
have been explaining how
the genetic changes
seem to correlate with
the habitat decline.
And I was hoping
that this might be a sort of
segue to talk about
what you've learned about the
historical ecology of the
Texas Hill Country and,
you know, maybe touch on some of the
debates that have been had
about the
past extent of grasslands
versus juniper forests
in the Hill Country.
Is that something you could talk
about?
Oh, sure.
Yeah. And it's actually a nice segue
too, just thinking about the
historical ecology,
because Henry Attwater, I'm actually
going to pull out this quote,
Henry Attwater
said back in 1892
that, "the golden-cheeked warblers
are nowhere abundant and only
to be met in the thickest cedar
breaks. As these are fast being
cut and burnt out., The bird
will no doubt become still
more rare.
So, Henry Atwater,
over 100 years ago, was
concerned about
the plight of the species because
there was so much deforestation
going on.
And yeah, just backing up
to how I got interested in the
historical ecology
was when I was working for the U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service, and
again, it was right after the
warbler was listed as endangered.
And I remember being out with,
um, actually there was some
developer and they
were looking out across the
landscape and saying, yeah, all
this juniper is invasive.
You know, this used to be
grasslands.
And I went back and I talked to
Carol Beardmore, who was our lead
for gold-cheeked warblers at the
Fish and Wildlife Office at the
time, she's the one who worked on
the recovery plan, and
I said, "So what's up with
this about all this
grass." And, Carol is the who
introduced me to Dale Whitaker's
book, The Explorer's Texas,
which I would say is my all-time
favorite book.
And so I
got interested in that and then
pulling out of the information kind
of again first-hand, so I think it
goes back to that professor at UT
saying, "You know, don't just let
people spoon-feed you.
You need to go look up everything
yourself."
So, I just spent,
you know,
lots and lots of time over
20-some odd years, just spending
time in the, in the archives,
in the library, you know, the
historical libraries, and
pulling out, you know, historic
accounts, the original eyewitness
accounts, and looking at what people
said first-hand,
pulling out old photographs, looking
at old maps,
anything I could get my hands on.
And then I just kind of compiled
that into a presentation
that items, you know, made into
this kind of a report
that was based on my PowerPoint, but
it just kind of summarizes all the
information. But yeah, the eastern
edge of the Edwards Plateau was
heavily wooded.
And, you know, there's photos that
go back to the 1890s
that show that, so
basically looks like it what it does
today.
And yeah,
as you go farther west, you know,
the western edge of the Edwards
Plateau becomes
more like black-eyed vireo habitat.
It gets more shrubby and
more sparse.
And then you eventually either get
to the Trans-Pecos and you've got
more desert vegetation or the
High Plains where you really have,
that's where your grasslands are
undisputedly, you know, prairie.
Well, and so how, how
has that habitat
changed since, you
know, maybe take as a starting
point, Attwater's
visit in the 1890s,
what he might have seen then,
both the kind of activities then,
to today?
Could you track that?
Yeah. Well, you know.
So, what's the, so
after the Civil War,
when, you know, we
had settlers moving in
and we got
rid of the buffalo and we replaced
them with cattle and sheep
and goats. So, you know, you've got
the agricultural expansion.
Um.
Yeah, you're wanting, you're
wanting it grassy so that those
animals can, can eat.
And so big changes going
on.
And not only with, you know,
the livestock,
but also with the barbed wire
fencing, which was patented in the
1860s,
I think.
And so, for your barbed wire fences,
then, you're clearing all
of this juniper.
So, juniper becomes
like a really important commodity
for, you know, for the fences.
They were shipping it out
to other states, all the way up to
Nebraska for, you know,
for barbed wire fencing,
for telegraph poles, for building
materials (like our house is even
built on juniper piers).
I don't know if it's Ashe juniper,
but it's definitely some kind of
juniper.
Um, so, yeah, you've
got this whole culture of people
that they referred to as,
"cedar choppers", and they even
had a special axe
called the "Kerrville Cedar Axe",
which was meant
specially for cutting down
juniper.
And you can still see those old
hatchet marks when
you go look at, you know,
places that still have junipers.
There's hardly any, I don't know of
any place, where I don't see an old
cedar stump or
some axe marks.
But, but, yeah, for a really
long time, and that started,
I mean, the clearing of juniper
started,
you know, around the time of the
Civil War or even a little bit prior
to that.
And so, I'll have people,
you know, kind of refer to what was
going on in the 1900s.
I'm like, I know, but you're talking
second or third growth at that point
because that was being cut
way back.
There's a great report by
a guy named William Bray.
He actually wrote a couple of
reports and he was a
botanist who worked at the
University of Texas for
a while, but he wrote
about the timber of the Edwards Plateau
and he documents all
this change that's happening.
And then his reports were in 1904.
So, and again, he's got photographs
of the Austin area, some of the
places where we currently work.
And he just, he
talked about the impact that it was
having on the landscape, that
as you cut these trees down,
you've got these steep slopes,
you're losing all of your soil
whenever it rains.
And you have
very sparse vegetation that's coming
back.
And so, that's all the way back in
1904, all
these big changes that are
happening.
And also about the same time,
you know, again, that Attwater was,
you know, talking about concerns
about the golden-cheeked warbler.
Well, so this was, I
guess a
time when these trees were
being cut for themselves,
for,
as you say, telephone poles or piers
or fence posts.
But it sounds like in, in
later years,
you know, maybe
simultaneously, the trees were being
cut for grazing
and then
for development and road
construction. Is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. Definitely
changed over time.
I, I would say, you
know, probably,
up through about the 1930s, 1940s,
the 1950s, we had a big drought
that killed a bunch of trees as
well.
But that was kind of, you know,
sort of the heyday of,
you know, the cattle and the
livestock, you know, the other livestock,
but goats and cows, probably
primarily, I think sheep were early
on. And then later it was more goats
and cattle.
But then after the 1950s
drought,
something happens with the livestock
industry where it didn't seem like
it was quite as profitable.
I'm not sure exactly what happened,
because my focus has always been up
to about 1900.
But there was
regrowth, I guess, of
the forest, and the shrubs
were starting to come back.
And if you look at old aerial
photos, you can see that.
So, say, like 1940,
uh, somewhat wooded, then 1950,
the drought hit.
But 1960, 1970, 1980,
you've got kind of
the woodlands coming back.
And then 1990 hits and then
you start seeing that development.
So yeah, so and
in a lot of places, it's kind of
converting over from agriculture
to development because
it's whatever's profitable, right?
Well. And I guess part of what's
going on aside
from the land
use is that you start
having people occupy
this country
with,
you know, the animals
and the vehicles
that accompany their occupation
there. And I was wondering if you
could speculate at all about,
you know, some of those companion
animals, whether it's feral cats
or dogs.
And if they might have had an impact
on the golden-cheeked warbler.
So, I
haven't witnessed that first-hand.
I'm sure if there was a
big population
of feral cats that they,
if they were releasing them along,
you know, along the boundaries of
warbler habitat.
The thing with the golden-cheek is
that they're, they nest
pretty high up off the ground.
So,
it'd be a lot harder for feral cats
to get to them, except when
they're young, come out of the nest,
they're really vulnerable.
A lot of times they fly to the
ground, they flap around.
I remember when I was out
at Hippie Hollow once because
we used to have black-capped vireos
there.
And there was a guy
who I
don't even know how we found out
about it, but he reported this
little baby bird that
his dog had brought to him, and it
turned out to be a black-capped vireo.
So, yeah, they definitely
can have an impact.
I would say the most vulnerable time
for them is going to be when they
leave the nest, and, you know,
they're kind of flapping, running on
the ground.
They're going to be easy pickings
for just about anything.
Okay. And then I
guess another
factor I'd like to hear your
thoughts about is, is the impact
of the
brown-headed cowbird.
Do you think that they had
a significant effect
on the warblers'
fate?
So not as much
as like the black -capped vireo.
The black-capped vireo, it
was devastating for them, wherever,
wherever
there were brown-headed cowbirds.
Because they,
they pecked the eggs, they put
holes in them.
And those holes tend to sometimes
get run over, you know, overrun with
fire ants. And then they lay their
own eggs in there, too.
So, you know,
there's pretty much a 100%
mortality of the
black-capped vireo young.
And so cowbird
trapping, you know, trying to remove
cowbirds from areas where you've got
black-capped vireos nesting,
actually has been really successful.
Um, there's some problems with it
too, because they also get
non-target birds.
They don't not always just get
brown-headed cowbirds.
But for golden-cheeked warbler,
because the habitat tends to be
closed-canopy forest,
the brown-head cowbirds tend
to lay their eggs and tend to,
you know,
yeah, tend to inhabit more
open areas.
I mean, they moved, they evolved
to kind of move with the, with the
bison.
And so, they're, they're preferring
more open, scrubby-type habitat,
and not in a forest.
And so the golden-cheeked warbler tends to not be
as vulnerable for
that reason, habitat-wise.
But that is a problem with the
fragmentation.
Whenever you do have fragmentation,
you potentially can get birds
like cowbirds,
you know, invading those areas.
But
also, it's been reported
that they can fledge some of their
own young in addition to a cowbird.
I actually watched a brown-headed
cowbird fledge out of a
golden-cheeked nest
one time. And I had been
monitoring this nest for a while
and I could see
little heads in there.
And then at one point, I notice, my
God, I'm only seeing this one head.
And it just seemed like there, you
know, I couldn't figure out what was
going on with the other one.
And then I actually watched it
literally get out of the nest and it
was just this big thing that
kind of towered over his parents.
And he's got orange legs.
He's not cute.
He's got a weird sound.
And, you know, I swear the
parents were embarrassed.
But, but,
that's, yeah, it's, it's kind of
rare, at least in our
area.
And also,
you know, you tend to get
brown-headed cowbirds more where
you've got livestock nearby.
And with the development,
you know, we've seen kind of a shift
of livestock out of this
area.
And so, the cowbirds don't tend to
be as abundant as they were.
I mean, we still see them in some
places, but
not nearly in the numbers that we
had, like in the '80s,
when we had all the
ranches and stuff.
Well, you talked
about the
changes in land use
and in the habitat and
a little about the, I
guess domestic animals and
about the brown-headed cowbirds.
Is there any other kind of
issue that may be in play
that would be responsible
for the warblers' decline over
the past number of generations?
Yeah. It's really just habitat loss,
you know, and you can't, you can't
get it back. I mean, these trees
grow, like all
of the trees, but
Ashe junipers grow really, really
slowly. And one
common denominator in the habitat
is that you tend to have these
really, really old trees.
I've had people ask me like, do
I know of examples of old-growth
forests? And no,
I don't know of any places that
haven't been cut, but
I do know places where we have
old-growth trees and
that's where we tend to have our
golden-cheeks, and this is where
you've got these really, really old
trees, and you may have younger
trees around them, but
it takes a really, really long time.
We've measured it. Independently,
Warren Pulich documented this.
William Bray
sort of inadvertently documented it
by showing a picture of regrowth
juniper.
And then we done some
measurements. And then a researcher
on the Balcones Canyonlands National
Wildlife Refuge, also looked
at diameter growth rates
of Ashe juniper, and
that, on average, it
grows about an inch per decade,
expanding. So if you've got
a ten-inch tree in diameter,
you're looking at about 100 years
old.
That's a really long time, you
know, for
habitat to grow back and
then and then that's just the tree,
that's not like all of the other
things that go along, you know,
within that, that ecosystem.
So yeah.
So once you lose it, I mean, you
lose an old-growth forest, or old-growth trees,
it's very, very hard to get back.
So that's really the main, the main
thing.
But then I also ought to say, I
mean, I think people's perceptions,
you know, the kind of the
myth of Ashe juniper, and the
vilification of juniper,
and people just cutting it because
they think it's bad.
Um, that's, that's another
big threat. But again, it goes back
to that habitat loss.
Well. And why do you think
a tree would ever be considered
a hero or a villain or have any
kind of,
sort of stature like that.
It's, it's a plant.
Oh, yeah. You mean, like, why do
people hate on the Ashe juniper so
much?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I've always
wondered about this. What's up with this? Do we have
this issue anywhere else in the
world, you know, where there's this one tree that
that everybody hates?
Um.
I don't know. I don't really have an
answer to that.
Um, except that it's, it's
not great for cows.
I don't know.
Yeah, it's kind
of beyond me.
But you know, I remember
in the, I took a class at UT
in the early '80s, and I remember
hearing that, you know, this was all
grass. This is all invasive.
Um, and then in the '90s,
it just seemed like it picked up,
you know, and just
everybody was on that bandwagon at
that point.
So it seemed like that vilification
really picked up in the
in the '90s and onward.
So, you know, whether it's
development or agriculture,
I pick a
question, but it's everything from,
you know, it sucks up water.
It's a water hog.
It's a fire risk.
You know, I I've heard people from
Oklahoma tell me that
it increases mosquitoes
and ticks. And
I'd like to see those data.
Um.
But yeah, I know.
It's just like I look at it
completely different.
It's, it's, it's the foundation
of our ecosystem.
It's the pioneer and the climax
species.
It creates the soil, it provides
the shade.
And, you know, we talk about
plants needing light and always
trying to reach for the light.
But now, try that in
August, try that right now.
Who wants to be out in the light
right now?
It's fairly hot out there.
So, shade is really so
important here.
And we've done studies on oak
seedlings, and if you don't have
shade, they're all dead by
the end of August because it's just
too frigging hot.
So yeah, plants and other things,
you know, and what else
can survive in that besides
something like juniper? It provides,
like the perfect dappled light.
Um.
Yeah.
We're looking into the mycorrhizal
fungi and some other things right
now, potentially as well,
you know, that might be
benefiting the plant community
as a whole.
But yeah, I just see so many
benefits and,
hopefully, I don't know, we'll see
if we can get that information out
there.
Talk about the underdog.
Yes. Yes.
Well, one last question
about the, I guess, the
risk that the warbler faces
in its habitat.
I've heard people say that
the warbler is part of this
group of wood
warblers that tend to be
in cooler
environments than the golden-cheeked warbler.
And that it, the golden-cheeked, is sort
of an outlier and that
the increasing heat
that we're seeing is, is
putting a stress on the bird
and it also is the droughts that
we've been having a tough on the
juniper itself.
Do you see that as a factor or is
that hard to isolate?
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
No, that's huge.
Climate change is huge.
And this season has been
especially bad.
I've been monitoring golden-cheeks
since 2008.
I've never seen a year like this
year, where it's hot, dry, windy
- windy every single day.
And yeah, we,
we were noticing golden-cheek
females
actually standing on the rim of
their nests, holding their wings out
over the nestlings.
I don't, I'm sure they've done that
in the past, but
that's something that a lot of our
biologists were noticing this year.
I'm sure it makes it harder for them
to find food for themselves,
for the young, to make that trip
back to Central America.
They've got to get these, you know,
lots of fat reserves to make that
trip down there.
Um, so
yeah, and then the impact it has
on the plant community
itself and, yeah, with
the tree mortality.
I was noticing
dead trees, even some
of the really big old trees,
this year on some of
the plots that I was working on.
So no, climate change is another
huge, huge factor.
But I think also, you know, with
that, you know, if you look back
in time historically,
our species
just tends to want to clear
stuff out.
So, the response to that is like,
oh, these are fire risks.
So, you get more and more clearing.
And, and I think
that just exacerbates the problem.
You know, I'm
not a meteorologist, but
hopefully somebody at some point
will look into, you know, the role
of our forests with
the hydrologic cycle and
rain and climate.
But we definitely know it cool
things off and
you've got higher humidity,
and when you lose your forests,
it's drying things out and making
it, you know, hotter,
drier.
And then we know about carbon
sequestration.
So, that's an easy one too.
Okay.
Well, thanks for walking us through
this.
So, this sort of gives us
the background on the decline
of the bird, and
I guess it'd be worth
talking a little bit about how that
was recognized and
sort of formally
endorsed in the listing
under the Endangered Species Act.
Can you tell us a little bit about
that process?
You know, whether I don't know how
far back you could go, you know,
Pulich's study back in '76, or the
Category 2 species listing in
1982.
What can you tell us about the
listing of the warbler?
It's been a while since I've read
Pulich. I mean, you know, back
in the '80s, that was like the
Bible, right?
That was like definitive,
at the time - you know, great
little book.
It's been a while since I've read
it. I don't know about why
the warbler got on the original
list. There were a ton of species
that, you know, went on the list
originally.
Maybe it went on that way.
I don't know.
But, but, yeah,
it was a Category 2 for a long time.
And in my understanding, and this
again is going to be peripherally,
is that
EarthFirst!, Tim Jones, in particular,
put together a petition to
the Fish and Wildlife Service, and
was just noting, like
the permanent habitat loss
now. You know, agriculture is one
thing. You know, you have to wait a
long time for things to come back.
But development, it's like, that's
it.
We're done. You know, there's no
more habitat, right?
And so, so,
Tim, I, I never actually saw
his petition, but he
submitted it for the Fish and
Wildlife Service in early 1990,
I believe, and it's just documented.
I remember talking to the biologists
who worked on it and she said
he was just showing, you know,
all of these different places that
we were going to lose.
And, you know,
losing habitat in western Travis
County in particular, I think was
kind of the focus of it.
And so Fish and Wildlife
got that. And because the
development was happening,
you know, was proposed like right
away, they went
ahead and emergency listed it.
So, so the way
the petition works is
Fish and Wildlife get the petition.
They will evaluate it if,
if they determine that the risk is
so imminent that the species
itself is at risk, they can
opt to do this emergency listing.
And then that's followed by,
I don't know how many times that
that's happened, but then that's
followed by,
they'll do a 90-day finding,
they'll do a 12-month finding, and
then they'll do a final rule.
And all of that happened, I think,
within the span of a year.
I think the final rule even came
out, I need to go back
and look, but it was either the
end of 1990 or early
1991, which is also
really unusual that
things can happen that quickly.
[Maybe...
No, distracting.]
So that's really what I what I know
about that process
was that, yes, it was a petition
and that it was compelling
enough that the species was
losing habitat
so quickly and so imminently
that the decision was made to
do the emergency listing.
Well, I think one
thing that you mentioned which sort
of caught my attention was
that, if I heard you right,
was that the changes
in land use were unlike
those with agriculture where,
you know, one decade you might
be clearing brush,
but then the next year you might,
the next decade you might have
some of the juniper and oaks
growing, but that the habitat
changes with development were
permanent.
Right.
It may be slow following
agriculture, but eventually it
will happen.
And again, if they have old
trees, if it's close to an area
that's occupied habitat,
you know, there are a lot of things
that can play into that where the
habitat can come back, um,
you know, eventually.
It might take a little while, but,
but it, you know, eventually it can
come back.
And, yeah,
with development, it's gone.
Yeah.
Okay. Well,
so maybe we can move forward so
that, as
folks recognized
the bird is under threat and it was
listed, then I understand
that one of the responses was to try
to set up some
preserve land, and
one of those, of course, was the Balcones Canyonlands
Preserve, where you ...
[Nope, I can't hear you David.]
[Yeah. I'm here. I can hear you.]
[I mean, yeah, I
just had a really long gap where I
could not hear you.]
Okay, well,
let me just sort of repeat
what I think you might have missed,
not that it's any great, valuable
poetry, but,
I was just going to say that you've
sort of set up the
segue that the species is
listed and
then as a response, there were
efforts to set habitat
aside for it, to protect it.
And one of those tracts
that was set aside
is the Balcones Canyonlands
Preserve, where you
have served as a biologist since
2007.
And I was hoping that you
could talk about the origins
of the Preserve and
you know what you've seen out there
in the 15 years you've
been there?
Yeah. So that's, that's where,
you know, and actually the origins
started back in the late '80s
where they had, you know, biologists
and politicians, it's actually
amazing that it happened in Texas.
But, um,
but yeah, they were the ones that
kind of got it all started and
worked with the Fish and Wildlife
Service, you know,
issues this, Fish and Wildlife
issues this regional habitat
conservation plan, this regional
permit, to cover
incidental take of not only the
warbler but the vireo and cave
invertebrates, and, you know, there
were a couple of plants in there as
well.
And then that permit was issued in
1996, and it
was predicated upon having
this preserve system
that was at least, you know, 30,000
acres or more.
Originally, when the
scientific advisory committee
said that, you know, they
were taking a look at how much area
they needed to protect all of these
species, they recommended
125,000 acres.
And I remember being in the meeting
when they presented that to the
politicians, and it didn't go
over particularly well.
And so what they ended up
doing was that's where the
Balcones Canyonlands National Wildlife Refuge,
came in with, okay,
the City of Austin and
Travis County would do this
30,000-acre
preserve and
the refuge would do their
acquisition (boundaries are
around 40,000, I think).
Even so, those two things
together, so, you know, about half
of what the scientific advisory
committee had actually recommended.
Part of the reason that they
recommended something as big as that
was to allow a buffer
between
the preserve and the development.
And so since I've been
with the Fish and Wildlife Service,
I mean Fish and Wildlife, since I've
been with the Balcones Canyonlands
Preserve, we've
just had this tremendous growth
and development, you know, into
western Travis County.
And we've actually got aerial
photos that kind of document that,
and show it from 1996,
2006, 2016.
And so I
kind of watched the transition
from, you know, preserve
that's fairly, you know,
intact with the surrounding
forest, to
essentially an urban preserve, you
know, where we're getting surrounded
more and more.
And so with that, you know, you
see more trespass.
You get, you know,
people that are worried about fire
that are cutting trees down along
the boundaries.
And that was the reason why the
scientific advisory committee wanted
this buffer, because they knew
things like that would happen, you
know, along that wildland
/ urban interface.
And so, we don't have that
that buffer, essentially.
But, I mean,
the good part about the preserve
system was that, you know,
we protected the best habitat
within Travis County.
We're also losing,
you know, it allows the loss
of over 70% of the habitat
in Travis County.
But in exchange for protecting,
you know, the best.
And so it's quite a privilege
and an honor to try to, to try
to do that, and to try to make
our preserve system the best it can
be, given
all the things happening around it.
Well, so
I understand that you have been
involved with efforts
to manage
the preserve in a way that
maybe addresses the risk of invasive
species by taking some of
those out and then also
doing some native planning,
working together with the
Conservation Corps, and TreeFolks,
and I assume others.
Can you talk a little bit about some
of those habitat management
efforts that you've been involved
with?
Yeah. Yeah.
So one of the things I, you know,
when I first started working for
the, I'll just
BCP for short,
I was just kind of struck with, it
just seems like in central Texas,
the land management focuses on
three things, and it's all
destructive.
It's either cutting stuff down,
it's burning it, or it's herbiciding
it, or a combination
of the three.
And what I was asking our
biologists to look at is like, what
about regenerative?
Why can't we build up?
Let's grow things like, you
know, let's, let's expand.
And, um,
so we've done a little
bit of that. I mean, I guess,
everything kind of starts slow.
But, but yeah, it's like
clearing juniper is like a panacea.
And we get volunteers to come
out, you know, and they'll ask us,
"When are you going to start thinning out your
junipers?" And so, "Well, they play
a really important role."
So and as you plant trees, you know,
you'll understand the value of
having something that actually
creates soil and where you have
something that you know that you can
actually plant in.
And so, yeah, we've been
experimenting with that.
We're going to start writing
a report and that's actually
next week, I'm hoping that we start
working on that, where we talk
about regenerative restoration.
Like creating healthy soil.
We've got a contract with a Ph.D.
graduate from Northern Arizona
University who was
a land manager and fire ecologist,
and went to get her Ph.D.
on mycorrhizal fungi.
And I don't know if you know about
the role of mycorrhizal fungi, but
they're in the soil and they
essentially extend the root system
of plants, and they get into
the parts of the soil in the rocks
that the plant roots can't get to.
And then they pull nutrients
out, they pull
water out, and
they transfer it.
You know, basically, they provide it
to not just one individual
plant, but to a community of plants.
And so these mycorrhizal
fungi are just playing a huge role
in ecosystem health
and well-being, and
we know so little about it.
So she's starting to
help us with that.
We're going to be looking at
soil biology and the role of
mycorrhizal fungi in
our communities and
then applying that for restoration
and land management.
But yeah, so that's, that's
basically it.
We, we, we've also focused
on what we call hyperlocal
seed collecting where we collect
seeds from parts of our preserve
that maybe have more diversity.
And we take those seed,
we have a vendor that helps us treat
them if needed.
Some trees some things need to be
either scarified or stratified.
And so, you know, our
vendor either grows out a subset, or
gives us the seeds where we plant
them directly in the field.
So we're trying this a lot of
different things that increase, you
know, plant diversity
and just increase the health of our
forests.
And also focusing on places
that you've had
so much
just degradation in the past, either
from cutting, burning, whatever,
you've got erosion, you know,
steep slopes, you've lost the soil.
How do you bring those areas back?
So we've been experimenting in those
places, too.
So hopefully writing,
you know, what we've learned so far
anyway into a little report.
Well, that's really wonderful.
It sounds like you are planning
for the future and trying to
learn from the past.
Oh, yeah.
So what I've
been sort of struck by is that
while we've been talking about the
golden-cheeked warbler, this
preserve system that you
work at is also
home to a number of
other species that are very rare
and special - the
bracted twistflower, the bone cave
harvestman, the Jollyville
Plateau salamander, the Barton's
Springs salamander, the Austin blind
salamander,
and of course, the black-capped
vireo.
And I was wondering
how the challenges that
the warbler faces
are shared with
these other creatures, or if there
are very distinct problems
facing them.
Right.
Well, it depends on who you
ask.
Um, based on my experience,
like you mentioned bracted twistflower,
which has been proposed for
listing as endangered.
Um, one of the threats that's
mentioned to the bracted
twistflower is Ashe juniper,
um, which
is counter to everything that we
see. And some of the largest
populations of this plant that
remain are on the Balcones
Canyonlands Preserve.
And we've looked at historical
areas, aerial photographs
and found that where
we have bracted twistflowers,
where we have these populations,
is in areas where it's had
the least amount of disturbance, at
least from what you can see from an
aerial photo.
You know, it's been continuous
forest - juniper/oak forest
- since 1940, which is the oldest
aerials we have.
And so that indicates to me that
juniper is not a
threat. I don't, I don't quite
understand how that how they
derive that.
But regardless, that's what's in the
proposed rule. It may come out into
the final rule as well.
And so, I don't see a
conflict there. I see it as being,
yeah, I think that
the warbler and the twistflower
actually have the same threat, which
is, you know, development.
And, you know,
in the case of the bracted
twistflower, it's also
recreation.
You know, people like trampling
it from, you know, hiking or biking
or whatever.
And deer herbivory as well.
For the cave invertebrates, it
is the same thing.
You need a healthy forest canopy cover.
That helps provide
food resources for cave crickets,
which forage
on the surface outside of the cave,
and then they go and they bring
nutrients back into the care.
They're a real keystone spaces
for cave ecosystem's health.
And then also keep the environment
of the cave cooler and more moist.
And so, you've got more
cave drips of water
and whatever. You know, you've got
stable environmental
conditions with the forest
cover.
And I think that's been shown pretty
well.
And
salamanders, Jollyville Plateau
salamanders: the part of the
species' range where we've got the
most abundances of
Jollyvillle Plateaus salamanders
also coincides with where you have
most of your golden-cheeked warbler
habitat.
So those are like,
yeah,
so, you know, protecting
golden-cheeked warbler habitat also
protects, you know, salamander
habitat and water quality
and quantity.
And, one other thing - yeah,
there's some really rare plants that
only occur in the forest as well.
The only species that's different
is the black-capped vireo and
the vireo, really, the heart of its
range is farther west.
It ranges down into Mexico, goes up
through central Texas, up into
Oklahoma. It's much more scrubby.
And where you do have black-cappeds,
you know, on the eastern edge of the
plateau is where you have some sort
of disturbance - whether it's
mechanical, you know, burning
or climate change, I think
is probably affecting it as well.
Where you've got tree mortality, you
know, you've got shrubs and things
that are growing back up underneath
that.
And so we may actually be seeing an
increase in black-cappeds from that.
So, you know, that's really
the only... but we've had
black-cappeds and golden-cheekeds
occupying the same space as well.
So I haven't seen that as being
like a huge threat.
Most of the preserve system is
managed for forests.
And then
there's a smaller area that's
managed for black-capped vireo.
Well, speaking of the vireo,
I think that was one of the first
rare species you worked with.
And I think
you once said that you started
monitoring them 35
years ago, about
the time it was listed as
endangered.
Can you tell us a little bit about
your first encounters with the bird?
Yeah. So I was working
for David Steed
and, oh
yeah, my first encounter with it:
because I was new to birding
and I had a couple of colleagues
who were working for David as well,
and they sent me off down to me to
Comanche Trail, not too far
from the Oasis restaurant, um,
like between... and that was back
when we could, you know, we'd walk
quickly across 620, but you could at
least walk across it.
And we had vireo
territories on both sides of 620,
like spanning 620.
But anyway, my job was to walk down
Comanche Trail and see if I could
find any black-capped vireos.
Well, it was typical warbler habitat
- closed-canopy forest for the most
part.
And I came back and I said,
"Guys, I found so many
black-cappeds, I can't, I can't
count them, would you want to come
out with me and, you know, just help
me kind of sort out how many we
have?" And they just looked at me
and said, "Oh, yeah, she's new, she
doesn't know what she's talking
about."
And so it turned out, I mean, you
know, we had about seven, I
think.
But it wasn't typical habitat.
But they had, you know, a surveyor
had gone through there and made some
survey cuts.
And so even though it
was closed canopy, it was mostly
warbler habitat, you had
along these survey cuts, you had
habitat coming back.
And so that was kind of my first
introduction was
that area.
And then I worked on
what we call today, "The Vireo
Preserve", which is next to Wild
Basin.
And that's where I met my husband,
Jim O'Donnell. I noticed you had
something about the wedding rings on
there.
And so, yeah, so that,
that was the other place that I went
out and helped Jim band.
He was banding, at
this point been banding
black-cappeds since, I think like
'84.
And then we actually watched them
disappear.
The Vireo Preserve Wild Basin
patch
had development
basically encroaching all around it.
Plus, again, it was kind of on the
eastern edge of the range and the
habitat at that point was kind of
growing up out of vireo
habitat, kind of going back toward
more of golden-cheeked warbler habitat.
Um, and so we ended up, you know,
basically watching
that species disappear from
30, 35 territories
down to nothing.
So within a very short time.
It happened very, very quickly too.
They were gone basically by the end
of
the '80s.
Well. And what was it that
was
hurting the vireos.
But I guess it was this development
that you're witnessing or were there
other
problems that you could pin
down?
Yeah, it was, you know, for,
you know, it just kind of depends on
where you're at.
But for that
one area, the vireos of Wild Basin,
it was probably multiple factors,
but I would say development
being a big factor.
And then again, the habitat kind of
growing up out of suitability.
But there's other places
where I've seen typical habitat
and we do still have vireos there.
Um, so, you know,
it's, it's hard to know for sure,
but um, you know, when
they widened 620, you know, we
used to have black-capped vireos
all up and down 620.
We had them up and down City Park
Road.
And yeah, as, as
development encroached we
kind of lost those.
But, but other areas, you know,
they, it's a small population
again. We're the eastern edge of the
range. So, um,
you know, when the Fish and Wildlife
de-listed the bird, they didn't even
consider our,
our area. They were looking at Fort
Hood. And so, like, so we have maybe
20 birds compared
to Fort Hood and I forget
how many, but they've got
hundreds, you know,
of birds.
It's not ... I'm trying to remember
how many they have,
but yeah. They are a lot more
abundant out farther west.
Well,
so I think you mentioned
earlier that there
was a great deal of fanfare, of
course, about the golden-cheeked
warbler listings,
but for some reason the vireo
brought less attention.
Is that true?
What was that about?
I don't know.
That's a really good question
because, you know, when I was
working for David, the cave
invertebrates that were listed in '88,
and I'm trying to remember the date.
And the vireo was posted
in '87, I think.
And when I was working for
David in the '80s, I would have
people occasionally say, "What do
you do? What are you working for?"
And we'd tell them we're looking for
a black-capped vireo.
And I remember one wise guy saying
that, "is that a round-headed guy or a pointy-headed guy?"
But they just thought it was funny.
And ooh, yeah, when
the warbler got listed,
yeah, it was, it was, there
was definitely a lot of
concern. I don't know, I, you
know, I'm not a politician,
so I don't really know what was
going on behind that.
And then, of course, with the
salamander listings
it got even more political.
So.
Um. Yeah, that's a good question.
Well.
So, it seems like politics
has come back to the
golden-cheeked warbler.
What is it, about seven years ago?
In 2015, the Texas
Public Policy Foundation filed
an Endangered Species Act
petition to
delist the warbler,
and the General Land Office joined
suit in 2017.
And you know it's come back and
forth between the Service
and the courts.
But I was curious if you could
comment on why the bird
would seek to be delisted,
given the problems with the habitat
change and its
range.
Yeah. So, I, you know,
I actually try to stay out of
politics.
Um, I try to stay focused on science
and not mix the two.
That was actually, one
of my supervisors at Fish and
Wildlife was telling us that
he would deal with the politics, and
he wanted us to only focus on the
science. And I, I've kind of always
stuck with that.
And so I don't know the politics
behind it.
I do have a tiny
one, when I mentioned the paper that
we wrote where we
were comparing, we
looked at three
different density models that
were predicting warbler abundance,
including two of ours, and then the
A&M model.
And when we wrote that paper, which
was the first paper I had ever
authored myself, where I was the
lead author on it,
when it got accepted for
publication,
it was in June of 2015
and it was like ten days later
that petition was submitted.
And I remember calling the editor
of the Journal of
Field Ornithology, and I said, "So
just so you know, it could
get kind of interesting," because
that just, for me, came out of left
field.
I really felt like at the time
when we did that paper that
things had calmed down enough.
Um.
You know, that this was, this was
actually a good time to actually
have a discussion about science,
and, you know what,
you know, using these kind of rapid
methods, these point count methods,
to try to predict
abundance.
I thought, it's a good time to have
a conversation because things seemed
to be pretty calm.
So, I had no idea that that was
coming.
So, I don't know
the why of it.
But the Fish and Wildlife
Service has just finished the
status review like the year
before, the summer before.
So, it came right after
that and presented the same
information that Fish and Wildlife
had already reviewed.
So, in their
subsequent 90-day finding
on the petition, they said,
if I understand correctly,
the Fish and Wildlife basically
said, "We've already look at this
information.
You didn't provide anything else."
And if I understand
the plaintiff's argument, they're
saying, "That's
not the standard.
The standard is substantive
information.
And there's a bunch of information
that we submitted.
I don't care if you've already
looked at it. You need to look at it
again and do a positive 90-day
finding and automatically go into
the 12-month finding.".
So I understand kind of what they're
going for.
But, um, yeah,
I, and I think
Fish and Wildlife did a negative 90-day finding
in 2016 and another one last
year, I think in July of last year,
when the appellate court said,
you've got to look at it again.
And I think they're appealing it.
I think they appealed it again,
right, this year?
And I don't know the status.
Yeah. It seems to be a
hot issue.
This poor
little bird is being
bounced around the courts.
Well.
Well, and not only that, but
like the Bone Cave harvestman is
another one.
Um, you know, and they're
trying to argue on
interstate commerce that
you can't list the species
that doesn't cross state
lines.
And it's something along those
lines.
Anyway, yeah.
When you look back on this,
you know,
what do you think about
your efforts on behalf of
golden-cheeked warbler and the
black-capped vireo? What really
stands out?
On my efforts?
Yeah. And what you've seen,
I mean, how things have changed
or, stayed the same.
Is there anything you want to add?
Yeah, I, I think in terms of like
my contribution,
the only thing that I
know how to provide is as
close to the truth as we can get.
Um, and so,
although when we first
started looking at abundance
of, of warblers on our preserve,
it really was just
to comply with our permit and,
you know, just to be able to inform
management.
I had no idea,
no idea, that it would ever
become controversial
or become what it, what it has
become.
But I am glad that we have
really good, solid data
to be able to look
at these other estimates, or
predictions, and say
how realistic are those?
You know, how do they compare with
what we have?
Oh, you're predicting 30
times more than what we've got.
There seems to be a problem.
Um. So that.
I think that's all stuff that I
would never have been able to
foresee.
But I'm glad that we have it.
I'm disappointed that we have
to have it, and have to be able to
defend like that.
But,
yeah, I,
I would say that that's one of the
major, it's definitely
been a surprise anyway.
And the rest of it seems like, yeah,
just watching things change from a
really rural, you know, where you've
got cattle and
you're walking across roads where
now, you know,
you would not be safe,
where everything's developed.
So, you know, so, so definitely
watching the transformation of
western Travis County.
Well, it is intriguing
to hear you talk about this because
it seems like you
have been a real witness
to this dramatic change,
not just for the bird, but for
the whole area that
it, and you, call
home, and
so I
think it's really wonderful for you
to have shared that with
us, something we can all
relate to.
And unless you have something
else you'd like to mention,
I'm inclined
to let you go.
You've been very patient with this
whole process.
I hope that the recording all works
out okay, that it doesn't,
you know,
that you don't have these silent
gaps in there.
I think we'll be good.
And thank you very much
for bearing with some of the
technical glitches there.
They sort of go with the territory.
Oh, I know.
Totally.
So thank you again for your patience
and interest in this.
And I hope that
our paths cross in the future.
It's been fun getting to know you.
Yeah.
Thank you, David.
I appreciate it.
So fun.
Take care of yourself. Hope your
voice feels better and stronger
soon.
And I hope your daughter does,
you know, heals soon, too.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
All right. You stay safe, be well. Bye now.
Bye.

In collections

Conservation History Association of Texas, Texas Fauna Project records

Details

Title: Lisa O'Donnell oral history
Identifier: camh-dob-020369
Other IDs: GoldenCheekedWarbler_ODonnell_Lisa_AustinTX_30June2022_Reel4117_Full-LengthAudio.mp3
Description: Oral history of Lisa O'Donnell conducted by David Todd on June 30, 2022. O'Donnell is an endangered species biologist who has worked for DLS Associates, a private consultant, and also for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the City of Austin. In this interview, she discusses her work studying and helping restore rare Hill Country wildlife, including the golden-cheeked warbler and black-capped vireo.
Creator: Todd, David, 1959-
Contributor: O'Donnell, Lisa (Biologist)
Conservation History Association of Texas
Date: 2022-06-30
Date Created: 2022-06-30
Resource: Conservation History Association of Texas, Texas Fauna Project records
Subject Name: O'Donnell, Lisa (Biologist)
Subject Topic: Golden-cheeked warbler
Animals
Subject Geographic: Texas--Austin
Physical Genre: Oral histories
Interviews
Extent: 01:53:58
Collection Strength: Texas History
Use and Reproduction: Please contact the Briscoe Center for further information regarding the use of this material.